Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

State Divisions => Victoria => Topic started by: MMXX on May 31, 2021, 10:34:05 PM

Title: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on May 31, 2021, 10:34:05 PM
Hi everyone,

I've just recently purchase an Alfa Romeo 2000GTV from NSW and had it shipped to me here in Melbourne. I've been trying to register the car, but VicRoads say that they cannot find any history of registration (it was on historic registration in Sydney and that apparently doesn't mean anything to VicRoads). The car had no history when I bought it as apparently it was stored away for many years.

My issue is this:

1. The chassis number stamped on the firewall is AR2412442 but on the compliance plate it is AR24212443. Either someone has made an innocent mistake, or there has been some confusion somewhere.  Engine # is AR00512.69427
2. Is there anywhere that I could get this information to verify that the chassis # actually matches the car, and the compliance plate was a simple mistake.

Here's a photo of the car for reference:

(https://www.misura.com.au/upload/modules/file_storage/IMG_9844.JPG)

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: giulia_veloce on June 02, 2021, 05:33:19 AM
My records show

AR 2412443 was destroyed in 1980,,,shell only
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 02, 2021, 09:03:00 AM
Do you have anything that comes up with AR2412442 which is the actual number stamped on the firewall?
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Craig_m67 on June 02, 2021, 09:20:54 AM
Vin numbers (chassis) are held by a federal (commonwealth?) agency. 

When I imported Sooty, I had to contact them and get the VIN loaded onto the system so that every state/territory could then see/register it.. without this, the car simply didn’t exist (irrespective of it sitting outside their office). From memory, I had to get permission from DoTARs to do this before it was even shipped.

Although I’m not sure how far back their records go, perhaps you could contact NEVDIS and ask them about your (2) Chassis/VIN numbers.

Hopefully the original chassis hasn’t been “written off” and removed.  Although the rules change by state, it’s nearly impossible to re register a vehicle that’s been “written off”

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/imports/vins.aspx
(Edit) reading the blurb, they only keep info from 1989
I would simply contact (call) NSW reg and ask them for some help.. (what did they say?)


Depending on the age, it may also not require a compliance plate. 
My ‘66 Duetto for instance never had one.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Gary Pearce on June 02, 2021, 09:24:10 PM
It is my understanding, that in Victoria you require proof of ownership.....and some indication that the car has been in Australia previously. (ie not just imported) and a Roadworthy Certificate. You will have to declare a purchase price also. Your records of other car/s in your name registered in Victoria is also helps.
The confusion with the chassis number doesn't usually bother Vic Roads as if they have doubts they will ask to inspect the car and provide you with a new Chassis number to be used from now onwards. Head office in Carlton might get you better results, and if a clerk is finding your case a little complicated, ask to speak to their superior.
Now......if you don't need to drive it everyday you could 'Club register' your car (see Club instructions on this site) you still need a RWC but if you are a Club member and the Club signs you off, you only need to visit Vic Roads to pick up the red Club plates.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 03, 2021, 09:10:55 AM
Thanks for the reply guys. The issue that VicRoads has is that they can't find any record of the car being previously registered in Australia, and as such they have referred the matter to the police as the car is now deemed 'suspicious' and they want to forensically examine it. Personally I think it's overkill as it's clear to see what the chassis number is on the firewall and it hasn't been etched or removed.

I'm trying to track down information to get some history of the car as I don't want the police to take it as they said it can take up to 3 months. 
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: bazzbazz on June 03, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
The issue that VicRoads has is that they can't find any record of the car being previously registered in Australia, and as such they have referred the matter to the police as the car is now deemed 'suspicious' and they want to forensically examine it.

Yes, it's all the rage with crime gangs these days, re-birthing little 4 cylinder cars from the 60s & 70s . . . . . .  ::)
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Colin Edwards on June 03, 2021, 11:27:33 AM
Good advice Gary!

MMXX,
If you do consider a 45 day or 90 VicRoads Club Permit Scheme rego, it may be worthwhile talking to the Club CPS officer Ivan Ciardullo for further advice.
cps@alfaclubvic.org.au

Colin
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Craig_m67 on June 03, 2021, 01:14:28 PM
What history, providence do you have with the car?

Do you know the previous historic reg number.. I just punched a couple of NSW historic plated red GTV’s I google image searched into the NSW rego website and it told me everything (three of them have sequential plates interestingly enough), none of them had your VIN

You could also flick an email to Alfa Museo with the chassis VIN, they sell birth certificates now which include the dealer, date and country where the vehicle was first exported to/sold by Alfa.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Anth73 on June 03, 2021, 05:03:01 PM
When I bought a 1974 2000GTV form an elderley owner in Adelaide it had not been registerd for over 10 years and hence there was no evidence of it ever being registered in their systems even though I had the original SA numberplate still on the car.

Like someone else suggested, get the previous owner to provide the NSW club rego it was on, that should help. Otherwise pay the 80 euro for each chassis number to find out what the Alfa archives can tell you just fo ryour own piece of mind.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: alfagtv85 on June 04, 2021, 10:20:57 AM
VicRoads will need to ascertain where the vehicle came from before registering the vehicle, even though it has been registered as a Historic vehicle in NSW.

What you need to do is seek out the previous owner to determine whether they have information from where the vehicle came from, if it is an imported vehicle, what import papers they have, if these can be produced then you can show these to VicRoads who should accept both the Historic registration and the import documentation.

Many vehicles are direct imports and if you have the required custom and import documentation can be process within Australia.

Compliance plates on vehicles are only applicable to vehicle after 1989 production year, as this vehicle would be before this date there would be no compliance other than the manufacture plate.

There have been several occasions where the manufacture plate on older vehicles and the chassis number may be mismatched, but this is rare.

As mentioned by Giulia veloce  AR 2412443 was destroyed in 1980,,,shell only, it would look as if the vehicle has been rebuilt with a replacement shell. The manufacture plate would possibly have been removed during restoration and possibly mislaid and another substituted.

What you need to look at is whether the chassis and engine number have been altered from the original stamping as this is what the forensic check will entail, if they have been altered then you have a problem, and the car can be seized by the police until ownership is determined.
 
VicRoads would have undertaken a search of both their records, interstate checks and the stolen vehicle records to determine whether one or both identification numbers are listed on there databases. As it is not then automatically the vehicle would be referred to VicPol.

The above information is from someone who worked at VicRoads a number of years ago and things may have changed slightly.[/i]
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 04, 2021, 11:27:41 AM
VicRoads will need to ascertain where the vehicle came from before registering the vehicle, even though it has been registered as a Historic vehicle in NSW.

What you need to do is seek out the previous owner to determine whether they have information from where the vehicle came from, if it is an imported vehicle, what import papers they have, if these can be produced then you can show these to VicRoads who should accept both the Historic registration and the import documentation.

Many vehicles are direct imports and if you have the required custom and import documentation can be process within Australia.

Compliance plates on vehicles are only applicable to vehicle after 1989 production year, as this vehicle would be before this date there would be no compliance other than the manufacture plate.

There have been several occasions where the manufacture plate on older vehicles and the chassis number may be mismatched, but this is rare.

As mentioned by Giulia veloce  AR 2412443 was destroyed in 1980,,,shell only, it would look as if the vehicle has been rebuilt with a replacement shell. The manufacture plate would possibly have been removed during restoration and possibly mislaid and another substituted.

What you need to look at is whether the chassis and engine number have been altered from the original stamping as this is what the forensic check will entail, if they have been altered then you have a problem, and the car can be seized by the police until ownership is determined.
 
VicRoads would have undertaken a search of both their records, interstate checks and the stolen vehicle records to determine whether one or both identification numbers are listed on there databases. As it is not then automatically the vehicle would be referred to VicPol.

The above information is from someone who worked at VicRoads a number of years ago and things may have changed slightly.[/i]

The car has a compliance plated fitted but with the mismatched VIN by one digit. It doesn't appear that the original chassis number has been altered nor the engine number; they both appear to be consistent with what they look like on other vehicles.

The previous owner purchased the car from an owner in Melbourne (whom he is in contact with) but doesn't have any history of the vehicle. I know the previous owner well and has owned the car since 2003 and it has been on NSW club plates since then.

Apparently the car is an Australian delivered vehicle, but it has no history and the VIN is off by one digit.

I can give the car to VicPolice and I'm confident that nothing has been altered, but time will tell.

Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 04, 2021, 11:28:09 AM
The issue that VicRoads has is that they can't find any record of the car being previously registered in Australia, and as such they have referred the matter to the police as the car is now deemed 'suspicious' and they want to forensically examine it.

Yes, it's all the rage with crime gangs these days, re-birthing little 4 cylinder cars from the 60s & 70s . . . . . .  ::)

Yeah exactly :)
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 04, 2021, 11:32:04 AM
Good advice Gary!

MMXX,
If you do consider a 45 day or 90 VicRoads Club Permit Scheme rego, it may be worthwhile talking to the Club CPS officer Ivan Ciardullo for further advice.
cps@alfaclubvic.org.au

Colin


Thinking about this. My only concern is, if VicRoads have this car on this system now as 'suspicious', will they knock back club rego?


[/quote]
What history, providence do you have with the car?

Do you know the previous historic reg number.. I just punched a couple of NSW historic plated red GTV’s I google image searched into the NSW rego website and it told me everything (three of them have sequential plates interestingly enough), none of them had your VIN

You could also flick an email to Alfa Museo with the chassis VIN, they sell birth certificates now which include the dealer, date and country where the vehicle was first exported to/sold by Alfa.

Hey Craig, previous NSW rego was 11937-J. Punching that into service NSW it matches the VIN on the chassis. I've tried reaching out to Alfa Museo but haven't heard anything back as of yet.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: vin sharp on June 04, 2021, 06:30:18 PM
Two years ago I had a car registered on club rego.  I had no record of any previous Australian registration, just the receipt of sale from the person I bought it from.
I simply followed the 'new permit application' procedure & obtained a roadworthy & filled out the forms, went to the VicRoads office (without having to take the car) & paid the fee. Got back in return the club rego permit & nice new plates. Took them home & screwed 'em on.
 End of story. Couldn't have been simpler.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 16, 2021, 07:16:42 PM
**UPDATE**

So I contacted the AOMC and they found records of my chassis number and engine number being previously registered in Victoria back in the 70s and 80s. I also contacted the Alfa Romeo museum in Italy that have original records of the car being imported into Australia in 1973.

The main issue is the compliance plate has the chassis number off by one digit which is why VicRoads deem it 'suspicious', even though it's only ever been registered in Victoria with the chassis number on the firewall.

Since they've referred it to the police, trying to get them to understand this is proving difficult.

My understanding is Alfa Romeo Australia back in the day put the wrong compliance plate on the wrong car.

I'm hoping this comes to an end soon..

Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Beatle on June 18, 2021, 07:07:41 PM
sounds as though it would be easier to 'lose' the compliance plate.....   It's the only part that doesn't match the records and the body and engine numbers. ;)
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: bazzbazz on June 18, 2021, 11:24:06 PM
In the RAAF we call that "Lateral thinking".  ;)
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 22, 2021, 12:26:15 PM
Another update:

Because VicRoads referred the matter to police and deemed it a suspicious vehicle, Victoria police, despite me forwarding through documents proving that my engine number and chassis number match from the records I provided, still want to take the car to their forensic team which can take up to 4-6months to verify the identity of the car.

The detective that I have been speaking to says that my engine number has been registered in 2014 to a 1973 Red Alfa Romeo 2000GTV but with a completely different chassis number than mine.

My fear is now if I try to register this car on club plates, VicRoads have record of it being 'suspicious' so they won't allow it to be registered.

I feel a bit defeated after all of this and thinking that the car may be gone for 4-6months, I'd rather just sell it.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Beatle on June 22, 2021, 06:49:20 PM
Hmmmmm,

I know it sounds quite deflating, but 6 months isn't that long, particularly if you were considering putting it on club plates.  You wouldn't drive much in that 6 months anyway.

I expect the cops won't tell you, but it would be interesting to get the chassis # they say has that engine # linked to it to see if the chassis # even follows an Alfa format.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: giulia_veloce on June 23, 2021, 06:29:10 AM
Would Not be happy if a new Police Chassis number had to be stamped on the car.
Or a police engine number on the engine block.
I have a 2 litre engine here with a police engine number.
Takes away the Authenticity of the car,,in my opinion.
I have seen both many times over the years.
I know of a 105 2 litre with 1912 stamped on the Compliance plate.
On this plate,,chassis number is the same as the firewall,but with 1912 year model.

As mentioned before by me,,by my data base,,this car was written off= destroyed.
If its a good to excellent car,I would like it as original as possible.
If its an average or below average car,,just get it on the road and enjoy it.
All depends how much you paid for it.

Why is it so easy to put a car on Club plates,but hard to put back on full rego.
I know many cars on club plates that will find it Very hard to go back to full legal rego here in NSW.

If this car can not be put on Full Rego,,i will Give you $5000 for the shell and turn it into a SC or NC race car cause that all it is worth to me.
Just an Opinion.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 23, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Hmmmmm,

I know it sounds quite deflating, but 6 months isn't that long, particularly if you were considering putting it on club plates.  You wouldn't drive much in that 6 months anyway.

I expect the cops won't tell you, but it would be interesting to get the chassis # they say has that engine # linked to it to see if the chassis # even follows an Alfa format.

I asked them but yeah as per privacy, they won't tell me the chassis number.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 23, 2021, 02:32:05 PM
Would Not be happy if a new Police Chassis number had to be stamped on the car.
Or a police engine number on the engine block.
I have a 2 litre engine here with a police engine number.
Takes away the Authenticity of the car,,in my opinion.
I have seen both many times over the years.
I know of a 105 2 litre with 1912 stamped on the Compliance plate.
On this plate,,chassis number is the same as the firewall,but with 1912 year model.

As mentioned before by me,,by my data base,,this car was written off= destroyed.
If its a good to excellent car,I would like it as original as possible.
If its an average or below average car,,just get it on the road and enjoy it.
All depends how much you paid for it.

Why is it so easy to put a car on Club plates,but hard to put back on full rego.
I know many cars on club plates that will find it Very hard to go back to full legal rego here in NSW.

If this car can not be put on Full Rego,,i will Give you $5000 for the shell and turn it into a SC or NC race car cause that all it is worth to me.
Just an Opinion.

What's the story with police number on your engine? They couldn't find it? The chassis number on my compliance plate is the one that was destroyed. The chassis number on the actual car was registered in Victoria in the 70s and the Alfa Romeo museum in Italy found the original records and my chassis number and engine number match.

Have you any records of engine# AR0051269427?
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: JohnLW on June 24, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
You may want to pay the 70 Euro to get the Certificate of Origin from Alfa Romeo Historico, it will tell you the origin of the body Serial # you have and also if the engine and body number match that which originally came off the line, plus the delivery location (city, state and country, if not the actually dealer name).  At least then youll know if it was original Australian delivery and if the engine has been changed.  may help you complete the puzzle?
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on June 24, 2021, 01:22:39 PM
You may want to pay the 70 Euro to get the Certificate of Origin from Alfa Romeo Historico, it will tell you the origin of the body Serial # you have and also if the engine and body number match that which originally came off the line, plus the delivery location (city, state and country, if not the actually dealer name).  At least then youll know if it was original Australian delivery and if the engine has been changed.  may help you complete the puzzle?

And I did exactly that and everything matches apart from the paint colour. My car is red but it was originally white as it left the factory. The chassis number and engine number on my car match according to their records and it was delivered in 1973 to a dealer in Sydney.
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Beatle on June 25, 2021, 08:04:18 PM
That data should help immensely (and you are lucky to still have the original engine fitted  :D).
VicPol should be able to chase up the original rego record from NSW (if that's where it was first registered).
Good luck!
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Cobrasteve on August 07, 2021, 10:05:59 AM
This has been an interesting read - any update on progress?

Getting the Alfa museum production data is a must but it reads like knowing the correct VIN on this car is the key point.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on August 13, 2021, 05:47:04 PM
So I do have an update for everyone. What I decided to do in the end was this: I sent the car back to NSW to get it registered there as I am still a resident of NSW.  I made this decision on my gut feeling that after sourcing the documents that proved the chassis number and engine number in my car matched and were original, giving the car to the police to take it away for forensic analysis for up to 6 months just didn't sit well, primarily because they couldn't guarantee how the car would be treated (nor would they really care) and they would not take into consideration the documents that I had provided as well.

So I then sent the car back to the mechanic from whom I bought it from as he assisted me with this whole process. To get it registered, he referred the car to Transport NSW and a vehicle identity specialist phoned me up a few days later and asked me about the car and I explained to him the issue with the compliance plate having the last digit different to the chassis firewall. He asked me to send him all the documentation that I had about the car which I did.

A few days later, he phoned me up saying he saw no issue and suggested that the compliance plate not be removed as it would detract from the originality of the car. His view was that someone likely made a mistake back in 1973 when putting the compliance plate on the car.

The whole registration process took about 5 days.

Before going down this path, I checked with the detective in Victoria that I was liaising with about my plan and that if the car is passed in NSW, what does that mean when I want to register the car in Victoria. His answer: 'Check with VicRoads, I don't know'. I called VicRoads and the person told me 'If it's a police matter, we can't do much'. I pressed him for an answer about the car being on full registration in NSW and then transferring it over to Victoria if it could be registered given that it was flagged on the VicRoads system, and he said 'If it's registered interstate, that's good enough for us'.

So after months and months of bureaucratic paperwork, research, phone calls and frustration, I finally have a fully registered Alfa Romeo 2000GTV  :D.

(https://www.misura.com.au/upload/modules/file_storage/Alfa%20GTV%202000.jpg)

Looking forward to bringing her out to a meet!

Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Craig_m67 on August 13, 2021, 06:54:11 PM
Hesús, what a massive palavasaga - well done for not killing somebody :)

If ever there was an example why some things in Aust. should just be a Commonwealth/Federal responsibility instead of multiple state entities with different rules/laws (cares), it’s this.


I’d be looking forward to my first beer
(It’s already open though)

Congrats
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Ascari32 on August 14, 2021, 01:36:53 AM
I admire your perseverance and the beautiful motor involved - Well done! Your "Glow" must be the same colour as the car!
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: kaleuclint on August 14, 2021, 10:28:28 AM
What???   Does this mean the saga is over???  Was looking forward to the next series...

As so often, it just takes one sensible intervention and through path of least resistance the rest just falls into line.  Well done!
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Craig_m67 on August 14, 2021, 11:06:32 AM
What???   Does this mean the saga is over???  Was looking forward to the next series...

As so often, it just takes one sensible intervention and through path of least resistance the rest just falls into line.  Well done!

It’s an unfeasonabily shiny red 105, the saga has only just begun (I hope not though)

….. because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our 105 Alfa’s, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones… rusty. :)






Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: MMXX on August 14, 2021, 05:24:21 PM
Hesús, what a massive palavasaga - well done for not killing somebody :)

If ever there was an example why some things in Aust. should just be a Commonwealth/Federal responsibility instead of multiple state entities with different rules/laws (cares), it’s this.


I’d be looking forward to my first beer
(It’s already open though)

Congrats

Thank you. It was worth it in the end, because it is such a beautiful machine :)
I admire your perseverance and the beautiful motor involved - Well done! Your "Glow" must be the same colour as the car!

I fell in love with the car as soon as I bought it, so I am chuffed to bits that I finally have this all sorted now. :)

What???   Does this mean the saga is over???  Was looking forward to the next series...

As so often, it just takes one sensible intervention and through path of least resistance the rest just falls into line.  Well done!

Only took about four months in the end, and a few more grey hairs. Thank you!

What???   Does this mean the saga is over???  Was looking forward to the next series...

As so often, it just takes one sensible intervention and through path of least resistance the rest just falls into line.  Well done!

It’s an unfeasonabily shiny red 105, the saga has only just begun (I hope not though)

….. because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our 105 Alfa’s, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones… rusty. :)

Believe you me, I've had it checked and a body shop go over it with a fine tooth comb as soon as I got it, and so far so good. I never thought getting the thing registered was going to the most difficult part of ownership of this car..
Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Beatle on August 18, 2021, 04:58:54 PM
Congratulations, and what sweet looking ride it is.  Though a few more pics wouldn't go unappreciated  ;)

CRAIG:  If the Feds had control the car and owner may have simply disappeared in the dead of night with evidence of their histories erased forever!
 One advantage of the federation is that if it doesn't work in one State you can try elsewhere........  :-)

Title: Re: Trying to register a 2000GTV
Post by: Alfonso on September 04, 2021, 03:16:33 PM
Congrats on finally getting it registered.  I think the solution you used was excellent.

I purchased a 105 GTV some years back and after sometime noticed that the chassis number on the WA rego document didnt match what was on the car - it was out by 1 digit.  Someone had mistaken an 'S' for a '5' (or something like that) back when it was registered in QLD.  I then moved to Victoria and when I phoned Vic roads to get the car registered I told them the story they advised to take it to Lygon street and get it inspected.  They then entered the corrected the Chassis number in their system and I got the car registered in VIC. When I moved back to WA some years later I re-registered the car using the correct Chassis number - so all good in the end. 

All it takes is for a public servant to make one typo to cause a world of bother and inconvenience.

My guess is that these sorts of stories are are not uncommon.