Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 932 Series (156, GTV, Spider, 147, GT, and 166) => Topic started by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:45:59 PM

Title: Twin Spark Cup 156 Project
Post by: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
https://www.twinsparkcup.com.au/

After speaking with John during the AROCA Meeting, this seemed like something that I could do and this way I can take my passion for cars to another level. The regulations are pretty straight forward and you need a Motorsport Australia/CAMS Racing license or the other non cams one which I forgot. However I like to do other CAMS events so I will hopefully be getting one in a couple of months when my current one expires.

I was shocked at how well the paint came up after a cut, polish, wax and finish. Spent about 10 hours cleaning it and  about another 10 hours fixing odd bits and stripping it.

So far have ordered:
Slotted discs $300
Ferodo DS2500 pads $800
Braided brake lines $250
Federal semi slicks in 225 45 17 $800
New crystal vision bulbs as factory ones sucked $50
Timing belt kit
Clic R pliers as can't figure out how put them back together ;D
All off ebay

Other than that it already has an eibach suspension kit so won't have to do the suspension for a while.

Next step will be bucket seat, harness and roll cage and that's it. Roll cage is around $3k. Bucket seat is around $500 to $1000 and harness is around $500.

So pretty happy with potentially having a race car for around 8k all up and its cool as you can do it in stages. I found that you can hire a car trailer for around $150 for the day so it saves driving to the track on semi slicks.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 15, 2021, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:51:22 PM
Finally got the dog smell out

Don't worry, it'll come back first time it rains . . . .  ::)

;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 16, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
"The fascia must remain standard except for modifications essential for the fitment of a full roll Cage. Original
instruments must remain in the standard location. Standard instrument stalks must be fitted and working.". 
My reading of the above seems it will allow removal of the "centre console" including trim down to and including the handbrake.  Call John Burkhart for clarification.  Most TSC cars I've seen retain the centre console / gear stick surround / handbrake trim.  Probably replaced after carpets removed?

"7 Wheels and Steering
7.1 Wheel Diameter
All cars must use 16" diameter wheels.
7.2 Wheel Width
Maximum rim width 7"
7.3 Wheel Type
Wheel type is free. Competitors MUST ENSURE that wheels are suitable for racing purposes and should be
inspected regularly for cracks, rim damage etc.
7.4 Modifications Prohibited
Steering must not be altered from standard specification as regards method and position/mounting points of
components. The bending of steering arms is not permitted under any circumstances. The steering ratio must remain
as standard for the model. On models fitted with power steering as standard it must always be in full working order.
However, the standard Power Steering oil cooler may be removed and/or replaced by an aftermarket oil cooler.
8 Tyres
8.1 Specification – Nominated Control Tyre
Federal 595 RSR are the nominated control tyre to be used by all competitors until 31 December 2020
R Spec tyres are not permitted.".

TS engines do not handle sustained high engine revs.  A wise investment would be a custom soft rev limiter set to around 6100rpm. 

Welcome aboard!!

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 16, 2021, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 15, 2021, 10:45:59 PM
Federal semi slicks in 225 45 17 $800

Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 16, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
All cars must use 16" diameter wheels.

Oops, hope you kept the receipts.  :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 17, 2021, 09:44:49 AM
While Colin says that TS don't handle high revs, I will politely disagree.

I have a TS track day car which I rev out to the limiter, and so far it's been to about 55 race meets over the last 4 odd years and it's at about 220kkm now.

I also have the balance belt removed to squeeze out every hp. My friend has developer a cheap intake trumpet mod that gives about 5 hp at the wheels, hit me up if it's something of interest.

Also, I believe 225 to be too wide for standard 7" wheels, especially for motorsports use. Not safety wise but performance wise.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 18, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Mmmmmm.  If your changing gear when the engine is bouncing on the limiter you maybe changing a tad late!  Seen more than one TS let go here in Vic.  I'll admit though some of these engines may have been iffy before hitting the track!

Give the "50" profile tires a shot.  They'll provide a bit more grip under braking over the 45's and in theory run cooler.

We use Motul RBF 600 or the Penrite 600 in our FF.  The Motul has a slightly higher dry and wet boiling point though.  Driver reckons the Motul also feels better.  Whatever fluid you use - bleed the brakes often!

Not sure if disabling the balance shaft is allowed in the regs!?!  A few restrictions on induction system mods as well methinks!?!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:52:28 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 18, 2021, 12:31:31 PM
Ferodo have the ds2500 and ds3000 which is a race pad. The ds3000 rear pads only fit from 2002 onwards. Mine is 2000 so would ds3000 on the front and ds2500 on the rear work? Would the 2002 rear brake change just be a change of calipers or is there more to it?

Regarding the brake fluid, I just purchased the Penrite Racing Brake Fluid 600 Dot 4. Are there any other good options? I am a Nulon convert after using their additives but Penrite is great as well.

I haven't noticed any changes in my lap time regardless of what the rear pads are. I used to have EBC yellowstuff at the rear, then EBC ultimax and now it's some generic stuff. I also believe that 156 has to much rear brake bias so better not to go race pads at the rear.

156 and 147 had 251 mm rear rotors with different calipers and pads, they are interchangeable though. 2002 onwards and GTAs have bigger 270 mm rotors, which you can install, but there's no reason to.

I've been running the same brake fluid for all the 4 years I've been racing and never had a problem. I partially flush the calipers every now and then. Again, I guess anything of similar spec would do alright.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 18, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Mmmmmm.  If your changing gear when the engine is bouncing on the limiter you maybe changing a tad late!  Seen more than one TS let go here in Vic.  I'll admit though some of these engines may have been iffy before hitting the track!

I don't let it bounce, but just by a few revs. It seems to provide the best performance that way.

But yeah, previous history is important. I've got a donor car with a TS with just 140kkm which has its block pierced through back and front. No sure how that happened, but it was some young bloke's daily and never raced.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 19, 2021, 03:57:30 PM
Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 18, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
Give the "50" profile tires a shot.  They'll provide a bit more grip under braking over the 45's and in theory run cooler.

45s have smaller overall diameter so can provide better acceleration. Can't say which would be faster though, depends on many factors. So I'd go with the cheaper one.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 22, 2021, 01:26:58 PM
When it comes to electrical, good start its to disconnect the battery, make and have a coffee, glass of red or a beer, then go for it. 
If you are stripping the interior, and don't intend restoring it later, remove as much cable as possible - but label EVERYTHING.
Cable can be heavy.  I removed near 7kg from my 75 that was redundant after the PO removed the aftermarket stereo!
If you intend to cut cables - 1 core at a time with side cutters - even with the battery disconnected!  Then fold back the cut cable 1800 on itself and tape up.  Liquid electrical tape can be applied with a brush or exposed conductors dipped into the can.  Any wiring exposed during the interior strip out can be damaged given the now loss of mechanical protection. 

That 156 looks very nice!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 23, 2021, 09:17:25 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:56:24 AM
Bucket seat question - would an xl bucket seat with head restraints fit in the 156? For example the momo seat attached.

Are side mount rails the best option or can the sliding rails work well? If I do an enduro with mates than they would probably need to slide the seat to fit.

Standard 156 rails and the frame underneath are really high. So the frame that is part of the body is positioned high, then you add standard rails and then L-brackets. I have a Sparco bucket seat set up that way and I reach roof lining with my helmet and I'm 176 cm. I suppose seat like that would fit, but barely. A good idea is to cut that standard frame out and weld in proper mounts thus giving like 5 cm extra clearance or more.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 23, 2021, 09:20:41 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:57:30 AM
Anyone tried the Monza 6 point harness? It seems well priced and is fia approved.

I've got harness exactly like that, they are good, but luckily I haven't actually tried them so far. I also have same brand but with narrow shoulder straps for HANS. Straps, locks - all of that look solid and good quality.

Surely Autotecnica beats fakes which are plentyful with bug name brands. I've also seen some rally guys sporting this brand so I guess it's ok.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 26, 2021, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 23, 2021, 10:00:16 AM
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 26, 2021, 11:39:42 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 23, 2021, 10:17:08 AM
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities?

I'm pretty sure vinyl is fine as it's the material standard door cards are made of, you can get sheets from Bunnings even. Then there's zincalum sheets which I've been told are the lightest per square meter. And, I guess, thin alu sheets work too.

The car in the link is such an odd one.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on August 26, 2021, 04:58:06 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 22, 2021, 09:51:36 AM
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
I'd tape them or dip the cut end in silicone sealer just to be sure, but for a racer why not remove as much wire as possible for weight saving?  If the whole circuit is not required, remove the applicable fuse (more weight reduction!)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 27, 2021, 11:10:02 AM
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

I cant advise on tyre pressures.  Give John B a call?  But purchase the best pressure gauge you can afford. 

I have one of these.
https://www.alfano.com.au/product/alfano-tyre-control-2-pressure-gauge-inc-temp-sensor-probe/


Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 27, 2021, 11:10:02 AM
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

156/147 don't really need adjustable bushes, the camber increases with lowering the car. So my car has good -2.5 at the front with simple polybushes in top arms and just new lower arms. I do have all the rear polybushed though, and it's nice, but not really needed.

Eibach spring are nowhere near 400 lbs, they are like 30% more stiff than stock.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 11:36:00 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 26, 2021, 09:52:17 PM
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?

Tire pressure you'd have to work out yourself for your tires, tarmac temp, car weight etc. I run about 30 psi hot in Yoko AD08R in the same size. And 32-34 hot in Hankook RS4 215/45r17.

If bushes are good, I don't think it's worth to go polyurethane, but if you have spare cash, it does add to better response.

As already said - neutral toe is a good start, front camber will be ok when you lower your car, and I'd try to set about the same at rear.

Eibach with stock shocks is way too soft for track duties. Cheap coilovers are the way to go, in my opinion. You can get a set of DGR coilovers delivered for AUD 1250. They are track proven in 156 and are a control suspension for Hot Hatch cup here in QLD.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 27, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 27, 2021, 01:55:26 PM
This is from the twin spark cup regulations:

You probably have to run that, true. But then your current suspension won't allow you to run for points there either. But I think you still can participate. I'm from QLD though, and sadly we don't have the number for TS cup. You better check with their orgs, I'm sure some are here in other thread/sections.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on August 29, 2021, 11:47:41 AM
Dry ice

Buy a couple of bags, place it on the floor, chip it all up, works a treat (did for me)
Should be able to get dry ice from your local fisho shop as they use it in esky's (chilly bins, etc)
Make sure to leave the doors open and ventilate


Heat just makes it sticky and leaves residue
Dry ice takes it off and leaves behind a perfect (primed/painted) surface
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 12:44:41 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 12:19:20 PM
Thanks. Is that safe to go near the wires as I haven't taken out the main wiring looms going down the side of the car?

Yes, as long as you keep the chisel away from the wires, and don't try to bend the wires when frozen (snap).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 06:33:33 PM
Yes, in the 156 all the yellow sheathed cables are airbag related. The silver box you refer to is the Airbag ECU.

I'd keep the heater, as it works in conjunction with the A/C to defog. Besides, if you end up doing a 24hr or something similar in the middle of winter you'll curse yourself for removing it.

(https://internationalnewsagency.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/frozen-face-emoji-780x470.jpg)

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 29, 2021, 06:35:11 PM
Hey Alfatango, I look forward to seeing you on the track – hopefully in the near future what with lockdowns and everything.

I was just catching up on this thread and wanted to acknowledge Colin's suggestion to limit your revs. Over the last 2 or 3 years I have witnessed the demise of roughly 10 TS's, mostly bottom end failures, in my own case a broken valve spring (if I remember correctly).
Not entirely surprising given their age, I guess. One Alfa specialist has suggested, as Colin said, that sustained revs at the limiter are to be avoided – I guess this is a track specific issue – holding 2nd gear at Winton short track turns 5, 6 and 7? – I have'nt driven there for a while!

Watching Twins Spark Cup cars in action in the UK I am blown away by the sustained high revs, but I'm guessing that these are purpose built engines, within the competition guidlines?

Food for thought!
Al.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on August 29, 2021, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on August 29, 2021, 07:09:06 PM
Thanks Bazz. Can I remove the airbag ecu now that all air bags have been removed?

Yes
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 30, 2021, 10:17:12 AM
Hi Alfatango, no I am not using a rev limiter, I had not considered anything to supplement the factory limiter until Colin suggested it in this thread.
I sprint my son's 147 very occasionally and am happy to reside at the slowest end of the lap times – a bit like you I'm not out there to challenge for the fastest lap time, my objective is to have a fun day and drive the car home after the event.  :)
The car is on its second engine after an engine failure at Winton whilst my son was driving, and I don't want to pay for number 3!
My son on the other hand is a little more exuberant (as you are when you're 22), and I reckon that a device to limit the revs to about 6,100 is a really good idea.
Colin, maybe you could elaborate on the best way to do this?

The other way to go about this is to go for it, and to accept that you might need to replace the engine at some stage. Imlachs wreckers have TS cars coming and going all the time and you can buy a complete second hand engine for $240 if you know what you are doing (I don't)  ;D It is racing after all...

Cheers,
Al.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 30, 2021, 11:44:28 AM
Probably less expensive and certainly easier to install would be shift lights - something along the lines of below.  An incompatible or poorly installed rev limiter can cause no end of dramas!

https://ecliptech.com.au/shift-p2/

Factory tachos can also drift out of calibration as they age.  Given your 156 is now unroadworthy, maybe you could get it on your trailer and drop into your local Auto Elec to have the tacho accuracy checked. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on August 30, 2021, 12:02:51 PM
After a few events at the same track you would know the shifting points, so you can just upshift earlier. Otherwise a shift light would do. I'm sure you can hit a limiter a couple of times to tweak the tacho/limiter. TS is not that fragile.

I'm also curious what's different about VIC and NSW track which makes them destroy engines whereas mine works just fine here in QLD. Or maybe I'm just lucky or Penrite Racing oils are really good.

Either way, a TS engine costs about as a pair of cheaper tires.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on August 30, 2021, 06:37:04 PM
Yes those shift lights are cool, make a very nice birthday present I think!
Re. TS second hand engine costs, I got prices ranging from $1200 to $250 (installation costs of course on top of that).
For $1200 you might buy an engine that's already been removed from a low klm car, known to a Alfa specialist with a documented service history and (maybe) a couple of months warranty. For a $250 engine you need to know what you are doing! Tip: don't remove it from a car with no body damage – chances are it's broken a cam belt!
Just wanted to qualify what I said in my previous post!
Cheers,
Al.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 01, 2021, 03:17:17 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 01, 2021, 12:58:20 PM
Starting to look like a race car.

Nice - I still have a set of rims like that and same rotors. Also my 156 is same colour, albeit it's all sunburnt now.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on September 01, 2021, 05:21:41 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 01, 2021, 01:48:59 PM
Just as a side note, I have noticed how much it is easier to work on cars with higher quality youtube videos compared to even 10 years ago. Working off forums with no pictures and videos was hard. No idea how you guys used to do it pre 90s. Magazines had articles but it wasn't a very dynamic process where you could ask questions. Even buying tools is so much easier now with ebay or Bunnings stocking kinchrome stuff etc.

Dude, we were smarter :)

(and invented the internet and youtube to make it easier .. and porn) ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 01, 2021, 05:54:24 PM
Quote from: Craig_m67 on September 01, 2021, 05:21:41 PM
Dude, we were smarter :)

As I always say to my sons - "I'm not smarter than you, I've just been here longer!"
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 03, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
I've seen both options - keeping the buttons in place, as it's easier. Or being moved to center console.

I don't think there's a need to break glass ever on a circuit track. But I'd think a fire extinguisher would do the trick.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 04, 2021, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:27:41 PM
No turning back now. Hopefully the car still starts ;D

Isn't this where someone pipes up with "OH MY GOD! YOU DIDN'T CUT THAT WIRE DID YOU!!!"   :o

;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 04, 2021, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:30:06 PM
Trial fitted the L Brackets and Momo XL Daytona and it fits but but get sliding rails if you planning to not cut out the factory rails. It's way too close to the steering wheel for me and I wouldn't mind some more head room.

I told you so!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 04, 2021, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 04, 2021, 03:34:32 PM
Hey Warsch, to install this, would you cut out the whole section and weld these to the floor or its it the top part of the factory rail only and you mount these instead?

I'd cut this standard bracket off, it's too close to the steering wheel and too high.

However, like I said, mounting L brackets to the floor is unsafe.

You need some bars welded across. That link has quite good pictures showing the end result.

For small time circuit racing you can get away with some simpler stuff like two perpendicular bars on top of which you mount L brackets.

My setup now is just a bucket seat on standard rails so I can't take pictures. I'll look something up online
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on September 05, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
Only just saw this thread.  Nice work on the build so far.

Go over the TS Cup regulations very carefully.  You WILL want to get involved with it after a few track days.  And build your car to those regulations, you don't want to be backtracking and refitting stuff you've removed.  Regarding windows and switches, you need to keep glass for the TS Cup, so just keep the switches in situ. 

My advice would be to do as much as you can while keeping to the TS Cup regs, come to a few track days to shakedown the car, and talk to as many TS Cup competitors as possible, and have a good look over their cars.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Federal tyres either, they're shit, barely better than a road tyre, and nowhere near as good as a decent R tyre.  But it's the same for everyone, so all good.  From memory they work best with a high pressure.

Good luck with the build.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 08, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 06, 2021, 08:49:16 PM
If I wanted to chop of the muffler, can I just angle grind it off? Would it still pass noise limit tests for track days without the muffler? Does it need a pipe welded onto it to take the exhaust gas past the bumper?

I checked the Twin Spark Cup regulations and it says the exhaust is free from manifold back and you can get rid of the muffler.

Just chopping it off is ugly, get the exhaust shop to weld in some basic straight hot dog muffler at least. I recommend gutting the catalytic converter, or even better to replace it with a pipe. Scrappies will buy it for about a hundred which is about the same as you'd pay to weld in a pipe instead. I simply gutted mine and noticed a fair bit of torque at the low end. I assume it helped in high rev range too it's just not that obvious.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 08, 2021, 11:50:23 AM
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on September 05, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
Go over the TS Cup regulations very carefully.  You WILL want to get involved with it after a few track days.  And build your car to those regulations, you don't want to be backtracking and refitting stuff you've removed.  Regarding windows and switches, you need to keep glass for the TS Cup, so just keep the switches in situ. 

My advice would be to do as much as you can while keeping to the TS Cup regs, come to a few track days to shakedown the car, and talk to as many TS Cup competitors as possible, and have a good look over their cars.

Solid advice right there!
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on September 10, 2021, 02:34:45 PM
Nice use of the rev limiter!!!

The original 156 Cats are probably 600<800 cells per square inch (CPSI).  Never seen inside an Alfa cat, however if they are ceramic cells and assuming say 600 CPSI, each individual cell will be around 0.65mm in diameter.  A metallic cat will likely support thinner cell walls so each cell may be say 0.75mm dia.  Pretty restrictive!  Given the role of the cat is to expose as much gas as possible to the catalyst, the cell section is rarely circular.  Result is a high wall surface area to cross section ratio - much like a radiator. 

Cats make pretty good mufflers, so replacing the stock Alfa cat/s with say 100 CPSI cat will probably not cause engine check light and support much improved gas flow while managing noise.  A metallic cell 100 CPSI cat will probably feature at least 2mm cells.

All tracks have noise limits that must not be exceeded.  Sandown is particularly stringent for good reason.  Not unusual to black flag at least one car at most Sandown sprints.  That 156 in the youtube clip would be sent home!

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 09:42:28 AM
Just put new tape back over the holes once you've cleaned up the wheel tub.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 01:41:54 PM
Quote from: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 09:42:28 AM
Just put new tape back over the holes once you've cleaned up the wheel tub.

Hah, otherwise if you weld them up you'll find there's some secret super critical magical reason why the previous owner put them there.  ::)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 04:05:35 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 02:35:24 PM
As greatly engineered as the cloth tape going around the wires every 10 cm I think most alfa electrical problems are because of no protection on the electrical wires.

Ugh, the bloody Mummy Tape! Don't get me started . . . . .  ::)

As for the plastic conduit, use it in conjunction with Silicone Tape to bind it and keep any of the wires escaping from the split down the conduit. Also known as "Miracle Tape", "Rescue Tape" ect ect.

Brilliant stuff.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 05:36:05 PM
Yep, it's confirmed, you have WAAY too much free time on your hands!  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:35:55 PM
Tartan trim for the door skin

Hmm, giving me flashbacks to a TR7.........
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: Beatle on September 12, 2021, 07:18:35 PM
Hmm, giving me flashbacks to a TR7.........

Yeah, the type that make you sit bolt upright in the middle of the night screaming . . . .  ;D

Quote from: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Going to re do the dash into a mahogany color to give the car an early italian race car / ferrari vibe.

Quote from: Alfatango on September 12, 2021, 04:35:55 PM
Tartan trim for the door skin

Oh yeah, both of them together just screams italian race car . . . . :o

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Brad M on September 13, 2021, 09:33:28 AM
Thanks I'm enjoying this thread... it's great inspiration to get my twinspark ready.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 13, 2021, 10:33:17 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 11, 2021, 05:49:19 PM
Might just stick with the standard exhaust in that case as dont want to put in a new exhaust if I mess up the cats or sensors. Maybe do it down the track.

Can't get dry ice as in 5km lock down so went old school with a chisel and hammer. There are a couple of holes in the wheel well that were these square stickers and look kind of factory or could be rust repairs. Either way, if I was to buy a mig welder what type of metal would you use for patches? Can you weld with the fuel tank in the car?

I think all TS 156s in Asutralia were CF2, so only one o2 sensor before the cat. So no downside of getting rid of it in the race car. If just gut it, the sound will be terrible tin can rattle at some revs, but still not too noisy if you keep the rest in place.

Why bother with fuel tank in the trunk though?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 13, 2021, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: bazzbazz on September 12, 2021, 05:36:05 PM
Yep, it's confirmed, you have WAAY too much free time on your hands!  :)

Oh yeah, I'm jealous. My car badly needs some upgrades but all it gets is abuse at a racetrack.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 13, 2021, 09:54:48 PM
Not saying you SHOULD, but you CAN weld with the fuel tank in the car.  Panelbeaters and exhaust shops do it all the time.

BUT, you need to fully understand the situation and do a full risk assessment.

When in doubt.....DON'T!!!!

It's not just the tank.  You need to consider fuel lines, vapour/recirc system, what's on the other side of the panel you are welding? etc etc etc. 

Less of a physical risk to your safety, but also consider potential damage to electrical and electronic equipment.  Battery, ECUs etc etc.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 13, 2021, 11:21:54 AM

Okay so you are saying cut out the cats and leave the muffler?

The welding in the wheel well is a serious question, is it unsafe to weld near the fuel tank? Or weld the seat brackets in near the gearbox? I haven't welded before and come to think most people weld when the car is completely apart. Happy to go with some non blowing up options to fix the holes in the wheel well and ex tow bar holes.

What about dry ice with the sound deadening underneath the rear seats? Can this have an impact on the fuel tank?

That's what I've done with my cat converter. No issues apart from terrible tin can sound. But I can live with that. Easy to sort by welding in a pipe.

Seat brackets are nowhere near the gearbox, there's fuel lines somewhere though so worth checking. But why bother with some holes in the boots? I'd just seal with some sticky tape. Or just leave it as is.

As for welding - it takes time to learn and while I wouldn't mind welding up holes in the boot myself, I surely wouldn't trust myself with seat brackets.

I have no idea about dry ice, but I think it should be ok. Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 14, 2021, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: warsch on September 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM
Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.

Oh, you are sooo going to regret saying that one day . . . .

(https://c.tenor.com/O0lyhfKLMFIAAAAC/rofl-emoji.gif)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on September 14, 2021, 05:20:02 PM
Quote from: warsch on September 14, 2021, 12:48:28 PM

Then, I must admit, I am Russian and we tend to just do whatever stupid comes across our minds hoping for the best.

You mean like "hey, we have this spare intercontinental ballistic missile... I wonder what would happen if we strapped a guy to the front of it at fired him out of the atmosphere...."   They say necessity is the mother of invention but I don't know that this was actually necessary?  Fun nonetheless.

PS:  The dry ice won't cause any issues.  It's not liquid nitrogen cold.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 14, 2021, 06:09:38 PM
If necessity is the mother of invention, then surely desperation is the father of it, for I have seen men with a necessity be very clever, yet wondered at how the desperate are driven to be downright bloody brilliant! - Baz


Like - "You stuck your finger in WHAT to stop the bomb from going off!!"   :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 19, 2021, 01:24:43 PM
Headrest bar won't hold the harness. I bought a thick metal plate, put it horizontally against the rear wall and drilled through. Then used eye bolts and nuts. It's not ideal but better than thin headrest metal plate.

Using lower standard harness mounting holes is okaish, but the harness angle would be a bit too steep
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 20, 2021, 09:51:42 PM
I bit of a plug of my recent new PB at QR Clubman config. My friend dragged me around fast corners which helped

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 21, 2021, 10:03:06 AM
The funny thing is, that the car is a tad more powerful (intake mods), much better brakes, 100 kg lighter, but I only pinched 0.12sec off my last PB.

Also, the friend in the front has a similarly upgraded 156 JTS Selespeed but still with all the trim in and he beats me just by being a better driver
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 21, 2021, 02:53:01 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 02:22:03 PM
With a selespeed? Must be a typo ;D. Not a fan of the selespeed after owning two GTs in selespeeed.

You need to take my selespeed for a "Spirited drive".  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 22, 2021, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 02:58:24 PM
I can see why you would like them when they are tuned correctly but I prefer manual all day for track duties.

I took my JTS sele to the track too. I actually enjoyed it and would prefer it to a manual. Now my car had some issues, one being that previous owners destroyed 3rd gear syncros while driving with semi-broken selespeed, and that JTS is weaker than TS when as is. Both issues can be addressed, but I can't be bothered, especially so that I'm going to race another car next season.

So as for selespeed on the track.

Pros:
1. Never a misshift. I certainly lost a few good laps to getting lost between gears.
2. Rev matching downshifts with no effort. This is a big one - I can't heel-toe so downshifts are rough and take attention off the track. Click and forget is so much better, not to mention the buttery smooth rev matching.

Cons:
1. Upshifts on its own when hits the limiter.
2. The limiter is 5000 rpm lower.
3. Requires some periodical maintenance and possibly repairs. This a minor one, as once you set it up once, you're good for quite some time.

And while its upshifts don't feel quick, it seems like they are on par with a manual.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 22, 2021, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 21, 2021, 02:22:03 PM
Yeah I found most modifications are pretty pointless besides brake pads and tyres for track days. But it's hard to tell as you would need to test them back to back and conditions are always changing.

Lots of the upgrades work, it's just that driver mod and seat time beats a lot of them too. Especially shaving off some 4 kg of roof liner.

In my opinion, adjustable coilovers are a must (but you can get away with some sporty suspension for some time), obviously brakes. All the other stuff works too, just does not translate straight to lap times. Polybushes, rose-jointed arms, braces and so on.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 23, 2021, 09:33:18 PM
Just do me one favor, for your own sake don't place the Fire Extinguisher in the passenger foot well where so many people do. Otherwise you may as well just bolt a 1.5 Kg lead weight there instead, as doing so makes it completely useless.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 01:35:00 AM
Why would mounting it so make it more likely for the Extinguisher to accidentally discharge? They are designed to be near impossible to go off inadvertently.

For those of you unfamiliar with this discussion -

Basically a fire extinguisher is completely useless unless you can reach it!

So picture yourself in your track car, strapped in with your racing harness, as you take one of the more challenging corners at fill tilt, you accidentally slide off the track onto the soft grass, your outer wheels dig in and you flip onto your roof. As your hanging there tightly strapped in, quite safe and unharmed, but unable to move at all, you await the crash crew to arrive to extricate you from your indignant situation.

Suddenly there is a puff of smoke from somewhere, "OH CRAP!" Instantly the whole cabin is filled with blinding smoke and you hear the crackling of flames . . . . . you reach for the extinguisher . . . . . all the way over there, in the passenger foot well, (or any of the other idiotic places that I have seen so many drivers mount the extinguisher) go on, there it is, go for it, nope, not going to happen. BUGGER!

The extinguisher should be mounted in a position so -

A/ That with your eyes closed you can simply drop your arm and it naturally falls to hand, without you being able to see or move, AT ALL.

B/ You are able to un-clip the retaining straps with just the one hand only and easily remove from the retaining bracket. Again, while blind and unable to move, wiggle, or even turn your head any amount at all.

C/ Also, the extinguisher must be of a type where the safety pin/clip can be removed and it be operated easily while blind & wearing racing gloves.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 24, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
I agree that you have to be able to reach the extinguisher while seated and strapped in.

However, they absolutely go off on their own. That happens, I  personally know a person who had it happen.

That being said, mine is right under my legs
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 24, 2021, 07:15:53 AM
But if you are racing and another car hits your door, could that not have an impact on the fire extinguisher

Anything is possible, but the recommended location is to your left mounted on/above/near the floor tunnel/hump. As shown here -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/193874062@N06/51509746711/in/dateposted-public/)

Quote from: warsch on September 24, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
That being said, mine is right under my legs

And as described in my scenario above,  it makes it completely useless, as being between your legs you need to lean forward to reach & release it. Your pinned to your seat upside down unable to move whatsoever, remember.

Still, it's much better than the passenger footwell.  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 24, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
As they say, timing is everything -

(https://www.vintage-mustang.com/attachments/i-wish-for-a-fire-extinguisher-jpg.471346/)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on September 25, 2021, 09:47:35 AM
One of these - probably the MFM400S for a sedan. Weight not so much of an issue

We have something similar to the LWM50 in our Formula Ford.  Weight and packaging a real issue.

https://www.conceptracegear.com.au/motorsport/fire-extinguishers/

Hand held extinguishers are not much use if you want to manage a fire you can't access instantly.  Although fires are rare, a Suppression Kit is a good investment given any significant fire will total your car.  Its not the damage to the plastic, wiring, electrical or engine that's the issue.  Even a small fire will stuff the metallurgy of the chassis.

Colin
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on September 28, 2021, 03:45:59 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 28, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Reckon it'll be good for at least an extra 5 km/h down the straight. ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 29, 2021, 05:37:37 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 28, 2021, 12:45:49 PM
Martini stripe has begun. If you are doing a full car stripe you will need around 4m to 5m.

Where did you get the stripes from? I'm looking for them for my GTA
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on September 29, 2021, 08:05:57 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on September 29, 2021, 06:08:28 PM
Type in Martini into that Ebay store and they have lots of varieties.

I've tried that but didn't exactly likes what I found. Thanks for the links, that'll help me with new car prep. Heaps of things to do, but I'm going for the livery first
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 05, 2021, 07:22:55 PM
Wonder if a Power Chisel would be a better option, or perhaps an Air Hammer

They have various attachments that can be fitted.

Just a thought.

https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/blackridge-blackridge-air-hammer-and-4-piece-chisels-175mm/572838.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvvyy6euy8wIVEDErCh2mQQC3EAQYAiABEgLs2fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 05, 2021, 11:20:46 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 05, 2021, 07:54:12 PM
However wouldn't surprise me if I ended up with more downforce/ground effect holes that need to be welded up.

It's an Air Hammer/Power Chisel . . . . one uses it with a subtle touch . . . . not like a Jack Hammer.  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 12, 2021, 09:01:46 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 11, 2021, 12:17:44 PM
Here is what the towing strap will screw into. This requires the foam bit behind the bumper to come off or be cut up to fit. This will need a much bigger hole in the bumper as the D Bracket is lower as well.

I don't like the angle of force that will be applied to the plate. With its thickness it can just crack and snap. Unless it's some expensive brand name strap. Hence why I stick to standard eye bolts. Yes, they bend, but so what? They are also free.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on October 12, 2021, 10:21:42 AM
Agree with use of the standard eye bolt.  However Schedule B (r) in the CAMS regs requires a 40mm dia "test tool" must be able to pass through the eye.  Its for this reason most people use an OMP, Sparco or whatever tow strap.  The return loop in the strap easily complies with the Schedule B (r) requirement.
Schedule B (r) also requires the tow device MUST support dragging the vehicle with all wheels locked across a sealed surface.  The recovery team MUST know what they are doing.  Seen some very brutal attempts at vehicle recovery with disastrous results!!
The tow strap plate could be bolted to the tow "eye" via the largest dia SHCS you can fit plus suitable flat washers.  Use a stainless steel nylock nut. 
The vehicle MUST be towed in line with the axis of the eye bolt or it may bend.  These eye bolts are drop forged like a spanner and "should" be pretty tough. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on October 12, 2021, 12:58:44 PM
See attached image of what I knocked together for my 75.  The M10 shackle is rated to 1000kg and complies with AS 2741.  M10 refers to the pin diameter - not the "bow" or "D" section.
You could use one of these to fix the tow strap to the eye bolt. 
I joined 2 tow straps as the tow "loop" welded to the 75 chassis rail is a fair way back from the front bumper.  One tow strap would have been too short.
The two straps pictured are joined via an M10 SHCS.  These are class 10.9 - pretty tough!!  Around 1100MPa as I recall.
The Alfa eye bolt pictured (from the wifes Giulietta) has a 26mm wide eye - so technically not legal for motorsport use.  Must be no less than 40mm.   
If you use the biggest dia SHCS that will fit through the hole in the tow strap plate (DO NOT DRILL OUT OR MODIFY THE TOW STRAP IN ANY WAY) and a couple of M10 HEAVY square washers you should be good to go.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
Phew, I just had 4 weekends of race meets straight. The car handled it just fine. And with some solid seat time I was able to get close to my 2019 records and even beat a couple. Which is while nice but slightly disappointing as the car seems a bit quicker to accelerate.

I've also officially became a Competition Convenor for AROCA QLD chapter. And now trying to scramble ideas how to lure new and returning folks into sprints, racing and so on. So any ideas are welcome.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 11:16:21 AM
These are some good ideas, some of that I've already done in the capacity of just a competitor. But maybe I wasn't persistent enough but I'll obviously continue. I'm just thinking that the auditory and the media wasn't right.

I plan a series of posts explaining the process etc.

It's all fun and safe but then you run into stuff like this:

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 13, 2021, 04:28:59 PM
That hits home so much. I even have some pictures.

That's me replacing the whole suspension in a multilevel car park. In someone else's spot too:
(https://a.d-cd.net/sgAAAgIFIeA-960.jpg)

And here's me installing poly bushes in a k i t c h e n (apparently the word is being replaced by SPAM when I just leave it):
(https://a.d-cd.net/rQAAAgIFIeA-960.jpg)

Older unit would have separate garages, so there's no problem at all. Though my lease wasn't renewed so we moved from 2-garage place to a place with 1 tiny garage which is all clogged with our stuff. I will be doing all the work just on a street. At least Queensland climate is in favour of such activities.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 02:07:50 PM
Either that or it has just faded to that lovely "Dusty Pink" colour, as it does.  :)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 20, 2021, 01:09:46 PM
I ordered two sets of wheel stud conversion kits (well, as is studs and nits) for both of my Alfas (again, for the two that are staying, there are two more to be sold) from Demon Tweeks.

Hopefully I picked the right length of 60 mm for the studs. The whole ordeal was mostly driven by the fact, that 17x9 Koya wheels that I have have too narrow bolt wells to accommodate standard bolts. And since I had to buy a solution, I opted to make my life more convenient.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 20, 2021, 11:28:17 PM
That tremor you all just felt folks was Enzo turning in his grave.  ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 21, 2021, 01:03:55 AM
Let me guess, to your wifes delight you also have a playroom full of train sets?  ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 21, 2021, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 20, 2021, 07:33:56 PM
Damn 17x9. Did you have to roll the guards? What size tyre are you running? And thats 17x9 front and back?

Well, I got those phat rims from Sydney when I saw them on Gumtree. They were off some racing 156 GTA. Can't really pass rare 5x98 wheels. They absolutely don't fit standard 156 guards but I since got 147 GTA, so hopefully they'll fit. I guards there are just flared enough. I shall see soon.

(https://a.d-cd.net/0KAAAgEh8-A-960.jpg)

(https://a.d-cd.net/LEAAAgAgS-A-960.jpg)

(https://a.d-cd.net/jEAAAgAgS-A-960.jpg)

Twin spark Alfas don't need wheels that wide, I think. Now, for the GTA they should be just right. I'll run same 17x9 on all 4 corners, though the front tires will be 245 and rears 235. Dang, it's about time I start the build threat of my own.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 25, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
It's good that people watch racing from a distance  :)

Though my car looks worse with all the paint flaky
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 10:13:37 AM
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 28, 2021, 11:11:24 AM
Quote from: warsch on October 28, 2021, 10:13:37 AM
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).

Twinspark is used for emissions in these engines, not HP

The JTS (when new) is cleaner (emissions), but then (like all the other brands), it soots up

You're average TS didn't make it to 150K km without the cam lobes wearing off or the selespeed confounding the average mechanic making the car an economic write off
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
I'd argue about TS not making it to 150kkm. Either way, we've dynoed two TSs with 200-300kkm and a couple of JTS with 140/260 kkm and TSs were heaps more powerful. The TS with 300km didn't have worn out cams. Never looked into mine, but I assume it's healthy too.

Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 12:44:11 PM
Quote from: warsch on October 28, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
I'd argue about TS not making it to 150kkm. Either way, we've dynoed two TSs with 200-300kkm and a couple of JTS with 140/260 kkm and TSs were heaps more powerful. The TS with 300km didn't have worn out cams. Never looked into mine, but I assume it's healthy too.

Just out of curiosity, what type of Dyno did you use? A rolling road or accelerometer?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 01:47:11 PM
Quote from: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 12:44:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, what type of Dyno did you use? A rolling road or accelerometer?

Stationary dyno with rollers.

Though the data is backed up by our observations at QR and Lakeside.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: warsch on October 28, 2021, 12:00:53 PM
Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.

I wouldn't say incompetent, but more unfamiliar.

Many a mechanic with good intentions and trying to help out an unfortunate client have come to grief with selespeed units, not because of lack of skills, but just simply not having the correct diagnostic software and a lack of experience and  with the units.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 28, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 03:29:13 PM
One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

You know, there could be some merit in this, my work car -  8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51423619794_2ec2856250.jpg)

Quote from: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 03:32:07 PM
I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.

Perhaps wishful thinking? Placebo affect?  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on October 28, 2021, 08:04:28 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 28, 2021, 05:44:43 PM
I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.

Like I said, we did dyno the cars back to back. That being said, my friend got his JTS to perform - rebuild the head and skimmed it a bit and did some minor porting. After that it started to accelerate just like my car, we did some "drag" racing while doing circuit sprints. His car is selespeed and it seems like upshifts are on par with a manual. And downshift obviously are superior on a selespeed.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 29, 2021, 08:03:04 PM
The twinspark used by Alfaholics (Alfa75, 155, 164, etal) bears no relationship to the twinspark used in the 147/156/GT.  It's a completely different engine, with a completely different lineage (heritage)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 30, 2021, 05:42:31 PM
That's an expanding band clamp (It goes by many names).

Basically to release it you press down on both the rectangular protrusions, this releases the internal metal bands from the groove in the pipe spigot on the radiator.

To refit it you just push it on and it clips into the groove, there is a rubber O-Ring in the fitting that seals the connection.

Unfortunately in your attempt to get it off you appear to have damaged the clamp. To be honest if I were you I would purchase a new lower radiator hose (it comes with a new fitting already attached), as when they get old the sealing O-Ring has a tendency not to seal well again once disturbed and can leak.

As it's going to be a track car, you don't want upset the track marshals by dumping coolant all over the track.  ;)

And yes, you can continue to use the green coolant green, just make sure you give the radiator AND the block a good flush.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on October 30, 2021, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on October 30, 2021, 05:40:36 PM
So figured I would spend some time on finishing up a few things. Trial fit of 60s le mans 24 hour race car livery ;D 8).

Well if you're ever coming up behind someone on the track they can't say they didn't see you coming . . . . . the guys on the ISS could see you coming!  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 12:10:44 PM
The speedlines are the sturdiest of 156/147/GT stock wheels. I have a set, but one is slightly buckled nonetheless. Ti wheels are the lightest of 17", 2 kg lighter than speedlines.

Though you'd eventually want a set of 16" to fit within TS cup regs.

It's been 17 pages, so I forgot if you've got tires already or not. So I can recommend Hankook RS4 or Sailun Atrezza. Both work well on track and are cheap. Hankook will last a bit more but is more expensive too.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 12:26:04 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 02:23:06 PM
Quote from: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 12:26:04 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

My 156 is give or take in the same condition and it weights 1130 kg with full tank but there's still some stuff to be removed. We've got a competitor here with full on race 156 and it weighs 1050 kg with a roll cage
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 05, 2021, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
I bought the control tyre for the ts cup but obviously can't race it due to the size of the wheel. May as well get used it on sprints.

Warsch you are right about the rear pads being pretty useless. These were down to the metal and I couldn't tell on the drive home when I bought the car ;D.

Regardless car is on the home stretch as will be ready for Phillip Island in a couple weeks as it's going to Maureci Motors to get the bucket seat and harness installed, timing belt and water pump and wheel alignment. Just ran out of time to do the timing belt etc myself.

Federals are a good choice, though for some strange reason they never appealed to me. 225 is a tad wide for 7" wide rim, but they'll be fine. The paint on the wheels looks quite good.

Good luck with your first outing, please make some pictures and videos and share
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 05:49:53 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 12:58:46 PM
Quote from: Colin Edwards on November 05, 2021, 12:26:04 PM
I'm curious as to how much car mass has been lost as a result of the fairly comprehensive shedding of material.
Did you weigh the car prior to hacking in to it? 
The club has corner weight scales if you want weigh the car.  Just need to find a very flat surface.

I am happy to weigh the car Colin. If you are at Phillip Island at the AROCA sprint than we could set them up? I took out the foam bumper bits behind the bumper, most of the dash is gone etc
I'll be at PI on the 21st.  I can bring the scales.  Make sure you bring a good trolley jack that will pick up one half of the car at a time.  Have you booked a garage?  The floors in the garages under the main grandstands aren't too bad. 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 05, 2021, 10:05:44 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 04:25:55 PM
Also here are the jack points that I am using for the rear. Found it by digging through threads. Disclaimer this isn't safety advice.

Just for future reference, that is not a good place to jack the car, as the rear suspension mount that you are using is made of alloy and bolted to the chassis at the ends, thus the center section is unsupported. I mention all this as people have cracked them in the past by using them as jack points.

Just thought I should mention it.

Have fun at the track, and do try and keep it upright.  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 06:33:53 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 05, 2021, 04:22:57 PM
Wanted to research the touring cars weight and there is a book on it already. Amazon have some 2nd hand copies at a good price.

I have this book, it's a nice one but don't expect too much technical stuff to look up in it
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 04:59:59 PM
I've got this one:
https://www.repco.com.au/en/tools-equipment/automotive-tools/braking/gearwrench-rear-brake-caliper-set-11pc-41540/p/A9716200

It works alright, though the older caliper that you have is more annoying to wind than newer ones

You need to wind and push at the same time which this tool does
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 06, 2021, 07:31:40 PM
I have a bag of calipers, but even though I have a set one like these, but one is half-seized too, caused the car to veer under braking. So I think the left one is stuffed.

I installed a set from facelift 147. Same rotor diameter but different caliper and pad.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 11, 2021, 05:38:03 PM
Could be any number of things, besides the obvious that you've already mentioned.  ;)

How long has it been since you last started it?

Diagnostics would hopefully give you an idea as to what would be wrong, otherwise it's all "taking potshots in the dark" guessing as to what it could be.

I'll start it all off with "Any fuel in the tank" ? 
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 12, 2021, 03:38:52 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 10:02:37 AM
Golden nugget of wisdom: Do not cut out the fuel cut off switch/wiring under the seat. This would make sense why it doesn't want to start and when cranking the fuel injector dash light warning is going on and off.


So the thought "I wonder what this does?" never entered your head as you were cutting the wires?  ???

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on November 13, 2021, 12:05:41 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on November 12, 2021, 03:56:40 PM
I had this diagram which showed it wasn't an earth cable.

Actually it IS an earth cable. The "Fuel Cut Off" switch works by opening the earth wire for the fuel pump.

"We're gonna need a bigger wiring diagram!"   ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on November 13, 2021, 04:57:37 PM
Get a TIG, easier, neater for small stuff

(opinion of fella with no vocational or professional experience, just dickn' around in the shed)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: johnl on November 14, 2021, 03:50:55 PM

So the sheetmetal holes were repaired using 9mm thick plates welded over them? IMO 9mm is way too thick, the patches ought to be near the same thickness as the sheet being repaired.

Bunnings $199 MIG welder? Is it 'gasless'? The weld quality looks like it is. I've tried using gasless MIG, and couldn't produce a nice weld with it no matter how hard I tried. I'd pay the extra for a real one, with gas...

Regards,
John.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: johnl on November 14, 2021, 05:54:59 PM
I understand making do with the less than ideal that is already at hand, or can justify the cost of, I do it all the time...

But I suspect that eventually you'll get fed up with the poor weld quality of 'gasless MIG', and get something a lot better and more versatile. My old arc welder makes smoother welds than shown in those photos, even with quite thin metal (which is why I don't own a MIG, i.e. nearly always I can weld it well enough with the trusty arc welder...). 

IMO the term 'gasless' can't really be used to describe a 'MIG' welder. Inherently the 'G' in 'MIG' stands for 'gas', ergo it can't be a MIG welder if a gas isn't used in the process. Yes, it could be argued that the core of the "gasless MIG" wire vapourises and forms an O2 excluding  'gaseous' shield surrounding the weld puddle, but pretty much the same thing happens when the coating of a welding 'stick' vapourises (as used in arc welding). Nobody is suggesting that an arc welder is a MIG...

I do think 9mm plate is way overkill for what you were trying to avoid. To weld the thin metal sheeting over and onto thick metal to avoid blasting holes, 3mm plate would be more than thick enough. I can't see that the thick plate will cause a problem in this particular case, but in theory it creates a stress riser around the weld, which in some applications might become a problem. It's just me being anal about good practice...

Regards,
John.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 15, 2021, 09:01:20 PM
Why weld at all when some reinforced duct tape would've done the job alright too?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 17, 2021, 05:28:07 PM
Impressive - Looks set to go. 
All sorted for Philip Island this Sunday?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on November 18, 2021, 11:06:51 AM
Well done! The car looking good, apart from the gap between the guard and the bumper which bugs me.

Is it your first time on a track ever or just in the Alfa?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 23, 2021, 12:12:21 PM
Car looked pretty good from up in Race Control - difficult to miss!. 
How did you go?
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Colin Edwards on November 29, 2021, 02:42:09 PM
Unfortunately shoulder strap anchor points are way too forward and way too low.  Angle of strap MUST be no more than 450 to the horizontal.  Ideally should be horizontal +/- 50
Look up Schedule I in the CAMS Manual.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on December 06, 2021, 12:57:24 PM
I've got this dorian timer bracket for about $10 at the only event I participated that uses dorian timers. Our both circuit use a different one, and third circuit yet another one.

As for the rear harness straps - I opted for a 3 mm steel plate that I used to reinforce the thin rear wall metal.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: alanm on December 07, 2021, 02:17:47 PM
It was great to see your car at PI – I love your enthusism!
Hopefully it's contagious and we see more Alfas at our events in the new year.
Regarding the discussion about the harness mounting points, Colin's is advice is good.
The Motorsport Australia rules are very specific about this for good reason – spinal damage is a risk with the anchors in their current position.
At present your car would fail inspection by a scrutineer for this reason.
This is of course a mute point if you install a cage before your next event!
Cheers,
Al.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on December 15, 2021, 01:50:26 PM
The bilsteins on that race car have not too much in common with B6/B8/B12.

Proper race units would have spring rates much higher and valving to match. The dampers would be 3-way adjustable, or at the very least 2-way.

I'm not too familiar with Bilstein competition products, but I did inquire into KW.

So KW and their daughter brand ST. Here's the pricing for 156:

ST suspension lowered kit - 800 AUD (35/25 Nm/mm spring rates)
KW var1 - 1300 AUD
KW var2 - 1800 AUD (80/40 Nm/mm)
KW var3 - 2000 AUD (80/40 Nm/mm)
KW competition 2 way - 4000 AUD (any spring rate, recommended is 120/160 Nm/mm for circuit applications)
KW competition 3 way - 10000 AUD (any spring rate, recommended is 120/160 Nm/mm for circuit applications)

Prices may not be up to date, but you get the idea.

And from my experience, +20% is not good enough for track work.

So for 156 I went from 3.5/2.5 kg to 12/5 kg, which is similar to TS cup control suspension rates. I also think even this may not be good enough if you run slicks, but I'm yet to try that.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on December 28, 2021, 09:00:36 PM
I've never mounted one of these (or used one)...... but don't they have to be facing a specific way?
(lengthwise, direction of travel, <400mm above road surface)



http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=2956
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 05, 2022, 11:51:35 AM
The grille holding the timer usually barely holds itself, so doesn't look at all sturdy to me. And like already mentioned, Dorians are directional.

As for 3.5 stock engine - yeah, that's quite a beast, and the intake is quite fancy there too. Though there are 3.7-3.8 Busso's being built around the world so at least the displacement aspect of that engine is well covered.

Brake line photo is a bit blurry, but it's all assembled correctly as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: jayarr on January 08, 2022, 09:47:28 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on December 28, 2021, 09:08:55 PM
Quote from: Craig_m67 on December 28, 2021, 09:00:36 PM
I've never mounted one of these (or used one)...... but don't they have to be facing a specific way?
(lengthwise, direction of travel, <400mm above road surface)



http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=2956

Probably right. I had it in a plastic bag duct tapped and closed by the door on the bottom sill during the track days and it worked on a couple of different cars. I saw some people had it mounted vertically and it worked. I guess horintal is the way to go maybe half way or top of the grill.
Reckon the cable tie (as seen in the photo) will interfere with holding the Dorian. I've pop rivetted the same type of holder under the car in a recessed area which is not prone to damage if riding over a kerb. Added additional holes either side to crisscross cable ties for extra security.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 16, 2022, 04:14:02 PM
It's not too hard to fit AGI roll cage, any decent workshop should be able to.

I was planning to order AGI cage as well, but three months wait, oh dear. I though it would be about 6 weeks. Well, there goes my beginning of the season. At least I still can and will do sprints and super sprints.

You can find heaps of weld in options from smaller vendors, prices are about the same for the same spec cage usually.

Any shop can do alignment, but you would have to tell them what to set. So front camber can't be set with standard arms, it depends on ground clearance. The lower the more camber. It would be something like -2..-2.5 degrees, so maybe start with -1..-1.5 degree camber at the back with 0 front toe and a bit of rear toe in.

Aircon out is an easy DIY. Just need a shorter belt. The rest is quite easy to unbolt and remove.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 16, 2022, 10:10:34 PM
Judging by AGI's full cage pictures, I don't think you can order half cage and then buy the rest later. The full one has pegs protruding towards the front from the main hoop. And some sockets for door diagonals.

Yeah, degassing is required. It's handy when you already have non functional aircon that leaked all the gas prior. Yes, you unbolt the compressor, then its bracket, remove all the pipes and condenser (radiator). Pipes are allow, so you can just break them where you can reach and leave the rest till better times. You need 6PK1080 belt.

That lexan kit costs so much. I reckon you can get a set locally cheaper. There's a local Alfisti here in QLD that does it, though I never asked the pricing.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 17, 2022, 02:12:14 PM
There's only one fan behind the radiator and you sure want to keep it. Maybe go lightweight but you still want it there for when you line up for the start etc.

You sure can pay for all the work, I just have the mindset of doing the most of the work myself. Some may not be confident to work on suspension or brakes, but getting rid of an aircon is surely low risk exercise.

Please update on what AGI say about extending the cage.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 17, 2022, 08:50:51 PM
Well, I guess the bringing back part is a deal breaker for me.

Ok, so I assume your car is the same CF2 version as mine, which means there's only one cat underneath. All the O2 sensors this car has are before the cat, so you can do whatever. I my case, I just unbolted the exhaust and gutted the cat with a crow bar. It made substantial gain in the lower rev range, made the car much more pleasant in traffic. Hard to tell if did much at higher revs, but certainly haven't made it worse, apart from terrible tin can sound. Later I learned that you can sell a cat for $100, which usually what exhaust shops would ask for welding in a straight pipe.

Now 147s are different as they are CF3 with three cats. I think you still can get rid of them and the engine wouldn't mind. But never tried.

Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 20, 2022, 12:35:24 PM
The aircon is a dead weight and quite a power drain. The heater/blower does just fine in the rain, though I have to admit I've participated in 24h endurance. But I also don't think there's high chances of participating in 24h in the rain.

I wonder what is the lap time difference with aircon on and off, might be interesting to try. I reckon it's a few tenths a lap.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Citroënbender on January 20, 2022, 08:33:25 PM
It would be difficult to quantify an exact difference due to the displacement control valve.

Compressor is about 4.5kg dressed, there's 600-odd grams of gas, probably another 4-5kg in the evaporator, condenser, drier and plumbing. So 9-10 kilograms of system mass; likely a little over 1% of your race weight.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on January 21, 2022, 03:38:59 PM
It's 10 kg on the front axle which is overloaded, so it's always a good thing. 1% does not matter that much, but it's 1% here, another 1% there, and suddenly the car is 10% lighter.

Though I was more about leaving it running and draining power off the engine. Not sure if it can by dynoed, but lap times with aircon on and off are easy to compare.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Citroënbender on January 21, 2022, 04:08:11 PM
The other effect of AC on, is fan running constantly at least on low speed. So there's probably an electrical draw of 100-120W which translates as extra load at the alternator pulley.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: Beatle on January 21, 2022, 09:45:46 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on January 18, 2022, 11:48:33 AM
Just reading some track car threads and a good poiint for keeping the air con is to keep the front windows from fogging up on colder raining days. May be applicable if you are doing a 24h race.

I doubt the 156 aircon would make any noticeable difference to screen fogging on a stripped out track car in the wet.......   It can barely keep up in normal road use.
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: martym00se72 on June 06, 2022, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: warsch on December 06, 2021, 12:57:24 PM
As for the rear harness straps - I opted for a 3 mm steel plate that I used to reinforce the thin rear wall metal.

Can you put up some pics of this option please? I am doing F98 in SA and want to mount the harness straps near horizontal as I have just invested in a FHR and decent helmet. Was thinking whether a bar could be attached to the child seat anchor points or eye bolts through the rear head rest holes with a backing plate. It's a full street car, so not tricked out like OP's nice piece of work, but a load of fun and I have decided to do it all a bit safer - the FHR instructions say it is pretty dangerous having the shoulder strap anchor points down low (currently my harness is anchored in the same manner as OP and scrutineers have given me a going over once or twice - one even said I should use my normal seat belt in place of the harness (WTAF!!)). Wanting options that do not destroy the interior, but can live without the rear headrests in place when on track.
Cheers
Marty
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: warsch on June 09, 2022, 04:53:47 PM
The way I have mine set up, requires removal of rear seats. I drilled through the rear firewall and just put the steel plate across from the back.

It is reversible (save for the holes) but will take some time to undo and redo. My car is about as stripped as the OPs, so I don't mind that.

Child seat harness mounts are too flimsy in my opinion. They are fine for a child, but I don't think they will hold up well for a heavy adult in motorsports environment
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on June 09, 2022, 05:11:55 PM
Quote from: warsch on June 09, 2022, 04:53:47 PM
Child seat harness mounts are too flimsy in my opinion. They are fine for a child, but I don't think they will hold up well for a heavy adult in motorsports environment

I agree about the child seat mounts, and as for you being "heavy", I think you're missus would say you are just extra cuddly.  ;)
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on June 14, 2022, 06:20:19 PM
You're selling it!  The Horror!  :o
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
Post by: bazzbazz on June 14, 2022, 08:47:26 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on June 14, 2022, 07:53:18 PM
Yeah it's not the best but playing musical chairs with multiple cars gets tiring ::)

Frank! I need you to move the 156 so I can get to the 75 so I can move the Alfetta so I can reverse the Brera and take the 147 . . . . . . .

Some say tiring, others say blessing . . . . . .  ;D
Title: Re: Twin Spark Cup 156 Project
Post by: Craig_m67 on June 25, 2022, 06:21:14 PM
I didn't know about that auction site.. cheers 👍
GLWTA


and.... OMG; yellow Giulia Super, fark'n gorgeous!