Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 939 Series (159, Brera and Brera Spider) => Topic started by: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM

Title: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on July 02, 2021, 09:05:22 PM
Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic  :)
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Chet on July 07, 2021, 02:37:28 AM
Thanks Stu. 
Does anyone know which is better, the Mace kits or original GM kit?
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Colin Edwards on July 07, 2021, 02:28:29 PM
INA is an extremely reputable bearing manufacturer.  Their needle roller bearings and cages etc are second to none.  I have used their roller cages in 17000rpm 2 stroke kart race engines for ever. 
Anything with their name on it should be trusted.

The JTS chains wear due to lack of good quality lubricant brought about by soot created by DI engines such as the JTS. 
Its highly unlikely timing chains "stretch" as some claim.  If they did indeed stretch due to "soft" inner link or outer link material the pins would pull out causing catastrophic failure as opposed to simple elongation due to wear. 
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on July 08, 2021, 08:01:29 PM
but it also says "with a full exhaust" Tango. On a Commodore, that would be a cost effective exercise, different story on a 159 though. We're talking Auto Delta for headers, imported and fitted. The Mace cams are a decent price, but add on the headers etc and you're talking a very expensive 30kw, as nice as it would be.

Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on July 10, 2021, 03:42:08 PM
maybe try the UK forum to see if you can locate someone that has fitted them Tango?

On the sound / idle issue, which would be worse, an Alfa sounding like an old school v8 or a GM engine trying to sound like an Alfa?  ;D

Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: bazzbazz on July 10, 2021, 03:48:28 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on July 09, 2021, 08:21:11 AM
True. But it's still a $650 upgrade plus a couple of labour hours so say $1k.

A couple of hours hours work!??   ???

I'd pay good money to see that.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 03, 2021, 06:06:34 AM
Quote from: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

The 3.2 JTS is effectively the LLT version of the Holden. And a very good engine at that. What Alfa did was not up to their normally high standards for engines. Timing chains suffer as a consequence.

However, Mace kits are very good. They have revised them to improve their durability. I have their kit fitted to my 3.2 JTS with C.B. cams, Autodelta headers and Supersprint Sports cat/exhaust system.

True, I have made other modifications to my engine to balance oil flow/pressure across the block, which has improved timing enormously. But that aside, Mace are to be recommended, not least because the quality is so good for the money. There again, Alfa charge so much for everything, anyone's kit is a bargain by comparison.

Do the cams, headers and the exhaust and you will see north of 300bhp. The engine will then do justice to the superb 159 platform - better than the Brera.

However, unless the engine is out for a rebuild, it is an expensive exercise.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 03, 2021, 06:46:51 AM
Quote from: Alfatango on July 09, 2021, 08:21:11 AM
True. But it's still a $650 upgrade plus a couple of labour hours so say $1k. But it does say something about a lumpy idle and hopefully that's an option. Don't need the alfa pretending to be an old school v8 ;D. It seems like the best value for money mod that I have come across.

Would a set of cams means that you would have to run in the modified class at the alfa sprints? I guess a lumpy idle would give it away ;D. Unless you just say it's an alfa idling problem...

I doubt there is any truth in the "lumpy idle"; the lift is the same, the duration is even less than Alfa's standard cams and the engine has NVO at idle. So unless they have changed the lobe centres, they won't sound particularly sporty. Plus, unless those Manifold cats are replaced, they will just choke whatever one does with the engine!
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS
Post by: Ascari32 on August 03, 2021, 05:47:42 PM
Quote from: Stu159 on July 02, 2021, 09:05:22 PM
Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic  :)
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

Hi Stu - how's it going?

To my knowledge, on the general Alfa Forum UK, no one has fitted Mace cams to their 3.2 JTS. Indeed, as Far as I am aware I am the only guy to fit C.B. Special camshafts and they had been sitting on E.B.'s shelves for many year, until I came along.

Having fitted C.B. to five previous Alfa's, I had a pretty good idea just how good they would be.

The Mace cams look really good value but their lift is the same and their duration less than Alfa's. So, unless they have moved their lobe centres, the NVO: 2.5deg. static valve timing will have increased.

To gain more power, all things being equal, one needs higher lift or duration - or a combination thereof.

I'd like to get my hands on a set of Mace cams to test. I have a pair of tools to enable me to swap out cams easily and it would be an interesting exercise - but I doubt Mace would oblige.

The Man cats need to go to improve breathing, although Autodelta say they can be replaced with the engine in situ, it is a time consuming exercise. The central Alfa cat is rubbish, with a capital "R" and best replaced with a sports cat, where both banks conjoin at the input and not the outlet. That will make tremendous difference to scavenging/gas flow characteristics. And the car will sound much better at higher revs.

I could go on. But it seems this topic is really just a talking point as it is clear, from the amount needed to be spent puts people off. It is no different on the UK forum, so cat-back systems will remain all the rage. Which is fair enough, at least it gives folks the opportunity to personalise their cars, even if it makes very little tangible difference to performance.

Aside from the price of the Mace cams, there may be an extra bonus in that they could be reground to change the valve timing - something that C.B. can do with theirs.

The Alfa cams can be reground for more torque, but not power - maybe an extra 1 hp at best.

But, regrinding for more torque means increasing the duration and that would rid the 3.2 JTS of NVO and definitely make it sound more Characteristically Alfa - esque!
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 04, 2021, 05:03:18 PM
Quote from: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

I hope you have finally got your answer to the question of which kit to use. However, to clear up any ambiguity, the 3.2 JTS uses a morse type primary chain - from the crankshaft to the two "Idlers" above.

These Idlers are driven by the morse, but take their drive via "Roller" chains to the Camshaft VVT Phasor Sprockets.

If you intend to replace the chains, it is wise to do all tensioners as well as these are the fundamental reason why the chains stretch in the first place {unable to maintain tension over an extended period}. True cause is poor oil pressure, principally on the lower timing (morse) chain tensioner.

But that is another story.

I bought my kit directly from Mace who I found to be very helpful. The 3.2 JTS is the LLT version and their kits are specific to each variant - good to see a company still supplying a dwindling number of cars. I should also point out that the original tensioners fitted were prone to failure, with dire consequences. The Mace kit is updated and of high quality.

Kits can be bought on the internet, however, they can be from dubious sources. Buying direct from Mace I felt the safest option.

Enough free advertising for them - as I am sceptical  of the camshaft claims.

They could always let me have a set to test???????
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 04, 2021, 07:47:09 PM
Quote from: Alfatango on July 07, 2021, 11:41:41 PM
Quote from: Stu159 on July 02, 2021, 09:05:22 PM
Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic  :)
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

Wow 30rwkw with the cams. Didn't know that was an option.

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/epages/mace.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/mace/Categories/Vehicles/Alfa_Romeo/159


"They Must Have Changed Their Lobe Centres".

I have been puzzling over Mace Cams for my JTS and had more detail been available, would have considered them - particularly given the cost of CB's.

They give so little away, so let's look at what information there is, taking the inlet cam first.

Alfa's is 254deg., opening at 11.5deg. atdc. Mace is 210deg. That is 44deg. less duration than Alfa's!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean the Mace was opening 22deg. later than Alfa's???? - 33.5deg. atdc???????

Take the exhaust: -

Alfa's is 250deg. and closes at 9deg. atdc. Mace's is 210deg. That is 40deg. less duration than Alfa's!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean Mace's was closing 20deg. earlier than Alfa's!!!!!!

Therefore, assuming Lobe centres stayed the same, a 3.2 JTS, fitted with Mace cams would have static timing angles of: -

11deg. (9-20)  btdc exhaust valve closes. 33.5. (11.5+22) atdc inlet opens. That results in a 44.5deg. of Negative Valve Overlap!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless my calculations are wrong and I don't believe they are, they "Must" have moved the lobe centres.

If they remain the same, and the engine "Was" able to tick-over, it would be very lumpy indeed. And even more gutless. More to the point, the engine would not make 30 Kw more power, regardless of what exhaust system was fitted.

I don't believe it would meet emissions standards either - well certainly not European.

So, in the firm belief, Mace are an Honest Company, they must have moved the Lobe centres, they just aren't telling us!

For a Characteristic "Lumpy Idle", I believe the valve timing has changed to create PVO - Positive Valve Overlap.

However, They definitely would not move the valve timing to "Outside the 3.2 JTS's Maximum Advance/Retard Angles".

So what might they have done?

Well, "Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery" and it is not uncommon for manufacturers to buy competitors products, to produce their own in completion.

With this in mind, Colombo Bariani maintained lobe centres, but increased duration. This took inlet opening time from 11.5deg. atdc to 0.5deg. btdc.; the exhaust from 9deg. atdc to 23deg. atdc., closing time took it to 23deg. atdc. Creating 23.5deg. of PVO!

So Mace could safely do the same, acknowledging their lower duration, they could still move their lobe centres to open the inlet at 0.5deg. BTDC and close their exhaust at 23.0deg. ATDC., creating the same PVO.

I think there is a little more to it than this, but generally, it must be what they have done. it still puts the 3.2JTS below 300 bhp, and there must be other factors involved if what they say is to be believed, given the do not increase lift, which would give more power and they do not increase duration which would improve the top end.

So come on Mace - tell us the whole story!

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on August 19, 2021, 09:49:35 PM
Hi Ascari,

Yep, I'm all good, well locked down here good.........I suppose. Gladys seems to think I'm OK? I never thought I'd wish I was playing first grade rugby league, but at the moment, it's considered an essential service??? Like Doctors & nurses.....

I see you're in your usual fine form with those cracker posts!

In reference to the UK forum, I read it ages ago. There was an ongoing debate where Alfa fans were going at it with people saying the CB cams were better and someone chimed in and said they wouldn't be so sure that an Italian company would make better cams for an Aussie engine, than an Aussie company could. The next comment was something along the line of plenty of our members are running Mace cams and are really happy with them. They didn't actually state that they were in the UK though, so they could be from anywhere. Sorry, I don't have a specific link but I do recall I found it with a google search. I think this is it https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/3-2-159.826097/page-2 there's also a lot of carry on about the engine also, so you'll love it. It's an extensive thread. If it's not this particular thread it was somewhere else on this forum, I think? Either way there'll be plenty there of interest to you

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 20, 2021, 03:54:31 AM
Glad to hear it Stu. Me? Just trying to maintain my sanity, although it may drive others crackers.

Yes, I was involved with those posts but things have moved on quite a bit since; i.e., the C.B.'s were a pipe dream at the time given they are only made to order. However, I found E.B. Spares had a set buried amongst their old stock. They just could not sell them. So I think they bit my hand off when I bought them.

However, I have been on the U.K forum for over a decade and nobody stuck their head above the parapet to say they had bought Mace cams. I got my timing chain kit, a new crankshaft and shells from Mace and I regard then highly.

But the angles they quote for their cams and the fact that they are the same lift as Alfa's suggests the only way they could improve performance is by moving the lobe centres. However, I am extremely sceptical about their claims unless they include a host of other changes: headers, exhaust and maybe remap.

As far as the 3.2 JTS engine is concerned, one specialist independent said he would not rebuild mine, citing the cost of parts, if indeed he could find them. Another said he rebuilt two, one for a long term customer and another for a friend and lost a shed load of money on them - he felt he couldn't pass the cost onto the customers and took the hit.

Dealerships wouldn't go further than sell me a new engine at £16,500 or a reconditioned one -bought in for £12,500.

I found that the UK Forum guys, and this is not a criticism, stick to suspension mods, cat - backs and incidentals on the whole. None to my knowledge have undertaken to rebuild or modify their engines. To be fair, I think you have more 3.2 JTS's in Aus. They are being scapped at a hell of a rate here in UK. I think mine is one of only half a dozen currently on the road, the Q4 is incredibly rare.

Cams, as far as the average punter is concerned, need to be done when timing chains are replaced. That adds to the cost of the whole process and there is little confidence/belief, they will make a difference. However, I had C.B.'s on five occasions and I know how good they are. To get a set made by C.B., you need to splash out £2,200 + vat and it is no less expensive on Mainland Europe or the Far East. And they do sell!!!!!!!

Mine, to my knowledge are the only ones on a 3.2 JTS in Britain as far as I am aware.  But the C.B.'s won't perform anywhere near their best without changes to the manifolds, the exhaust system as a whole and the VVT system.

They can never give their best if the camshaft angles aren't maintained operationally - and that means improvement to the timing chain tension - improving oil flow pressure and the VVT system.

It is a hell of an expense and folks can't/won't pay, given the cost is so indeterminate as far as garages in UK are concerned. In esence, it ends up as a purely hypothetical debate with lots of speculation about gains and the old chestnut "Remapping".

However, there are only two published Dyno - runs of the 3.2 JTS on the Forum - mine and a Fellow Australian Compatriot who had the balls to fit my C.L.L.S, and did my VVT mods. And to the guy's eternal credit, I asked him to undertake two Dynamometer runs - pre and post, which he was happy to do. Top Man!

There are none of an engine with Mace cams fitted - and one would think, if anyone is that serious, they would want to know!

The big problem wrt the camshafts was overcome when I designed a pair of cam - sprocket carriers which allow the cams to be swapped out whilsts the chains remain in situ. But still, I can well understand the reluctance to do anything given the 159, Brera and Spider are long obsolete and spares incredibly difficult.

The Twin cat under the car is just as problematic as the manifold cats and this leads to even more expense. All in all, it just isn't worth it, despite it being an important exercise for me, given I am retired.

But there is so much to like about the car, it's almost as if the engine is superfulous. Rip out the 3.2 JTS and fit a 3.0 Busso, from a 75 with a transaxle and it would be a better motor than it is with the Standard 3.2 JTS engine. And rear wheel drive to boot!

But hell, when it is modified, the 3.2 JTS is a cracker - I wouldn't want anything else under the bonnet - now that the work has been done.

Of course, Mace could always supply me with a set of cams and I would bench test them and provide the results. Jeez - you could not blame anything else if they failed to perform, given the extesive modifications on my car - all in the right areas.

So come on Mace, stick a set in the post to me!

     
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 20, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjer44r4m8

A little distraction - the real reason Alfa Survived and Lancia did not - "Limone", and you can't get a more authoritive figure than Sergio.

And the Historical source of the winning 155 engine, as well as the reason why the 159 was dead in the water, wrt racing. Its potential for being developed for competition is roundly "Scotched". So that ghost is well and truly laid to rest!

https://youtu.be/DRcFpmQL3bc

Fiat just do not come out of these interviews well at all, although Limone speaks dispassionately about the issue. Given the 155 engine came from Lancia, which in itself came from Peugeot, it is perhaps fortunate the French are once again involved. Let's hope too, they restore Lancia to their rightful place - amongst the "Creme' de la Creme'".



Davide Cirone performs an important role with his interviews. We need the kind of history the likes of people like Sergio Limone can give us. It is the only way we can prevent their contribution and the history they have, from becoming lost.


Somehow, I can't see Clarkson performing such a role - his ego continually gets in the way of everything. Maybe James May, but Clarkson - no!
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Alfatango on August 20, 2021, 06:03:21 PM
Love Davide Cironi's channel. His interview with the 156 touring car driver, f40 creator and gandini vids are my favourite.

The 159 did dominate bathurst ;D
https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-diesels-dominate-at-bathurst/
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 20, 2021, 06:17:53 PM

Impressive! The 2.4D is a great engine.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on August 20, 2021, 11:02:16 PM
the V6 is getting very rare and I agree, it's a great car to drive. I'm reminded of the rarity when I have to source parts  :) I still enjoy it though. With the price of old Alfas in general pretty good, maybe one day, while I'm still alive???, it might even attract a decent resale price. The Alfa purists will always hate it, but the more practical minded will appreciate it. Mine is a manual also. At the moment I would say the Brera has aged better, but these things change with time. Adjusting the stance, as I have with mine, makes a huge difference to the look of the saloon. When I bought it back in 2008, to my eyes, the saloon was a better looking car than the Brera. Whenever I see a Brera though, I'm reminded of how much I want one. If only for the interior, let alone the ageless body.

The Mace cam performance claim clearly states "with a full exhaust" as I've pointed out on here before. What that actually means, only they know. As far as I know, on a 159, in Australia "a full exhaust" means thousands of dollars, importing headers from Auto Delta with fitting. When it comes time to do my timing chain, I'm going to look at adding their cams though. We'll be able to go nuts on here when that happens  ;D

Stay safe Ascari!

Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 21, 2021, 01:09:11 AM
Cheers Stu - you too, in fact we all need to be mindful, this thing hasn't gone away.

Brera hasn't really aged but there is some stiff competition out there, as far as two door coupe's are concerned.

Love the Spider, but it is big, almost tank size proportions.

But the 159? It's not a Beemer look alike', as the Giulia is. My son drew better designs as a ten year old, than the Giulia!

However, the 159 is understated. Nothing stands out; it is an elegant car for its size. Not beautiful as is the original 156 with its "Pinched" waist and uncluttered body. However, even  those who disparage Alfa, acknowledge the 159 looks great.

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on August 21, 2021, 05:34:32 AM
I meant the Mace cams by the way, not CB.

Did you also see noted on that thread that some guy had a 3.6 High Feature out of a Camaro with the Alfa heads on it? Wasn't clear if it was in an Alfa or just an idea though

Interesting comment about the Spider. I agree, it appears cumbersome these days, but again, I recall when buying my car from the dealership, drooling over the Spider that was there as it was so beautiful. It looked completely on at that time. Everything was in proportion. That's probably the thing I like the most about car designs, how some age well, some don't. Their shapes go in and out of fashion over the years and you can see it. They go through awkward periods and then eventually emerge again to look somehow modern. Of course the great thing about Alfa is because there aren't many around, their look doesn't date so quickly, like say an Audi or something. The Italians will always be the kings when it comes to motor art.

The 95-2005 era GTV is another good example. The coupe sort of looks like it might get there visually, but still isn't quite. I don't know much about that model but it appears to be good value for money. There's a tan colour spider in that model, that parks not far from my place and it looks perfect to me. Brand new condition and a real eye catcher. If I was willing to own a Spider, this one would be good enough to encourage me to go there.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 21, 2021, 07:04:34 AM
Nothing ever came of that 3.6 project to my knowledge. It's a nightmare just getting spares for a standard 3.2 JTS. The ECU would create a headache and the MAF is difficult to get right just with extra breathing, let alone an extra 400 cc.

Would be interesting to see if it has been done.

My 3.0 GTV is a '98, had it from virtually new, now only 30,000 miles - continental holidays only. Having had a Alfetta 2.5 GTV6, again from almost new, sort of spoilt the 916 version for me. But the tan leather and the interior is superb. It is beautifully finished off and the Busso 3.0 is brilliant. But the front wheel drive compromises it, the rear is a bit bulbous and the drivers seat a bit high. Phase threes had their seats lowered by about an inch.

But there is no denying it is a great continental cruiser - eats the miles and the C.C. keeps one cool. On balance, I do love it, but not to the same degree as the Alfetta GTV 6.

But the Q4 of the 159 is in a league neither GTV's are  - it is so well planted. Both GTV's are edgy near the limit, although the Alfetta was more predictable. But the Q4, doesn't share that.

By comparison, it is boringly predictable, the Torsen four wheel system so good. And at my age, I have matured into boring predictability.

But, it's not fair to compare them in this way. All three cars are a cut, way above the rest.

My GTV 3.0, being Alfa Red has suffered with fading bumpers so they are in one of the bedrooms now, after being resprayed. The problem now is, I have got a hell of a job to do, bringing the rest of her paintwork up to the same standard. I just had my runners restored. So I have a lot to keep me busy for a while.

I have taken lots of pictures to record the condition as she will be sold soon. But, being rust free, low mileage and having owned her so long - one previous owner who only did a few thousand before swapping it for a 156, given his family was expanding - she won't be going cheap. If I get my price, yes, if not, I will keep her a while longer, living in the garage as she has for most of her life.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: torquemeister on August 30, 2021, 05:04:47 PM
Quote from: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

Hi CHet

As others suggest Mace is your best bet for a timing chain kit. Its not the chain but the tensioners that wear due to poor oil pressure and or the wrong oil. My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference-  engine seems to run freer and a couple of degrees cooler. Go figure.
The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers.

Orque in Japan has some excellent headers worth checking out - I expect it will be a full engine out job to fit them so will replace mounts and timing chain at that time. Probably bring Bella over to the Mainland (Im in Tassie) and leave her with a specialist there for a week or two to get it done.

Here is the link to Orque (the Japanese are MAD about Alfas).

http://www.orque.co.jp/tuneup/alfa_159,brera,spider_1_1.htm

PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine.

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: bazzbazz on August 30, 2021, 06:37:46 PM
Quote from: torquemeister on August 30, 2021, 05:04:47 PM
My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference

Sorry, no, it doesn't.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 30, 2021, 07:16:23 PM
No! I don't believe Selenia makes that much difference either. Although it is a good oil, there are others on the market just as good, if not better. It depends what you demand from your oil and one can pay a lot for it. The fact that they can charge so much is because of the techknowlegy they invest, in producing it.

"PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine."

No one has said the 159 is a better platform to my knowledge. The Brera as pointed out is 150mm. shorter and that is where the difference lies.

The Berlina too was better than the Bertie insofar as being that bit longer wheelbase; but the same platform, it handled better. I am talking here of standard cars not heavily modified for racing. The Berlina was better balanced in my opinion because of the extral length.

This too is an aspect of the difference between the Brera and the 159. That 150mm. is significant. Also, if one looks at other  cars in history, small changes to wheelbases have made tremendous differences to handling.

The 159 Q4, 3.2 JTS unquestionably handles better than the Brera, imho. 
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 30, 2021, 07:39:37 PM
Quote from: torquemeister on August 30, 2021, 05:04:47 PM
Quote from: Chet on June 26, 2021, 03:44:03 AM
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

Hi CHet

As others suggest Mace is your best bet for a timing chain kit. Its not the chain but the tensioners that wear due to poor oil pressure and or the wrong oil. My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference-  engine seems to run freer and a couple of degrees cooler. Go figure.
The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers.

Orque in Japan has some excellent headers worth checking out - I expect it will be a full engine out job to fit them so will replace mounts and timing chain at that time. Probably bring Bella over to the Mainland (Im in Tassie) and leave her with a specialist there for a week or two to get it done.

Here is the link to Orque (the Japanese are MAD about Alfas).

http://www.orque.co.jp/tuneup/alfa_159,brera,spider_1_1.htm

PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine.


"The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers."

The 3.2 JTS valve timing denies the oportunity to benefit from serious gas flow techniques. So I am not sure what anyone means about real power boost. If one is serious about wanting to increase the power output of this engine - and it can be increased by a substantial amount, whilst remaining N/A, the camshafts have to be replaced.

There is no question there will be improvements with the changes suggested above, but not, in my opinion, sufficient to justify the expense.

Trust me, it is an expensive and time consuming exercise, with no easy solution. The 3.2 JTS in standard guise is a dog of an engine. Aside from the inherent problems such as block restrictions, poor oil flow/pressure distribution and small sump capacity without any baffles to prevent surge and a high oil pick - up snout, oil returning from the heads directly into the path of the rotating journals - whipping it into windage and adding to the transit time for the oil reurning to the sump, inadequate valve overlap due to ridiculous NVO means very little can be done to improve Scavenging.

Aside from the manifold cats, conjoining the two banks after the under - floor second twin cat, destroys any chance of really good gas flow.

However, If this is what folks see as the way forward, that's fine. But it's not something I would recommend.   
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Storm_X on April 14, 2022, 02:21:27 PM
The alfa 3.2 runs the GM block that was built here in Australia.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on July 25, 2022, 09:45:52 PM
Hi Stu!

I'm doing ok thanks! You?

I posted my latest Dynamometer run on the UK forum - "3.2 tuning". Still working -away on her, but enjoying every minute of it.

My Dyno run had been delayed as i still had problems relates to MAF. I bought a Petrol - Chip, which made it much simpler to rationalize the problem. But it has led me to investigate other areas - associated with it; still MAF related. As i was being cautious, I cranked the Chip down as I was concerned about running lean at the top end. I need not have worried as she was still rich, 11.5:1 at the top. however, cranking the chip down limited the torque to 300Nm.@6900rpm as it limits the MAF output voltage. The net result is 291PS@~6900rpm, but had been braver and left the chip switched out, it would have been higher, possibly 295 - 300. But I need to do some calculations first to give a reasonably accurate figure. No matter, she will be going back on the dyno in a few weeks, once I have addressed the issue of the MAF element, and crucially, the body/Sample/Sensor Tube.

The rub is, the MAF Amplifier is saturating (no further output voltage for increased airflow) and the Slatted Screen in front of the sensor tube causes Airflow restriction when the ECU goes into open loop (ignores the Lambdas) above circa 5 -6000rpm.

So a lot more investigation/modifications to be done. But sure as eggs are eggs, this thing will make 320bhp imho!

Stay safe,

Brian.

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on July 26, 2022, 08:41:02 PM
got it! Really looking forward to the end result mate. Thanks for the update

Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 15, 2022, 03:38:56 PM
Attachments to illustrate modifications to the Alfa MAF, i.e. the Slatted - Screen over the Venturi Tube. Also, an A/B comparison between my modified 159 and my mates, pristine Q4 3.2JTS Brera.

The plot for my 159 was started circa 3000rpm as the Dynamometer cooling fans, blowing into the front of the car were upsetting the AFR at low rpm. It is thought this is as a result of the very large Positive Valve Overlap, the Colombo Bariani camshafts have introduced to the engine.

This A/B comparison was the latest, before the modifications to the MAF body. The Slatted - Screen, was removed as it seems to cause considerable air flow restriction, which only became apparent when the rpm was taken beyond the Alfa Stated limits. It can be seen on my previous torque plot, where the torque is "Limited" at the top end to ~ 300Nm. The fact that it does not fall below ~ 300Nm. can only be because, the natural torque of the engine is sufficiently strong enough to counter the airflow inertia the Slatted - Screen generates.

My belief is, if this airflow inertia was eliminated, torque would be naturally higher, hence my decision to remove it. Tests are continuing to optimize the "New Design/Modification", after which the 159 will be returning for a further Dynamometer run. The "Flat" response at the top end convinces me, the engine is well balanced, so I hope - after further consultation - to run the engine above 7000rpm, hopefully to see where the torque naturally starts to fade.

The Slatted - Screen is very restrictive. It is stated by Bosch that the MAF element only samples a small portion of airflow and the remaining air flowing through the body is unmetered. The ECU program accounts for the difference between the small sample and the remainder within it's program. My calculations indicate 25% passes though the Venturi and 75% through the remaining unmetered body.

It is my belief, that whilst the ECU/Lambdas are in closed loop, the ECU can compensate for the Slatted - Screen inertia. However, when in "Open Loop", the airflow inertia has a profound effect upon the engine torque at high rpm.

The next Dynamometer run, will confirm or not, if this is true!   
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on August 15, 2022, 09:37:40 PM
Quote from: Stu159 on July 26, 2022, 08:41:02 PM
got it! Really looking forward to the end result mate. Thanks for the update

Stu

Stu,

Initially when I removed the Slatted - Screen, I believed if the airflow through the Venturi and the remainder of the MAF housing were the same, this would result in a leaner AFR, than the one recorded during my Dyno run.   

With the status quo, it is presumed the embedded ECU figure for the airflow through the unmetered section of the MAF represents 75% of the total airflow, the remainder;25%, being through the Venturi. This is a guess-timation, or at the very least, an assumption that the airflow inertia suffered through the Venturi is the same as that through the rest of the MAF body! But it cannot budget for any airflow inertia suffered, through the Venturi, due to the slatted screen's opposition to airflow. A factor which I maintain is non - linear.

With the removal of the slatted screen, the airflow through the Venturi and the rest of the body is much more accurately reflected wrt the embedded figure in the ECU program.   

Certainly the Cat seemed to come up to temperature quicker, the idle was quieter and the throttle response sharper still. However, it all seemed a little too "Raw"; crude, is probably more accurate with the lower end being a lot less smooth.

The Petrol Chip I bought seemed; at the time of removing the Slatted - Screen, redundant. However, after more tests, I came to realize that the AFR may well have been leaned - up, but I had not accounted for the possibility of an overall increase in airflow as a result of the removal of the restriction. That seems to make sense to me, but how could I reduce the airflow, whilst maintaining the AFR at the new figure - hypothesis at the moment as this will not be confirmed until the car is back on the dyno.

It seems the Petrol - Chip is a spin off from similar devices for Turbo Diesels and Turbo-ed Petrol vehicles. But it works on the premise that one has more to work with than is actually needed due to the forced induction.

This I believed to be true of my engine, curtesy of the camshafts, the headers and the exhaust system. But it seemed insufficient other than fine - trimming, meaning I was not seeing the kind of increased control I expected. However, it is a helpful tool.

However, after the removal of the Slatted - Screen, the airflow across the MAF sensor appears to have increased, sufficiently to substantially increased its output signal at tick - over as well as across the rpm range. This increase appears to be sufficient to create a greater range over which the Chip - Tune has control of the MAF Sensor Amplifier/Bridge.

It is going to be a few more weeks of trial and error before any real conclusions can be drawn and I can return for another Dyno run. However, in my conversation with Supersprint, they stated, a car fitted with their system should not be overly noisy. Until now, the level to me did not seem particularly noisy. However, the degree of adjustment the Petrol - Chip appears to have created, seems to have reduced the sound track even further. Perhaps nearer to what Supersprint were suggesting it ought to be !!!!

The way the Petrol - Chip works is, it alters the voltage across the Temperature sensitive Wheatstone Bridge, whilst at the same time maintaining the Operational Amplifiers "Null Point/Operating Threshold".

The voltage applied to the Wheatstone Bridge is a notional 5 volts, but should be more accurately described as a "Fuel Map Derived Voltage". So, it is not a fixed value of 5 volts. It is determined by the authors of the ECU software, when they are Mapping the ECU, chosen to produce a specific AFR across the entire range of the engine and is conditional upon the factors, sensors around the engine are indicating to the ECU.

Under ideal conditions, it is suggested by the manufacturers of the Petrol - Chip, it allows for fine tuning of the engine maps, without expensive and intrusive software editing of the ECU. It can be quickly removed and the original ECU program remains in tact. 

     
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: milospinkfloyd on November 28, 2022, 11:57:17 AM
@ascari32

You are running 291hp with CB cams + autodelta headers + ss exhaust and with remap or without remap?
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on December 15, 2022, 09:17:24 PM
Yes! My Dynamometer plot has been posted, registering 287 BHP, which is 291 PS, or DIN. Alfa quote 260 hp for the 3.2 JTS, which is actually 256 BHP. So either way it is 31 ps/bhp above standard.

Forty one above the Busso GTA.

But it is the improvement in the torque response that is most impressive, which I believe is being restricted at the top end due to air flow inertia created by the "Slatted Screen".

Now that it has been removed, once we get into the New Year and I get my final mods surrounding the NTC sensor in place, I will return to the Dyno Station for another run. I fully expect it to be over 300 PS as the removal of the slatted screen and trimming of the Petrol - Chip had made a tangible difference to performance since the last Dynamometer plot was done.

I have maintained my view, throughout this process - too much store is placed in Software, particularly the way it is employed with this "Jewel" of an engine - substantially for the sake of emissions.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on December 15, 2022, 09:24:11 PM
Quote from: milospinkfloyd on November 28, 2022, 11:57:17 AM
@ascari32

You are running 291hp with CB cams + autodelta headers + ss exhaust and with remap or without remap?

To reiterate - "NO REMAP, NO SOFTWARE MODIFICATIONS"

All down to mechanical realignment and performance hardware additions!!!!
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on December 15, 2022, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: milospinkfloyd on November 28, 2022, 11:57:17 AM
@ascari32

You are running 291hp with CB cams + autodelta headers + ss exhaust and with remap or without remap?

Great football team by the way,
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on December 16, 2022, 01:26:52 AM
Not wanting to claim any credit for the improvement to the 3.2JTS's performance as I have seen it all before, given I am 75. So, I have plenty of history on my side. With this in mind, it is now accurate to say, the improvements I have achieved are a function of that history. In essence, it is more accurate to say, Alfa Romeo squandered 31 PS for the sake of meeting EU emissions.

I have long held the view, that; specifically, one would never see the best from this wonderful car, unless it was a Q4: a system the Audi R8 uses, and the power output was in excess of 280 BHP. As a sports saloon, it is incomparable!
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on January 09, 2023, 04:24:31 PM
hard to imagine what the 159 / brera forum would be without you Ascari. Sounds like it's coming along nicely and quick at that! So, dare I mention a remap, but, were you to do that, you'd have to be getting close to the Auto Delta figures achieved through supercharging, one would think? They claim 350+.
If yours still has the OEM rev limiter set in 1st, you'd want to unleash that extra hp in the sprint now too. As I mentioned to you previously, it's the most enjoyable aspect of the remap. I'm yet to engage the rev limiter in 1st since, you don't need to go that far, but it's so nice when you change through into second. It's amazing how much more springy the car is in the lower rev range as a result.

As always, looking forward to more updates

Stu


Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on January 10, 2023, 12:20:45 AM
Hi Stu - Happy new year by the way.

Right now, I am awaiting some more bits for some other modifications, essentially revolving around the NTC Sensor. Whilst waiting, I have been doing a write - up, which I will post. I like to get things down in print, not least because it provides me with a record in case I find things don't work out the way they were intended.

I am still reluctant to have any software modifications done to my Q4 and whilst I can see lifting the limiter on first gear will help standard engines, I think that is because the JTS is largely gutless at low revs in standard guise. What it lacks is bottom end grunt - "Torque". Alfa acknowledge - nay, make great play about the JTS being lean burn up to 1500rpm. Thus to get it moving, without losing time between first and second, it does need to be revved!

However, with the increased torque at the bottom end, which my modifications have made, the Throttle Response is extremely sharp and it doesn't take long to get her moving quickly. Less pressure on gear changes too as the "Torque Overlap" from one gear to the next is just fabulous.

I still can't recommend the changes I have made, given the cost. But they do illustrate what could have been achieved if only more was understood about the engine and JTS technology at the time Alfa introduced the 159 and Brera. The cars would have been in production longer and I am not sure we would have seen the 2.9 Ferrari engine in the Giulia.

The remaining bits for my current modification should be here this week and I will post what I am doing with pictures of the mods as and when. 

Autodelta told me, 350 was the limit as they couldn't get more fuel into the engine. They were looking for ways to increase the delivery but there are no JTS pumps that can do it. I am not sure I agree with this and also take issue with retaining the standard camshafts, whilst going to supercharging. You  need to get the air in earlier than 11.5deg. ATDC.

However, get some decent valve timing, where the exhaust system is in depression and thus pulling air through the inlet tract, due to "Positive Valve Overlap", with the piston still at 0.5deg. BTDC and the exhaust valve still having another 23deg.ATDC to go before it closes and the engine suffers no inertial drag due to having to suck the air through the inlet tract. Then it is a different story.

If the camshafts are symmetrical, then not only are the inlets opening earlier, but so too they are closing later. With this reduction of inertial drag, and the air charging the cylinder longer, "Volumetric Efficiency", VE increases dramatically. Autodelta, in my opinion have trouble getting more fuel into the engine as although air is going in; in greater density, the engine management still hasn't sufficient time to get enough fuel in to correct the AFR, because of the restriction the valve timing creates.

Not being able to start injecting fuel until 11.5deg. into the induction stroke is a real handicap.

They have also retained the Slatted Screen inside the MAF housing which must be a great impediment to air flow, another reason the Standard JTS engine is gutless, because on pulling away, there is little "Ram Air Effect" into the inlet due to air pressure at the front of the car!

Stay safe,

Brian.   
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: milospinkfloyd on January 14, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
nice works you done. Few days ago I dynoed my brera Q4 (complete stock car) and results are 248hp and 335nm, but more importnant is 167hp on wheels so, Q4 eats 33% of power. Looking for ways to increase engine power

PS nice fotball team  ;D

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on January 14, 2023, 03:32:50 PM
Hi Milo,

Nice to see some one else has gone to the trouble of getting to know exactly how their engine is performing.

Oil pressure, mechanical and hence electronic accuracy between banks, and sufficient tension on the timing chain system is the key. to any real improvements. It can be done cheaply, fitted to the car in one day and not require the engine to be removed.

Above all, the chains need to be kept taught, an impossible feat with the most important element of the whole system; the lower primary timing chain tensioner. being at the remotest point from the oil pump.

The stainless steel line which goes across the bottom front of the engine feeds oil directly into the rear gallery, very near to where the lower timing chain tensioner is fitted.

Even with engines which are never going to sport performance cams or expensive exhaust systems benefit from this system, as the last plot attached illustrates.

The Brera is my mates 40.000 mile car, in mint condition. The 159 is mine with its original engine at 112,000 miles. However, only the 159 has the prototype C.L.L.S. fitted.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on January 14, 2023, 03:38:37 PM
Plot of Brera and 159.

These plots were taken after the prototype C.L.L.S. was fitted to my 159. The Brera is my mates, which was pristine at 40,000 miles and standard, whereas my 159 had 112,000 miles on the clock.

He was never going to buy the Brera as, although he loved the model from new, he couldn't justify it. After I took him for a jaunt in my 159 with the C.L.L.S. fitted, he sheepishly said during a telephone call, some weeks later, "Guess what! I went and bought a Brera. I never realised how good they could be until that ride in your 159".
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 02, 2023, 09:31:55 PM
it's funny you say that 159 is gutless down low Ascari. It's no sprinter, we all know that, but it has always felt more restrained to me, not lacking guts. More fighting to release them, then zapped by the 1st gear rev limiter the moment it finally starts to show promise. I've documented my minor engine mods + suspension and brakes and all in all, it's turned it into an excellent cruiser that you can absolutely throw around bends with minimal to no body roll and a much more desirable stance. The exhaust mods gave it an excellent note, that was further enhanced by the BMC air filter, which was then tweaked really nicely with the remap. In first it still feels somewhat restrained, but it gets up now and the change into second launches it forward at high revs with spring in it's step that it never had from new. There's no need to go to the stage where you engage the rev limiter. Having said that, I would like to see it raised in 2nd now as there is much more that could be had there.

The whole exercise has motivated me to step it up a little further now. I've just ordered in Wizard headers that will be added on the near future and I'll update this thread further then. It will add a new dimension to this editorial. As I understand this will bring more noticeable improvements to response etc, so I'm very much looking forward to it.

Stay tuned....

Cheers
Stu

Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 03, 2023, 10:14:42 PM
Removing the rev limit from first gear does not improve the torque, it simply enables one to get the engine speed up sufficient to support a gear change without the loss of momentum.

The reason for the lack of torque has always been an issue I have wrestled with. Although my suspicions were always drawn to to the matter of valve timing, it never crossed my mind that it the MAF could be connected with the issue. It was only after studying the last dyno plot and the quiet intimation by Clive Athhowe for me to "look at the torque curve", that it began to dawn on me where the problem lies.

Fact: - the inlet valve does not open until 11.5deg. ATDC., whilst the exhaust valve closes at 9deg. ATDC., creating  2.5deg. of NVO. So air flow through the inlet tract has been stymied - no flow for 2.5deg. Importantly, induction is now entirely down to the piston's ability to draw air into the cylinder. Essentially, the piston is "Dragging" air into the cylinder for the remaining induction stroke - 168.5deg. and little velocity is possible to generate much by way of volumetric efficiency (VE).

It is recommended that turbo - ed engines are fitted with a honeycomb to linearise the flow across the MAF element and eliminate surge due to air flow turbulence. This too is a function of the "Slatted Screen" within the 159/Bosch MAF., given that the 159 has a cold air intake from the front of the car which also forms a "Ram - Air Intake".

The screen is effective in compensating, to a degree, for the lack of air flow at Top Dead Centre as it creates linear air flow across the sensor face. Essentially, the "Slatted Screen"; at very low air  flow, causes very little restriction.

Moving away from "Idle" however, the combination a valve timing and the increasing restriction the "Slatted Screen" presents; as air flow velocity increases, results in "Choking"/Starving the engine of oxygen. This generates considerable inertia which is only overcome when the engine speed is sufficient to nullify it, i.e., ram air effect + VVT action is greater than "Slatted Screen Inertia".

Fortuitously, I chose to pause my investigations surrounding the MAF at a time when I felt real gains had been made and I needed to qualify "What those Gains Were". Hence my last visit to the Dynamometer Station, which drew Clive's observation.

After the Dyno run, I asked him why he had started the run at 2500rpm when hitherto it was started at circa 2000rpm. "I was getting funny/unstable readings", he said.

It is my contention, PVO generated by the C.B. cams, in conjunction with the free flowing nature of the exhaust system has exposed the true inertia the "Slated Screen" presents to air flow. In essence, the restriction it presents to air flowing through it, has induced the air to flow around it and avoid being metered by the Air Flow Sensor. Thus the AFR becomes extremely lean and as a consequence torque suffers and Clive was unable to get stable figures much below 3000rpm.

So far, I have only addressed the consequences of the "Slatted Screen" at the bottom end. Before modification, the mechanical limits were not being tested to the full, so air flow at the top end seemingly had a a minimal effect on torque.

However, after modification, the torque response appears to be limited/clamped. It is extremely rare to find a tuned device with a response anywhere near that flat. Closed loop systems are generally applied to systems to "Linearize" the response over their working range. But this is not such a system and there can be only one reason for the linearity; and that is something is causing a restriction. I.E. the level would be "X%" higher, were it not for some factor which is limiting it.

It is accepted in engineering circles that substantially, the torque curve mimic's that of the Air Flow Response. This being the case, just as the "Slatted Screen" is impacting upon the bottom end torque, so too it is limiting the ultimate torque response at high RPM.         
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 04, 2023, 11:42:46 AM
"Removing the rev limit from first gear does not improve the torque, it simply enables one to get the engine speed up sufficient to support a gear change without the loss of momentum." - I get that, which was part of my point, Brian. The slight increase in power from the remap + improved throttle response + high flow custom exhaust, has significantly changed the cars acceleration off the mark. "Add to that", I can stay in first for longer until change, improves that even more. I change from feel now, instead of attempting to anticipate the intro of the rev limiter. What's the point of a manual with a rev limiter anyway?

I don't think there has been anything on the Wizard headers on here yet as they have only been a fairly recent introduction for the 159. A much more cost effective purchase than the Auto Delta ones, which was part of my motivation. I'll go for ceramic coating and also look to some other minor mods at the same time they are installed. I'll ideally choose a couple of cost effective changes from your extensive research and experiences for further tweaking at that time.

It's never going to be the rocket ship your's will become, but I don't have the technical knowledge to go there, nor the desire to spend that sort of budget on a car that is currently worth about 15k AUD. I'm considering the Mace cams (yes I've read your editorial on Mace cams on the UK forum), then that will be it for me. I'll be happy with the final outcome at that point and as I've pointed out on here before, there's no use for high performance cars here anyway now as there is no where you can use the power. For me it's more about the subtle changes in feel, that come from the handling improvements thanks to the PU bushes and B16 shocks + the Ti seats so that I can stay in around corners + the better sound & improved drive experience in raising the rev limiter. The latter has always been the most annoying aspect of the car for me. I've never owned an automatic car for good reason. I've owned the car since new (almost...dealership demo 2008), so each minor adjustment is an enjoyable, anticipated change. From there it's fine tuning of things like door card replacement, that is already in work and wider rims. The car has never stopped attracting attention and comments and I think it's fair to say at this point, that's not going to change. Once you remove that awkward OEM stance by lowering, it changes the appearance from a nice looking family car to one of a sports saloon.

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 04, 2023, 10:14:00 PM
I get all that Stu and it sounds like the changes you have made so far are subtle, yet benefit the car overall. However, if the car had been that good from new, you wouldn't have touched much or been proposing to do more. Either way, your affection for the beast is obvious.

However, I wouldn't want to see you spend money in areas where you will get little tangible gains, when balanced against the cost of doing them. I started with the dubious advantage of having to rebuild the engine so what I proposed to do could be incorporated whilst the engine was out.

Headers, for instance are going to cause trouble for you, as one has to balance the improved air flow with the effect it is going to have on the NTC Sensor in the region of cylinder two exhaust port. It is critical insofar as keeping the man - cats at "Light - Off" and the way it responds to temperature change is pretty damned quick. A drop of a few degrees will cause the ECU to up the injection of fuel to ensure there is an over - rich mixture which burns in those cats which maintains their temperature.

With your Wizards fitted, that excess of fuel is going to appear at the secondary cats, and burn there instead, causing the racket I was faced with. There is no easy solution to the function the NTC sensor performs in conjunction with the ECU, which adds a secondary action of modifying the advance/retard timing.

Principally, this all comes about as a consequence of the headers; Autodelta or Wizard have in lowering engine temperature. And this is a function, which cannot be programmed out, well not according some authoritative sources I have spoken with on the subject. I am still pursuing this issue and nothing as yet is entirely satisfactory.

Of course, the racket may not be as severe as mine if you keep the standard camshafts, but it will non the less cause you problems. The improved performance of my car I just love, but there is no question, it is much cruder at urban speeds, where constant throttle adjustments invoke the "Dosing" of extra fuel to maintain light - off, despite the fact there are no man cats. On full chat, she is absolutely glorious, with a beautiful sounding exhaust wail, but if as you say, there is no opportunity for high speeds in Australia, you may end up being both bored and frustrated by the sound at low revs, when constantly on an off the throttle. You will certainly end up by changing the central Alfa cat for a sports cat, just to rid yourself of the awful, loud 2500rpm drone.

I am still working on modifications to, and around the NTC Sensor and fitting a second NTC Sensor into the thermostat housing is part of the plan. Indeed, my current thinking is to use some electronic control circuitry which takes both the standard NTC sensor and the Thermostat Housing and derives a signal/voltage to drive the ECU input. But a solution as yet is not altogether clear and I am working around very little concrete information from so - called expert sources. But one cannot get away from the fact that the NTC Sensor acts as both a choke for cold start enrichment, provides the correct amount of fuel for idling AND enriches the mixture when the manifold cats are dropping off light - off temperature.

I am sceptical about the claims of MACE. However, I have bought from them and their service has been very good and parts excellent quality. But their camshafts for the JTS and a standard PFI Holden - the same! Unless they provide more information, I cannot help but think their claims are fanciful. But if however, it is one direction you intend to go, it may be worth going their first, given the price. And keep the Headers in abeyance until more comfortable with any progress you make.

For me, the man - cats will never go back on - indeed I put them in the skip, rather than sell them on. But the reasons for doing all my modifications are fundamentally different from yours. Don't get me wrong, it is a fascinating engine and I continue to enjoy the issues it throws up. I lived my life with these kind off issues at work so they feed the engineering masochism that is part and parcel of a prototype engineers existence.

That I think, is not something you are looking to do.   
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 04, 2023, 11:21:45 PM
I had the central cats removed some time ago as one was gutted, so I eventually did away with both and replaced the whole system from there back with a high flow custom fit out. There is no noticeable drone, I'm not saying it's not there, but certainly not an issue. I think GTV6SA is running Autodelta headers with a back end supplied by the same place that installed mine + a remap. I don't recall him complaining about droning, but maybe he can correct me? I recall him commenting on one of your posts some time ago when you were trying to work things out. AutoModa, that work on my car in Sydney have fitted the Autodelta headers before to other cars. He has stated it's a big job!

I'll investigate Mace further before I go there. It's just an idea at this stage. If they'll back the fact that I'll get around x 30kw, I'll do it, with the other necessary mods to protect the engine. Seems odd they'd make the claim in writing in their advert were it not possible, but, I certainly don't have the expertise to judge them! A dyno would be the judge, which is part of the process they recommend

My sincere thanks again for all the advice. The parts I get, do help  8)

Stu




Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 05, 2023, 12:52:44 AM
The drone, in my case came a a consequence of C.B.'s and Autodeltas in conjunction with the Alfa Twin Cat and post resonator. With the Man - cats gone, the extra fuel was burning in the twin cat and that excited the filter/resonator/silencer after it.

This has been resolved since the system is now wholly Supersprint with 100 cpi sports cat. But, although it no longer resonates, one can detect - quite loudly at times - a "Gas Burner - type Roar", as the excess fuels burns in the sports cat. It certainly turns peoples heads.

However, if you remove both the man - cat and have no further cats in the system, the emissions will be horrendous , not to mention excess unburnt fuel building up in the exhaust system.

It is wholly down to the NTC Sensor to moderate the excess fuel injected, which in turn is down to the temperature it sees at/around cylinder 2 exhaust port. I estimate the combination of the Colombo Bariani's and the Autodelta header, in conjunction with the free flow characteristics of the Supersprint cat and exhaust system, the engine temperature has dropped by somewhere close to 25deg.C.

The reduction is clearly great enough to cause the ECU to inject dosing quantities of fuel into the cylinders, in an attempt to restore it to "Light - Off" temperature, for the sake of destroying pollutants in the man - cats, which of course are not there.

If as I have done, I modify the "Effective" value the NTC Sensor presents to the ECU in an attempt to fool it into believing it is already up to working temperature, it strangles the fuel supply so much that what is injected is so small that the JTS Fuel Rail, remains almost full and when the JTS Pump restores the fuel used, the quantity is so small the excess is forced back through the bleed back valve to the tank. This causes the valve to clatter very loudly on tick - over and it sounds very metallic and loud, to the extent that one thinks there is something seriously wrong.

Back off the "Fake Value" and the clatter disappears, but the dosing resumes. Somewhere between the two, the engine is very quiet and the exhaust tips start to colour brown/grey. The problem is, the "Fake Value" appears to be effective over a very limited range of ambient air temperature - i.e., depending upon whether it is a fine day or cold.

It is true however, the massive PVO the C.B.'s create in conjunction with the headers and exhaust of my car, produce a velocity of gas that the Alfa secondary cats and back boxes could not handle and taken in conjunction with the "Dosing" quantities of fuel, the power within the exhaust gas provokes the post twin - cat silencer to resonate violently and only starts to subside; as I now realise, because beyond 2500rpm, the engine management system is now transiting over to "Maps" which are concerned with making power and with that comes sufficient heat for the man - cats to remain heated without intervention by the NTC Sensor.       
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 05, 2023, 09:06:54 AM
AutoModa have already advised me that installing a sports cat to replace the twin cats was going to be necessary, with the headers, so I was ready for that. I don't want it louder than it is either, so that is another consideration in my planning. I'm not sure how to tag GTV6SA here, so if you know, pls do. His input would be timely for the reasons I outlined previously. I'll go back on another thread to see if I can get him on board
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 05, 2023, 03:53:29 PM
I pm - ed GTV6SA, so he may just pop up with his take on the issue.

The car will definitely be louder, particularly if the NTC Sensor raises its ugly head. Light throttle cruising is not the issue, it's when it is put under load.

It may be I am seeing the worst case scenario because of the massive Valve Overlap the C.B.'s introduce - intake air is already moving quickly across the piston crown at TDC, which cools the heads and the NTC Sensor. Plus the cylinder fill is from TDC to BDC + later closing, greatly increasing VE. So there is a lot of energy to get rid of after the power stroke.

To what extent this affects the sound level/gas burner-type roar the dosing creates with standard cams shafts, only testing can determine that.

But I wouldn't swap my CB's for all the "Tea in China", despite the NTC issue as both the sound on full chat and the way the engine pulls as the revs climb is mind blowing for such a heavy car.

A friend in the "States" posed the issue of duration and lift on one of the performance sites he contributes to which generated quite a debate about potential valve/piston interference.

One character contributed, saying; "One thing is certain, these ain't no Granny-cams, the angles and duration are very close to my Ferrari Racer"

I don't think anything other than the 2.9 Giulia can live with it above 4500rpm and the "G" one experiences on even modest bends in 3rd gear at those revs is startling. Which makes me absolutely marvel at the 159 chassis - it is colossal in every respect; taught and very predictable. Point the car at where you want her to go and she just tracks sublimely. It is such a great platform, it could handle the 2.9 engine under the bonnet.

Better than the GTV, the 156GTA and the Brera, in my opinion.

Even AutoItalia, in their latest magazine commented, belatedly about the 2.4 159SW, stating she is a fine handling car which takes roundabouts at startling speeds. Not before time, the platform is starting to get attention. Reputedly, it cost more to develop, than some motor companies were worth. Certainly, Fiat settled the divorce alimony question by accepting £2billion  + the chassis/platform from GM.
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 05, 2023, 06:17:24 PM
another question Brian, assuming the Mace cams do deliver the x 30kw (approx) extra power, would I lose performance down low? They state "These cams provide power gains of approximately 30rwkw between 1500 and 6000rpm".

The other thing to take into account with the Mace claim is, when you consider the potential sales capacity of the cams they're selling Vs the amount of 159 V6's that actually exist, it wouldn't make commercial sense to make the statement anyway. They stand a lot more to lose than to gain.

Also in relation to some of your editorial I've read about your concerns about valve springs, they also state "If you intend on revving your vehicle beyond the factory rev-limiter or adding a little boost, then we'd at least recommend our high-performance valve-spring kit and aftermarket timing chain set."

As always, interested in your thoughts here, most notable on the power delivery

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 05, 2023, 06:47:38 PM
got a DM from GTV6SA, Brian. He said he had to go back a couple of times to the local custom exhaust fitter, before he was happy with the volume, but is now content, so all good there. He said initially the increased flow created too much extra noise so he went back for further adjustments

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 06, 2023, 02:28:29 AM
Quote from: Stu159 on February 05, 2023, 06:17:24 PM
another question Brian, assuming the Mace cams do deliver the x 30kw (approx) extra power, would I lose performance down low? They state "These cams provide power gains of approximately 30rwkw between 1500 and 6000rpm".

The other thing to take into account with the Mace claim is, when you consider the potential sales capacity of the cams they're selling Vs the amount of 159 V6's that actually exist, it wouldn't make commercial sense to make the statement anyway. They stand a lot more to lose than to gain.

Also in relation to some of your editorial I've read about your concerns about valve springs, they also state "If you intend on revving your vehicle beyond the factory rev-limiter or adding a little boost, then we'd at least recommend our high-performance valve-spring kit and aftermarket timing chain set."

As always, interested in your thoughts here, most notable on the power delivery

Cheers
Stu

Stu,
I am not going to subscribe to what any company claims without more tangible evidence to the effect that it is true. They do not give enough detail to make a judgement. On the basis of what they do say, I do not believe what they say.

The caveat to what they state is other changes needing to be made - so given so many go on about software modifications, are they making claims for cams when in conjunction they are fitted along with software modifications? The only way to properly test any improvements is by testing each change in isolation. So to me, they are being disingenuous. And how exactly is any of what they say relevant to a 3.2 JTS which is not boosted? There is no turbo!!!!

As far as cams are concerned, I have said before, their cams do not provide extra lift, therefore no extra air can get in. Their duration is even less than Alfas, so again, even less time for air to get it. However, with regard to valve springs, a more peaky cam - which theirs have given their shorter duration - and you are more likely to get valve bounce even if you don't over rev the engine. Even if stronger springs are not fitted, because of the profile, they will be more likely to clatter than Alfa's.

On the basis of a straight swap - out, nothing else changed, I personally believe the 3.2 JTS engine will be less powerful with MACE cams, than with Alfa's - based on the information they have given.

You pay your money and make your choice. C.B. are expensive for good reason. Bottom end torque Will Not improve unless lean burn at low rpm can be eliminated and scavenging improves dramatically. That can only come with increased duration; assuming lobe centres stay the same, and ridding the engine of "Negative Valve Overlap".



The are not giving us, me in particular; given I have asked them, relevant information to make an informed judgement. So I would not recommend fitting them on the premise of what performance gains will be made. As a cheap experiment, with everything else untouched, yes and I have said I would be willing to test them on my car, giving them sight of the results first and not disclose details to anyone. But that is not something they appear willing to do.

Although they are expensive, the simple fact is, only Colombo Bariani have proved their worth. They do not concede any failure in increasing power as the cams are designed around improved torque. No one wants to be permanently revving the nuts off an engine just to demonstrate "X" power gains. As Carrol Shelby said, "It is Torque that wins races".

Personally, I think the biggest single improvement comes from fitting Colombo Bariani Camshafts and their gross cost will seem cheap compared to the accrued cost of changing so many other things, with little by way of tangible improvement. One can gas - flow an exhaust system, but it doesn't make a jot of difference, if the cams won't let the engine breath properly.

     
Title: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 06, 2023, 08:42:50 AM
not trying to have the last say or anything or prod you in anyway, but my marketing brain (as adapt as your engineering one 8) ) suggests that Mace shooting their mouth off in writing about the potential gains, for as noted, minimal returns, when.........as noted, they have a solid reputation, makes little sense. I'm sure they know the engines well.....also

My headers installation will be months away yet, owing to work commitments and they've only just been ordered. Additionally I have other significant spends that will take priority, that include a 2nd car, to take the load off my 159 and keep my k's down to preserve it.

Suffice to say that out of interest I'll get it dyno'ed once the headers are done to see where it's at. So considering I'll already have the add ons that Mace suggest would be necessary to achieve the performance gains, fitted, if after discussion with them pre-purchase and further consultation with others, I decide to go ahead, then we'll all know!

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Ascari32 on February 06, 2023, 05:49:40 PM
With all due respect, we won't all know, at all! Not least because you appear to be willing to conflate issues by changing a whole load of things, without recording what has been gained; or lost, in making individual changes.

I am not saying MACE are shooting their mouths off, just what they say is ambiguous, given the 3.2 JTS is only one variant of many in the Holden Catalogue, all of which; to a substantial degree, share many parts. But JTS technology is very different from PFI technology and High Volumetric Efficiency is relatively easy with Turbo charged cars. And it is disingenuous to introduce that aspect into advertising touting virtues of gains to be had with vehicles which are Naturally Aspirated. 

I asked for details about MACE cams and they were unwilling to give any actual figures for them as fitted to the 3.2 JTS.

However, they say the lift remains the same as Alfa's, but duration is only 210deg. So whilst every other cam producer either goes for increased lift or duration, or a combination of both, MACE seem to run counter to even Alfa!!!!

You appear to be unwilling to accept that to achieve more torque, one has to get more energy into the cylinders. And to do that the relevant components must be present, fuel and air. And if you want greater gains, you need more of both. If the engine is naturally aspirated, then better breathing is essential and that equates to allowing more air into the cylinders.

Now. given the same lift, the length of time the inlet valve is open is a crucial factor and a valve that is open for 254deg. (Alfa) is better than one which only opens for 210deg.(MACE) And one that is open for 278deg.(C.B.) is better than one that is open for 254deg.

Somehow, you seem to be intent in adding headers and exhaust systems into the debate, without making the distinction about what their role is in all of this. Removing the Manifold Cats and fitting a good free flow exhaust system is not actually increasing the power of the engine. It is simply reducing the losses that suppress it's true power.

To get more power, you need more energy in. However Alfa's criteria was low emissions and as a consequence camshafts and timing that assist in achieving that goal were fitted.  However, they certainly can't be called performance cams in a conventional sense.

And, on the basis of what information MACE have given, their figures indicate they will perform less well than Alfa's.

That I am afraid is as much as I have to say on this subject. I am not going to be revisiting old ground given the work I have already done. My priorities are in solving the issues surrounding my NTC Sensor. Good luck with your project. I have posted sufficient on both this forum and the UK forum for people to make use of, or otherwise.     
Title: Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
Post by: Stu159 on February 06, 2023, 07:39:06 PM
I'm more than happy to let it go. All I've been saying is I'd like to look into it further, before I make the decision. For the record, I've never stated, or thought, that exhaust mods were going to increase power. I completely understand they simply make more available and those are the results I've enjoyed so far. Hence me wanting to go further.....

I appreciate all of the info and love the sound or your build. I'm just not one to write things off without further research, in this case, for some of the reasons I've outlined. Automoda also know these engines inside out, so when I'm next there, I'll discuss this with them too. Then, if it's cost effective and Mace will back their claim, I'll give it a go, as I've stated. Nothing to lose. I can always put the originals back in as I would keep them either way, for a future owner to maintain the originality of the car

If I was going to go to the expense of the CB cams, I'd prefer to find another few grand and just supercharge it. Can't see me doing either though. I'd prefer a trip to Europe for a couple of weeks.....

All the best
Stu