Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 932 Series (156, GTV, Spider, 147, GT, and 166) => Topic started by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:45:59 PM

Title: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
I have done track days before but I always wanted to do some track racing. My mates have been talking about the lemons racing 24h for ages but trying to get everyone together seemed too hard after many attempts. After a bunch of conversations with Sebastian from Maureci Motors in between services, I was convinced that there isnt much point of doing this to a registered car. The last couple of AROCA online club meetings went through the Twin Spark Cup which I had no idea existed.

https://www.twinsparkcup.com.au/

After speaking with John during the AROCA Meeting, this seemed like something that I could do and this way I can take my passion for cars to another level. The regulations are pretty straight forward and you need a Motorsport Australia/CAMS Racing license or the other non cams one which I forgot. However I like to do other CAMS events so I will hopefully be getting one in a couple of months when my current one expires.

I bought a 156 twin spark the other week for $1000 that was unregistered with 330,000km. But it drives very well and could potentially be on a new engine. It made a couple hundred km trip home with no issues. It hadnt been washed for a while as it had mould, spider webs and was probably used for transporting a dog as I couldnt get the dog smell out. So what better excuse for stripping the interior?

I was shocked at how well the paint came up after a cut, polish, wax and finish. Spent about 10 hours cleaning it and  about another 10 hours fixing odd bits and stripping it.

So far have ordered:
Slotted discs $300
Ferodo DS2500 pads $800
Braided brake lines $250
Federal semi slicks in 225 45 17 $800
New crystal vision bulbs as factory ones sucked $50
Timing belt kit
Clic R pliers as can't figure out how put them back together ;D
All off ebay

Other than that it already has an eibach suspension kit so won't have to do the suspension for a while.

Next step will be bucket seat, harness and roll cage and that's it. Roll cage is around $3k. Bucket seat is around $500 to $1000 and harness is around $500.

So pretty happy with potentially having a race car for around 8k all up and its cool as you can do it in stages. I found that you can hire a car trailer for around $150 for the day so it saves driving to the track on semi slicks.

Other events I am looking forward to is AROCA Winton 12 hour relay, Philip Island 6 hour relay and potentially some 24 hour racing through Motor Events as they do it since lemons 24h is finished.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:48:53 PM
After cut, polish, wax and finish.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:49:58 PM
Never ran on semi slicks so excited
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:51:22 PM
Finally got the dog smell out
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 15, 2021, 11:19:30 PM
Finally got the dog smell out

Don't worry, it'll come back first time it rains . . . .  ::)

 ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 11:22:30 PM
The interior isnt going back in so no more dog smell ;).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 16, 2021, 10:18:03 AM
Hi this is a question for the Twin Spark Cup racers; how much of the dashboard needs to be in the car? It says it needs the standard fascia so does it need the entire dashboard running down to the handbrake?

Also are 16x7 on federal rsr semi slicks the control wheel and tyre?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 16, 2021, 02:24:40 PM
Nulon 5w 40 Racing oil
K&N oil filter
Penrite 75w 90 gear oil
It already has a K&N air filter
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 16, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
"The fascia must remain standard except for modifications essential for the fitment of a full roll Cage. Original
instruments must remain in the standard location. Standard instrument stalks must be fitted and working.". 
My reading of the above seems it will allow removal of the "centre console" including trim down to and including the handbrake.  Call John Burkhart for clarification.  Most TSC cars I've seen retain the centre console / gear stick surround / handbrake trim.  Probably replaced after carpets removed?

"7 Wheels and Steering
7.1 Wheel Diameter
All cars must use 16Ē diameter wheels.
7.2 Wheel Width
Maximum rim width 7Ē
7.3 Wheel Type
Wheel type is free. Competitors MUST ENSURE that wheels are suitable for racing purposes and should be
inspected regularly for cracks, rim damage etc.
7.4 Modifications Prohibited
Steering must not be altered from standard specification as regards method and position/mounting points of
components. The bending of steering arms is not permitted under any circumstances. The steering ratio must remain
as standard for the model. On models fitted with power steering as standard it must always be in full working order.
However, the standard Power Steering oil cooler may be removed and/or replaced by an aftermarket oil cooler.
8 Tyres
8.1 Specification Ė Nominated Control Tyre
Federal 595 RSR are the nominated control tyre to be used by all competitors until 31 December 2020
R Spec tyres are not permitted.".

TS engines do not handle sustained high engine revs.  A wise investment would be a custom soft rev limiter set to around 6100rpm. 

Welcome aboard!!

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 16, 2021, 06:31:38 PM
Thanks Colin. Didnt know about the revs. How does a rev limter work for the Twin Spark? Is an ecu or obd thing?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 16, 2021, 06:43:00 PM
Federal semi slicks in 225 45 17 $800

All cars must use 16Ē diameter wheels.

Oops, hope you kept the receipts.  :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 16, 2021, 07:53:28 PM
Yeah I thought about it Bazz, before I bought the slicks but I like the 17s that came on the car as they kind of look like the 156 touring car wheels.  I was hoping to do a couple of sprints and the Winton 12h in the next couple of months but lock down seems to cancelling events. So I may as well get used to the federal as the other options were nankangs, Hankook and bridgestones which were a bit more.

The more popular 16s on the 156 are 16x6.5 so I will hunt around for some 16x7s that I like.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 17, 2021, 09:44:49 AM
While Colin says that TS don't handle high revs, I will politely disagree.

I have a TS track day car which I rev out to the limiter, and so far it's been to about 55 race meets over the last 4 odd years and it's at about 220kkm now.

I also have the balance belt removed to squeeze out every hp. My friend has developer a cheap intake trumpet mod that gives about 5 hp at the wheels, hit me up if it's something of interest.

Also, I believe 225 to be too wide for standard 7" wheels, especially for motorsports use. Not safety wise but performance wise.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 17, 2021, 10:25:20 AM
While Colin says that TS don't handle high revs, I will politely disagree.

I have a TS track day car which I rev out to the limiter, and so far it's been to about 55 race meets over the last 4 odd years and it's at about 220kkm now.

I also have the balance belt removed to squeeze out every hp. My friend has developer a cheap intake trumpet mod that gives about 5 hp at the wheels, hit me up if it's something of interest.

Also, I believe 225 to be too wide for standard 7" wheels, especially for motorsports use. Not safety wise but performance wise.

Thanks Warsch. So you use the factory limiter?

What tyre size would you recommend for 16x7s? A quick ebay search shows the federal rsr semi slicks available in 205 45 16 and 205 50 16.

For anyone else considering a twin spark cup car, these factory GT wheels are apparently 16x7 and it seems like the same wheel on some of the Twin Spark Cup pics. Ideally I would love to find some bbs style wheels.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 18, 2021, 12:31:31 PM
The ebay seller refunded my ds2500 purchase.

https://shop.alfisti.net/Tuning-Styling/Alfa-156/Brakes:::1_15_45.html

Best place I have found so far that has all the brake options. Note you can order EBC brakes from EBC.

Ferodo have the ds2500 and ds3000 which is a race pad. The ds3000 rear pads only fit from 2002 onwards. Mine is 2000 so would ds3000 on the front and ds2500 on the rear work? Would the 2002 rear brake change just be a change of calipers or is there more to it?

Regarding the brake fluid, I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4. Are there any other good options? I am a Nulon convert after using their additives but Penrite is great as well.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 18, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Mmmmmm.  If your changing gear when the engine is bouncing on the limiter you maybe changing a tad late!  Seen more than one TS let go here in Vic.  I'll admit though some of these engines may have been iffy before hitting the track!

Give the "50" profile tires a shot.  They'll provide a bit more grip under braking over the 45's and in theory run cooler.
 
We use Motul RBF 600 or the Penrite 600 in our FF.  The Motul has a slightly higher dry and wet boiling point though.  Driver reckons the Motul also feels better.  Whatever fluid you use - bleed the brakes often!

Not sure if disabling the balance shaft is allowed in the regs!?!  A few restrictions on induction system mods as well methinks!?!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:52:28 PM
Ferodo have the ds2500 and ds3000 which is a race pad. The ds3000 rear pads only fit from 2002 onwards. Mine is 2000 so would ds3000 on the front and ds2500 on the rear work? Would the 2002 rear brake change just be a change of calipers or is there more to it?

Regarding the brake fluid, I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4. Are there any other good options? I am a Nulon convert after using their additives but Penrite is great as well.

I haven't noticed any changes in my lap time regardless of what the rear pads are. I used to have EBC yellowstuff at the rear, then EBC ultimax and now it's some generic stuff. I also believe that 156 has to much rear brake bias so better not to go race pads at the rear.

156 and 147 had 251 mm rear rotors with different calipers and pads, they are interchangeable though. 2002 onwards and GTAs have bigger 270 mm rotors, which you can install, but there's no reason to.

I've been running the same brake fluid for all the 4 years I've been racing and never had a problem. I partially flush the calipers every now and then. Again, I guess anything of similar spec would do alright.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:55:52 PM
Mmmmmm.  If your changing gear when the engine is bouncing on the limiter you maybe changing a tad late!  Seen more than one TS let go here in Vic.  I'll admit though some of these engines may have been iffy before hitting the track!

I don't let it bounce, but just by a few revs. It seems to provide the best performance that way.

But yeah, previous history is important. I've got a donor car with a TS with just 140kkm which has its block pierced through back and front. No sure how that happened, but it was some young bloke's daily and never raced.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:57:30 PM
Give the "50" profile tires a shot.  They'll provide a bit more grip under braking over the 45's and in theory run cooler.

45s have smaller overall diameter so can provide better acceleration. Can't say which would be faster though, depends on many factors. So I'd go with the cheaper one.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 19, 2021, 07:10:50 PM
Ferodo have the ds2500 and ds3000 which is a race pad. The ds3000 rear pads only fit from 2002 onwards. Mine is 2000 so would ds3000 on the front and ds2500 on the rear work? Would the 2002 rear brake change just be a change of calipers or is there more to it?

Regarding the brake fluid, I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4. Are there any other good options? I am a Nulon convert after using their additives but Penrite is great as well.

156 and 147 had 251 mm rear rotors with different calipers and pads, they are interchangeable though. 2002 onwards and GTAs have bigger 270 mm rotors, which you can install, but there's no reason to.


Thanks that is what I was after. I will have to check the discs that I bought on the weekend.

These guys are pretty good with the DS2500 being around $580 delivered https://shop.alfisti.net/index.php?language=en

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 19, 2021, 07:11:47 PM

We use Motul RBF 600 or the Penrite 600 in our FF.  The Motul has a slightly higher dry and wet boiling point though.  Driver reckons the Motul also feels better.  Whatever fluid you use - bleed the brakes often!


Thanks Colin. I will keep the Motul in mind for next time. I would be happy to try both to see the difference for myself.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 19, 2021, 08:24:16 PM
Ferodo have the ds2500 and ds3000 which is a race pad. The ds3000 rear pads only fit from 2002 onwards. Mine is 2000 so would ds3000 on the front and ds2500 on the rear work? Would the 2002 rear brake change just be a change of calipers or is there more to it?

Regarding the brake fluid, I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4. Are there any other good options? I am a Nulon convert after using their additives but Penrite is great as well.

156 and 147 had 251 mm rear rotors with different calipers and pads, they are interchangeable though. 2002 onwards and GTAs have bigger 270 mm rotors, which you can install, but there's no reason to.


Thanks that is what I was after. I will have to check the discs that I bought on the weekend.

These guys are pretty good with the DS2500 being around $580 delivered https://shop.alfisti.net/index.php?language=en

For everyones info , the ferodo ds2500 rear pads for the 251mm disc also fit the 166 and 164 Q4.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:51:36 AM
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:56:24 AM
Bucket seat question - would an xl bucket seat with head restraints fit in the 156? For example the momo seat attached.

Are side mount rails the best option or can the sliding rails work well? If I do an enduro with mates than they would probably need to slide the seat to fit.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:57:30 AM
Anyone tried the Monza 6 point harness? It seems well priced and is fia approved.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 22, 2021, 01:26:58 PM
When it comes to electrical, good start its to disconnect the battery, make and have a coffee, glass of red or a beer, then go for it. 
If you are stripping the interior, and don't intend restoring it later, remove as much cable as possible - but label EVERYTHING.
Cable can be heavy.  I removed near 7kg from my 75 that was redundant after the PO removed the aftermarket stereo!
If you intend to cut cables - 1 core at a time with side cutters - even with the battery disconnected!  Then fold back the cut cable 1800 on itself and tape up.  Liquid electrical tape can be applied with a brush or exposed conductors dipped into the can.  Any wiring exposed during the interior strip out can be damaged given the now loss of mechanical protection. 

That 156 looks very nice!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 02:51:36 PM
When it comes to electrical, good start its to disconnect the battery, make and have a coffee, glass of red or a beer, then go for it. 
If you are stripping the interior, and don't intend restoring it later, remove as much cable as possible - but label EVERYTHING.
Cable can be heavy.  I removed near 7kg from my 75 that was redundant after the PO removed the aftermarket stereo!
If you intend to cut cables - 1 core at a time with side cutters - even with the battery disconnected!  Then fold back the cut cable 1800 on itself and tape up.  Liquid electrical tape can be applied with a brush or exposed conductors dipped into the can.  Any wiring exposed during the interior strip out can be damaged given the now loss of mechanical protection. 

That 156 looks very nice!

I can handle the beer and wine part ;D. Ordered some side cutters. 3M also do a tartan electrical tape so will give that a shot.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 23, 2021, 09:17:25 AM
Bucket seat question - would an xl bucket seat with head restraints fit in the 156? For example the momo seat attached.

Are side mount rails the best option or can the sliding rails work well? If I do an enduro with mates than they would probably need to slide the seat to fit.

Standard 156 rails and the frame underneath are really high. So the frame that is part of the body is positioned high, then you add standard rails and then L-brackets. I have a Sparco bucket seat set up that way and I reach roof lining with my helmet and I'm 176 cm. I suppose seat like that would fit, but barely. A good idea is to cut that standard frame out and weld in proper mounts thus giving like 5 cm extra clearance or more.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 23, 2021, 09:20:41 AM
Anyone tried the Monza 6 point harness? It seems well priced and is fia approved.

I've got harness exactly like that, they are good, but luckily I haven't actually tried them so far. I also have same brand but with narrow shoulder straps for HANS. Straps, locks - all of that look solid and good quality.

Surely Autotecnica beats fakes which are plentyful with bug name brands. I've also seen some rally guys sporting this brand so I guess it's ok.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 23, 2021, 10:00:16 AM
Bucket seat question - would an xl bucket seat with head restraints fit in the 156? For example the momo seat attached.

Are side mount rails the best option or can the sliding rails work well? If I do an enduro with mates than they would probably need to slide the seat to fit.

Standard 156 rails and the frame underneath are really high. So the frame that is part of the body is positioned high, then you add standard rails and then L-brackets. I have a Sparco bucket seat set up that way and I reach roof lining with my helmet and I'm 176 cm. I suppose seat like that would fit, but barely. A good idea is to cut that standard frame out and weld in proper mounts thus giving like 5 cm extra clearance or more.

Yeah I took all the roof lining out in the 156. I had a GT with a sunroof and sold it after scraping the roof without a helmet.

I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Racing-Seat-Side-Mount-Bracket-Velo-Universal-Recaro-OMP-Bride-Cobra-Sparco-/203076607116?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 23, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities? https://richmonds.com.au/portfolio/2004-alfa-romeo-156-race-car/

 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 10:24:03 AM
Went with the momo mod 08. $370 from ebay. I did some research on the saas steering wheels and people were complaing about them bending when you just lean on it. Also the Dish helps on the momo in case of accidents as you dont want a flat bit of exposed metal in the middle of the steering wheel.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 26, 2021, 11:21:17 AM
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 26, 2021, 11:39:42 AM
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities?

I'm pretty sure vinyl is fine as it's the material standard door cards are made of, you can get sheets from Bunnings even. Then there's zincalum sheets which I've been told are the lightest per square meter. And, I guess, thin alu sheets work too.

The car in the link is such an odd one.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 12:01:31 PM
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities?

I'm pretty sure vinyl is fine as it's the material standard door cards are made of, you can get sheets from Bunnings even. Then there's zincalum sheets which I've been told are the lightest per square meter. And, I guess, thin alu sheets work too.

The car in the link is such an odd one.

I ended up getting a black pvc board that is used for roof insulation as it's impact resistant from bunnings.

Do people re wire the power window switches from the doors? I am thinking of keeping them on the doors but it that doesnt seem like the common solution.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on August 26, 2021, 04:58:06 PM
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
I'd tape them or dip the cut end in silicone sealer just to be sure, but for a racer why not remove as much wire as possible for weight saving?  If the whole circuit is not required, remove the applicable fuse (more weight reduction!)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 09:48:00 PM
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally

I ended up getting the l shape bracket and the xl momo seat.  (The seat cost more than the car lol but I figure my neck is worth more than $500 so bought the one with the head restraints. A seat with no head restraints is about $600) I will try the standard frame as cutting it out seems like a lot of work for a couple of cm clearance. Plus the seat is a side mount so it should go lower than factory.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 09:49:06 PM
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
I'd tape them or dip the cut end in silicone sealer just to be sure, but for a racer why not remove as much wire as possible for weight saving?  If the whole circuit is not required, remove the applicable fuse (more weight reduction!)

I don't know enough about wiring looms so I will ensure my car starts and sacrifice the weight gain ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 09:52:17 PM
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 27, 2021, 11:10:02 AM
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

I cant advise on tyre pressures.  Give John B a call?  But purchase the best pressure gauge you can afford. 

I have one of these.
https://www.alfano.com.au/product/alfano-tyre-control-2-pressure-gauge-inc-temp-sensor-probe/


 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 11:29:53 AM
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

156/147 don't really need adjustable bushes, the camber increases with lowering the car. So my car has good -2.5 at the front with simple polybushes in top arms and just new lower arms. I do have all the rear polybushed though, and it's nice, but not really needed.

Eibach spring are nowhere near 400 lbs, they are like 30% more stiff than stock.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 11:36:00 AM
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?

Tire pressure you'd have to work out yourself for your tires, tarmac temp, car weight etc. I run about 30 psi hot in Yoko AD08R in the same size. And 32-34 hot in Hankook RS4 215/45r17.

If bushes are good, I don't think it's worth to go polyurethane, but if you have spare cash, it does add to better response.

As already said - neutral toe is a good start, front camber will be ok when you lower your car, and I'd try to set about the same at rear.

Eibach with stock shocks is way too soft for track duties. Cheap coilovers are the way to go, in my opinion. You can get a set of DGR coilovers delivered for AUD 1250. They are track proven in 156 and are a control suspension for Hot Hatch cup here in QLD.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 27, 2021, 01:37:18 PM
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

I cant advise on tyre pressures.  Give John B a call?  But purchase the best pressure gauge you can afford. 

I have one of these.
https://www.alfano.com.au/product/alfano-tyre-control-2-pressure-gauge-inc-temp-sensor-probe/

Is there a cheaper tyre guage that anyone uses? Thats almost the price of my car ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 27, 2021, 01:55:26 PM
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?

Tire pressure you'd have to work out yourself for your tires, tarmac temp, car weight etc. I run about 30 psi hot in Yoko AD08R in the same size. And 32-34 hot in Hankook RS4 215/45r17.

If bushes are good, I don't think it's worth to go polyurethane, but if you have spare cash, it does add to better response.

As already said - neutral toe is a good start, front camber will be ok when you lower your car, and I'd try to set about the same at rear.

Eibach with stock shocks is way too soft for track duties. Cheap coilovers are the way to go, in my opinion. You can get a set of DGR coilovers delivered for AUD 1250. They are track proven in 156 and are a control suspension for Hot Hatch cup here in QLD.

$1250 seems very reasonable. So can I run DGR coil overs in the Twin Spark Cup? Or do I need to have the control suspension being a King Spring or Spax Coil Over set?

This is from the twin spark cup regulations:

ALFA 147/156 TWIN SPARK CUP CONTROL SUSPENSION
FRONT
SPAX RACE COILOVER STRUT G9494AS 2 OFF
KING MAIN SPRING 170 X 60 X 550LB/IN KPS308 2 OFF
SPAX TENDER SPRING R019 2 OFF
PILLOW BALL TOP MOUNT SC44332S 2 OFF

REAR
SPAX RACE COILOVER STRUT TAAS943 2 OFF
KING MAIN SPRING 170 X 60 X 400LB/IN KPS305 2 OFF
SPAX TENDER SPRING R019 2 OFF
PILLOW BALL TOP MOUNT SC44334S 2 OFF

PRICING
COMPETITOR COST $2159.09 plus GST ($2375.00 inc GST)
Delivery cost additional
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 27, 2021, 01:57:50 PM
Just for everyone's info here are the recommended roll cages:

https://www.agi-precision.com.au/product-category/roll-cages/cams-roll-cages/bolt-in/alfa/alfa-156/

It seems like the $2,200 option and up is needed for the twin spark cup?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
This is from the twin spark cup regulations:

You probably have to run that, true. But then your current suspension won't allow you to run for points there either. But I think you still can participate. I'm from QLD though, and sadly we don't have the number for TS cup. You better check with their orgs, I'm sure some are here in other thread/sections.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 27, 2021, 07:07:31 PM
This is from the twin spark cup regulations:

You probably have to run that, true. But then your current suspension won't allow you to run for points there either. But I think you still can participate. I'm from QLD though, and sadly we don't have the number for TS cup. You better check with their orgs, I'm sure some are here in other thread/sections.

Which ensure an extra $5,000 to spend if coil overs are $3,000 and I need a set of 16s and tyres. Most 156 track car threads I have read are using 17s and even 18s. I am guessing the 17s on the 156 were optional and I think the gta came with 18s. But rules are rules.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 11:08:50 AM
Anyone have any tips for taking out the sound deadening. I bought a can that freezes electrical circuits from jay car but it doesnt make any difference as some youtube vids claim. I have used a blunt chisel before but that takes forever and leaves residue. I bought a sharp chisel this time but it is stripping the paint of as well so I will may just do it and paint over it. Ideally it would be a 40 degree day so it heats up but not waiting to summer. Would a hair dryer make any difference?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on August 29, 2021, 11:47:41 AM
Dry ice

Buy a couple of bags, place it on the floor, chip it all up, works a treat (did for me)
Should be able to get dry ice from your local fisho shop as they use it in eskyís (chilly bins, etc)
Make sure to leave the doors open and ventilate


Heat just makes it sticky and leaves residue
Dry ice takes it off and leaves behind a perfect (primed/painted) surface
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 12:19:20 PM
Dry ice

Buy a couple of bags, place it on the floor, chip it all up, works a treat (did for me)
Should be able to get dry ice from your local fisho shop as they use it in eskyís (chilly bins, etc)
Make sure to leave the doors open and ventilate


Heat just makes it sticky and leaves residue
Dry ice takes it off and leaves behind a perfect (primed/painted) surface

Thanks. Is that safe to go near the wires as I haven't taken out the main wiring looms going down the side of the car?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 12:44:41 PM
Thanks. Is that safe to go near the wires as I haven't taken out the main wiring looms going down the side of the car?

Yes, as long as you keep the chisel away from the wires, and don't try to bend the wires when frozen (snap).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 02:26:25 PM
Thanks. Is that safe to go near the wires as I haven't taken out the main wiring looms going down the side of the car?

Yes, as long as you keep the chisel away from the wires, and don't try to bend the wires when frozen (snap).

Thanks. I will give it a shot next weekend as removing the airbags took longer than expected. How long does it take for the wires to come back to room temp? I am guessing leave it over night?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 02:31:54 PM
Edit
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 03:54:56 PM
Are these yellow cables all for the air bags? I cut of the connector that was part of the air bag but it seems to keep going to the left that may go into the door? All the other yellow cabling that is at the bottom of the pic came from the airbags from the seats.

*Note make sure you disconnected the battery terminals before taking out airbags.

What is the silver box that all the yellow cables are going into on the bottom rigt side of the pic? Is this some sort of ecu?

What about taking out the heater? Is there a point of keeping it? What about for 24h racing where conditions might need it for defogging the window? Or is that part of the air con system? If I want air coming into the cabin without the air con on, is the heater part of that system?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 06:33:33 PM
Yes, in the 156 all the yellow sheathed cables are airbag related. The silver box you refer to is the Airbag ECU.

I'd keep the heater, as it works in conjunction with the A/C to defog. Besides, if you end up doing a 24hr or something similar in the middle of winter you'll curse yourself for removing it.

(https://internationalnewsagency.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/frozen-face-emoji-780x470.jpg)

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 29, 2021, 06:35:11 PM
Hey Alfatango, I look forward to seeing you on the track Ė hopefully in the near future what with lockdowns and everything.

I was just catching up on this thread and wanted to acknowledge Colin's suggestion to limit your revs. Over the last 2 or 3 years I have witnessed the demise of roughly 10 TS's, mostly bottom end failures, in my own case a broken valve spring (if I remember correctly).
Not entirely surprising given their age, I guess. One Alfa specialist has suggested, as Colin said, that sustained revs at the limiter are to be avoided Ė I guess this is a track specific issue Ė holding 2nd gear at Winton short track turns 5, 6 and 7? Ė I have'nt driven there for a while!

Watching Twins Spark Cup cars in action in the UK I am blown away by the sustained high revs, but I'm guessing that these are purpose built engines, within the competition guidlines?

Food for thought!
Al.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Yes, in the 156 all the yellow sheathed cables are airbag related. The silver box you refer to is the Airbag ECU.

I'd keep the heater, as it works in conjunction with the A/C to defog. Besides, if you end up doing a 24hr or something similar in the middle of winter you'll curse yourself for removing it.

(https://internationalnewsagency.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/frozen-face-emoji-780x470.jpg)

Thanks Bazz. Can I remove the airbag ecu now that all air bags have been removed?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 07:11:13 PM
Hey Alfatango, I look forward to seeing you on the track Ė hopefully in the near future what with lockdowns and everything.

I was just catching up on this thread and wanted to acknowledge Colin's suggestion to limit your revs. Over the last 2 or 3 years I have witnessed the demise of roughly 10 TS's, mostly bottom end failures, in my own case a broken valve spring (if I remember correctly).
Not entirely surprising given their age, I guess. One Alfa specialist has suggested, as Colin said, that sustained revs at the limiter are to be avoided Ė I guess this is a track specific issue Ė holding 2nd gear at Winton short track turns 5, 6 and 7? Ė I have'nt driven there for a while!

Watching Twins Spark Cup cars in action in the UK I am blown away by the sustained high revs, but I'm guessing that these are purpose built engines, within the competition guidlines?

Food for thought!
Al.

Thanks Al. Are you using a limiter to stop the revs at a certain rev range? If so, how does it work. At the moment my goal is to get to a start line rather than squeeze the last tenth out of a lap time.

I feel sorry for Neil as the lock downs keep cancelling the events.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 09:19:45 PM
Thanks Bazz. Can I remove the airbag ecu now that all air bags have been removed?

Yes
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 30, 2021, 10:17:12 AM
Hi Alfatango, no I am not using a rev limiter, I had not considered anything to supplement the factory limiter until Colin suggested it in this thread.
I sprint my son's 147 very occasionally and am happy to reside at the slowest end of the lap times Ė a bit like you I'm not out there to challenge for the fastest lap time, my objective is to have a fun day and drive the car home after the event.  :)
The car is on its second engine after an engine failure at Winton whilst my son was driving, and I don't want to pay for number 3!
My son on the other hand is a little more exuberant (as you are when you're 22), and I reckon that a device to limit the revs to about 6,100 is a really good idea.
Colin, maybe you could elaborate on the best way to do this?

The other way to go about this is to go for it, and to accept that you might need to replace the engine at some stage. Imlachs wreckers have TS cars coming and going all the time and you can buy a complete second hand engine for $240 if you know what you are doing (I don't)  ;D It is racing after all...

Cheers,
Al.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 30, 2021, 11:44:28 AM
Probably less expensive and certainly easier to install would be shift lights - something along the lines of below.  An incompatible or poorly installed rev limiter can cause no end of dramas!

https://ecliptech.com.au/shift-p2/

Factory tachos can also drift out of calibration as they age.  Given your 156 is now unroadworthy, maybe you could get it on your trailer and drop into your local Auto Elec to have the tacho accuracy checked. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 30, 2021, 12:02:51 PM
After a few events at the same track you would know the shifting points, so you can just upshift earlier. Otherwise a shift light would do. I'm sure you can hit a limiter a couple of times to tweak the tacho/limiter. TS is not that fragile.

I'm also curious what's different about VIC and NSW track which makes them destroy engines whereas mine works just fine here in QLD. Or maybe I'm just lucky or Penrite Racing oils are really good.

Either way, a TS engine costs about as a pair of cheaper tires.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 30, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
After a few events at the same track you would know the shifting points, so you can just upshift earlier. Otherwise a shift light would do. I'm sure you can hit a limiter a couple of times to tweak the tacho/limiter. TS is not that fragile.

I'm also curious what's different about VIC and NSW track which makes them destroy engines whereas mine works just fine here in QLD. Or maybe I'm just lucky or Penrite Racing oils are really good.

Either way, a TS engine costs about as a pair of cheaper tires.

As Al mentioned a TS engine is $250? Didnt realise they were that cheap. If you bought a second hand engine, what  would you do to it? I am guessing:
Head gasket, studs and clean the heads
Timing belt, pulleys, water pump
Spark plugs, coils
Do you muck around with new valves?
What about pistons?

Or just chuck it in, change oil and use it until it blows up again?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 30, 2021, 12:47:47 PM
Probably less expensive and certainly easier to install would be shift lights - something along the lines of below.  An incompatible or poorly installed rev limiter can cause no end of dramas!

https://ecliptech.com.au/shift-p2/

Factory tachos can also drift out of calibration as they age.  Given your 156 is now unroadworthy, maybe you could get it on your trailer and drop into your local Auto Elec to have the tacho accuracy checked.

Thats cool. Will go on the to buy list.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 30, 2021, 06:37:04 PM
Yes those shift lights are cool, make a very nice birthday present I think!
Re. TS second hand engine costs, I got prices ranging from $1200 to $250 (installation costs of course on top of that).
For $1200 you might buy an engine that's already been removed from a low klm car, known to a Alfa specialist with a documented service history and (maybe) a couple of months warranty. For a $250 engine you need to know what you are doing! Tip: don't remove it from a car with no body damage Ė chances are it's broken a cam belt!
Just wanted to qualify what I said in my previous post!
Cheers,
Al.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 01, 2021, 12:58:20 PM
Starting to look like a race car.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 01, 2021, 12:59:32 PM
Sticker game strong. Tow bar needs to come off but the screw holding the heat shield next to the exhaust won't come off so will leave it for the mechanics.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 01, 2021, 01:48:59 PM
Just as a side note, I have noticed how much it is easier to work on cars with higher quality youtube videos compared to even 10 years ago. Working off forums with no pictures and videos was hard. No idea how you guys used to do it pre 90s. Magazines had articles but it wasn't a very dynamic process where you could ask questions. Even buying tools is so much easier now with ebay or Bunnings stocking kinchrome stuff etc.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 01, 2021, 03:17:17 PM
Starting to look like a race car.

Nice - I still have a set of rims like that and same rotors. Also my 156 is same colour, albeit it's all sunburnt now.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on September 01, 2021, 05:21:41 PM
Just as a side note, I have noticed how much it is easier to work on cars with higher quality youtube videos compared to even 10 years ago. Working off forums with no pictures and videos was hard. No idea how you guys used to do it pre 90s. Magazines had articles but it wasn't a very dynamic process where you could ask questions. Even buying tools is so much easier now with ebay or Bunnings stocking kinchrome stuff etc.

Dude, we were smarter :)

(and invented the internet and youtube to make it easier .. and porn) ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 01, 2021, 05:54:24 PM
Dude, we were smarter :)

As I always say to my sons - "I'm not smarter than you, I've just been here longer!"
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 02, 2021, 01:35:09 PM
Do people keep the power windows switches in race cars? Do you rewire it and put a main switch somewhere near the gearbox or central console? Or do you just get rid of them because and engine kill switch would cut the power anyway? In this case do you need one of those little emergency break glass hammers? Theoretically the glass should be replaced with lexan/plastic?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 03, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
I've seen both options - keeping the buttons in place, as it's easier. Or being moved to center console.

I don't think there's a need to break glass ever on a circuit track. But I'd think a fire extinguisher would do the trick.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:27:41 PM
No turning back now. Hopefully the car still starts ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:30:06 PM
Trial fitted the L Brackets and Momo XL Daytona and it fits but but get sliding rails if you planning to not cut out the factory rails. It's way too close to the steering wheel for me and I wouldn't mind some more head room.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:30:39 PM
It's a pretty cool seat
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:31:14 PM
Door closes fine.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:34:32 PM
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally

Hey Warsch, to install this, would you cut out the whole section and weld these to the floor or its it the top part of the factory rail only and you mount these instead?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 04, 2021, 04:54:28 PM
No turning back now. Hopefully the car still starts ;D

Isn't this where someone pipes up with "OH MY GOD! YOU DIDN'T CUT THAT WIRE DID YOU!!!"   :o

 ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 05:22:56 PM
No turning back now. Hopefully the car still starts ;D

Isn't this where someone pipes up with "OH MY GOD! YOU DIDN'T CUT THAT WIRE DID YOU!!!"   :o

 ;D


Lol yeah I was kind of half expecting it ;D. Ideally I would have taken out the dashboard and cut them out from the source but maybe that's a stage 2 job with spot welding the  chassis.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 04, 2021, 06:55:17 PM
Trial fitted the L Brackets and Momo XL Daytona and it fits but but get sliding rails if you planning to not cut out the factory rails. It's way too close to the steering wheel for me and I wouldn't mind some more head room.

I told you so!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 04, 2021, 07:01:34 PM
Hey Warsch, to install this, would you cut out the whole section and weld these to the floor or its it the top part of the factory rail only and you mount these instead?

Iíd cut this standard bracket off, itís too close to the steering wheel and too high.

However, like I said, mounting L brackets to the floor is unsafe.

You need some bars welded across. That link has quite good pictures showing the end result.

For small time circuit racing you can get away with some simpler stuff like two perpendicular bars on top of which you mount L brackets.

My setup now is just a bucket seat on standard rails so I canít take pictures. Iíll look something up online
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 05, 2021, 07:34:10 PM
Hey Warsch, to install this, would you cut out the whole section and weld these to the floor or its it the top part of the factory rail only and you mount these instead?

Iíd cut this standard bracket off, itís too close to the steering wheel and too high.

However, like I said, mounting L brackets to the floor is unsafe.

You need some bars welded across. That link has quite good pictures showing the end result.

For small time circuit racing you can get away with some simpler stuff like two perpendicular bars on top of which you mount L brackets.

My setup now is just a bucket seat on standard rails so I canít take pictures. Iíll look something up online

Finally makes sense
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 05, 2021, 07:43:18 PM
Here it looks like they took out the previous whole section
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on September 05, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
Only just saw this thread.  Nice work on the build so far.

Go over the TS Cup regulations very carefully.  You WILL want to get involved with it after a few track days.  And build your car to those regulations, you don't want to be backtracking and refitting stuff you've removed.  Regarding windows and switches, you need to keep glass for the TS Cup, so just keep the switches in situ. 

My advice would be to do as much as you can while keeping to the TS Cup regs, come to a few track days to shakedown the car, and talk to as many TS Cup competitors as possible, and have a good look over their cars.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Federal tyres either, they're shit, barely better than a road tyre, and nowhere near as good as a decent R tyre.  But it's the same for everyone, so all good.  From memory they work best with a high pressure.

Good luck with the build.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 06, 2021, 08:49:16 PM
I managed to get the tow bar off so that saves some weight ;D

While I was down there, I had a look at the exhaust. If I wanted to chop of the muffler, can I just angle grind it off? Would it still pass noise limit tests for track days without the muffler? Does it need a pipe welded onto it to take the exhaust gas past the bumper?

I checked the Twin Spark Cup regulations and it says the exhaust is free from manifold back and you can get rid of the muffler.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 08, 2021, 09:18:15 AM
The Brabham achievement of winning a f1 championship in his own manufactured car should be told more often. A clue to some up coming livery.

Note - use proper cleaner and decal/wrap application liquid and you get no air bubbles and a very smooth finish

By the way Brabham are stilling winning races with their track cars and are based in Australia https://www.brabhamautomotive.com/
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 08, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
If I wanted to chop of the muffler, can I just angle grind it off? Would it still pass noise limit tests for track days without the muffler? Does it need a pipe welded onto it to take the exhaust gas past the bumper?

I checked the Twin Spark Cup regulations and it says the exhaust is free from manifold back and you can get rid of the muffler.

Just chopping it off is ugly, get the exhaust shop to weld in some basic straight hot dog muffler at least. I recommend gutting the catalytic converter, or even better to replace it with a pipe. Scrappies will buy it for about a hundred which is about the same as you'd pay to weld in a pipe instead. I simply gutted mine and noticed a fair bit of torque at the low end. I assume it helped in high rev range too it's just not that obvious.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 08, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
Go over the TS Cup regulations very carefully.  You WILL want to get involved with it after a few track days.  And build your car to those regulations, you don't want to be backtracking and refitting stuff you've removed.  Regarding windows and switches, you need to keep glass for the TS Cup, so just keep the switches in situ. 

My advice would be to do as much as you can while keeping to the TS Cup regs, come to a few track days to shakedown the car, and talk to as many TS Cup competitors as possible, and have a good look over their cars.

Solid advice right there!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 09, 2021, 10:43:58 AM
If I wanted to chop of the muffler, can I just angle grind it off? Would it still pass noise limit tests for track days without the muffler? Does it need a pipe welded onto it to take the exhaust gas past the bumper?

I checked the Twin Spark Cup regulations and it says the exhaust is free from manifold back and you can get rid of the muffler.

Just chopping it off is ugly, get the exhaust shop to weld in some basic straight hot dog muffler at least. I recommend gutting the catalytic converter, or even better to replace it with a pipe. Scrappies will buy it for about a hundred which is about the same as you'd pay to weld in a pipe instead. I simply gutted mine and noticed a fair bit of torque at the low end. I assume it helped in high rev range too it's just not that obvious.

Thanks again warsch. I did some research and apparently cutting out all the cats and doing a straight pipe will probably throw an ecu error due to the oxygen sensors and the car will go into limp home mode.

Can gutting the cat be done in a home garage on Jack stands? I have found from previous work that anything with undoing bolts that are part of the exhaust is almost impossible. I have tried wd40 and pipes on the end of wrenches on previous cars and couldn't finish the job myself so maybe I should leave this for an exhaust shop? I will cut the muffler off anyway as I listened to some twin sparks with straight pipes on youtube and they sound pretty awesome. The sound obviously sounds faster than the actual speed off the car ;D.

But I could imagine doing an enduro with a straight pipe and no interior could lead to a head ache? Or is that part of the challenge? I don't want to do stuff that doesn't make much of a difference if I don't need to.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 09, 2021, 10:50:17 AM
https://youtu.be/driylDWUBCI

1.8 ts with no muffler or straight pipe
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on September 10, 2021, 02:34:45 PM
Nice use of the rev limiter!!!

The original 156 Cats are probably 600<800 cells per square inch (CPSI).  Never seen inside an Alfa cat, however if they are ceramic cells and assuming say 600 CPSI, each individual cell will be around 0.65mm in diameter.  A metallic cat will likely support thinner cell walls so each cell may be say 0.75mm dia.  Pretty restrictive!  Given the role of the cat is to expose as much gas as possible to the catalyst, the cell section is rarely circular.  Result is a high wall surface area to cross section ratio - much like a radiator. 

Cats make pretty good mufflers, so replacing the stock Alfa cat/s with say 100 CPSI cat will probably not cause engine check light and support much improved gas flow while managing noise.  A metallic cell 100 CPSI cat will probably feature at least 2mm cells.

All tracks have noise limits that must not be exceeded.  Sandown is particularly stringent for good reason.  Not unusual to black flag at least one car at most Sandown sprints.  That 156 in the youtube clip would be sent home!

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 11, 2021, 05:49:19 PM
Nice use of the rev limiter!!!

The original 156 Cats are probably 600<800 cells per square inch (CPSI).  Never seen inside an Alfa cat, however if they are ceramic cells and assuming say 600 CPSI, each individual cell will be around 0.65mm in diameter.  A metallic cat will likely support thinner cell walls so each cell may be say 0.75mm dia.  Pretty restrictive!  Given the role of the cat is to expose as much gas as possible to the catalyst, the cell section is rarely circular.  Result is a high wall surface area to cross section ratio - much like a radiator. 

Cats make pretty good mufflers, so replacing the stock Alfa cat/s with say 100 CPSI cat will probably not cause engine check light and support much improved gas flow while managing noise.  A metallic cell 100 CPSI cat will probably feature at least 2mm cells.

All tracks have noise limits that must not be exceeded.  Sandown is particularly stringent for good reason.  Not unusual to black flag at least one car at most Sandown sprints.  That 156 in the youtube clip would be sent home!

Might just stick with the standard exhaust in that case as dont want to put in a new exhaust if I mess up the cats or sensors. Maybe do it down the track.

Can't get dry ice as in 5km lock down so went old school with a chisel and hammer. There are a couple of holes in the wheel well that were these square stickers and look kind of factory or could be rust repairs. Either way, if I was to buy a mig welder what type of metal would you use for patches? Can you weld with the fuel tank in the car?

 I may as well learn to weld as it could help with the seat brackets and a few other bits and pieces.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 09:42:28 AM
Just put new tape back over the holes once you've cleaned up the wheel tub.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 01:41:54 PM
Just put new tape back over the holes once you've cleaned up the wheel tub.

Hah, otherwise if you weld them up you'll find there's some secret super critical magical reason why the previous owner put them there.  ::)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Just put new tape back over the holes once you've cleaned up the wheel tub.

Hah, otherwise if you weld them up you'll find there's some secret super critical magical reason why the previous owner put them there.  ::)

Lol hopefully not. The previous towbar has left about 8 holes as well so wouldn't mind welding them instead of putting the bolts back on.

The steering wheel is super cool. Highly recommend and it has an nfc tag where you can check authenticity.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 02:20:03 PM
Rear door will stay with factory power window bracket bolted back in and cable ties because race car.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 02:21:16 PM
Front doors are getting door skins. This pvc you can cut with Scissors so it's pretty good.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 02:35:24 PM
The last AROCA Zoom Meeting had a great talk on a gta and got the idea to use conduit from Bunnings to cover up the wires that will be going through the car. As greatly engineered as the cloth tape going around the wires every 10 cm I think most alfa electrical problems are because of no protection on the electrical wires.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 04:05:35 PM
As greatly engineered as the cloth tape going around the wires every 10 cm I think most alfa electrical problems are because of no protection on the electrical wires.

Ugh, the bloody Mummy Tape! Don't get me started . . . . .  ::)

As for the plastic conduit, use it in conjunction with Silicone Tape to bind it and keep any of the wires escaping from the split down the conduit. Also known as "Miracle Tape", "Rescue Tape" ect ect.

Brilliant stuff.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
As greatly engineered as the cloth tape going around the wires every 10 cm I think most alfa electrical problems are because of no protection on the electrical wires.

Ugh, the bloody Mummy Tape! Don't get me started . . . . .  ::)

As for the plastic conduit, use it in conjunction with Silicone Tape to bind it and keep any of the wires escaping from the split down the conduit. Also known as "Miracle Tape", "Rescue Tape" ect ect.

Brilliant stuff.

Thanks bazz. Will get some silicone tape as well.

Going to re do the dash into a mahogany color to give the car an early italian race car / ferrari vibe. Tried to a shoe leather spray and the colour is great but doesn't stick well nor is 1 can enough. Might just paint it with a brush.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:35:05 PM
Started as red seude, was meant to go brown but is now burgundy.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:35:55 PM
Tartan trim for the door skin
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:47:08 PM
New decal
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 05:36:05 PM
Yep, it's confirmed, you have WAAY too much free time on your hands!  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 06:03:50 PM
Yep, it's confirmed, you have WAAY too much free time on your hands!  :)

Lock down racing ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 07:18:35 PM
Tartan trim for the door skin

Hmm, giving me flashbacks to a TR7.........
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 08:29:47 PM
Hmm, giving me flashbacks to a TR7.........

Yeah, the type that make you sit bolt upright in the middle of the night screaming . . . .  ;D

Going to re do the dash into a mahogany color to give the car an early italian race car / ferrari vibe.

Tartan trim for the door skin

Oh yeah, both of them together just screams italian race car . . . . :o

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 08:46:18 PM
Hmm, giving me flashbacks to a TR7.........

Yeah, the type that make you sit bolt upright in the middle of the night screaming . . . .  ;D

Going to re do the dash into a mahogany color to give the car an early italian race car / ferrari vibe.

Tartan trim for the door skin

Oh yeah, both of them together just screams italian race car . . . . :o

 ;D ;D ;D

$20 bucks of ebay and bunnings supplies is probably different to modena ;D.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 08:52:28 PM
Will be doing a Yellow Front end as per early guilias so stay tuned. Already got the wrap.

Wheels will be going white as per 156 touring cars.

Doing a Martini stripe across the car as per brabham/alfa f1 and 155 touring cars.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Brad M on September 13, 2021, 09:33:28 AM
Thanks I'm enjoying this thread... it's great inspiration to get my twinspark ready.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 13, 2021, 10:33:17 AM
Might just stick with the standard exhaust in that case as dont want to put in a new exhaust if I mess up the cats or sensors. Maybe do it down the track.

Can't get dry ice as in 5km lock down so went old school with a chisel and hammer. There are a couple of holes in the wheel well that were these square stickers and look kind of factory or could be rust repairs. Either way, if I was to buy a mig welder what type of metal would you use for patches? Can you weld with the fuel tank in the car?

I think all TS 156s in Asutralia were CF2, so only one o2 sensor before the cat. So no downside of getting rid of it in the race car. If just gut it, the sound will be terrible tin can rattle at some revs, but still not too noisy if you keep the rest in place.

Why bother with fuel tank in the trunk though?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 13, 2021, 10:35:36 AM
Yep, it's confirmed, you have WAAY too much free time on your hands!  :)

Oh yeah, I'm jealous. My car badly needs some upgrades but all it gets is abuse at a racetrack.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 13, 2021, 11:18:57 AM
Thanks I'm enjoying this thread... it's great inspiration to get my twinspark ready.

Thanks. Positing the pics seems to help keep the momentum up. I guess it's why guys like Jeff do the vids on youtube for the Alfarrari on his DIY channel.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 13, 2021, 11:21:54 AM
Might just stick with the standard exhaust in that case as dont want to put in a new exhaust if I mess up the cats or sensors. Maybe do it down the track.

Can't get dry ice as in 5km lock down so went old school with a chisel and hammer. There are a couple of holes in the wheel well that were these square stickers and look kind of factory or could be rust repairs. Either way, if I was to buy a mig welder what type of metal would you use for patches? Can you weld with the fuel tank in the car?

I think all TS 156s in Asutralia were CF2, so only one o2 sensor before the cat. So no downside of getting rid of it in the race car. If just gut it, the sound will be terrible tin can rattle at some revs, but still not too noisy if you keep the rest in place.

Why bother with fuel tank in the trunk though?

Okay so you are saying cut out the cats and leave the muffler?

The welding in the wheel well is a serious question, is it unsafe to weld near the fuel tank? Or weld the seat brackets in near the gearbox? I haven't welded before and come to think most people weld when the car is completely apart. Happy to go with some non blowing up options to fix the holes in the wheel well and ex tow bar holes.

What about dry ice with the sound deadening underneath the rear seats? Can this have an impact on the fuel tank?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 13, 2021, 09:54:48 PM
Not saying you SHOULD, but you CAN weld with the fuel tank in the car.  Panelbeaters and exhaust shops do it all the time.

BUT, you need to fully understand the situation and do a full risk assessment.

When in doubt.....DON'T!!!!

It's not just the tank.  You need to consider fuel lines, vapour/recirc system, what's on the other side of the panel you are welding? etc etc etc. 

Less of a physical risk to your safety, but also consider potential damage to electrical and electronic equipment.  Battery, ECUs etc etc.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 14, 2021, 12:11:27 PM
Not saying you SHOULD, but you CAN weld with the fuel tank in the car.  Panelbeaters and exhaust shops do it all the time.

BUT, you need to fully understand the situation and do a full risk assessment.

When in doubt.....DON'T!!!!

It's not just the tank.  You need to consider fuel lines, vapour/recirc system, what's on the other side of the panel you are welding? etc etc etc. 

Less of a physical risk to your safety, but also consider potential damage to electrical and electronic equipment.  Battery, ECUs etc etc.

Thanks Beatle. I have had a look at Bunnings and there are MIG Welders for around $150 but as always by the time you buy everything you need it will probably be around $500 and not really sure I will be using it again as don't really have the space for another Project car. Although an alfetta would be fun to build...
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM

Okay so you are saying cut out the cats and leave the muffler?

The welding in the wheel well is a serious question, is it unsafe to weld near the fuel tank? Or weld the seat brackets in near the gearbox? I haven't welded before and come to think most people weld when the car is completely apart. Happy to go with some non blowing up options to fix the holes in the wheel well and ex tow bar holes.

What about dry ice with the sound deadening underneath the rear seats? Can this have an impact on the fuel tank?

That's what I've done with my cat converter. No issues apart from terrible tin can sound. But I can live with that. Easy to sort by welding in a pipe.

Seat brackets are nowhere near the gearbox, there's fuel lines somewhere though so worth checking. But why bother with some holes in the boots? I'd just seal with some sticky tape. Or just leave it as is.

As for welding - it takes time to learn and while I wouldn't mind welding up holes in the boot myself, I surely wouldn't trust myself with seat brackets.

I have no idea about dry ice, but I think it should be ok. Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 14, 2021, 02:29:10 PM
Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.

Oh, you are sooo going to regret saying that one day . . . .

(https://c.tenor.com/O0lyhfKLMFIAAAAC/rofl-emoji.gif)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 14, 2021, 05:20:02 PM

Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.

You mean like "hey, we have this spare intercontinental ballistic missile... I wonder what would happen if we strapped a guy to the front of it at fired him out of the atmosphere...."   They say necessity is the mother of invention but I don't know that this was actually necessary?  Fun nonetheless.

PS:  The dry ice won't cause any issues.  It's not liquid nitrogen cold.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 14, 2021, 06:09:38 PM
If necessity is the mother of invention, then surely desperation is the father of it, for I have seen men with a necessity be very clever, yet wondered at how the desperate are driven to be downright bloody brilliant! - Baz


Like - "You stuck your finger in WHAT to stop the bomb from going off!!"   :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 18, 2021, 07:13:26 PM
The standard 23mm eye bolts for the harness are pretty small. So far it only fits in the factory seat belt mount hole at the bottom of the pillar.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 18, 2021, 07:16:39 PM
I would like to re use the factory holes for the rear head rests. The issue is the bolts need to be over 10cm and so far the longest ones for sale I have found are 5cm long. Does anyone know where I can get longer ones?

I don't want to install a bar for the harness as planning to get an agi roll cage next year.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 19, 2021, 01:24:43 PM
Headrest bar wonít hold the harness. I bought a thick metal plate, put it horizontally against the rear wall and drilled through. Then used eye bolts and nuts. Itís not ideal but better than thin headrest metal plate.

Using lower standard harness mounting holes is okaish, but the harness angle would be a bit too steep
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 19, 2021, 03:34:54 PM
Headrest bar wonít hold the harness. I bought a thick metal plate, put it horizontally against the rear wall and drilled through. Then used eye bolts and nuts. Itís not ideal but better than thin headrest metal plate.

Using lower standard harness mounting holes is okaish, but the harness angle would be a bit too steep

Spasibo. That's a really good idea as you can adjust the angles of the harness to be in tolerance. I will get the mechanics to weld in the seat rails so will get them to do the harness at the same time in that case.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 20, 2021, 09:51:42 PM
I bit of a plug of my recent new PB at QR Clubman config. My friend dragged me around fast corners which helped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92qWlSIJFI
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 07:21:33 AM
I bit of a plug of my recent new PB at QR Clubman config. My friend dragged me around fast corners which helped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92qWlSIJFI

Nice work. Especially with all that roof lining etc ;D.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 21, 2021, 10:03:06 AM
The funny thing is, that the car is a tad more powerful (intake mods), much better brakes, 100 kg lighter, but I only pinched 0.12sec off my last PB.

Also, the friend in the front has a similarly upgraded 156 JTS Selespeed but still with all the trim in and he beats me just by being a better driver
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 02:22:03 PM
The funny thing is, that the car is a tad more powerful (intake mods), much better brakes, 100 kg lighter, but I only pinched 0.12sec off my last PB.

Also, the friend in the front has a similarly upgraded 156 JTS Selespeed but still with all the trim in and he beats me just by being a better driver

With a selespeed? Must be a typo ;D. Not a fan of the selespeed after owning two GTs in selespeeed.

Yeah I found most modifications are pretty pointless besides brake pads and tyres for track days. But it's hard to tell as you would need to test them back to back and conditions are always changing.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 21, 2021, 02:53:01 PM
With a selespeed? Must be a typo ;D. Not a fan of the selespeed after owning two GTs in selespeeed.

You need to take my selespeed for a "Spirited drive".  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 02:58:24 PM
With a selespeed? Must be a typo ;D. Not a fan of the selespeed after owning two GTs in selespeeed.

You need to take my selespeed for a "Spirited drive".  ;)

I can see why you would like them when they are tuned correctly but I prefer manual all day for track duties.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 22, 2021, 09:11:37 AM
I can see why you would like them when they are tuned correctly but I prefer manual all day for track duties.

I took my JTS sele to the track too. I actually enjoyed it and would prefer it to a manual. Now my car had some issues, one being that previous owners destroyed 3rd gear syncros while driving with semi-broken selespeed, and that JTS is weaker than TS when as is. Both issues can be addressed, but I can't be bothered, especially so that I'm going to race another car next season.

So as for selespeed on the track.

Pros:
1. Never a misshift. I certainly lost a few good laps to getting lost between gears.
2. Rev matching downshifts with no effort. This is a big one - I can't heel-toe so downshifts are rough and take attention off the track. Click and forget is so much better, not to mention the buttery smooth rev matching.

Cons:
1. Upshifts on its own when hits the limiter.
2. The limiter is 5000 rpm lower.
3. Requires some periodical maintenance and possibly repairs. This a minor one, as once you set it up once, you're good for quite some time.

And while its upshifts don't feel quick, it seems like they are on par with a manual.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 22, 2021, 09:16:04 AM
Yeah I found most modifications are pretty pointless besides brake pads and tyres for track days. But it's hard to tell as you would need to test them back to back and conditions are always changing.

Lots of the upgrades work, it's just that driver mod and seat time beats a lot of them too. Especially shaving off some 4 kg of roof liner.

In my opinion, adjustable coilovers are a must (but you can get away with some sporty suspension for some time), obviously brakes. All the other stuff works too, just does not translate straight to lap times. Polybushes, rose-jointed arms, braces and so on.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 22, 2021, 12:22:15 PM
Yeah I found most modifications are pretty pointless besides brake pads and tyres for track days. But it's hard to tell as you would need to test them back to back and conditions are always changing.

Lots of the upgrades work, it's just that driver mod and seat time beats a lot of them too. Especially shaving off some 4 kg of roof liner.

In my opinion, adjustable coilovers are a must (but you can get away with some sporty suspension for some time), obviously brakes. All the other stuff works too, just does not translate straight to lap times. Polybushes, rose-jointed arms, braces and so on.

Yeah I was having this exact discussion with a friend. He is an avid iracer in the sim world but has never taken a car to the track. His criteria for a track car was that he wants to push a car on a track hard. He is talking about coil overs and sway bars etc and I told him to start going to a track in a half decent car with some ebc style brake pads and michellin tyres and go from there. In any sim game you can get the perfect lap after crashing 1000 times. In real life, just building up the courage to brake later than your previous braking point is a big thing. But it takes a long time to find the right braking point and it changes per track ;D. Conditions such as weather, lighting, grip levels change throughout a track day. Your car changes from track to track day as well on occasions. As you said warsch it's the driver mod and seat time that counts the most.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 05:09:19 PM
Probably won't be applying for any tailor positions but at least I won't cut myself on metal. Pvc is $20, glue $10, material $10.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 05:15:22 PM
It looked a bit better in my head  ::)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 05:20:46 PM
Alfa romeo 156 front seat air bag and hand rest removal screws. Save someone destroying a seat in the future. Was going to use this as a sim racer seat but too heavy anyway.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 05:21:15 PM
Hand rest
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 05:23:26 PM
A bit more weight saving plus don't want plastic projectiles in the cabin.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 23, 2021, 09:33:18 PM
Just do me one favor, for your own sake don't place the Fire Extinguisher in the passenger foot well where so many people do. Otherwise you may as well just bolt a 1.5 Kg lead weight there instead, as doing so makes it completely useless.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 23, 2021, 09:43:02 PM
Just do me one favor, for your own sake don't place the Fire Extinguisher in the passenger foot well where so many people do. Otherwise you may as well just bolt a 1.5 Kg lead weight there instead, as doing so makes it completely useless.

I saw you congratulate the fire extinguisher in between the drivers seat and driver's door in the rally car thread. That makes more sense with a 6 point harness on I guess. But doesn't it also make it more likely to go off in an impact?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 01:35:00 AM
Why would mounting it so make it more likely for the Extinguisher to accidentally discharge? They are designed to be near impossible to go off inadvertently.

For those of you unfamiliar with this discussion -

Basically a fire extinguisher is completely useless unless you can reach it!

So picture yourself in your track car, strapped in with your racing harness, as you take one of the more challenging corners at fill tilt, you accidentally slide off the track onto the soft grass, your outer wheels dig in and you flip onto your roof. As your hanging there tightly strapped in, quite safe and unharmed, but unable to move at all, you await the crash crew to arrive to extricate you from your indignant situation.

Suddenly there is a puff of smoke from somewhere, "OH CRAP!" Instantly the whole cabin is filled with blinding smoke and you hear the crackling of flames . . . . . you reach for the extinguisher . . . . . all the way over there, in the passenger foot well, (or any of the other idiotic places that I have seen so many drivers mount the extinguisher) go on, there it is, go for it, nope, not going to happen. BUGGER!

The extinguisher should be mounted in a position so -

A/ That with your eyes closed you can simply drop your arm and it naturally falls to hand, without you being able to see or move, AT ALL.

B/ You are able to un-clip the retaining straps with just the one hand only and easily remove from the retaining bracket. Again, while blind and unable to move, wiggle, or even turn your head any amount at all.

C/ Also, the extinguisher must be of a type where the safety pin/clip can be removed and it be operated easily while blind & wearing racing gloves.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 24, 2021, 07:15:53 AM
Thanks bazz. That makes sense as I have had the fire extinguisher in the passenger front seat rail holes and found that I have to undo the seat belt on a normal chair to get to it. So it would make sense for rallies, hill climbs and sprints. But if you are racing and another car hits your door, could that not have an impact on the fire extinguisher?

I think it was this user vid on a clk gtr le mans car that showed they have a switch which turns on foam or fire extinguishers in the cabin which really shows the separation between race car and road car. And the air Jacks would be super cool to have as well 8)

https://youtu.be/Lp-I5cRFrZU
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 24, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
I agree that you have to be able to reach the extinguisher while seated and strapped in.

However, they absolutely go off on their own. That happens, I  personally know a person who had it happen.

That being said, mine is right under my legs
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
But if you are racing and another car hits your door, could that not have an impact on the fire extinguisher

Anything is possible, but the recommended location is to your left mounted on/above/near the floor tunnel/hump. As shown here -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/)

That being said, mine is right under my legs

And as described in my scenario above,  it makes it completely useless, as being between your legs you need to lean forward to reach & release it. Your pinned to your seat upside down unable to move whatsoever, remember.

Still, it's much better than the passenger footwell.  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 24, 2021, 04:58:42 PM
But if you are racing and another car hits your door, could that not have an impact on the fire extinguisher

Anything is possible, but the recommended location is to your left mounted on/above/near the floor tunnel/hump. As shown here -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/)

That makes sense
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
As they say, timing is everything -

(https://www.vintage-mustang.com/attachments/i-wish-for-a-fire-extinguisher-jpg.471346/)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on September 25, 2021, 09:47:35 AM
One of these - probably the MFM400S for a sedan. Weight not so much of an issue

We have something similar to the LWM50 in our Formula Ford.  Weight and packaging a real issue.

https://www.conceptracegear.com.au/motorsport/fire-extinguishers/

Hand held extinguishers are not much use if you want to manage a fire you can't access instantly.  Although fires are rare, a Suppression Kit is a good investment given any significant fire will total your car.  Its not the damage to the plastic, wiring, electrical or engine that's the issue.  Even a small fire will stuff the metallurgy of the chassis.

Colin
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 25, 2021, 10:17:21 AM
One of these - probably the MFM400S for a sedan. Weight not so much of an issue

We have something similar to the LWM50 in our Formula Ford.  Weight and packaging a real issue.

https://www.conceptracegear.com.au/motorsport/fire-extinguishers/

Hand held extinguishers are not much use if you want to manage a fire you can't access instantly.  Although fires are rare, a Suppression Kit is a good investment given any significant fire will total your car.  Its not the damage to the plastic, wiring, electrical or engine that's the issue.  Even a small fire will stuff the metallurgy of the chassis.

Colin

Thanks Colin. I can highly recommend getting a fire extinguisher and bracket from a motorsport store. I bought one of eBay and checked the pressure Guage on the fire extinguisher and it says none. I than got another one as a refund but don't trust either of them.

Didn't know what a suppression kit is so Googled it. https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/diy/how-to-fit-a-fire-suppression-system-to-your-car

I am starting to realize a professional race car is probably more than a road car with a stripped interior ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 25, 2021, 10:21:26 AM
This epoxy metal paint is perfect compared to Primer, paint, clear coat. Also fills in the scratches left by the chisel. The vertical strips over the wheel wells probably couldn't be done with dry ice any way. Unless you throw it really hard or used some sort sand blaster lol. My attempt at a mechanic joke. A bit rusty...
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 25, 2021, 10:28:12 AM
From repco. A can can easily do a whole boot and part of the interior with 3 coats.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 28, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 28, 2021, 03:45:59 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Reckon it'll be good for at least an extra 5 km/h down the straight. ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 28, 2021, 08:32:44 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Reckon it'll be good for at least an extra 5 km/h down the straight. ;)

Damn I thought it was 100kg of down force as well ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 10:34:55 AM
Why a $1000 alfa 156 makes more sense than a $50k manual e46 m3?

E46 m3 is 250kw and 1500kg which if you divide kilowatts by weight you get 0.16. In the alfa if you divide 120kw by 1250 standard, I would say potentially 1100kg now you get 0.11. So its 0.16 to 0.11. However you take turns with 400kg less in the alfa and you can run slicks.

Essentially the power to weight is not much different but you go into turns with 400kg less and you can run the car on full slicks in the dry.

The other great thing is you can put a proper bucket seat, 6 point harness and roll cage in the alfa. And if you bin the alfa than you go buy another one whereas you don't have insurance for the m3 on the track. And even insuring the m3 for $50k a year makes it a lot more expensive. Plus you don't need to do $10,000 sub frame repairs on an e46 m3.

I would have to go over the numbers of the touring car championship race cars but the 156 was very competitive against the e36 and e46 m3 and this may be why. But gt3 cars are usually around the same weight and the m3 could have been restricted in kw in race car form similar to the current ferrari v porsche in le mans for example.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 01:03:17 PM
For all the gran turismo fans
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 01:04:09 PM
Letting everyone who didn't know that alfa has been around since 1910 and racing for over 100 years now.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
Jack Brabham won the Drivers world championship in F1 in 59,60 & 66.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 29, 2021, 05:37:37 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Where did you get the stripes from? Iím looking for them for my GTA
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 06:08:28 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Where did you get the stripes from? Iím looking for them for my GTA

$50 delivered for 2m in length.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LE-MANS-MARTINI-Race-stripe-2-meters-gloss-laminated-decal-sticker-Classic-race-/153131277771?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

These are the door numbers
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-retro-Classic-Car-MARTINI-RACE-NUMBERS-Ideal-for-PORSCHE-ASTON-JAGUAR-/153071107206?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

Type in Martini into that Ebay store and they have lots of varieties.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 29, 2021, 08:05:57 PM
Type in Martini into that Ebay store and they have lots of varieties.

I've tried that but didn't exactly likes what I found. Thanks for the links, that'll help me with new car prep. Heaps of things to do, but I'm going for the livery first
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 02, 2021, 03:33:10 PM
I think I have a chip on my shoulder from removing the sound deadening.

Tips for anyone doing this themselves:
Wear ear muffs and eye protection
Wear a face mask when spraying
If you are right handed than be careful with the angle on the chisel on the passenger side of the car as you can put a hole on the wheel well in the boot or the floor of the car if you get the angles wrong. Theorectically ::).
Get a medium weight hammer as a heavy hammer will give you biceps and triceps like Thor but you won't do more than an hour at a time.
Use dry ice if you can.
Sand it down to bare metal and than spray as I just sprayed over the  final bits of glue as I would be here till christmas doing this sound deadening.
Ensure you have basic ventilation when spraying anything.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 02, 2021, 03:34:41 PM
Any small squares of sound deadening are usually covering up a hole so I left the ones just under the door as don't need water potentially getting in.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 02, 2021, 05:16:32 PM
Got some tow hook straps but need to find a high strength bolt to fit them. From digging up some threads the standard thread is m16x2.0? Anyone know where you can buy these 2 bolts?

Also you will need to cut the standard holes in the bumper for these tow straps to fit so probably don't need them if you have a road registered car. Just buy the standard eye hook as below for both front and rear.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 02, 2021, 05:19:13 PM
This is what was in the car. I have had a car towed on one of these and it bent after one tow so can't imagine it would be the best if you are in a Sand trap or grass hence why I went with the straps.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 03, 2021, 07:03:23 PM
What do you guys think of a bolt like this for the towing straps? M16 x 2.0 by 40mm grade 8.8. No idea what any of that means besides that I measured the standard tow hook as as 30mm of thread plus the tow strap is about 5mm thick.

https://www.boltandnut.com.au/m16-x-2-00p-metric-coarse-galvanised-hex-set-screws-high-tensile-class-8-8
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 05, 2021, 06:12:05 PM
The valleys in between the ribs are very thin metal so very easy to chip or put a hole through. It also goes on a decline from the front of the car to the middle.

180 grit sandpaper doesn't do much. 60 grit is a bit better. Was going to go down to to bare metal but don't have the equipment to go in the valleys.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 05, 2021, 06:12:58 PM
Hind sight is 20/20 so get a thinner chisel for the valleys.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 05, 2021, 06:14:05 PM
Aesthetically it looks better and there is a lot of sound deadening in the driver and passenger footwells. This just one coat.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 05, 2021, 07:22:55 PM
Wonder if a Power Chisel would be a better option, or perhaps an Air Hammer

They have various attachments that can be fitted.

Just a thought.

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 05, 2021, 07:54:12 PM
Wonder if a Power Chisel would be a better option, or perhaps an Air Hammer

They have various attachments that can be fitted.

Just a thought.

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Some may say an excellent thought as I didn't know such a thing exists :o. However wouldn't surprise me if I ended up with more downforce/ground effect holes that need to be welded up. But I would highly recommend a power tool over doing this with a 5000 year old method like an ancient Egyptian.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 05, 2021, 11:20:46 PM
However wouldn't surprise me if I ended up with more downforce/ground effect holes that need to be welded up.

It's an Air Hammer/Power Chisel . . . . one uses it with a subtle touch . . . . not like a Jack Hammer.  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 08, 2021, 07:47:05 PM
However wouldn't surprise me if I ended up with more downforce/ground effect holes that need to be welded up.

It's an Air Hammer/Power Chisel . . . . one uses it with a subtle touch . . . . not like a Jack Hammer.  ;)

Mate the metal is pretty thin in some areas. Such as the rear little lip that joins onto the rear of the car.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 08, 2021, 07:47:33 PM
After 1 coat
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 09, 2021, 06:12:06 PM
Race lights/yellow wrap with with halogen style effect. Looks good from a distance but crinkled pretty hard on application. Turns out another heat gun related issue as you need a heat gun to take out the crinkles.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 09, 2021, 06:55:55 PM
Tried a yellow wrap but this from a mate and its some professional one that now I found out needs a heat gun and multiple people to apply. One mistake and the whole piece needs to go in the bin. Very unforgiving.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 09, 2021, 07:01:13 PM
Thought I would try on a simpler surface but still the same as one crease turns into a lot of creases and it stays in the structure. Turns out a Heat gun is an absolute must for it reset to its normal structure.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 11, 2021, 12:17:44 PM
Here is what the towing strap will screw into. This requires the foam bit behind the bumper to come off or be cut up to fit. This will need a much bigger hole in the bumper as the D Bracket is lower as well.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 11, 2021, 12:40:45 PM
Pretty proud of this idea as I will use the screw for the metal bracket. It's a D Bracket as well. Probably over kill as it says it's a door strap but almost looks like a towing strap. But it's $15 delivered so probably cheaper than trying to figure out a solution at my Race Supplier - Bunnings Racing Division.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 12, 2021, 09:01:46 AM
Here is what the towing strap will screw into. This requires the foam bit behind the bumper to come off or be cut up to fit. This will need a much bigger hole in the bumper as the D Bracket is lower as well.

I donít like the angle of force that will be applied to the plate. With its thickness it can just crack and snap. Unless itís some expensive brand name strap. Hence why I stick to standard eye bolts. Yes, they bend, but so what? They are also free.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 12, 2021, 10:14:18 AM
Here is what the towing strap will screw into. This requires the foam bit behind the bumper to come off or be cut up to fit. This will need a much bigger hole in the bumper as the D Bracket is lower as well.

I donít like the angle of force that will be applied to the plate. With its thickness it can just crack and snap. Unless itís some expensive brand name strap. Hence why I stick to standard eye bolts. Yes, they bend, but so what? They are also free.

Most towing straps are around $30 and say they are fia or cams compliant. The red sparco one was about the same but than again I bought sparco driving shoes and they fell apart after 1 year. Yeah I was thinking about using the standard eye hooks but already have the bumper off. If the car is wedged in the gravel than I thought this would have better angles for a tow truck to get it out.

Anyone have these D Brackets snap on them?

It does say its heat treated.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on October 12, 2021, 10:21:42 AM
Agree with use of the standard eye bolt.  However Schedule B (r) in the CAMS regs requires a 40mm dia "test tool" must be able to pass through the eye.  Its for this reason most people use an OMP, Sparco or whatever tow strap.  The return loop in the strap easily complies with the Schedule B (r) requirement.
Schedule B (r) also requires the tow device MUST support dragging the vehicle with all wheels locked across a sealed surface.  The recovery team MUST know what they are doing.  Seen some very brutal attempts at vehicle recovery with disastrous results!!
The tow strap plate could be bolted to the tow "eye" via the largest dia SHCS you can fit plus suitable flat washers.  Use a stainless steel nylock nut. 
The vehicle MUST be towed in line with the axis of the eye bolt or it may bend.  These eye bolts are drop forged like a spanner and "should" be pretty tough. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 12, 2021, 10:30:38 AM
The tow strap plate could be bolted to the tow "eye" via the largest dia SHCS you can fit plus suitable flat washers.  Use a stainless steel nylock nut. 

Thanks Colin. Have you got any pictures of what this looks like? I bought the grade 8.8 bolts but I am guessing this is something different?

I did a search and this is a socket head cap screw. https://www.aftfasteners.com/socket-cap-screws-dimensions-and-mechanical-properties/

So essentially the main difference between  a normal bolt and this is that you need a male end socket to unscrew it? It's not that that the head comes off?

Or are you saying it should the male end bit of thread that goes in the towing hole and you put a separate nut on the end?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on October 12, 2021, 12:58:44 PM
See attached image of what I knocked together for my 75.  The M10 shackle is rated to 1000kg and complies with AS 2741.  M10 refers to the pin diameter - not the "bow" or "D" section.
You could use one of these to fix the tow strap to the eye bolt. 
I joined 2 tow straps as the tow "loop" welded to the 75 chassis rail is a fair way back from the front bumper.  One tow strap would have been too short.
The two straps pictured are joined via an M10 SHCS.  These are class 10.9 - pretty tough!!  Around 1100MPa as I recall.
The Alfa eye bolt pictured (from the wifes Giulietta) has a 26mm wide eye - so technically not legal for motorsport use.  Must be no less than 40mm.   
If you use the biggest dia SHCS that will fit through the hole in the tow strap plate (DO NOT DRILL OUT OR MODIFY THE TOW STRAP IN ANY WAY) and a couple of M10 HEAVY square washers you should be good to go.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
Phew, I just had 4 weekends of race meets straight. The car handled it just fine. And with some solid seat time I was able to get close to my 2019 records and even beat a couple. Which is while nice but slightly disappointing as the car seems a bit quicker to accelerate.

I've also officially became a Competition Convenor for AROCA QLD chapter. And now trying to scramble ideas how to lure new and returning folks into sprints, racing and so on. So any ideas are welcome.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 13, 2021, 10:42:01 AM
See attached image of what I knocked together for my 75.  The M10 shackle is rated to 1000kg and complies with AS 2741.  M10 refers to the pin diameter - not the "bow" or "D" section.
You could use one of these to fix the tow strap to the eye bolt. 
I joined 2 tow straps as the tow "loop" welded to the 75 chassis rail is a fair way back from the front bumper.  One tow strap would have been too short.
The two straps pictured are joined via an M10 SHCS.  These are class 10.9 - pretty tough!!  Around 1100MPa as I recall.
The Alfa eye bolt pictured (from the wifes Giulietta) has a 26mm wide eye - so technically not legal for motorsport use.  Must be no less than 40mm.   
If you use the biggest dia SHCS that will fit through the hole in the tow strap plate (DO NOT DRILL OUT OR MODIFY THE TOW STRAP IN ANY WAY) and a couple of M10 HEAVY square washers you should be good to go.

Thanks Colin. I appreciate you and Warsch, Bazz etc all sharing the knowledge! Saves a lot of false starts and dead ends.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 13, 2021, 10:52:39 AM
Phew, I just had 4 weekends of race meets straight. The car handled it just fine. And with some solid seat time I was able to get close to my 2019 records and even beat a couple. Which is while nice but slightly disappointing as the car seems a bit quicker to accelerate.

I've also officially became a Competition Convenor for AROCA QLD chapter. And now trying to scramble ideas how to lure new and returning folks into sprints, racing and so on. So any ideas are welcome.

That's awesome! Congrats.

My key suggestion would be to make it very simple and show pictures for beginners. Obviously you need to put up the terms and conditions but start with what you need for a sprint which is a fire extinguisher, how it's mounted and that's about it. Show pictures.

Everyone thinks you need a roll cage etc.

Describe the sprint format as 6x sessions by 15 minutes. Maybe show an entire sprint session from pits to pits as example on video to show no one is banging doors and trading paint.

Tell people what a yellow, red and black flag means as I thought the session was cancelled on a red flag.

Show people how to mount the timing device and the website the timing device shows the time.

Add some tips like ensure your tyres are in good condition and get some proper brake pads. Don't need slotted discs or braided brake lines.

Go with a full tank of fuel on your first one and after subsequent ones go on 3/4 or half if you driving to the track.

Discuss driving to the track v trailers. Tell people they can hire a trailer from a servo for $150 or so. Talk about towing capacities for the tow car as racecar plus servo trailer equals say 1700kg. Potentially talk about tow bars.

Also make it simple that all you need is a CAMS license for $80 with no prior experience.

And update the website with the entry form early or do it through the Motorsport Australia/CAMS portal as thats very easy to use.

All this I had to figure out from scratch, forums, calling cams and talking to people at sprints. Quite a lot for someone to figure out before they venture out on a track.

Also mention you have instructors that can help on a warm up session and ensure you are the checked in at 8am etc.

Also tell them about pit options as at Phillip Island you pay for a pit but it's first come first serve and beats standing out in the wind and rain all day.

The reason I started this thread is so people can realize you can buy a cheap 156 and go pretty hard for not a lot of money compared to a lot used cars nowadays. And there is no point of people making the same mistakes everyone makes at the start of anything.

As a funny thing you could do is call it going from SIM Racing to the Track. Get all the iracer, gran turismo, acc and forza people to do it in real life. There is a great comradery at the track with heaps of other car nuts all being there in unity for the same reason.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 11:16:21 AM
These are some good ideas, some of that I've already done in the capacity of just a competitor. But maybe I wasn't persistent enough but I'll obviously continue. I'm just thinking that the auditory and the media wasn't right.

I plan a series of posts explaining the process etc.

It's all fun and safe but then you run into stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4M2Qy0r24I
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 13, 2021, 11:28:35 AM
These are some good ideas, some of that I've already done in the capacity of just a competitor. But maybe I wasn't persistent enough but I'll obviously continue. I'm just thinking that the auditory and the media wasn't right.

I plan a series of posts explaining the process etc.

It's all fun and safe but then you run into stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4M2Qy0r24I

Yeah you should mention something about the risks and that everyone is a hero until they crash. But there a lot of people out there that are not trying set qualifying times at the expense of others. If people want to do that than a Sprint isn't for then and do it in a qualifying session at a race day. Also the marshals are there and can be talked to ala Christian Horner ;D

Maybe chop up all overtaking moves and put it in its own montage to show you can overtake on the straights when both people know what is happening. If a car is a lot faster than you than stay on the racing line and back of slightly and let them pass. Do not stop, brake unnecessarily or try to get out of the way in an erratic fashion. At my very first track day I indicated and got off the racing line as there was an r35 gtr behind and I couldn't keep him behind me for ever which is not how you do things.

Another thing that helps is watching YouTube videos of v8 supercar drivers at the track to find the right line. Than watch someone in a car similar to yours to set the right time. Or even break down the video of a v8 supercar driver and yourself setting a good lap time as in vic there are only 3 tracks so the racing line hasn't changed for many years ;D. I took off about 2 seconds at Sandown just following someone really good in a car with similar speeds to mine and ruthlessly copied their line which probably fast tracked my time about a couple of years.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 13, 2021, 04:11:38 PM
Warsch - another vein of blog posts could be around working in a small garage efficiently as the new generation of racers won't be buying houses with big garages any more. Unfortunately most people will end up in a apartment or town house with a tiny garage if they do really well so technically you need to spend a million dollars or more in Melbourne or Sydney to work on a cheap alfa ;D. Car storage in a container is about $50 a week and some workshops also have storage options for a cost at a warehouse.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 04:28:59 PM
That hits home so much. I even have some pictures.

That's me replacing the whole suspension in a multilevel car park. In someone else's spot too:
(https://a.d-cd.net/sgAAAgIFIeA-960.jpg)

And here's me installing poly bushes in a k i t c h e n (apparently the word is being replaced by SPAM when I just leave it):
(https://a.d-cd.net/rQAAAgIFIeA-960.jpg)

Older unit would have separate garages, so there's no problem at all. Though my lease wasn't renewed so we moved from 2-garage place to a place with 1 tiny garage which is all clogged with our stuff. I will be doing all the work just on a street. At least Queensland climate is in favour of such activities.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 13, 2021, 06:47:32 PM
Nice work!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 15, 2021, 11:08:48 AM
How important is the hazard light switch in a race car? Are there any situations or regulations that require it? I would rather cut it out than figure out a new mounting point as got rid of all the metal brackets under the 3 air ventilation switches (gives it more of a fighter jet feel ;)). I will be replacing the 3 guages with aftermarket fuel gauges, water and oil temp as I don't need a clock and the water temp guage is useless in the 156 and 159 imo as they only have one wire going into the whole Guage Cluster.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 16, 2021, 04:05:22 PM
Anyone have any tips for taking out the sound deadening. I bought a can that freezes electrical circuits from jay car but it doesnt make any difference as some youtube vids claim. I have used a blunt chisel before but that takes forever and leaves residue. I bought a sharp chisel this time but it is stripping the paint of as well so I will may just do it and paint over it. Ideally it would be a 40 degree day so it heats up but not waiting to summer. Would a hair dryer make any difference?

It's coming along. In some ways this is the best mod you can do to a non registered  car as all you need is a hammer, chisel and 3x spray cans @$15 each.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 16, 2021, 04:06:17 PM
Barn find martini 156 touring car ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 16, 2021, 04:08:37 PM
Definetely need a heat gun for wrapping curves. This is all you really need besides some surface cleaner and wrap application spray. I found that the application spray needs to wiped off before application for stripe and the yellow wrap.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 16, 2021, 04:10:27 PM
Up coming historic livery front end. Stay tuned as I may have gone too far as I did the grill and mesh "Indian red" which kind of looks like some of the original 8c red/early ferraris/amarante/brown.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 16, 2021, 04:13:15 PM
We will see how it turns out. Once again this only cost $5 as got it on special from repco as an enamel spray.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 17, 2021, 12:18:03 PM
Wrapping is hard. If you use an ebay heat gun than use the lowest setting as you will burn the wrap. Thankfully this is a race car and not a concourse car.

This is what a 156 could like like if you do just the side livery like some.old school alfas. The last one is how it's going to look bit I am just patching the "straight" lines.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 17, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rear is done. Once front is done than only thing left will be white wheels. The camera doesn't pick up the red well in certain lighting conditions.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 02:07:50 PM
Either that or it has just faded to that lovely "Dusty Pink" colour, as it does.  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 17, 2021, 04:43:37 PM
Either that or it has just faded to that lovely "Dusty Pink" colour, as it does.  :)

Yeah the rear bumper is slightly faded but the rest of the car is pretty red 8)

Cleaning up the drivers footwell and came across this under the steering rack. Are all alfa 156 owners lancia owners as well? Maybe this is the last "real" lancia lol. Or maybe we just fiat owners ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 17, 2021, 11:07:15 PM
Didn't even think there was a solution but apparently things like 3M Adhesive Cleaner can be used to clean off off the glue residue from underneath the sound deadening as Sanding isn't a great a solution unless you use a super low grit and the metal is thin anyway. Essentially if you used dry ice and adhesive cleaner you would would get a much better result in a quicker time frame. Next time will definetely be trying that. A few people use heat guns instead of dry ice which is $25 off ebay so should have tried that as well.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 20, 2021, 01:09:46 PM
I ordered two sets of wheel stud conversion kits (well, as is studs and nits) for both of my Alfas (again, for the two that are staying, there are two more to be sold) from Demon Tweeks.

Hopefully I picked the right length of 60 mm for the studs. The whole ordeal was mostly driven by the fact, that 17x9 Koya wheels that I have have too narrow bolt wells to accommodate standard bolts. And since I had to buy a solution, I opted to make my life more convenient.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 20, 2021, 07:33:56 PM
I ordered two sets of wheel stud conversion kits (well, as is studs and nits) for both of my Alfas (again, for the two that are staying, there are two more to be sold) from Demon Tweeks.

Hopefully I picked the right length of 60 mm for the studs. The whole ordeal was mostly driven by the fact, that 17x9 Koya wheels that I have have too narrow bolt wells to accommodate standard bolts. And since I had to buy a solution, I opted to make my life more convenient.

Damn 17x9. Did you have to roll the guards? What size tyre are you running? And thats 17x9 front and back?

Favorite mod so far; ferrari horn button for the 308 I think.

ďThe Ferrari is a dream. People dream of owning this special vehicle and for most, it will remain a dream apart from those lucky few.Ē

― Enzo Ferrari.

Yeah nah Enzo mate, got me a ferrari now ;D :o :P
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 20, 2021, 11:28:17 PM
That tremor you all just felt folks was Enzo turning in his grave.  ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 20, 2021, 11:43:23 PM
That tremor you all just felt folks was Enzo turning in his grave.  ;D

Or maybe it was a tremor of joy ;) so he can get out of purgatory as this horn button in an alfa lightened his penance.

For Enzo, defeating an Alfa Romeo marque that had been so important in his racing life, it was with an understandable mix of regret and nostalgia that he said of that win:  "I feel like I've killed my own mother."

https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/magazine/articles/ferrari-the-birth-of-the-legend

Can't tell which is the real alfa ferrari below
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 21, 2021, 12:31:54 AM
Speaking of ferrari, this is what happened during the first major lock down after wine and ebay ;D. I clocked bburago 1:24 with the 550 about the last one made in Italy. From there they are made in China and the engine bays don't have engines anymore, just plastic covers like real life nowadays.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 21, 2021, 01:03:55 AM
Let me guess, to your wifes delight you also have a playroom full of train sets?  ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 21, 2021, 08:42:12 AM
Let me guess, to your wifes delight you also have a playroom full of train sets?  ;D

Lol some people get it and I am a connoisseur of pininfarina silhouettes. Others want kids to play with my toys. Now they all sit in a box ;D.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 21, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Damn 17x9. Did you have to roll the guards? What size tyre are you running? And thats 17x9 front and back?

Well, I got those phat rims from Sydney when I saw them on Gumtree. They were off some racing 156 GTA. Can't really pass rare 5x98 wheels. They absolutely don't fit standard 156 guards but I since got 147 GTA, so hopefully they'll fit. I guards there are just flared enough. I shall see soon.

(https://a.d-cd.net/0KAAAgEh8-A-960.jpg)

(https://a.d-cd.net/LEAAAgAgS-A-960.jpg)

(https://a.d-cd.net/jEAAAgAgS-A-960.jpg)

Twin spark Alfas don't need wheels that wide, I think. Now, for the GTA they should be just right. I'll run same 17x9 on all 4 corners, though the front tires will be 245 and rears 235. Dang, it's about time I start the build threat of my own.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 21, 2021, 08:12:08 PM
Damn that's wide. It's great consumer advice for a fellow twin sparker that 17x9s is too wide :D.

A great thread that you could start Warsch is potentially a PB In Car Video of Australia Tracks in the 156/147. Everyone can post up their PB lap footage from in the car with their car specs and people can compare lines. I learned the Bathurst line from the Lewis Hamilton challenge in GT Sport. Some wont share but this way people can see a good line before they head out to the track. Not sure if it will take off but happy to add to it once the lockdowns are over in Melbourne. And as Winton and Phillip Island are regional vic, probably won't be let out there for a while even though apparently we can fly internationally in november or December which makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 23, 2021, 11:58:23 AM
Why you shouldn't get towing straps for a registered 156. Did the hole with just a normal drill end as dont have a saw.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 23, 2021, 02:08:50 PM
Me alfa ferrari
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 24, 2021, 06:53:09 PM
Another weekend gone
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 25, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
It's good that people watch racing from a distance  :)

Though my car looks worse with all the paint flaky
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 26, 2021, 07:39:22 PM
It's good that people watch racing from a distance  :)

Though my car looks worse with all the paint flaky

Up close the wrap is like a rag tag quilt around corners and complex curves. It's easy to do flat surfaces but not so for curves by yourself so thankfully people watch from a distance 8).

After watching some YouTube vids, the vivid x wrap seems to be very forgiving which is what I would get next time round.

I also realized why the engine is called a twin spark! Bought 4 spark plugs, 2 went in and 2 were the wrong size. Yet both of the covers made that pop noise for a spark plug. So you need 8 spark plugs, 4 of each. It's a race engine!

In the first pic I was why does that make a spark plug pop noise :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 26, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
Also on the side of the oil filler, one of them had oil on it due to previous spilling oil. Quick clean and good to go.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 26, 2021, 09:50:47 PM
From wiki

Alfa Romeo Twin Spark (TS) technology was used for the first time in the Alfa Romeo Grand Prix car in 1914.[1] In the early 1960s it was used in their race cars (GTA, TZ) to enable it to achieve a higher power output from its engines. And in the early and middle 1980s, Alfa Romeo incorporated this technology into their road cars to enhance their performance and to comply with stricter emission controls.

I just thought it was some marketing stuff like fake bonnet scoops or advertising twin cams lol. Alfa wonderfully over engineer cars.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 10:13:37 AM
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 28, 2021, 11:11:24 AM
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).

Twinspark is used for emissions in these engines, not HP

The JTS (when new) is cleaner (emissions), but then (like all the other brands), it soots up

Youíre average TS didnít make it to 150K km without the cam lobes wearing off or the selespeed confounding the average mechanic making the car an economic write off
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
I'd argue about TS not making it to 150kkm. Either way, we've dynoed two TSs with 200-300kkm and a couple of JTS with 140/260 kkm and TSs were heaps more powerful. The TS with 300km didn't have worn out cams. Never looked into mine, but I assume it's healthy too.

Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 12:44:11 PM
I'd argue about TS not making it to 150kkm. Either way, we've dynoed two TSs with 200-300kkm and a couple of JTS with 140/260 kkm and TSs were heaps more powerful. The TS with 300km didn't have worn out cams. Never looked into mine, but I assume it's healthy too.

Just out of curiosity, what type of Dyno did you use? A rolling road or accelerometer?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 01:47:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, what type of Dyno did you use? A rolling road or accelerometer?

Stationary dyno with rollers.

Though the data is backed up by our observations at QR and Lakeside.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 01:54:51 PM
Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.

I wouldn't say incompetent, but more unfamiliar.

Many a mechanic with good intentions and trying to help out an unfortunate client have come to grief with selespeed units, not because of lack of skills, but just simply not having the correct diagnostic software and a lack of experience and  with the units.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 03:29:13 PM
Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.

I wouldn't say incompetent, but more unfamiliar.

Many a mechanic with good intentions and trying to help out an unfortunate client have come to grief with selespeed units, not because of lack of skills, but just simply not having the correct diagnostic software and a lack of experience and  with the units.

Also the price of fixing it. I had one sele GT jts and it cost something like $2k to fix at an alfa mechanic because of the pump for the lower gears of whatever and the 2nd hand part was $800. I tried fixing it myself based on changing the o rings as other alfa forums said but it did nothing but than gave it to the mechanic. Thankfully car wouldn't start as didn't realize the hydraulic fluid is located at the top of the engine bay so essentially would have ran it without hydraulic fluid. And I couldn't find a workshop manual on the gt selespeed. But than bought another gt selespeed as the shift was way crisper than the first GT even after first one was fixed. Alfa's technology capability is high but there are no redundancy systems in place and the parts market has not enough new supply so the prices are high and they feed on each other and which is why alfas are worth what they are in many cases. I was watching the ratarossa YouTube channel and a Ferrari 308 fuel sender unit n the UK is cheaper than a 159 fuel sender unit in aus. This also leads to deferred maintenance and a cheap alfa can cost you a lot to get running right. But once it's running well they are usually very dependable and only the horror stories are spread about as no one cares when your alfa runs very well. Plus if you take to an alfa mechanic they know what's wrong with and will tell you whereas getting serviced at ultra tune could lead to more problems and they won't tell you what's wrong with it as they don't know.

One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

There a lot of great things such as looks, chassis, suspension, brakes, certain characteristics of the engines etc. If you value what an Italian engineer values than you will love alfas.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 03:32:07 PM
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).

I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

You know, there could be some merit in this, my work car -  8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51423619794_2ec2856250.jpg)

I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.

Perhaps wishful thinking? Placebo affect?  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

You know, there could be some merit in this, my work car -  8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51423619794_2ec2856250.jpg)

I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.

Perhaps wishful thinking? Placebo affect?  ;)

That is a very tastefully done wagon!

I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 08:04:28 PM
I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.

Like I said, we did dyno the cars back to back. That being said, my friend got his JTS to perform - rebuild the head and skimmed it a bit and did some minor porting. After that it started to accelerate just like my car, we did some "drag" racing while doing circuit sprints. His car is selespeed and it seems like upshifts are on par with a manual. And downshift obviously are superior on a selespeed.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 08:22:59 PM
I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.

Like I said, we did dyno the cars back to back. That being said, my friend got his JTS to perform - rebuild the head and skimmed it a bit and did some minor porting. After that it started to accelerate just like my car, we did some "drag" racing while doing circuit sprints. His car is selespeed and it seems like upshifts are on par with a manual. And downshift obviously are superior on a selespeed.

That's probably why the alfaholics gta r use the Twin Spark https://www.alfaholics.com/our-cars/completed-builds/gta-r-290-021-far-east-market/

The  156 ts super turismo also used the Twin Spark from around 98 to 2003 https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/heritage/stories/alfa-romeo-156-superturismo

The later model was the 156 gta super 2000 which I presume had the ts still.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45676495@N05/27213364781

Major Championships won by the 156 include the 1998 and 1999 Italian Super Touring Car Championship (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2000 European Super Touring Car Cup (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2000 South American Super Touring Car Championship (Oscar Larrauri) 2001 and 2002 FIA European Touring Car Championship (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2003 FIA European Touring Car Championship (Gabriele Tarquini)

The Super 2000 rules were introduced in the European Touring Car Championship in 2002 to replace Super Touring, and to reduce the costs.

These cars still had 2 litre naturally aspirated engines ( a 4 cylinder in the case of the Alfa ) and around 270-280 hp, and a rev limit of 8500 rpm, but in the first year ( 2002 ) all cars raced with a 5 speed h pattern gearbox, instead of the 6 speed sequential gearboxes, that was used in the Super Touring cars.

At some point I want to compare the m3 touring cars to the 156 touring cars and maybe go through it season by season.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 29, 2021, 07:16:43 PM
The conduit makes the car look way more pro. 30mm diameter is enough for the main bulky wires. Could go less diameter for the boot. 10m length did the whole car.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 29, 2021, 07:18:07 PM
These 5 holes at the back of each floor well are just filled with sound deadening so dont chip them out. I used underbody spray to fill in the gaps.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 29, 2021, 07:26:19 PM
Another cool feature I found is that there is a "scoop" for the radiator for the air flow. The grills in the front bumper are real. In the GT they were fake grills from memory.

Also the factory cold air intake in both the 156 and 159 is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 29, 2021, 08:03:04 PM
The twinspark used by Alfaholics (Alfa75, 155, 164, etal) bears no relationship to the twinspark used in the 147/156/GT.  Itís a completely different engine, with a completely different lineage (heritage)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 29, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
The twinspark used by Alfaholics (Alfa75, 155, 164, etal) bears no relationship to the twinspark used in the 147/156/GT.  Itís a completely different engine, with a completely different lineage (heritage)

Thanks Craig. You are right and it's all explained here https://www.italicar.co.uk/blog/2021/3/2/history-of-alfa-romeo-twin-spark-engines

TWIN SPARK TIMELINE

A Racing Pedigree: 1914 - 1965

Got A New Motor: 1987 - 1995

A Brief Explanation Of Twin Spark Combustion

A Brave New World: 1993 - 1995

Non-Identical Twinnies: 1995 - 2010

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 02:23:37 PM
What do you guys think of a bolt like this for the towing straps? M16 x 2.0 by 40mm grade 8.8. No idea what any of that means besides that I measured the standard tow hook as as 30mm of thread plus the tow strap is about 5mm thick.

https://www.boltandnut.com.au/m16-x-2-00p-metric-coarse-galvanised-hex-set-screws-high-tensile-class-8-8

These worked well. I put on a m16 washer. However I did shave the towing strap holes slightly to get them to fit. Otherwise get the D bracket in a slightly bigger hole size than standard if it exists.

The other thing to note is that metal rail won't let it sit completely horizontal.

Socket was a size 24mm which is the same as the steering wheel bolt.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 02:27:49 PM
Since the front bumper is off I decided to change the coolant. Firstly it had green coolant in it. Now I have read that some people use this for motor sport and its easier to clean off the track? But I think red coolant is recommended for it. Can I put green coolant in it as I already bought it ::)

There is no valve so you have to knock off the bottom radiator hose which is on the passenger side. Undoing the air box helps as well.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 02:28:39 PM
Side view. Anyone know what type of clip this is as can't get it close properly? I don't think it's a clic r but I could be wrong. Clic r is rhe 2nd pic
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 05:40:36 PM
If anyone has info on the clip for the radiator hose as above  than please let me know as car is sitting out of action for the moment because of it.

So figured I would spend some time on finishing up a few things. Trial fit of 60s le mans 24 hour race car livery ;D 8).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 30, 2021, 05:42:31 PM
That's an expanding band clamp (It goes by many names).

Basically to release it you press down on both the rectangular protrusions, this releases the internal metal bands from the groove in the pipe spigot on the radiator.

To refit it you just push it on and it clips into the groove, there is a rubber O-Ring in the fitting that seals the connection.

Unfortunately in your attempt to get it off you appear to have damaged the clamp. To be honest if I were you I would purchase a new lower radiator hose (it comes with a new fitting already attached), as when they get old the sealing O-Ring has a tendency not to seal well again once disturbed and can leak.

As it's going to be a track car, you don't want upset the track marshals by dumping coolant all over the track.  ;)

And yes, you can continue to use the green coolant green, just make sure you give the radiator AND the block a good flush.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 30, 2021, 05:45:22 PM
So figured I would spend some time on finishing up a few things. Trial fit of 60s le mans 24 hour race car livery ;D 8).

Well if you're ever coming up behind someone on the track they can't say they didn't see you coming . . . . . the guys on the ISS could see you coming!  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 06:28:13 PM
Thanks Bazz. That's a great idea on the new hose so will get a new one. If anyone knows of any motorsport sets than I may as well replace as many as possible while I am doing it.

Yep in a 24h race I should be able to still be seen in the middle of the night ;D. ISS is too easy, hopefully the Mars Rover takes a few snaps ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 02, 2021, 07:13:07 PM
Nifty solution for keeping the power window switches. Used two of the metal brackets that were already there for a screw and screw with nut.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 02, 2021, 07:15:57 PM
Highly recommend the sparco tow straps as the D Bracket holes fit the bolts perfectly. I pointed the flat side of the d bracket to the sky so the strap doesn't drag along the ground. You will have to drill a new hole in the bumper so wouldn't recommend towing straps for a street registered car.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 04, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Turns out the optional? 17x7 wheels are from Speedline in Italy. This is after one coat of plastidip gloss white. A whole can was used for the two wheel. I would suggest 1 full can per wheel as I only bought 3 as recommended by the ebay store. So another coat and than a clear coat and should look like a 156 touring car ;D 8) ::)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 04, 2021, 05:40:01 PM
One can of clear coat can easily do 2 wheels. It won't win any concours d'elegance but for around $50 for plastidip and clear coat its not a bad result from a distance ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 12:10:44 PM
The speedlines are the sturdiest of 156/147/GT stock wheels. I have a set, but one is slightly buckled nonetheless. Ti wheels are the lightest of 17", 2 kg lighter than speedlines.

Though you'd eventually want a set of 16" to fit within TS cup regs.

It's been 17 pages, so I forgot if you've got tires already or not. So I can recommend Hankook RS4 or Sailun Atrezza. Both work well on track and are cheap. Hankook will last a bit more but is more expensive too.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 12:26:04 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
I bought the control tyre for the ts cup but obviously can't race it due to the size of the wheel. May as well get used it on sprints.

General question: I found out that there are two categories of racing in the Twin Spark Cup? 1 for cars with a roll cage and 1 for street cars without a roll cage? If so, I couldn't tell by reading the regulations. I bought slotted discs as well early on but apparently the street car category can't use slotted discs?

Warsch you are right about the rear pads being pretty useless. These were down to the metal and I couldn't tell on the drive home when I bought the car ;D.

Regardless car is on the home stretch as will be ready for Phillip Island in a couple weeks as it's going to Maureci Motors to get the bucket seat and harness installed, timing belt and water pump and wheel alignment. Just ran out of time to do the timing belt etc myself.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 12:58:46 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

I am happy to weigh the car Colin. If you are at Phillip Island at the AROCA sprint than we could set them up? I took out the foam bumper bits behind the bumper, most of the dash is gone etc
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 02:23:06 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

My 156 is give or take in the same condition and it weights 1130 kg with full tank but there's still some stuff to be removed. We've got a competitor here with full on race 156 and it weighs 1050 kg with a roll cage
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 02:25:08 PM
I bought the control tyre for the ts cup but obviously can't race it due to the size of the wheel. May as well get used it on sprints.

Warsch you are right about the rear pads being pretty useless. These were down to the metal and I couldn't tell on the drive home when I bought the car ;D.

Regardless car is on the home stretch as will be ready for Phillip Island in a couple weeks as it's going to Maureci Motors to get the bucket seat and harness installed, timing belt and water pump and wheel alignment. Just ran out of time to do the timing belt etc myself.

Federals are a good choice, though for some strange reason they never appealed to me. 225 is a tad wide for 7" wide rim, but they'll be fine. The paint on the wheels looks quite good.

Good luck with your first outing, please make some pictures and videos and share
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 03:14:24 PM
I bought the control tyre for the ts cup but obviously can't race it due to the size of the wheel. May as well get used it on sprints.

Warsch you are right about the rear pads being pretty useless. These were down to the metal and I couldn't tell on the drive home when I bought the car ;D.

Regardless car is on the home stretch as will be ready for Phillip Island in a couple weeks as it's going to Maureci Motors to get the bucket seat and harness installed, timing belt and water pump and wheel alignment. Just ran out of time to do the timing belt etc myself.

Federals are a good choice, though for some strange reason they never appealed to me. 225 is a tad wide for 7" wide rim, but they'll be fine. The paint on the wheels looks quite good.

Good luck with your first outing, please make some pictures and videos and share

Should be fun!

Found out my rims are slightly buckled as well but its not a safety concern. They cost around $200 a side to unbuckle them so will just put that money to a set of NEW 16x7s as I am guessing almost all 20 year old wheels that have lived in the real world are slightly buckled.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 04:22:57 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

My 156 is give or take in the same condition and it weights 1130 kg with full tank but there's still some stuff to be removed. We've got a competitor here with full on race 156 and it weighs 1050 kg with a roll cage

Wanted to research the touring cars weight and there is a book on it already. Amazon have some 2nd hand copies at a good price.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 04:24:35 PM
Speaking of weight and potentially safety, can I get rid of the lock switch and wires? It won't affect the doors being closed from the outside? Or do I need to keep it for some regulation somewhere?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 04:25:55 PM
Also here are the jack points that I am using for the rear. Found it by digging through threads. Disclaimer this isn't safety advice.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 05:49:53 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

I am happy to weigh the car Colin. If you are at Phillip Island at the AROCA sprint than we could set them up? I took out the foam bumper bits behind the bumper, most of the dash is gone etc
I'll be at PI on the 21st.  I can bring the scales.  Make sure you bring a good trolley jack that will pick up one half of the car at a time.  Have you booked a garage?  The floors in the garages under the main grandstands aren't too bad. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 07:58:20 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

I am happy to weigh the car Colin. If you are at Phillip Island at the AROCA sprint than we could set them up? I took out the foam bumper bits behind the bumper, most of the dash is gone etc
I'll be at PI on the 21st.  I can bring the scales.  Make sure you bring a good trolley jack that will pick up one half of the car at a time.  Have you booked a garage?  The floors in the garages under the main grandstands aren't too bad.

Sounds good. I will see if I can pre book a garage.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 05, 2021, 10:05:44 PM
Also here are the jack points that I am using for the rear. Found it by digging through threads. Disclaimer this isn't safety advice.

Just for future reference, that is not a good place to jack the car, as the rear suspension mount that you are using is made of alloy and bolted to the chassis at the ends, thus the center section is unsupported. I mention all this as people have cracked them in the past by using them as jack points.

Just thought I should mention it.

Have fun at the track, and do try and keep it upright.  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 10:16:32 PM
Also here are the jack points that I am using for the rear. Found it by digging through threads. Disclaimer this isn't safety advice.

Just for future reference, that is not a good place to jack the car, as the rear suspension mount that you are using is made of alloy and bolted to the chassis at the ends, thus the center section is unsupported. I mention all this as people have cracked them in the past by using them as jack points.

Just thought I should mention it.

Have fun at the track, and do try and keep it upright.  ;)

Cheers bazz. Is there a jacking point where you can lift the car in the rear and front?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 06:33:53 AM
Wanted to research the touring cars weight and there is a book on it already. Amazon have some 2nd hand copies at a good price.

I have this book, itís a nice one but donít expect too much technical stuff to look up in it
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 06, 2021, 01:05:18 PM
Anyone know what tool can push the rear piston in the caliper back? I bought the cube tool and it doesn't really fit well. Maybe it's seized? Should it be easy to twist clockwise?

The braided brake lines aren't too bad to put on. Need flare nut spanners in 11mm, 14mm and 17mm. Put it into the caliper first than the brake line up the top. Being a metal brake line up the top, you can't use clippers to stop the flow of brake fluid but it drips out at a pretty slow pace. Washer goes on the top part.

Although I am stuck with screwing in the top part into the line so either it doesn't fit or it's super hard to put on so might just take it off and put the old ones back and give to the mechanic.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 04:59:59 PM
Iíve got this one:
https://www.repco.com.au/en/tools-equipment/automotive-tools/braking/gearwrench-rear-brake-caliper-set-11pc-41540/p/A9716200

It works alright, though the older caliper that you have is more annoying to wind than newer ones

You need to wind and push at the same time which this tool does
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 06, 2021, 06:15:12 PM
Iíve got this one:
https://www.repco.com.au/en/tools-equipment/automotive-tools/braking/gearwrench-rear-brake-caliper-set-11pc-41540/p/A9716200

It works alright, though the older caliper that you have is more annoying to wind than newer ones

You need to wind and push at the same time which this tool does

Bought that kit and it works well. Turns out the rear drivers side caliper is siezed as it retracts about half way and stops. Eventually the rubber split from turning so will have to get a new caliper. Other side was fine.

I think the braided brake lines are fine as other side turned out the sane way. The standard brake line sticks out as well so should be okay.

Tip: if it's not screwing on than pull down the factory line end bit and it will work. Makes more sense when you doing it ;D. I also now remember why I stopped wrenching on cars :o. Everything takes many hours when doing it at home ::).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 07:31:40 PM
I have a bag of calipers, but even though I have a set one like these, but one is half-seized too, caused the car to veer under braking. So I think the left one is stuffed.

I installed a set from facelift 147. Same rotor diameter but different caliper and pad.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 11, 2021, 05:05:39 PM
Car won't start. Cranks really well. Got a new battery. But when pressing accelerator it does nothing. Lights all work.

These are the dash lights. Any ideas on what could be wrong besides I cut out something that was needed to start?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 11, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
Could be any number of things, besides the obvious that you've already mentioned.  ;)

How long has it been since you last started it?

Diagnostics would hopefully give you an idea as to what would be wrong, otherwise it's all "taking potshots in the dark" guessing as to what it could be.

I'll start it all off with "Any fuel in the tank" ? 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 11, 2021, 05:56:42 PM
Could be any number of things, besides the obvious that you've already mentioned.  ;)

How long has it been since you last started it?

Diagnostics would hopefully give you an idea as to what would be wrong, otherwise it's all "taking potshots in the dark" guessing as to what it could be.

I'll start it all off with "Any fuel in the tank" ?

Half a tank of fuel.

Started it last about 2 months ago.

Immobiliser seems okay even though code comes up when you first start the car.

The dash light for what looks like a hose spraying or fuel injector occasionally flashes as it cranks.

Checked these fuses and relays and seem okay.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 11, 2021, 06:19:51 PM
Is there an obd port on this one? I do have a blue tooth obd 2 thing and I had a diagnostic tool for my GT which worked but can't find the port on this 156.

Edit found it ;D

Obd Bluetooth tool would not want to talk to the ecu.

Tried to hook up diagnostic tool about 10 times but it does not want to communicate.

Conclusion: the ecu needs to see a therapist ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 11, 2021, 07:58:32 PM
Next time round I would start the car after cutting out a certain number of wires to ensure that it wasn't my weight saving that is not causing the car to start.

On a brighter note hopefully the momo pedals will help with heel and toe. Use a drill bit for metal as it takes a couple of minutes instead of an hour to do nothing with a normal drill bit ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 10:02:37 AM
Golden nugget of wisdom: Do not cut out the fuel cut off switch/wiring under the seat. This would make sense why it doesn't want to start and when cranking the fuel injector dash light warning is going on and off.

Also drill holes in the door card BEFORE you put material on it as my Ferrari TR6 trim died in a drilling accident. However new 250 Ferrari trim has been installed from Spotlight for $9. I think it was a vinyl. I used spray glue this time to cover the entire trim but it isn't fabric glue. It sticks better but you can obviously see bits of it.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Went with the same burgundy on the front of the car for calipers and went over it with a high temp clear coat.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 01:51:10 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodwood.com/grr/race/historic/2021/4/video-howling-alfa-156-revving-to-9000rpm/amp/

Here heís hustling his 975kg, 310PS (228kW), 2.0-litre monster up the Skradin Hillclimb in Croatia.

So the 156 touring cars came in around 975kg.

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/104835/alfa-romeo-156-super-touring-car

A lot of weight saving over a road going 156 seems to be coming from the front end of the car and engine bay. The floor doesn't look too dissimilar.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 03:22:47 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Touring_Car_Championship

Okay so the 156 competed against the bmw 320 touring car. There was also the audi a4 quattro and Honda accord.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a27468492/bmw-e36-touring-car-sound/

The 320 touring car weighed 790kg and had 216kw. I wonder if the 156 weight of 975kg is with fuel.

http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1993%20Cars.html

The 1993 e36 m3 race car came in at 1300kg and 183kw.
The 318 touring car came in at 1050kg and 213kw.
The alfa 155 touring car came in at 1040kg and 308kw.

Damn so the 155 touring car was faster than the 156. The 155 used the v6.

However Warsch said a street car converted to a race 156 comes in around 1050kg than that's still pretty epic to be only 75kg of the touring car. And all you need is a hammer, chisel and few spray cans and the fuel cut off switch in place and you can kind of achieve that for $100 on a car that cost $1000. That's pretty epic motoring on a budget.


Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 12, 2021, 03:38:52 PM
Golden nugget of wisdom: Do not cut out the fuel cut off switch/wiring under the seat. This would make sense why it doesn't want to start and when cranking the fuel injector dash light warning is going on and off.


So the thought "I wonder what this does?" never entered your head as you were cutting the wires?  ???

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 03:56:40 PM
Golden nugget of wisdom: Do not cut out the fuel cut off switch/wiring under the seat. This would make sense why it doesn't want to start and when cranking the fuel injector dash light warning is going on and off.


So the thought "I wonder what this does?" never entered your head as you were cutting the wires?  ???

 ;D ;D ;D

That only pre supposes I knew what I was doing. I got the side cutters and became a fast and furious mechanic ;D. Hopefully that's the only thing I cut out that I wasn't supposed to. I just thought it was something to do with the air bags. Although after I did it I had an overwhelming feeling that it was an important cable so I have the gift ;D :o. And I still threw it in the bin. Need Yoda Bazz to grow the force in me ;D.

Anyways off to the mechanics next week and it will be the first test for the towing straps as now I need to tow it instead of trailer it. So an expensive lesson for the home mechanic  ;D.

I had this diagram which showed it wasn't an earth cable.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 13, 2021, 12:00:14 PM
A mate came down to help with welding up the holes from the tow bar. I am super impressed but he says he isnt. Using a cheap arc welder but would be much easier with a mig welder so I have been told.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 13, 2021, 12:05:41 PM
I had this diagram which showed it wasn't an earth cable.

Actually it IS an earth cable. The "Fuel Cut Off" switch works by opening the earth wire for the fuel pump.

"We're gonna need a bigger wiring diagram!"   ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 13, 2021, 03:53:16 PM
I had this diagram which showed it wasn't an earth cable.

Actually it IS an earth cable. The "Fuel Cut Off" switch works by opening the earth wire for the fuel pump.

"We're gonna need a bigger wiring diagram!"   ;D

That would have been very helpful ;D.

Regarding the welding we are switching to a mig welder as the arc welder burns through the metal and leaves holes pretty quickly and goes too hot. Bunnings have one at $199 so will give that a crack tomorrow.

Spoke to the Motor Events team for endurance racing and you can use the standard fog lights in the night so will keep them in the car. In the Twin Spark Cup regulations it says that you can take them out and run ducting for the brakes, but it doesn't say that you can specifically take them out. So essentially will keep the heater and fog lights for endurance racing.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on November 13, 2021, 04:57:37 PM
Get a TIG, easier, neater for small stuff

(opinion of fella with no vocational or professional experience, just dickní around in the shed)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 14, 2021, 02:13:40 PM
Get a TIG, easier, neater for small stuff

(opinion of fella with no vocational or professional experience, just dickní around in the shed)

Cheers for the advice Craig. From what I have been told as the TIG welder takes longer to do welds but they are much cleaner.

So the original pic above was done using a stick welder. We touched up the same weld with a mig below on the left. Than did a new one with the MIG and it's way easier, faster and doesn't burn as much of hole through the metal immediately.

Have someone underneath the car looking out for the underbody spray going on fire as it's a pretty common occurrence in the boot well.

It's not too hard as I did some welds myself but they will get better with practice.

The checklist is have a good earth for the welder.
Angle grind around the hole to go back to bare metal.
Weld without putting holes through the metal.
Angle grind/wire brush the previous weld if doing a new run over it.
Using the galvanizing spray to cover it when done.

The metal material used is from bunnings which a 9mm thick galvanized steel sheet. Use an angle grinder to cut up the sheet if you are using square bits of metal.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: johnl on November 14, 2021, 03:50:55 PM

So the sheetmetal holes were repaired using 9mm thick plates welded over them? IMO 9mm is way too thick, the patches ought to be near the same thickness as the sheet being repaired.

Bunnings $199 MIG welder? Is it 'gasless'? The weld quality looks like it is. I've tried using gasless MIG, and couldn't produce a nice weld with it no matter how hard I tried. I'd pay the extra for a real one, with gas...

Regards,
John.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 14, 2021, 04:05:50 PM

So the sheetmetal holes were repaired using 9mm thick plates welded over them? IMO 9mm is way too thick, the patches ought to be near the same thickness as the sheet being repaired.

Bunnings $199 MIG welder? Is it 'gasless'? The weld quality looks like it is. I've tried using gasless MIG, and couldn't produce a nice weld with it no matter how hard I tried. I'd pay the extra for a real one, with gas...

Regards,
John.

Yeah its gas less. Yeah if you want a great result than I would also recommend a better welder but to patch up tow bar holes it does the job.

The patches were thick to try prevent holes being welded through the metal. Going over all them with underbody spray to seal in any potential pin holes.

This is the best result we could get.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: johnl on November 14, 2021, 05:54:59 PM
I understand making do with the less than ideal that is already at hand, or can justify the cost of, I do it all the time...

But I suspect that eventually you'll get fed up with the poor weld quality of 'gasless MIG', and get something a lot better and more versatile. My old arc welder makes smoother welds than shown in those photos, even with quite thin metal (which is why I don't own a MIG, i.e. nearly always I can weld it well enough with the trusty arc welder...). 

IMO the term 'gasless' can't really be used to describe a 'MIG' welder. Inherently the 'G' in 'MIG' stands for 'gas', ergo it can't be a MIG welder if a gas isn't used in the process. Yes, it could be argued that the core of the "gasless MIG" wire vapourises and forms an O2 excluding  'gaseous' shield surrounding the weld puddle, but pretty much the same thing happens when the coating of a welding 'stick' vapourises (as used in arc welding). Nobody is suggesting that an arc welder is a MIG...

I do think 9mm plate is way overkill for what you were trying to avoid. To weld the thin metal sheeting over and onto thick metal to avoid blasting holes, 3mm plate would be more than thick enough. I can't see that the thick plate will cause a problem in this particular case, but in theory it creates a stress riser around the weld, which in some applications might become a problem. It's just me being anal about good practice...

Regards,
John.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 14, 2021, 11:48:10 PM
Agreed John that 9mm is overkill. A thiner metal would give it a cleaner look as well as it doesn't stick up so high. However I am surprised that I managed to pick the correct galvanized steel metal so for me anything from there is a bonus as never done this before ;D.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 15, 2021, 09:01:20 PM
Why weld at all when some reinforced duct tape would've done the job alright too?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 15, 2021, 10:24:43 PM
Why weld at all when some reinforced duct tape would've done the job alright too?

I needed to fix up a few speed holes I made with the chisel as well. I have used flashing tape and silicone on rusted out gutters before and it still let water through so I figure welding and covering it with underbody spray and than paint on the interior side should be a good result for the price of a welder and a few beers. I doubt it affects the rigidity in any scale but in case of a racing incident if I have a mate in the car I would rather know that I did everything I reasonably could to ensure its a "safe" race car. But I completely understand why previously some of the holes were covered up with tape. It's been about 10 hours of work and almost done. Plus I can weld at a beginner level and know not to ever buy a rusted classic car to restore myself unless I don't want to speak to anyone for many years ;D. So far it's about 3 months and I reckon about 200 hours put in the car. But it should be done soon and I didn't think I would own a race car so it's a pretty good result overall.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 17, 2021, 04:57:26 PM
Off to the mechanics. Did all I can do as leaving timing belt, water pump and bucket seat, harness for the pros. Pretty good result for 3 months of work and around 200 hours.

Break down of costs involved:

Car $1000
Bucket seat $1200
Rails $100
Harness $270
Steering Wheel $350
Gear knob $50
Spark plugs $50 for bosch + $150 ngk as no one shipped them
Brakes $580 pads
Braided lines $200
Discs $320
Tyres $800
Headlight bulbs $50
Battery $250
Wipers $100
Stickers $450
Oils $300
Towing Straps $100

About $6,500

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 17, 2021, 05:05:58 PM
Before and after
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 17, 2021, 05:28:07 PM
Impressive - Looks set to go. 
All sorted for Philip Island this Sunday?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 18, 2021, 11:06:51 AM
Well done! The car looking good, apart from the gap between the guard and the bumper which bugs me.

Is it your first time on a track ever or just in the Alfa?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 18, 2021, 11:48:05 AM
Impressive - Looks set to go. 
All sorted for Philip Island this Sunday?

It's tentative. Depends on the mechanic and how much wires I shouldn't have cut out. :D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 18, 2021, 11:52:01 AM
Well done! The car looking good, apart from the gap between the guard and the bumper which bugs me.

Is it your first time on a track ever or just in the Alfa?

Gap is there as didn't screw in the screws on the side as I found I have to do full lock and had a bunch of other things to do before the tow truck came. Rest assured the gap won't be there permanently ;D.

I have done sprints at Sandown, Winton and Phillip Island before in various cars over the years. But first time in the 156. It got to the point where I have realized there isn't much point in tracking a road registered sports car especially at today's prices. The only good thing about old cars used to be the price and now that everything has become a van gogh I prefer to do it in a cost effective way. I have spent too much money on cars and trying to limit that now.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 23, 2021, 12:12:21 PM
Car looked pretty good from up in Race Control - difficult to miss!. 
How did you go?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 23, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Yeah really good. Best motoring experience I have ever had. I love the light weight, no traction and no stability control interfering. I could even get rid of the abs as it was kicking in on the hair pin.

Ended up with a 2.08 flat so pretty happy for the first time out in the car. That was with a crooked steering wheel as didn't get a wheel alignment in time. Turns out I got the double R version of the federal so very happy they they held up for the whole day. Car didn't screech once.

A huge thanks to Hugh and the guys at Monza Motors for getting the sorted in time. Hugh has one of the fastest twin sparks and is a wealth of knowledge about the Twin Spark Cup. Also taught me how to trailer a car. Make sure you have the 2.5 tonne ratchet straps which I got from bunnings.

Got a new water pump, timing belt and pulleys. Also had the bucket seat, harness installed plus brakes which was about $2,500 so car owes me about $9,000 now.

Hired the car carrier trailer from u haul but turned out that the car won't get up the trailer. So had to get a beaver tail trailer and than a car to tow it as it was above my tow car capacity. That was probably the most stressful part of the whole experience as haven't done it before.

Found out that the red eibachs were an option on the car so many 156s had them ticked.

Another tip I got is overfill the oil by half a litre to prevent oil surge and bearings going.

Took off the engine cover and timing belt cover for weight and better heat management in the engine bay.

Next step will be to take out the air con and cat.

Another tip was to get the roll cage that goes into the dashboard so you have more space to get in and out of the car. I understand why people buy quick release steering wheels now as it's not too graceful to get in and out.

From what I understand is that slotted rotors are okay for the Twin Spark Cup. A few guys looked over the car and it looks like it fits within the regulations.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 23, 2021, 10:30:21 PM
Got a tonne of positive comments of the colour scheme so very happy with the whole process. Took a bit of time and money but it's well worth it.

http://www.sdpics.com/motorsport/cars/index.php?keyWord=&kid=&page=11&sub=7375a091eebda0fae07cedf9af55cb99#photo=4d4c45a7bbae5baba09428a6847f148f
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 23, 2021, 11:08:32 PM
Rear shot

http://www.sdpics.com/motorsport/cars/index.php?keyWord=&kid=&page=21&sub=7375a091eebda0fae07cedf9af55cb99#photo=8f752ab27b15e0868e8aeae87dc82557
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 29, 2021, 02:22:52 PM
Here are some pics for a potential solution for the bucket seat and harness set up. I love the momo bucket seat, steering wheel, gear knob and pedals. I should have got a momo harness as well. I found that by taking out the cushion I fit well with a helmet on. It's not perfect but with the adjustable steering column that goes all the way up and out, it's fine to get through a track day.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 29, 2021, 02:24:52 PM
A few more. Sorry bazz but didn't have time to figure out a new fire extinguisher set up. Most advice is gtfo and run anyway in case of fire :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 29, 2021, 02:29:28 PM
Front shot of the seat
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 29, 2021, 02:42:09 PM
Unfortunately shoulder strap anchor points are way too forward and way too low.  Angle of strap MUST be no more than 450 to the horizontal.  Ideally should be horizontal +/- 50
Look up Schedule I in the CAMS Manual.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 29, 2021, 03:55:12 PM
Short of a harness bar, this seems like an okay temporary solution. The problem with it going in the metal for the upper part of the rear seats is that it super thin whereas the metal that it is in currently is very thick. This is a temporary solution until roll cage gets installed. Plus I prefer this than a seat belt as a sealt belt is essentially bolted in with one bolt into the metal plus it is 20 years old. I couldn't imagine a standard seat and seat belt being safer than this temporary set up.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on November 29, 2021, 05:37:15 PM
Another tip is to keep the standard rubbers around the doors. I took them off because they are surprisingly heavy but when I sprayed the car down to check the water was getting into the interior and there are holes left by some of the clips.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on December 03, 2021, 02:25:38 PM
Another thing I learned from speaking to people at the track days is that you can buy a Dorian Timing Unit Micro Mounting Bracket from here https://dorian.com.au/products/auto-sport/

It's $18.70 with express shipping. Saves duct tapping a bag onto the car at every track day.

Most people mount onto the bottom grill in the front bumper.