Hey guys,
Interested in people's experiences when it comes to manual vs power steering racks. The rack in my 75 is starting to become a bit of a headache. I believe the pump is leaking and it's very oily around the pump itself and under the car which requires regular degreasing to pass scruitneering... Seeing as the car is rarely driven on the road and only really used in club events I'm wondering whether it's worth installing a manual alfetta rack as it will reduce weight, improve feel and save me the headache of having to sort out the power rack at this stage. I understand that the steering will become much heavier with fat bars which I plan to add fairly soon and there will also be a slight decrease in the speed of the rack. What are your thoughts guys? At the moment its running standard bars and springs and its a nose heavy 3L.
cheers
I've got a manualised rack in my 2.5 75 which I find quite acceptable, even considering it's a daily driver. It has a smaller aftermarket steering wheel as well.
I don't think torsion bar size will contribute to steering weight. More likely to contribute would be castor, tyre size, wheel offset.
i was running power steering in my 90 race car until i had a spin and it decided to do a seal, i did not bother fixing it and left all bits in and run it as is (i did take the belt off) and i think it is better with out as you feel what the car is doing better now and for road use in my road 90 has had no ps for 6-7 years and i livewith it can be a little heavy at low speed
Cheers guys. I've got a rack out of a 80s gtv sitting in the shed so its a matter of swapping it over. Probably been asked to death but are all alfetta racks the same in terms of their speed? All 3.5 turns lock to lock as opposed to the 3.2 for a 75 power rack? Not that much of an issue but Id prefer a slightly faster rack if possible.
In my experience with installing fat bars on my mates gtv, the steering was much heavier. We did do a quick string line allignment though.
Quotethere will also be a slight decrease in the speed of the rack.
My experience is exactly the opposite. Manual racks offer faster response, infinitely better feel and greater accuracy as a result, less horsepower wastage, less maintenace issues and for racing puposes, weight savings. How many more reasons do you want?
You can leave the rack in place, remove the pump and belt to save weight. If the rack does not leak, leave the fluid reservoir in place to lubricate the rack by gravity. Otherwise you could pull it apart and grease fill it and use it as a typical manual rack with original ratio that you are used to. It will be heavier of course at very low speeds but on the move, its not relevant.
The final bonus is that you will get rid of those chicken wing arms... ;D
Hi All
deano you said you have an 80's rack to replace your ps rack
before you pull the power steering rack out of your car check that the splines on the uni jointed section are the same as the gtv rack
If they are different you might be able to swap the pinion between the racks [i havent tried to do it just a thought] but i know the splines are different between 75/90 ps racks and gtv manual racks
Cheers Glen
Deano
All Australian 116's Alfetta, guiletta,and gtv series racks were made by ZF and all are 3.5 lock to lock
GTV6 racks are different as they use a steering damper so the rack housing is slightly different same 3.5 lock to lock
Glen
Cheers guys for all the help.
I think I'll pull apart my normal rack and grease fill it in the next few weeks when I get time and pop it back in. I'll let you know how it all goes. ;D
I've got a spanner I made to undo the rack halves you can borrow if you like.
Deano
Quotebefore you pull the power steering rack out of your car check that the splines on the uni jointed section are the same as the gtv rack
This is good advice from Sportiva because the splines are not the same. The simplest option for you is the one you propose to take. There are a couple of others involving more money and complexity. Stay with your plan.
I am doing a 160 to 116 conversion right now and I can tell you oils ain't oils.. :)
I'm pulling the engine out of Ironsides soon, and I'm thinking I'll probably do the same thing while I have the chance. I really don't want to lose the P/S since it's very handy when tootling round the pits or at a servo or whatever, with a 320mm steering wheel; but I've had a couple of issues with the P/S before (see my report on the 6 hour in C&S a few years ago) and can imagine I'll have a few more in the future, so may as well make it as simple and reliable as possible while it's easy to do.
Dammit, I love that power steering, probably the second best (old) power system I've experienced, after a Porsche 928.
I have to agree. They are a good rack. I liked it enough to custom fit one to my wife's Alfetta (which I used too ) using a 164 pump. She wanted to get rid of the car as she was having problems parking it but the conversion did the trick. For a road car they do the job well. For the track I would prefer a manual rack to save power and weight and keep the sharp feedback and response.
Here's a couple of pics of the install..
Quote from: MD on May 18, 2010, 08:03:25 AM
I have to agree. They are a good rack.
Are you talking about my avatar again?
Hahaa.
There's rumours about your rack and your G string... ;D
An old thread, but thought I'd update my findings.
While I had the engine out I took out my rack and filled it with gear-oil, with two equalising tubes, and deleted all PS gear. I only got a few laps at Sandown on Sunday but the steering felt fantastic. To be honest it's no different at high speed since the PS was a fantastic system which doesn't offer any assistance at speed anyway, but in the very low speed stuff it's just a tiny bit better in terms of feel. Obviously it's a lot harder to turn the wheel at parking speed, especially since I'm on race rubber and with a 320mm steering wheel, but it's not ridiculously hard, probably no worse than my standard 33 S1 at parking speed. I'd been expecting it to be very hard to turn at low speed but it's perfectly acceptable, I imagine it would be just fine with a standard wheel.
I had really wanted to keep the PS, but I knew that something would start leaking eventually, and since it's purely a track car I wanted to make it as simple as possible, and any weight off that front end is always welcome. But with the results, if I ever have the engine out of a road car in the future I will be doing exactly the same thing. I want to avoid at all costs having to work on the steering rack while the engine is in situ.
sheldon
the mother inlaw has a blue 90 (have not put any pics up of it) she is 62 yrs old and it has no power steering but has the orig wheel and she does not have any probs parking it,
i prefer have no p/s in the racecar you seem to have a better feel for what is going on, i still have the p/s rack in i just took all the other stuff out
Hi dehne
My power steering did fail at one point (split HP hose) and I recall it being quite tough to turn the wheel at parking speed. The way I have it presently is a lot easier than that.
PS you didn't PM me your address so I could send you a beer, so I drank it. Bottling next batch next week, so I'll keep one for you.
sorry to go of topic
did you get ur fuel pump prob sorted, as i have a complete tank sitting out the side and im not planing on using it so if you need parts from it let me know
S'all good, it was the pump that lifts up to the surge tank. I was able to bypass the surge tank and go back to a standard set-up for the day. I filled him to the brim and had a spare 20 litre tank of gas just in case, 'cos I always found that anything under a half-tank would cause surge (but that should be a lot better now with the stiffer suspension). I'm just gonna get another of the little pumps that lift to the surge tank, but I'm gonna check this one first to see why it failed, because it really shouldn't. The only thing I can think of so far is that it didn't like sitting around for 6 months doing nothing, but surely that would be normal for a lot of racecars?
Cheers anyway
I read somewhere that two racks were used in Alfettas. The ZF which is unmodifiable and a Spica unit that could be opened up and modified with a kit for 2.5 turns. Possibly the Spica racks never came to Aus but one may be available overseas if you're keen.
Cheers
I can see the logic for 2.5 turns for a rally car but for the track I dont think it's such a priority. Makes the job of Peter Brock/Jim Richards "smooth" that much harder to do for the odd time that you might actually rely on it. If you are doing 56's around Lakeside ( I want to know who your mechanic is immediately :) )then yes get one pronto. If you are 10 seconds off that pace, forget it. Spend bucks on other improvments.
Quote from: MD on September 23, 2010, 07:18:58 PM
If you are doing 56's around Lakeside ( I want to know who your mechanic is immediately :) )then yes get one pronto. If you are 10 seconds off that pace, forget it. Spend bucks on other improvments.
Lakeside? I'm not sure we run there. Whereabouts in Victoria is that then mate?
Hahhaa, ya dag. :)
Advice for all lost Kiwis :
to get to Lakeside, take pit lane and get onto the main straight newly named the Hume. Take a sharp left at the Dakabin railway station. Watch out for ding batts and drop bears along the way.
You can read about it here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeside_International_Raceway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeside_International_Raceway)
If you nod off by Altona, try going to Lakeside in your lounge room instead:
http://www.virtualr.net/lakeside-park-2010-released/ (http://www.virtualr.net/lakeside-park-2010-released/)
Quote from: MD on September 24, 2010, 07:14:26 AM
If you nod off by Altona, try going to Lakeside in your lounge room instead:
http://www.virtualr.net/lakeside-park-2010-released/ (http://www.virtualr.net/lakeside-park-2010-released/)
Nice one, I'll give it a go on GT Legends then. Fun track?
Hey guys,
I finally got organised and went up to winton on the weekend to try out the new suspension and the steering. Very happy with the way the car behaves now. The lack of understeer will take some getting used to.
The steering however is another matter. In theory it should be heavy at slow speeds and fine at speed. My steering is just as heavy parking as it is at 60 or 100 km/h. I'm not sure whats going on there. The only time the feeling changes is when I drive on different surfaces. The rack in the car came out of a TS and all I did was block off the pipes and left the pipe attached to the supply to allow it to breath. I dont have the return open which could be part of the problem. The rest of the pipes are sealed and there is a breather pipe between the boots. I also put graphite grease on the splines and poured half a cup of ps fluid into one of the boots before I sealed it all up. The best way to explain what it feels like is for anyone who has a ford/commodore, go jump in the car with it off and try and turn the wheel. Thats what it feels like all the time regardless of the speed. I really struggled with it at winton. I was fighting the car the entire time. Especially through the sweeper and the tits. I had a few sideways moments and really struggled to get the opposite lock on and off again. As a result, come decemeber my original PS rack will be rebuilt and back in the car. The only thing I can think of that is causing the problem is the fact that the rack was in my mates car originally and he drove around for a year or so with no fluid in the rack after the pump failed so it could just be failing now. At the time, I decided to put this rack in my car because I didnt want to destroy my original rack thinking I might need it in the future if I get bigger slicks on the car.
Sheldon, Id like to have a go at Ironsides steering to see what its like. Have a go in my car and see what you think also, I'll bring it down to Brunos one night next week.
cheers
My offer still stands if you want a hand to convert your spare rack.
Scott
Cheers scott, I'm probably going to just spend the money and chuck the power steering back in. I know it works and even though it had a bit of a wierd feel in it, I'm sure that that will be sorted once the rack is rebuilt. I'm going to send it off to prestige power steering in decemeber and they will linish the shaft and put a seal kit through it. I've also had some spacers knocked up for that rack to limit the amount of lock due to the fact when I get full lock, the rims hit the sway bar on the inside and knock the wheel weights off. I drove up to winton wobbling all the way. I got them rebalanced up there. My pump was also leaking so I'll have to get that sorted out with a seal kit. Once its in there with new hoses/seals etc, it shouldnt give me much trouble. And it'll make life easier in the future when the car is running 16 by 8 inch rims
cheers
Hey Deano
This is just going to be a track car though isn't it? And you'll be towing it anyway? If that's the case, I would highly recommend not putting the PS back in. It's more weight, and it's always going to leak again at some point.
It sounds like there is something seriously wrong with your current one though. You need to have two balance lines as far as I know, you only mention one? Attached a pic of mine for reference.
Happy for you to have a go in mine, I just need to get my exhaust sorted first and get some new boots on it after melting one of them last week, maybe towards the end of this week. I think once you try mine you won't want to go back to PS, I'll let you know when it's ready.
Actually, I think maybe there are two different types? Attached a pic of Greg Gordons conversion, the rack is slightly different. Note he has two equalising tubes. Mine has effectively only one in the rack, and then the one between the boots. Do you have one on the rack, or just between the boots? Even standard PS racks have the equalising tube don't they? (these really are new to me)
Deano stick with the ps mate, tis' the 21st century after all lol and theres a reason that our cars with modern mod cons can do similar times to the group A cars of 20 years ago with "old school" thinking. P.S WILL ALWAYS BE FASTER!
Viva le revolution'!
Deano, there's definitely something wrong with what you've got. No PS in my daily driver for the last 3 years and I'm still waiting for the massive guns.
Sheldon I think the red line is the communication between the boots, if you look at the pic of mine it looks the same as Gregs except the housing on the end of the rack at the left has been rotated 90 degrees so the rack boot balance port is at the top. Is your boot balance line actually connected to the boots?
If you pull the rack apart and pull out the main seal you don't need any balance lines (apart from the rack boot balance line)
Scott
From what I understand there are two power steering racks. The first is in the earlier 75TS, 2.5 and the 90. It has the balance lines and the rack itself is a little thinner I believe. Thats what I have in the car at the moment. Only one balance line is open which is what I did last thursday trying to solve the problem. The other lines are sealed. I cant get to them without jacking the engine up with is something I dont have time for at the moment. The other rack is slightly thicker and is internally balanced in some way. Thats what was fitted to the 75 3.0 and it'll most likely be rebuilt and find its way back into the car before PI in december. It looks like thats the one in greg gordans pic
Sheldon, It'll be interesting to compare the steering. It cant stay the way it is at the moment. The weight difference isnt really worth worrying about in my mind. Maybe 15 kilos which I can deal with. An angle grinder can get a hell of a lot more weight out of the car. If its worth it for feel, I may consider risking another night of misery under the car on jack stands.
David, I think its the way to go in the long run. I never had properly functioning steering in my car. The power rack felt like it was starting to fail which is why I ditched it. Now I miss it.
Another intersting thing is my cars lack of straight line speed. Compared to last year, the car felt so much slower. I didnt even reach the rev limiter on third down the straight. Maybe that crash involving the sump earlier this year knocked the gate open and all the horses ran away... I'm going to be busy this summer. But all in all, I'm really happy with the car at the moment.
If anybody is contemplating a typical Alfa track car with RWD and under 3 litres without using massive slicks, do this test before you make your mind up whether to install manual or power steering.
In a quiet street or abandoned car park, move at 50-60kph straight ahead. With the steering wheel at the 12 o'clock position, as quick as you can, move it between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock and back to 12 o'clock again as if you are swerving to avoid another car that has perhaps dived infront of you.
Do this test with power a assisted RWD car and preferably the same ( or similar )car with a manual rack.If you are doing the manoeuvre fast enough you should see a big difference between the cars how far they each deviate from the straight ahead direction and ultimately whether you managed to avoid a timely contact with the imaginary car in front or not.
In this context, the difference in rack performance is like chalk and cheese.
Quote from: scott.venables on September 26, 2010, 09:58:08 PM
Deano, there's definitely something wrong with what you've got. No PS in my daily driver for the last 3 years and I'm still waiting for the massive guns.
Sheldon I think the red line is the communication between the boots, if you look at the pic of mine it looks the same as Gregs except the housing on the end of the rack at the left has been rotated 90 degrees so the rack boot balance port is at the top. Is your boot balance line actually connected to the boots?
If you pull the rack apart and pull out the main seal you don't need any balance lines (apart from the rack boot balance line)
Scott
All of this talk about non power steering conversion has me thinking about the same for my car. Is anybody running large caster angles, wide wheel (8" with 215/225 width tyres) with enough offset to take up most of the 75 flared wheel arches?
An old thread but thought I'd share the steering rack swap job for posterity, plus I have some questions (RHD 1991 75TS). Old rack was leaking, put Lucas stop leak in, it got better but then catastrophically failed while parking (on the stop, bypass mode?). I took the belt off the pump and drove on for several months. I was given a spare rack when I bought the car that needed rebuilding. Got that done so decided to have a go at it this weekend. Removal needed loosening of the RH engine mount and jacking the engine up as much as possible to get the rack out the RHS. Once removed I found the rack differed slightly from my rebuilt replacement! Very close, but the replacement did not have the plastic equalising tube (?) from the pinion area to the opposite end (original rack 7830 955 117..1736230768 vs. rebuilt rack 7830 955 107..0391150485). I can't find where this alternative rack came from, yet, maybe an earlier model going by the lower number? Is it internally equalised like Deano aid above? Anyway, I put it in being an optimist! (no trouble to change back, really.....). Refitting was opposite of removal, lower the engine, do everything up, fill with oil, bleed (do you need to?) and start engine, turn wheel several times to burp it - and it seems to work. But, when driving it seems to be vague and wanders a bit. Maybe it still has air in it, maybe my eyeball wheel alignment is the culprit, but I'm out of daylight and energy for today (job was done on the shed floor with jack stands, about 7 hours all up).
So, can someone advise me where this replacement rack came from/source vehicle?
thanks.
Ha, Lucas destroyed my old rack just like that. They refunded me for the cost of the fluid though.
Sounds like the same rack I pulled from both of my 3lt 75's. No external balance line, it's all internal. Can check numbers when I get home if it's bugging you...
Eyeball wheel alignment won't work out well... You'll need to go get that sorted out or learn how to string line the car if you want to DIY.
Did you refit it and rerun the PS or convert it to a manual rack?
Yes, proper alignment is on the cards, just ran out of time. I kept the PS as I have 205/45-16 wheels and smaller steering wheel, plus my wife drives it. With just the pump fan belt off I found it good to drive apart from tight manoeuvring. If it was solely my drive I'd go manual with a more standard diameter steering wheel. If you couldcheck the numbers that might fill in some gaps, but don't stress it if it is a trouble jazig. thanks.
Just wondering if this non-assisted rack will fit a 75 3.0?
https://www.okp.de/xtc2/75/Milano/50-Chassis/Steering/Short-exchange-steering-rack-2-25-turns-Alfetta/Giulietta/75::23779.html
Any one have experiance with the OKP product?
Not cheap!!! Just a design excercise at the moment - looking at repairing or replacing a slightly leaking power assisted rack.
So you're thinking of gutting the new unit and transferring it to the old P/S unit to get the 2.25 turns?
2.25 turns! That's a full turn reduction compared to a PS rack.
It'd be good to know more about it.
Quite amazing as I was thinking about this very same thing today. :o
It will fit just fine, the only modification needed is to move the drivers seat to the other side of the car and flip the dash board over with all the pedals etc... other wise a straight swap!
I have contacted OKP requesting they advise if a RHD version is available.
Looking at feasibility of doing away with PS.
OKP confirm LHD only!
I manualised my TS rack. Took off the punp, all the kibes, capped the ports and greased the bar. On is 2nd racing season and no probs at all. Gives great feedback and accuracy. Love it.!
Hey Colin,
I have a different opinion 9 years later having originally asked the question and doing it. I now think converting a power rack to a manual one is probably the biggest waste of time and money you can pump into a 75.
If your car is a late 3.0 it'll have the thicker and internally equalised rack so take it out, take to prestige power steering in Thomastown, spend the $600 to get it rebuilt and chuck it back in. Heat is what kills them so a bigger cooler for track work gives them a longer life.
If your pump is crap and you're getting the slight loss of assistance on quick direction changes get it rebuilt or lose the aircon and run a 164 pump which is a bit of dicking around I'm told.
In terms of feel I think we need to come to terms with the fact that a modern power 997 911 rack puts even the manual alfetta rack to shame in terms of feel. It's not the cars strong point and never will be. The manual 3.2 rack made my 3.0 feel like a 1965 mustang to drive. I think it's something we need to deal with but can be improved with other mods etc. A manual alfetta rack is better than a power 3.2 per rack so if you want better feel it's best to deal with the 3.6 turns.
There are so many other areas to invest money to improve a 75 such as some horse power given a slightly modified 3.0 with a ts box is only golf gti quick if that in a straight line. With 175-180 atw makes them quick enough by modern standards! Exhaust, front brakes, uprights, shorter gearing etc etc. Pet hate for me is a loose isostatic mechanism but each to their own!
Cheers
Dean
In this day and age of CNC machines, coming up with a suitable right hand drive, power steering equipped, faster ratio steering rack should be very doable.
Or maybe we could fudge something together???
So given the speed increase (2.2 turns instead of 4 turns(!) for the non-power steering rack. 3.25 turns for the power steering rack) that the OKP supplied rackand pinion has, I'd guess that there is sufficient room inside the pinion housing to accommodate a significantly larger diameter pinion.
So to get improvements and keep costs down, maybe a pinion from another rack could be found?
Some previous lookage showed that some/most/all Commodore steering racks were made by ZF.
Earlier (atleast to the VS Dunnydores) had what looked like, pretty long steering arms (something that MUST be kept in mind when comparing steering racks!). So maaaaaaaaaybe the pinion out of a Commodore rack could provide a suitable increase in pinion diameter and fit into the Alfa housing???
As a comparison, the steering arms on an R32 Skyline are about half as long as the Alfa's steering arms, but the Skyline would have (going by memory here......from an S13 Silvia...........) 2.5 turns or less, lock to lock. So while the Skyline and Silvia had fewer turns lock to lock than the Alfa, because of the shorter steering arms, the actual gear ratio inside the Alfa's steering rack would be higher (Well, actually it'd be LOWER! Basically the Alfa's rack would provide more rack movement per turn) than the Nissan's!).
Now getting a larger diameter pinion into the housing obviously isn't going to work with the stadard rack in there.
So I was thinking maybe, juuuuuuuuust MAYBE, new bushes could be made with an offset in them to lower the standard rack inside the housing.
If this could be done, it'd keep the cost of the whole thing down substatially.
This would probably introduce some bumpsteer into the steering, but that's fixable.
Again, lowering the original steering rack inside the housing via offset bushes is a MAYBE.
The other, more obvious solution, is to have a new rack produced with the teeth machined deeper into the rack shaft.
Given that car manufacturers build to a price rather than a recipe, starting with a higher quality piece of material rather than trying to machine the original Alfa rack to suit, would be a good idea.
Too many unknowns to walk that path.
So that raises an important question: What material to make these parts from?
4140 alloy steel would seems like a decent choice, but more input would be great.
If both the rack and the pinion were made from the same material, would that cause problem (gauling)?
So who has a disassembled steering rack that they could take some up close and personal piccies of?
Who else can chime in with helpful input?
Increasing the steeing response is a very doable thing for these cars. Doing it and doing it well without spending a fortune, is the challenge.
Hi Deano,
Thanks for the heads up. I'll give Prestige Power Steering a call.
Hi Duk,
Although I'd like to keep the 75 as original as possible, installing a quicker / low ratio steering rack may be unavoidable. I'll contact Prestige Power Steering and mabey other "experts" in this field and look at what could be installed in place of the Alfa / ZF rack.
Playing around with bump steer is low on the list, however as bending the steering arm will shorten their effictive length its possible this may be enough to increase the mechanical gain of the steeriing system to what I'd like.