Hi Guys
Quick questions etc. I am planning to get the wheels on the GTV6 restored at some stage. I spoke to Retro Wheels in Sydney who are recommended by Simmons.
They sounded good, i thought the price was reasonable (around $880 set of 4 for strip, repaint, polish, repair and new bolts) - has anyone used these guys before.
Catch ya
Shane
When I was strying to figure out the torque spec for the screws, Simmons recommended I let The Mag Wheel Centre in Richmond do it. http://www.magwheelcentre.com.au/ (http://www.magwheelcentre.com.au/) (for liability issues I guess)
I got the torque spec from the Mag Wheel Centre and did it myself. IMHO, $880 sounds like too much, considering what they're probably worth. If you want you could save some money by pulling them apart, polishing the rims, and then take it all to a business to paint the centres and reassemble them.
It's probably the best thing I did in terms of my cars appearance.
Scott
(http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/attachments/alfetta-gtv6-1975-1986/69826d1181727457-anyone-have-set-these-wheels-i-am-chasing-set-simmons.jpg)
Hi.
I used a company called New Wave Wheels in Heidleburg Victoria to straighten my 20 Spoke...
That are used by BMW & MERC etc for prestige cars.
I cant remember what they charged/quoted, but it was under $200 a wheel to strighten & paint.
A cheaper option if you just need a repaint is get a panelbeater to spray and then bake.
I had a guy do it for $70 w wheel (just paint).
Cheers
just wondering what was the torque spec as i have a set i am going to do
Shane,
Have a look at a Advanced Alloys in Moorabbin (www.advancedalloys.com.au). They specialise in wheel repairs inc Simmons, and have some spares available.
They can re-roll if necessary
Spoke to them recently about a set of V5's that were on ebay
(By the way, if you want to part with them, let me know!!)
Regards
RL
Quote from: scott.venables on May 04, 2009, 02:03:27 PM
When I was strying to figure out the torque spec for the screws, Simmons recommended I let The Mag Wheel Centre in Richmond do it. http://www.magwheelcentre.com.au/ (http://www.magwheelcentre.com.au/) (for liability issues I guess)
I got the torque spec from the Mag Wheel Centre and did it myself. IMHO, $880 sounds like too much, considering what they're probably worth. If you want you could save some money by pulling them apart, polishing the rims, and then take it all to a business to paint the centres and reassemble them.
It's probably the best thing I did in terms of my cars appearance.
Scott
(http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/attachments/alfetta-gtv6-1975-1986/69826d1181727457-anyone-have-set-these-wheels-i-am-chasing-set-simmons.jpg)
Scott they look fantastic i got the same rims still cant belive how good yours come up....
Ive got this Rusty looking stuff on the sillver lip of the alloy,do u know anything i can use to get that off?
hey Paul...
yeh The rims are really letting down the car...Ill give that ago this weekend...Thanks for the tips.
Quote from: paul edwards on July 29, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
Hi Karlo
If your wheels are that bad, then you need to get stuck into them with a strong detergent and a
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Windows/Doors/Product-Information/Products/Abrasives/Hand-Pad/. l wouldn't spend money on mag wheel magic cleaning spray type bottles, they do work but when you have rusty stains on the allow, you need to really scrub that, and all the other crap off.
When scrubbed clean hit them with some Autoglem metal polish (from AutoBarn) and they will look as good as new, and stay that way, It will take a bit, probably 30min per wheel, but well worth it.
http://www.autoglym.com/engb/product-proddetail.asp?v06VQ=GH&Range=1
Cheers Paul
Hi Paul....got the Autoglem from autobarn but havin trouble getting the 3m abravsive pads.. any idea were i can pick em up from or a substitute?
cheers karl
Hey Paul...
Yeh i bought the Autoglem wheel cleaner as well.....
thanks for ur help again.ill post some before and after picks if it goes well.. :-\
Cheers karlo
with my v4's and fr16 simmons wheels i simple took them apart. gave the rims a good polish using autosole and a buffing wheel. painted the centers on the v4's charcol grey and polished the centers on the fr16's. then got new bolts and lock tight nuts put em back together and good as new! and cost me nothing as i already had everything ;D
Yeh, I did the same to set of 2piece V4 Simmons about 10 years ago. At the time Simmons were reluctant to give out the torque settings, with great persistence I finally got the torque settings from the Simmons rep( I wish I wrote the settings down). I guess you need common sense when you are re-assembling and tightening up the allen bolts.
You need to tell the person painting the centre's , not to paint the back face of the centre, when you tighten up the wheel the paint could break off and loosen the allen bolt.
John
someone here has got to know the settings
Quote from: John A Pucak on August 02, 2010, 06:39:36 PM
Yeh, I did the same to set of 2piece V4 Simmons about 10 years ago. At the time Simmons were reluctant to give out the torque settings, with great persistence I finally got the torque settings from the Simmons rep( I wish I wrote the settings down). I guess you need common sense when you are re-assembling and tightening up the allen bolts.
You need to tell the person painting the centre's , not to paint the back face of the centre, when you tighten up the wheel the paint could break off and loosen the allen bolt.
John
Thats interesting, Ive heard that before about Simmons being reluctant to specify torques settings. You could work out a torque spec range based on the specifications of the allen key bolt, size, grade, pitch etc.
Common sense when tightening is a good thing i.e tighten bolts in a cross sequence and torque in stages
say 30% then 60% then 100% to ensure the centre is uniformly tightened to the rim. Do Simmons have a tightening procedure ?
QuoteCommon sense when tightening is a good thing i.e tighten bolts in a cross sequence and torque in stages
say 30% then 60% then 100% to ensure the centre is uniformly tightened to the rim. Do Simmons have a tightening procedure
You would assume it would be like tightening a head . ie a criss cross pattern
Yeah I have 24Nm written down, also from the mag wheel centre. My wheels have 20 M8 (x1.25 I presume) socket head cap screws, the newer Simmons wheels use something else. I don't know if this would make any difference. I would also advise against using stainless screws.
I think I put a very light smear of grease on the threads, then assembled and torqued the screws and last put a thin smear of neutral cure (non acid) in the seam between the 2 rim halves. Tyre pressure forces the bead of silicone into the seam, so you really don't need much.
Cheers
One other thing, take care when using scotchbrite pads on aluminium, make sure they're well used beforehand or you'll scratch the rims.
Quote from: paul edwards on August 03, 2010, 05:11:57 PM
RE: Simmons
re assemble of rims
Every thing must be METICULOUSLY clean on the rim flanges - bolt threads and nuts. l use the Motortech Brake cleaner from Repco it's cheep but it work really well. A small drop of Locktite if you like but it's not totally necessary if every thing is tight any way.
Use a non acidic silicon on the rim flanges for a air tight seal, and let it set for 24hrs before fitting tyres
Cheers Paul
Sorry for coming across a bit pedantic but it's a big safety deal, just want to get it total wright. l wouldn't like to be on 3 and a half wheels in my Alfa :o :o :o any where or any one else for that.
Loktite is a very good idea. The actual thread contact between a male and female thread in a tightened bolt can be alarmingly low and Loktite fills these gaps and also prevent rust from forming. Loktite also lubricates the threads during assembly and helps to provide a truer torque reading.
It sounds like an advert, but it works ;D
Quote from: paul edwards on July 29, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
Hi Karlo
If your wheels are that bad, then you need to get stuck into them with a strong detergent and a
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Windows/Doors/Product-Information/Products/Abrasives/Hand-Pad/. l wouldn't spend money on mag wheel magic cleaning spray type bottles, they do work but when you have rusty stains on the allow, you need to really scrub that, and all the other crap off.
When scrubbed clean hit them with some Autoglem metal polish (from AutoBarn) and they will look as good as new, and stay that way, It will take a bit, probably 30min per wheel, but well worth it.
http://www.autoglym.com/engb/product-proddetail.asp?v06VQ=GH&Range=1
Cheers Paul
Paul...
Thanks for the tip of with the Autoglem...took me 2 days...but i think i got there...(see pic :) )
the glove tip came in handy but made the mistake of taken them off and now suffering the consequnces...
but its all worth it...
thanks again karlo
Quote from: paul edwards on August 08, 2010, 06:34:32 PM
Hi Karlo
Great job buddy, hope to see your car up in real life some day. Have you seen the "Le Tour De North East" - ALPINE DRIVE...... That we are putting on? You are welcome to join in.
Cheers Paul
Thanks paul.....yehh well im hopeing to be @ the club meeting nxt Wednesday if youll be there?.....but u only may get to see me as i only just got the roadie on my alfa and there 10 days wait to see vic roads as they gotta check it out to as its been unregistered for 3 years..soo thats the only think holding it back which is a shame....
I just had a look "Le Tour De North East" - if its over the weekend i probably cant make it as i work most weekends....what are the dates?
Cheers Karlo
I had 3 of the M8 x 30 x 1.25 SHCS fail last weekend resulting in a flat tyre. The screws sheared completely at the mating surface between the nut flange and the inner rim. Seem to recall a metallic "ping" as one of the nuts struck the underneath of the car somewhere!
These are Class 12.9 screws and I understand are the original Simmons component - now 30 years old.
Was there ever a recall or very early on a change in screw specification as these plated 12.9 screws are not ideal in this application.
Given the way the screws sheared nitrogen embrittlement is the likely culprit.
Anyone know the tensile strength of the 12 point bolts now used by Simmons or wheel repair centres installing screws in these and similar composite wheels?
Had 3 of the M8 x 30 x 1.25 SHCS fail on my V5's over the weekend. Screws sheared completely through the thread root. End result - loss of tyre pressure over-night!
The screws are grade 12.9 and plated - not ideal in this application. The screws appear to be a commercial product (Unbrako?) and would be around thirty years old if original. Given the hardness of the screws and the plating, hydrogen embrittlement is the likely cause of failure. No apparent sign of crack propagation over a long period. These screws failed / sheared very rapidly!
Given the nature of the failure and likelihood the screws are unsuitable in this application, has anyone encountered similar failures?
The Simmons V5's were purchased new in 1988. Did Simmons change the specification of these screws at some later stage? Is this a known problem?
The flange on the nuts on the inside of the wheels are not serrated, not a nylock and have not been chemically thread locked. Is this typical of late 80's Simmons wheels?
Anyone know the tensile strength of the 12 point M8 bolts now being used on these and similar composite wheels?
Any advice greatly appreciated.
Colin
I read this thread today really just out of idle curiosity as I have 15x6 Simmons rims on my GTV. Which prompted me to glance down this arvo when I pulled in the drive and lo and behold, one of the bolts joining the dish to the rim is missing!
Can't honestly say when it may have gone walkabout, except I'm (maybe...) pretty sure I'd have noticed fairly quickly.
So the question is - any suggestions where can I buy replacement bolts and nuts for a Simmons wheel?
Hi Poohbah
Find attached link to Simmons website for parts. This site is located in Sydney, but I am sure if you can locate their state office in WA then shipping shouldn’t be too expensive. Note : Cronic customs in WA (refer to Authorised dealers tab).
http://www.simmonswheels.com.au/parts.php?type=nuts-bolts-valves
Cheers Bonno, just what I was looking for.
Tempe Tyres has all your Simmons needs.
Did some more poking around, and in addition to the missing bolt, the nuts/ends on three others have snapped off. All other wheels are fine, so I assume the front wheel has suffered some sideways vibration - though can't say how long ago it would have happened. No loss of tyre pressure yet, which probably means its been very recent.
(BTW Thanks bonno - the guys at Cronic Customs reckon they can source correct bolts for me, just waiting to hear back on time/cost etc.)
Regarding Dehne's query re torque settings, I came across this thread (below) which suggests 45Nm is the correct setting for the bolts in question. But that's a lot higher than the 24Nm mentioned by someone else here - so further investigation is probably merited. Especially as over tightening has been mentioned as a common cause of failure.
www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=200450 (http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=200450)
Coincidentally, my GTV is booked in for service tomorrow ...
Hi Poohbah
If you are unable to get the torque value for the bolt, try using the on Torque method on one of the other bolts (getting the bolt to just move). On the grounds of safety, Simmons must provide this value and suggest the Regulatory authority would not be too impressed by such a response.
Cheers Bonno. Depending on what they say about the cost, it may be more sensible for me to just take the wheel to Cronic and get them to repair it given there are now four broken bolts, and potentially more on the way out.
Hi Poohbah,
Your bolt failures seem virtually identical to mine! How old are the wheels?
I'd be interested to know if the screw heads have "12.9" stamped on them. Screws look to be plated as well. The plot thickens!
Peter at the Mag Wheel Centre (Melbourne) reccomends 30-35 Nm tightening torque for the new M8 flange bolts.
Cheers Colin, yeah seems pretty similar. The photo in that link I posted also looks much the same too. I'm not actually sure how old my wheels are, I'd guess at least 10-15 years as Simmons don't make the F15s any more apparently. Can't check heads at moment, dropped car in to workshop earlier cos it was booked in for servicing. Will have a look when I get it back.
For those in a similar position.
Simmons is no longer owned by the original people and they no longer manufacture the older style rims or bolts (eg my F15s), nor can they supply the bolts for these rims anymore. (*I inquired direct with Simmons, and the reply came back from Tempe Tyres, so I assume that is who now manufactures rims under the Simmons brand. They just told me they couldn't supply them, which wasn't much help.)
But the helpful guys at Cronic Customs here chased things up for me, and they've been advised (by Simmons/Tempe) to just use equivalent HT bolts and nuts. So I'm going to take the wheel in and we'll identify what the best match would be.
Also - a tip for anyone with broken bolts or who is wanting to freshen their rims up by replacing some or all bolts. Only remove and replace one bolt at a time (in cross pattern) or the rim will lose its seal (as some have suffered). Apparently its very difficult if you pull them all off at once to ever regain a proper seal.
Colin - whereabouts on the screw heads are yours stamped 12.9? Around the rim or on the side of the barrel? I can't seen anything on mine - but they are pretty ratty and corroded.
Also responding to your initial query, the nuts on the inside of the rim on my wheels are serated.
Well lets see how these go. As a stop gap, I just went and bought some M8 cap head (allen key) bolts and lock nuts that look much the same as the ones already fitted. Slotted right in. Gotta be better than four broken/missing ones, and will do til I get "recommended" ones.
BTW Colin - mine are definitely not stamped. Just really corroded. You can see how bad they were in the pic, ends sheared off. Shiny replacements fitted.
Also for Shane - I had a cracked alloy rim (not a simmons) welded and rolled about a year ago, which cost $80. A full refurb (skimming, repainting etc) would have been about double per rim.
Hi Colin and Poohbah
Quite an interesting post and have checked for missing bolts on all 4 wheels on my car and all OK. With respect to availability of replacement nut and bolt for the old series Simmons wheels, I find the response from Simmons perplexing to say the least. Surely the Technical Dept would have given an alternative or whether the new nut and bolt design was suitable. Apart from 2 lengths alternatives, suggest they are equivalent and supersede the old style. Maybe it is company policy so they can sell you a set of new wheels?. Anyhow, as Colin indicated more than likely they will be a grade 12.9 conforming to ASTM socket head cap screw (marking as per photo) refer to following Unbrako link.
http://www.unbrako.com.au/socket-screws
Additionally, the recommended torque value for these bolts is 39 N-m. Refer to Page 39 of engineering guide at the following link.
http://www.unbrako.com.au/images/downloads/engg_guide.pdf
Cheers bonno. Might be worth me trying them direct.
FYI - I have emailed Unbrako to see if they can recommend and supply alternatives. Will let you know what they say.
Dismantled the offending wheel and halfway through cleaning for re-assembly.
See attached pikkies of failed screw, complete screw, new bolt and before and after cleaning
New titanium bolts / nuts will reduce overall wheel weight by a bit over 400g.
Another pikkie
Another
last one!
24 hours on after a good couple of hours "vigourous" driving, and my replacement bolts are still holding fast, no loss of tyre pressure ...
Now I actually have to get around to replacing the tyres. Need 205/55/R15s - any recommendations? (The Goodyear Eagles now on the car are apparently no longer available in that size)
Within reason - don't need ultra expensive semi slicks.
Wheel back in one piece!
A day or two for the sealant to dry, fit the tyre and find out if the air stays where its supposed to!
Looks great Colin, nice work.
Hey Colin, once I got all the grime off and had some decent light I could see my original bolts were also stamped 12.9 on one side and HM on the other.
What make, type and spec are the new bolts you bought and where did you get them?
Just to close things out - I've just contacted a local supplier in Perth (L&T Venables) which sells the correct bolts (in black too) off the shelf.
Steel 12 point flange bolts / nuts are from
http://www.magwheelcentre.com.au/
Peter West is a top bloke!
The titanium equivalent bolts / nuts I purchased from
http://www.racebolts.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=44_54&products_id=92
All are class 8 items. The class 12.9 bolts are way too hard. No point using way over spec steel bolts to hold aluminium together in tension. The aluminium would (should!) fail well before the steel screw would.
Interesting thread. I refinished a set of B45's many years ago: pulled the centre off, sandblasted and repainted that and polished the rims. Simmons told me at the time that as long as I didn't disturb the seal between the two halves I could just refit the centre with new bolts. I'm pretty sure the original bolts and nuts are still sitting on the shelf in my garage in Surrey Hills.
Anyway, they came up a treat. And I see the current Simmons are still offering not just the B45 but also the earlier V5. Wow!
Hi all, I am restoring some Simmons wheels that seem a little different...interested in any info / experience anyone may have.
They are 15 x 6.5 inch v4s, 4x98, two piece.
Bolts are smaller than the 3-piece Simmons, and after a lot of measuring and fiddly metric / imperial converting, I figured out they are 1/4 x 28 UNF, and I needed a 3/16 key to get one out.
The nuts are also different in that they have a sleeve that slots into the rim (see pics).
Was surprised as I have only heard of metric bolts on Simmons wheels?
I'm thinking I'll buy some new bolts https://www.boltandnut.com.au/screws/socket-allen-screws/socket-head-cap/1-4-x-28-tpi-unf-plain-black-grade-12-9-socket-3-16-key-head-cap-screws.html and clean up and re-use the existing nuts as I have no idea where I would get something similar!
Inners and rim will be vapour blasted and the inners painted.
Thinking I'll get ACE Wheels in Braeside to clean up and polish the outer lip and do the final re-assembly - I'm not sure of the torque settings for the bolts.
Hi Alfetta77
Find attached link to Simmons wheels website (refer to parts menu).
https://www.simmonswheels.com.au/parts/
Hey guys I had not issue with sealing my 1984 Simmons 3p Rims.
Just make sure you use the correct anti corrotion silicone.
My centres were green and I refurbish them back to gold.
More Photos :)
Nice job on restoring the wheels ALFAA. In the past I found Dow Corning 832 sealant a great product for such an application (pressure, temperature and dissimilar materials).
I had an issue with finding tyres to fit the rear rims @ 260mm width.
260mm were too wide so I changed the inner piece rim from 170mm to 140mm to make the overall width to 230mm. :)
More photos ;)