Now I know this is probably one of the oldest and most talked about topics but ...
I had an oil leak at the rear of the engine and was planning on an engine bay cleanup so decided to pull the engine out and do the common seals / gaskets whilst doing the engine bay work.
Replaced the sum gasket, rear main seal and the gasket for the oil galley cover plate.
Engine back in and ran up to temp ... everything seems ok.
Not only do I still have an oil leak (granted it isnt anywhere near as bad) but the leak is constant. The engine hasnt run now for a couple of weeks and still the oil drips.
I can wipe away the drips and then the next day, more drips.
What area at the back has oil sitting right next to a gasket or seal when the car is stationery?
All of the oil shouldve by now drained back into the sump.
The drips appear on the rear sump bolts.
I have re-tightened those, although they werent loose.
But where is this oil coming from??
I can understand if it were the rear main or the sump, when the engine is running ... but this just keeps on dripping.
Its definitely coming from inside the bell housing so isnt cam cover or anything above ...
Suggestions?
Did you replaces the wicks between the rear main cap and block?
I didnt but there isnt any oil sitting against those when the car is stationary so it shouldnt be leaking from there when the car is sitting.
Running, sure ... but not stationary.
I am with Rowan, also known as cigarette seal. Also I have a post from Alfa Romeo BB on this issue.
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-repair-diagnostics-rebuilding/649754-cigarette-seal-variations-2.html
Yeah, I am very familiar with these seals but my point is ... the engine is constantly leaking oil whilst NOT running.
There is no oil actively near those cigarette seals when the engine is off so there is no way the leak could be coming from there.
My suspicion is that the car isnt sitting level at the moment because its on stands and the front is higher than normal.
So it stands to reason that the oil is actually resting up against the rear portion of the gasket and seeping through.
To prove your theory and the sump bolts have been torqued correctly, I would try and nip up all bolts another 1/2 to 1 turn and see if it fixes the leak. If not, you may need to investigate further such as possible cracks, with focus around leak area.
Sorry mine did the same ,the guy cut the cigarette seals too short !
talk to Rob at brookvale
bit of a guru with this
I went through half a litre a week just standing
I think the oil drips down from the head when stationary
Oil can leak from the 2 middle rear sump bolts
Remove bolts,,clean bolts and holes with brake cleaner,,and use ultra grey on threads and washer and install.
Also on Alfetta engines,,there is an Oil bolt on the rear of the engine that can come loose and leak.
Those 2 rear head Allen key nuts leak,,especially exhaust side,so make sure they are tight.
Cigarette seals are a common leak area (ask Carlo).
I Modify them and use the Alfa Special tool to insert them .
The rear main seal is Not normally the problem,,its the cigarette seals.,,2 rear centre sump bolts,rear head allen nuts etc.'
NSharpley....clean the area with brake cleaner,,compressed air to dry it,,and have another look.
I reckon you're on it with those rear sump bolts.
Mine only had oil on the one sump bolt so I just gave it a 1/2 turn, clean up any oil and left it overnight.
No sign of further leaks.
Will leave it for another 24 hours and check again.
Thanks for the tip.
Well ... in the interests of closure ... I did the cigarette seals.
Ran it up to temp ... no leaks.
Haven't used the supplied cigarette seals for years... Chucked them in the bin! Eventually they go hard, shrink and leak.
Permatex Grey is your friend here. There is a reason that later V6 engines went this way.
You can build an almost oil leak free Nord engine using a few mods and modern sealing compounds.
New update.
Drove the car a decent distance today and it leaked like an oil waterfall!!
I made the decision to not use any gasket compounds on the sump gasket other than simple Permatex.
I think once the car got going and the oil was thrashing around against the back of the sump its leaked out.
And perhaps the cigarette seals havent seated properly thereby creating a gap between the bearing cap and the sump.
So, sump off again. Another sump gasket.
I think this time Im going to remove the newly installed cigarette seals, use the Permatex Grey that has been suggested in this thread in their place then use some Silastic or similar with the sump gasket at the rear.
Anyone got anything else to create a bulletproof leak-free 2ltr?
Ask Carlo above
If the cigarette seals are Modified and the Special Alfa Installation tool to fit them is used,,usually No leaks
I have never needed to use silicon or ultra Grey etc by itself cause I don't have a problem.
Lots of options
Ask Carlo if his leaks
As per the photo on wicks/cigarette seal in my earlier post above, it is imperative that the wiks/cigarette seals need to be trimmed flush with the block (must not protrude above or below) as this will cause the pan gasket not to seal on assembly (reference Haynes Workshop manual P44 figures 17.11d & e).
Quote from: bonno on November 28, 2019, 01:15:49 PM
As per the photo on wicks/cigarette seal in my earlier post above, it is imperative that the wiks/cigarette seals need to be trimmed flush with the block (must not protrude above or below) as this will cause the pan gasket not to seal on assembly (reference Haynes Workshop manual P44 figures 17.11d & e).
Have read that yes ... but ... the original Alfa recommendation is not to cut them. Mine did protrude, perhaps 2 - 3mm, but as per the Alfa guidlines the sump compresses them into the slot for a correct seal.
Saying that ... before I did the seal I had an active leak, that being persistent even when the car was stationary and not running. I no longer have that leak so I feel like the cigarette seals are doing their job but the protrusion is, as you say, causing the sump not to seal. So on repeated accelerations the oil is pushed to the back of the sump and seaps out that poor sump gasket seal.
I think my best approach is to:
1. remove sump, remove cigarette seals and follow Carlo's suggestion of rounding the top of the seals, inserting silicone and then pushing the seals back in. Cut off the protrusion up to about 1mm exposed. Replace sump with some silastic as the back edge.
2. just remove the sump, cut off any protruding cigarette seal then replace sump with some silicone along the back edge.
The lazy option is number 2. But I am confident the issue is simply the sump sealing to the block, or lack thereof.
Thanks to all for the comments.
Well this just keeps on going.
Three sump gaskets later and I now think its actually the new rear main seal I installed.
Fairly sure of that ... watching from underneath whilst the engine is running.
Once the oil gets hot it starts to flow out pretty rapidly.
So ... yay, engine out again.
Will shop around for another seal and ensure I am getting the correct seal for this engine (I think it originally came out of a 78 GTV).
Mate serioulsy your going down the rabbit hole again its not the rear oil seal guaranteed!
I did that as well
I finally went to Robert he waved his magic wand and MIne has not
dropped a drop of oil since .
its not the materials its the technique after doing a couple of 100
you learn what to do
option a) Robert
option b) do it a few more times
not being harsh but I really feel for you, mine was going through oil Like the Exon Valdez ,
you probably dont remember that,even after what i thought was a rear oil seal
dont panic call Robert
( as a joke the under side wont rust)
How do you know when your land rover is out of oil?, when it stops leaking
very old joke
Quote from: carlo rossi on January 20, 2020, 05:06:40 PM
Mate serioulsy your going down the rabbit hole again its not the rear oil seal guaranteed!
I did that as well
I finally went to Robert he waved his magic wand and MIne has not
dropped a drop of oil since .
its not the materials its the technique after doing a couple of 100
you learn what to do
option a) Robert
option b) do it a few more times
not being harsh but I really feel for you, mine was going through oil Like the Exon Valdez ,
you probably dont remember that,even after what i thought was a rear oil seal
dont panic call Robert
( as a joke the under side wont rust)
How do you know when your land rover is out of oil?, when it stops leaking
very old joke
Got a number for Magic Rob?
I am in agreement that it is unlikely to be the rear seal. I suspect the oil galley cover plate.
magic rob said i can give you the number
ps and anyone else who needs this
zero 418 nine six309 one
Thanks.
I have a new question on this topic.
I was putting the engine back in today and with it tilted backwards, flywheel at the low point, there was a steady stream of oil dripping out via the rear main seal.
Now, I did not drain the oil this time when I took the engine out ... didnt need to really and have been through so much oil in the process of doing sump gaskets I was keen to reuse this batch for the time being.
So my question ... with the engine tilted back like that ... with oil clearly flowing right up against the rear main seal ... should it be able to leak out past the seal??
It is clearly visible, and I can replicate the issue now that the engine is back on the stand ...
In many take off and acceleration situations the oil would thrash up against the rear main seal ... surely it should not let oil past like this.
I have the 82mm Akron seal.
Observe:
https://youtu.be/jspkfbV0tXk
This would simulate a moderately steep hill, surely it should not allow oil past like this.
Ahhhhh, NO!
There is something seriously wrong with the rear seal there. If it's a new seal are you sure you got the right size?
Must admit, it's a bloody novel way of proofing a problem. In the RAAF we call that "Lateral thinking"! ;)
From what you describe, it seems likely that the rear main oil seal is damaged/split or has a missing inner spring or damaged scored c/shaft journal. As you currently have the engine out, I would conduct the following check " mark the area were the leak is coming from and turn the engine at 90 degree increments and see if the leak still occurs". This will establish whether the seal (split) or the shaft journal surface is scored or missing oil spring or worn/hardened seal causing the leak. I will then remove and examine seal to establish cause. Then fit a new OEM seal if you have ruled out c/shaft journal is not scored/ damaged, assuming you have ruled out the cigarette seals. Refer to attached photo of a cross section of typical oil seal design.
Quote from: bonno on February 01, 2020, 08:26:28 PM
From what you describe, it seems likely that the rear main oil seal is damaged/split or has a missing inner spring or damaged scored c/shaft journal. As you currently have the engine out, I would conduct the following check " mark the area were the leak is coming from and turn the engine at 90 degree increments and see if the leak still occurs". This will establish whether the seal (split) or the shaft journal surface is scored or missing oil spring or worn/hardened seal causing the leak. I will then remove and examine seal to establish cause. Then fit a new OEM seal if you have ruled out c/shaft journal is not scored/ damaged, assuming you have ruled out the cigarette seals. Refer to attached photo of a cross section of typical oil seal design.
Will try these suggestions ... however I can say the crankshaft journal is clear and Ive done the cigarette seals.
Will inspect the seal itself. Its an 82mm Akron seal. Is there any reason the 82mm would cause a leak when an 84mm is required? I didnt make the choice when I bought the seal, just received an 82mm.
In response to your question is the 82mm seal OK, I have attached Rotary Seal Design Guide from Parker, in particular Clipper and Parker types used for rear main oil seal design. Refer to Page 6.3 Table 6.3 for 80 -100 for tolerance and Page 5.9 for Nomencluture/P/N - Clipper and Page 6.3 Table 6.1 for tolerance and Page 6.9 for Nomencluture./P/N – Parker.
https://www.parker.com/literature/Engineered%20Polymer%20Systems/5350.pdf
Thanks ... a simple 82mm or 84mm answer would've sufficed.
There are only two diameter seals available for the Alfetta engine. I have measured the crank journal, its 82mm.
Im assuming I would need the 82mm seal.
I not seriously going to read through all that.
Quote from: bonno on February 02, 2020, 09:20:23 AM
In response to your question is the 82mm seal OK, I have attached Rotary Seal Design Guide from Parker, in particular Clipper and Parker types used for rear main oil seal design. Refer to Page 6.3 Table 6.3 for 80 -100 for tolerance and Page 5.9 for Nomencluture/P/N - Clipper and Page 6.3 Table 6.1 for tolerance and Page 6.9 for Nomencluture./P/N – Parker.
https://www.parker.com/literature/Engineered%20Polymer%20Systems/5350.pdf
Well I dragged myself through that document ... it all just tells me that the tolerances are very tight so the 82mm seal is the one I need to have.
Is there any reason the 82mm would cause a leak when an 84mm is required? I didnt make the choice when I bought the seal, just received an 82mm.
[/quote]
Did not expect you to read the entire document for your answer! That is why I quoted the relevant pages and tables.
Regards
bonno
Hang on, what is the correct size deal that is SUPPOSED to be fitted?
Quote from: bazzbazz on February 02, 2020, 04:45:08 PM
Hang on, what is the correct size deal that is SUPPOSED to be fitted?
There are only two sizes .. 82mm and 84mm.
Yes, but what is the the size that is SUPPOSED to be fitted, according to specs/workshop manual/part# diagram.
You can't fit just which ever, you can only fit one or the other, there is only 1 correct size to be fitted for that model.
Or have we gone through a time warp and the laws of mechanics & engineering have changed and I didn't get the memo? (I never get the memo) ::)
A quick google search found 2 alfabb threads giving info about years and sizes with the exemption of the spiders which were a lucky dip, having both sizes regardless of a particular year.
I've already forgotten which is which and when...
82mm all the way up to mid Alfa 75 T/S production, so around 1990-ish went to 84mm seal. Late Spiders overlapped this period too.
Make sure you fit the rear seal AFTER the rear main cap is tensioned down into position. If you put the seal in place then tighten the main cap, you will ovalize the seal & it will most likely leak.
Cheers,
Vin.
Hi Vin, thanks for the clarification.
I was chatting to the guys at EB Spares last night and they said the same thing.
Good to know.
I'll get myself a Corteco seal as it seems they are the more popular over the Akron.
I still believe your cigarette seals are too long pushing the sump gasket out and letting oil through
happy to see an end to this one ,but on the other hand whats your down too for pulling out a motor ?
Ok, let me go through the history of the cigarette seals and why I believe that area is now sorted.
First time I installed them I decided to follow the "don't cut" advise. They protruded about 3mm. Sump went on, ran car to temp, short drive, lots of oil. So I took the sump off and found the cigarette seals had not pushed further into the main cap as desired but had in fact compressed and spread outward to interfere with the mating surfaces, as you now suspect.
So I then took the "cut" advice and cut them flush with the block.
Sump back on and ran car to temp. Absolutely zero evidence of oil coming out from where the sump mates to the block.
And, as per my video, there is a clear issue with the rear main seal.
So I now feel confident this is the primary issue with my oil leak.