I read a few posts last night re engine oil for the 156. All very good info/comments and probably leading me to Castrol Edge Sport 10W-60 for my 2.0 TwinSpark. I did ask a well respected alfa club member and their recommendation was for HPR30 (which is totally mineral based and is 20W-60)...... maybe this was because I have sprints in mind.
As I intend to use the car for sprints I am interested in any further comment on what performance oil others use.
no. if this is a daily driver, consult the manual... 10w-40 API SL ACEA A3 is the spec'd oil.
u do not want to go thicker, thinner is almost always better for road use...
this differs for JTS and GTA v6s, probably due to higher compression and therefore pistons that expand more... leading to excessive oil consumption with the 10w-40.... which is still spec'd for the 2.5l v6...
so the upshot is, if your TS is not eating oil currently, stick to manufacturer recommended.
many oils are suitable based on the above spec.
i always perfer full synths. Amsoil 10w-40 is currently in my 2.5l v6 which is suitable for your TS. Good suitable oils include motul, royal purple, redline etc...
cheaper full synth that u can pick up at any decent auto store includes mobil1 and penrite etc... just check the label!
The Castrol Edge 10-60 fully synthetic oil would be a bit thick for a twin spark, but is ideal for JTS, the twin sparks use 10-40, you could use Mobil 1, 5-50, fully synthetic which is not quite right for twin spark, i use Mobil 1 in the winter in my JTS, be carefull there are different grades of Mobil 1 and Castrol edge, there are 10-30 viscositys as well, just wait until Supercheap and Autobahn go to war over their oils, they try to outsell each other with oil for bragging rights and for a big discount next year, off the oil companies for selling the most oils, last year they had Mobil 1 5-50 for $50 for 5 litres, Colin.
So Michaeljc, I have the same issue as you have. The TwinSpark spec dictates a 10w40 fully synthetic, but go to your standard Repco outlet and you won't find any options to choose from. I currently use the Castrol 10W60 as well but after a disappointing result on the Alfa Dyno day (about 10HP less than what it should be), I'm looking for any options to improve the top-end performance. So if you don't want to spend $120.00 on AGIP or any other Italian equivalent oils, Shell do a 5W40 as do (I believe) Mobil.
I'd like to put it out there, what are other TS drivers using which is available off the shelf and conform to the specification?
I was at Supercheap the other day and i noticed a new Penrite 10-40 Fully Synthetic, this type of Penrite i had never seen before, and i immediatly thought, i wonder if the twin spark owners know about this oil, they most likely sell it at Repco and Autobahn as well, if i remember rightly it was priced at $50 for 5 litres, Colin.
what do you mean there isn't any 10w-40 oil?
it's probably the most common rating of oil...
1) does your TS consume any oil now?
2) how much will you pay per litre for oil?
then i can give you specific recommendations...
full synth, albeit API group III, is mobil1 0w-40... great oil for a TS that doesn't drink oil... ~$13/l ... for one that does a little you'd go to 10w-40.. maybe a bit thicker..
mobil1 0-40 is something like 75cSt cold, and 14 hot...
we know that the selenia spec'd for the TS has a hot rating of around 15cSt @ 100C... many oils are bang on this range when hot, but some oils have thinner centi-stoke rating cold (40C)... that is what you want..,
again u are limited if you eat oil... but u'd otherwise go as thin as you can... - oil lubrication works by fluid flow - nothing more... the thinner the fluid the more flow = hydrodynamic lubrication of the bearings which are nothing more than half shells of metal... thick oil is a lot more damaging to a motor during start up.... basically alfa reckons these bearings and engine works well @ 14cSt oil.... u need to get there as soon as possible!!!
most 10w-60 oils have a cold start near 160-180cSt!! NO! operational is probably a tad thick @ 25cSt too!
something easily attainable and not too expensive is pentrite sin 0 (0w-50) - 100 cold and 18-19 hot.... nice middle ground.... around $65 for 5 litres at supercheap...
then if feeling rich something like redline is nice in 10w-40.. ($23-24/l)....
if you don't want expensive synth... mineral oil is ok... shell helix and castrol magnatec comes in 10w-40 too.... a quick search reveals helix HX7 and magnatec complies w/ API SM and ACEA A3... these can usually be had on special around $25-30 per 5 liters! obviously these oils are suitable for cars spec'd for SM and A3 or earlier standards
the API ratings relate to standards, usually of oil additives to oil... detergents, zinc etc... so match that up as well... i gave you the required ones above... API is us standards for oil, ACEA is euro... the sm rating that came after sl in like 04 cut down on zinc for example cos it was found in its common compound (ZDP) to cut down the life of cats.... iin 04 many cars had as many as 4 cats... so.... down the zinc content went...
for older cars, or built up modified engines without cats... u'd want the zinc = royal purple - still going with ZDP content... does not comply w/ API SM...
HTH give a basic understanding of oil...
Wow Wankski, that took a couple of days to digest. I clearly have no understanding of oils, and when I Google search HTH, it gave me nothing.
So my engine doesn't use any oil, so what you're saying is use a 0w40 (which to me is different to 10w40, but let's not go there). I'd be very happy with Mobil and definitely synthetic, but when the guy at Repco looked at the Mobil oil catalogue under Alfa 156 TS last Saturday, there was just a blank line - go figure! Looking on his shelf, the only 10w40 options were mineral based and no mention on the label of "performance" so they won't touch the TS!!
Thanks for the info - I'll order that Mobil 1 then. If you can tell me what HTH stands for, I'll go away and do a bit of study...
i run the penrite 10-40 in the manual 156 and castrol edge 10-50 in the selespeed both are twin spark, have not had a problem with either oil and both are listed to be use with these cars
Hey Bix, i was at the Preston Supercheap last Saturday and they had 10-40 fully synthetic Penrite, i looked across the road at the Repco store and i didn't see it there, not to say they don't stock it though, there are as you know different grades of Mobil 1, if i remember rightly 0-30 and 5-50, i use 5-50 in the JTS during winter as its a bit thinner than the summer oil i use, Castrol edge 10-60, the listings that i have seen for twin sparks and JTS's recomend fully Synthetic oils and not mineral oil, Colin.
Quote from: bix on June 27, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
Wow Wankski, that took a couple of days to digest. I clearly have no understanding of oils, and when I Google search HTH, it gave me nothing.
So my engine doesn't use any oil, so what you're saying is use a 0w40 (which to me is different to 10w40, but let's not go there). I'd be very happy with Mobil and definitely synthetic, but when the guy at Repco looked at the Mobil oil catalogue under Alfa 156 TS last Saturday, there was just a blank line - go figure! Looking on his shelf, the only 10w40 options were mineral based and no mention on the label of "performance" so they won't touch the TS!!
Thanks for the info - I'll order that Mobil 1 then. If you can tell me what HTH stands for, I'll go away and do a bit of study...
lol.... HTH = hope that helps.... no technical meaning at all..
if your TS doesn't drink, then yes... mobil1 0w-40 is a good choice... if you are feeling flush, I use amsoil @ $15/l. Amsoil is a top quality group IV oil (PAO based, not hydrocracked III like mobil1, castrol edge, selenia racing etc)
the amsoil i use is 10w-40.... or around 100cSt at 40C and 15cSt @ 100C
the good thing is that the TS uses only around 4 litres, my v6, 6!!
personally i don't think ~$60 is a lot for top oil... + maybe $30 for a genuine filter.. all up pretty cheap..
semi-synth and mineral are not 'bad', but typically have lower HSHT rating and lower viscosity index etc... if you change regularly and use the correct grade, its all good.... the HX7 i saw on special for like $22 for 5 litres!
synthetics with a superior viscosity index means they can make the widely varying stuff like 0w-50 (penrite sin0), whereas minerals typically do not have this 'feature'...
if you want to read a long and boring post at ausalfa on the topic, check this thread out!
http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4278
HTH !! hehe
Thanks Colin, Dehne and Wankski for the great info. I'll see what my local store can get in. Wankski, where do you get Amsoil from?
I'm also going to invest in a vacuum oil extractor which I saw on another posting, making extraction a sinch - what a great idea! The wife will be pleased with no more overflow onto the concrete...
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=126&item=67070&intAbsolutePage= (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=126&item=67070&intAbsolutePage=)
About 20 years ago a Alfa club member sold Amsoil fom a shop in Dandenong, he was Roger Allgood, have not seen him for years, was a really nice bloke, i used to buy Amsoil from him, but it was a bit far to go, the problem with Vacumn oil extractors, is that they don't get all the rubbish out of the bottom of the sump, thats why the sump plug is at the bottom of the sump, so that you can completely drain all the oil out, some of the less reputable service centres use vacumn oil extractors as they don't have to remove undertrays and get under the car to remove the sump plug, you wouldn't know until your oil got really contaminated, and you should always drain the oil when its hot and runny, to remove all the gunk, instead of buying a vacumn oil extractor, buy an extra large drain pan, that they use for automatic transmissions, and put some newspapers under the car to catch the wayward oil,AND most importantly, change the oil when your wife goes out, Colin.
yes, i have one - if you turn to the last pages of the ausalfa page i referred to you can see i did a test...
good for half-assed attempts to replenish oil mid-interval between going to the dealer for a proper service....
good for 159 owners who have 20k service intervals, big under-trays and the need to reset service light....
but for a proper oil job, sump it is!
amsoil - i get mine delivered from performance LUB...
you can easily order through ebay tho...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Amsoil-oil-AMO10w40-/110560011352?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19bde3e458#ht_2486wt_905
Roger Allgood is still around, he goes to MSCA meetings more so now. Not sure if he still handles Amsoil.
Yep, completely agree guys. Vacuum pump would be used for the easy mid-year oil replacement with the 12 month requiring oil filter replacement as well - so a full sump plug jobby.
By the way, on the topic of sump oil sludge, GianCarlo advised at the tech night that they recommend using a bottle of "engine oil cleaner" which is poured in just before the oil is replaced, engine is run for 10 odd minutes and this cleans all the sludge up. Do others use this stuff?
yes, as listed on my ausalfa thread i was about to use the amsoil equivalent - but held off as i didn't know what was in the engine prior...
i'm high fiving myself for that decision as the stuff that came out of the filter was ridiculous.... no use thinning that stuff out with solvent and throwing it around the engine to clog things up...
i'm gunna go thru a few rounds of lighter oil (10w40 cf the 10w-70 in there prior) to clean up and move on most of it before flushing... tappets sounding better already but needs a flush i reckon.
I have heard that some Castrol oils have a lot of detergent in them, and they are good at cleaning out dirty engines, but not so good for lubricating, and that Penrite has very little detergent, but lots of oil, but the lack of cleansing agents will turn your engine black, i have heard this yarn several times over the years, old wives tail or true?, Colin.
Thanks for all the links and info. After reading many of the threads, I decided to go with the Amsoil 10W-40 based on Wankski's maximise "fluid flow" mantra.
There are a number of fully synth oils whose specs line up similarly. Namely Redline & Motul 300v, but I believe the Amsoil may align better to the Selenia 20k VI rating @ 100 degrees (14-15cst) and has high zinc content for reduced wear (although this may reduce the catalytic life).
I just took the car for a spin with the new oil. It may be all psychological, but I swear the engine runs quieter in comparison to the heavier oil that was in there.
As an aside, while changing the oil on the TwinSpark I discovered that you don't actually need to remove the engine guard to take the sump plug out (this was a first for me, although I'm sure anyone more observant than me know this). The sump plug is actually just shy of where the guard starts, so doing the oil change now takes 10 mins as opposed to over 30 mins (with a lot of messing around). In addition to that, I can also remove the oil filter from reaching down in the engine bay (just watch those HOT extractors. HAPPY DAYS!! Looks like the Pela oil extractor I bought is no longer needed.
Thanks for the good information Bix, i know you can change the oil without removing the undertray, but the oil filters i use are slightly larger than normal, bigger = better - right?, and i can't get a normal filter wrench on it, so i have to put a strap type filter wrench on it to get it off, my undertray was a pain to get off, because it had a combination of torx, cap screws and countersunk screws, so i needed 3 different tools to remove it, so i changed them to cap screws, so now i can get the undertray on and off in about 10 minutes total, and its only once a year for a filter change, so its no big deal, Colin.
Colin,
I just hand-tighten the oil filter (ensuring a smear of oil on the filter's rubber gasket), and it doesn't seem to leak or come loose.
I only do up the filter by hand, but after 12 months the rubber gasket hardens up, and makes the oil filter hard to remove, and i need to be able to look it in the eye while removing it, so i don't do something stupid, like crack the casting, and while i am under there i can admire that good Italian engineering!, and check for oil leaks, Colin.