So I had the 'Low battery' warning, followed a shortish while later by the engine just shutting off, and a dead battery. Of course this was at a traffic light facing uphill with lots of surrounding traffic and other drivers being less than understanding or sympathetic...
Anyway, on getting the car home (with another fully charged battery), I nonchalantly removed the plenum chamber, which went swimmingly with zero problems (other than all the blood, the sweat, the tears, the cramps, the swearing...). Then I removed the alternator (which was easy...). On inspection the brushes were very short and the slip rings worn and blackened (as expected). I have another 147 I recently acquired for parts, so again I nonchalantly removed the plenum etc (you'd think it would be easier the second time knowing the lay of the land under there, but it was actually more difficult...). I then extracted the alternator, and held it aloft...
I knew this alternator worked, but on inspection it became apparent that it had only maybe 20 or 30 thousand kms left in it (if I was very lucky). Same deal, short brushes, just not as short. At least this unit had better slip rings, was silent and the bearings seemed perfect (which on the other one were questionable if not yet bad). The last thing I ever want to do at the moment is remove the alternator ever again, so not wanting to risk another SH unit, or pay mega bucks for a new one, I started looking for new brushes, and came up with exactly nothing, nowhere. Apparently they are an unusual and rare size, why wouldn't they be...
Plan B, I ventured to the auto electrician and made a pest of myself until they found me some brushes from some Bosch alternator. These are too big, but that is what I was looking for. The original brushes were 3.9mm X 7mm X ?mm length, with a side exit 'pigtail'. The Bosch brushes were 4.9mm X 8mm X 17mm with a side exit pigtail ('pigtail' being the cable attached to the brush.
I removed the old brushes. Then I sanded the new ones down until they fitted and slid smoothly in the brush slots (they sand easily, take your time and measure, measure , measure). I then drilled holes in the metal tabs to which the ends of the pigtails attach / are soldered (one hole per tab per pigtail), inserted the pigtails, wrapped them around a bit and soldered them in place.
This was all a bit fiddly but not too difficult. I filed little chamfers onto the curved ends of the new brushes so that they would fit into the wear slots in the old slip rings, to the bottom of the worn section (the new brushes are a bit thicker than the old ones). This was just to increase contact area while the brushes are wearing in, later they will (should) wear to the exact shape of the slip rings. The new brushes are a much better fit in the slides than the old ones would ever have been (quite a sloppy fit).
The brushes are Bosch GB610, cost $15.00. I don't know what alternators in what cars they are for.
As yet the alternator is still on the bench, I'll be fitting it tomorrow, with fingers crossed...
Regards,
John.
You are ahead of me. I'm still limping along on the dying alternator.
Did you note any identification marks (eg, part number) on the brush-holder/regulator? There's a Polish supplier of almost anything and between them and another East European supplier called Alt-Star it's possible to dig up all sorts of cross references.
https://en.as-pl.com/
https://www.altstar.kiev.ua/index.php
Was it a Bosh Alternator or Magnetti Marelli that you fitted the brushes to?
If it was a Bosch, replacement Regulator Modules (with new brushes) are available from here -
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Genuine-BOSCH-Voltage-regulator-F00MA45206/223413331835?fits=Model%3A156%7CMake%3AAlfa+Romeo&hash=item340478e77b:g:ShgAAOSwWkhcuapE&frcectupt=true (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Genuine-BOSCH-Voltage-regulator-F00MA45206/223413331835?fits=Model%3A156%7CMake%3AAlfa+Romeo&hash=item340478e77b:g:ShgAAOSwWkhcuapE&frcectupt=true)
or here
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Alfa-Romeo-Gt-166-156-147-Fiat-Lancia-BOSCH-Alternator-Voltage-Regulator-1995/162567999221?fits=Model%3A156%7CMake%3AAlfa+Romeo&epid=27015393917&hash=item25d9cecef5:g:KT0AAOSwA~5ccsWH (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Alfa-Romeo-Gt-166-156-147-Fiat-Lancia-BOSCH-Alternator-Voltage-Regulator-1995/162567999221?fits=Model%3A156%7CMake%3AAlfa+Romeo&epid=27015393917&hash=item25d9cecef5:g:KT0AAOSwA~5ccsWH)
They just screw on.
Just one thing, did the charge warning light illuminate on the dash display?
Haven't found just brushes yet, but the whole reg/brush holder is neither uncommon nor dear.
MM/Fiat P/N 77365275 or 77365276 (tropicalised)
https://www.altstar.kiev.ua/index.php?pg=podbor&p=77365275
Bazz,
Both of my alternators are the same. The first marks I saw were moulded into the plastic back end cover, and say "Magneti Marelli" (and I just found a number inside the plastic end cover; 8362484.0).
"Magneti Marelli" is also moulded onto the plastic brush holder. So, I had just been assuming it was a MM alternator, until closer inspection reveals a dirty external sticker marked "Denso Made in Italy" with various ID numbers as well. "Denso" is also cast onto the aluminium casing. So...?
The new brushes are made for some Bosch alternator(s) of unknown application. I just hacked them about (carefully) to fit my alternator (MM or Denso? Don't really know...).
CB,
The only marks on the plastic brush holder thingy are "Magneti Marelli made in Italy" with no part numbers. There is a squat metal cylinder attached to the plastic holder marked "Denso L9106 A R22B30328 Malta" (once the dirt is removed...).
Thanks for the link to the regulator / brush unit (looks very similar but not identical, the rectangular mystery box is a squat metal cylinder on mine). I couldn't find any brush holder thingys anywhere for this particular alternator. Neither could the auto electrician find any listings for it on the databases he can access...
Regards,
John.
Did the charge warning light illuminate on the dash display?
The reason I ask is that there is more than worn brushes that can cause your alternator not to charge, such as a dud diode pack!
I just don't want you to go through all the trouble of refitting everything only for it to be still faulty.
I know the reg/brush holder you mean, trying to drag it up now but the Polish site is running at glacial speed.
This one? https://en.as-pl.com/p/ARE4020(MM)
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 11, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
Did the charge warning light illuminate on the dash display?
The reason I ask is that there is more than worn brushes that can cause your alternator not to charge, such as a dud diode pack!
I just don't want you to go through all the trouble of refitting everything only for it to be still faulty.
Thanks Bazz,
No warnings other than "battery charge low", or words to that effect. And no syptoms other than the engine abruptly cutting out and then failing to restart with an obviously very flat battery. I know there is potentially more to it than just brushes, but I'm taking the chance that the issue was brushes since they were visually stuffed, i.e. very short, with one having a dull rubbing surface, and blackened slip ring surfaces where the brushes were obviously were failing to properly contact the rings, i.e. an abvious fault very likely to cause poor charging. I really dislike auto electricals...
The polish part may well fit, but how long to order from Europe? I need to get the car back on the road ASAP, so I needed a local and quickly implementable solution (with luck on my side...).
-----------------------
For those yet to have the pleasure of attempting to access the alternator, there are supposedly two ways to do it, by dropping the subframe or by removing the plenum. I read a someone saying say they had tried it both ways and removing the plenum is easier, Hmmm...
I went from the top. This way the hardest part of accessing the alternator is removing the plenum chamber. The hardest part about removing the plenum is the two bolts beneath the plenum, which attach it to a brace. These are impossible to see, very difficult to find / feel, hard to get a spanner on, and with almost no room to swing the spanner. To add complication, AR has seen fit to provide an effective net of wires and cables in the vicinity around the bolts, which all get in the way.
For further misery, the bolts are zinc (?) plated, screwed into brass inserts in the plastic plenum. It seems the plating and the brass develop a keen fondness for each other and are very unwilling to be parted, i.e. I think there is a chemical reaction between the disimilar metals and they become very bonded...
I managed to undo three of these bolts from above, but couldn't (literally) crack the fourth from there (remember was doing this on two cars, so two plenums and so two X two of these bolts). For the fourth bolt I had to get underneath the car, which was fun due to my trolley jack giving up the ghost so I was unable to lift the car onto a high enough setting on the car stands. Even with my face against the bottom of the floorpan it was possible to get a socket onto the plenum bolt from below using a very long extension (all my extensions joined together). Even so, the offending bolt was still unbelievably tight and difficult to undo (I was expecting the plenum to crack, but it didn't happen). I would have tried this earlier in the day had the jack been working properly, and it's how I'd reccomend approaching these bolts. On replacement the bolts will be slathered in grease in the hope of avoiding similar seizure in the future.
There are also two bolts attaching the plenum to the underside of the manifold, just beneath manifold branches 1 and 4. These are not all that easy to access (at least not the one under branch 1, which is a bit of a stretch to reach under the manifold / plenum from the other end of the engine), but they pale beside the bolts on the underside of the plenum.
Oh, and there are a plethora of wires attached to the back and undeside of the plenum with little clips, which are a pain to undo until you get the knack of it (by which time your fingertips are very sore). When I removed the first plenum, once everything was detached I managed to wiggle it free and out, just. With the second plenum, it just wouldn't come out until I jacked the engine up on its' mounts by a few mm.
I'm confident that reinstalling all this will be an enjoyable and troublefree experience with no unexpected tribulations (I keep telling myself...).
Regards,
John.
Next time do it from below, much less stressful. An extra pair of hands helps getting the alternator back in the bracket, but much easier than getting the plenum and all the other plethora out of the way. (Just my humble opinion)
It may not be quicker, just less stressful, and besides, your on your back rather than bending over, and if you get tired, you can cat nap. :)
WoodAuto have a cross to the Polish part number, it's one of their in-house codes. About £40 plus post.
https://www.woodauto.com/product/VRG47439
Does that picture match yours exactly?
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 11, 2019, 10:42:27 PM
WoodAuto have a cross to the Polish part number, it's one of their in-house codes. About £40 plus post.
https://www.woodauto.com/product/VRG47439
Does that picture match yours exactly?
Pretty much does.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 11, 2019, 10:28:31 PM
It may not be quicker, just less stressful, and besides, your on your back rather than bending over, and if you get tired, you can cat nap. :)
Said the Bishop to the actress.... ;D
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 11, 2019, 10:28:31 PM
Next time do it from below, much less stressful. An extra pair of hands helps getting the alternator back in the bracket, but much easier than getting the plenum and all the other plethora out of the way. (Just my humble opinion)
It may not be quicker, just less stressful, and besides, your on your back rather than bending over, and if you get tired, you can cat nap. :)
One of the reasons I decided to go in from the top rather than drop the subframe was specifically to avoid lying on my back working under a car, with too little space, and too little bodily flexibility (I can do it, but my back will likely be an issue the next day...).
So the alternator went back in this afternoon. I was going mad trying to get the 'new' alternator (from the donor car) to fit onto the lower bracket (through which the bigger of the two attachment bolts pass). I spent ages (and spilled blood) but just couldn't get the damn thing to slide onto the bracket. It seemed for all the world as if the alternator was too narrow to fit onto the bracket (which surely couldn't be right...). So, I re-extricate it and measure the two 'nators side by side. Sure enough, the gap into which the bracket fits in the alternator was more 1mm narrower on the donor unit, so couldn't possibly fit onto the bracket. But but but surely these things are mass produced to reasonably tight tolerances??...aargh, bloody Italians...
At least I found the problem before too long and had only gone slightly 'spare'.
What I found; there is a steel tube in one arm of the alternator body which is split along its' length and is 'spring loaded' into its' hole in the body casting. This split tube is a tight fit but it can be moved in or out using some force. I used a vice and a socket to move the tube about 2mm. This widened the gap into which the bracket fits, and it just fell into place on the bracket (well not quite, but it wasn't difficult). Tightening the bolt automatically pushes the tube into the correct position to suit the bracket width. Never seen this before...
Anyway, tomorrow the plenum goes back on. I am worried about the state of the four rubber induction tubes. They are old and hard and seem likely to be brittle. The other day I bought eight new hose clamps to use on these, because I'm not a fan of the clamps AR uses (for starters I don't have the correct pliers, but other than that just not a fan). However, the new clamps are too wide for the old indented clamp grooves in the tubes, and I suspect may destroy the likely brittle rubber when tightened.
I'm not convinced that re-using the old hose clamps on the old hard tubes will result in a good seal (even if I can get them to 'click' without the correct pliers, I may have to get some), so will probably use some 'Aviation gasket', or, consider replacing the tubes...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: johnl on July 12, 2019, 09:05:56 PM
One of the reasons I decided to go in from the top rather than drop the subframe was specifically to avoid lying on my back working under a car, with too little space, and too little bodily flexibility (I can do it, but my back will likely be an issue the next day...).
You don't drop the subframe, you remove the lower engine mount, giving you a large hole to work through to disconnect/undo everything. Then you support the engine with a trolley jack, undo the front engine mount (drivers side) and rotate the engine forward, pivoting on the gearbox mount, to give you the clearance needed to remove Alternator and insert new one through the same hole where you removed the lower engine mount.
Quote from: johnl on July 12, 2019, 09:05:56 PM
What I found; there is a steel tube in one arm of the alternator body which is split along its' length and is 'spring loaded' into its' hole in the body casting. This split tube is a tight fit but it can be moved in or out using some force. I used a vice and a socket to move the tube about 2mm. This widened the gap into which the bracket fits, and it just fell into place on the bracket (well not quite, but it wasn't difficult). Tightening the bolt automatically pushes the tube into the correct position to suit the bracket width. Never seen this before...
What John is referring to here are the mounting bushings on the Alternator.
Split sleeve, what I've always referred to as "slip and grip" for the way they take up clearance then stay solid. You get them in the mountings of some PAS and hydraulic pumps too.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 13, 2019, 08:55:52 AM
You don't drop the subframe, you remove the lower engine mount, giving you a large hole to work through to disconnect/undo everything. Then you support the engine with a trolley jack, undo the front engine mount (drivers side) and rotate the engine forward, pivoting on the gearbox mount, to give you the clearance needed to remove Alternator and insert new one through the same hole where you removed the lower engine mount.
My misunderstanding or misrecollection of something I read some time ago. Still seems like a mission...
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 13, 2019, 08:55:52 AM
What John is referring to here are the mounting bushings on the Alternator.
Yes, that one. There is only one separate steel bushing (which can be moved to adjust the width) located in one of the body arms. The other arm has a hole directly in the body casting through which the bolt passes (without a bush). Is this a common thing? I've never noticed it before on any other car, maybe because I've never before had an issue getting an alternator to fit onto its' bracket...
So the plenum is in, awaiting fixture of the throttle body tomorrow. More blood was spilled today, but at least it wasn't gushing, only the reopening of wounds from the last few days. It's just a product of tight spaces (very), sharp things, and zero visibility. Still to tighten one of the two under-plenum bolts, they're both in place (with plenty of grease on the threads) and one is tight. The other is just too hard to tighten from above, when the engine can be started I'll run the car up on ramps and tighten it from below. Filled the trolley jack with fluid today, still no joy, won't lift. Looks like time for new piston seals (again).
Decided to re-use the stock clamps for the plenum / manifold connecting tubes. The aged tubes seem likely to be brittle, and using wider clamps in the narrow clamp grooves will most probably stress them unduly and cause them to split. So, I tried to purchase some 'Clip-R' type pliers today, needless to say with no success. In the end it didn't matter, had a good look on the internet and decided it would be easy enough to modify a 'normal' pair of pliers. This I did (angle grinders are so good), and they work fine.
I used 'Aviation gasket' (non hardening sealant) on the tubes where they connect to the plenum and manifold, which should ensure the hard old rubber seals properly. The bolt under number 1 manifold runner was an utter. I ground the end conical to help it start, which did help but not as much as would have been appreciated...
The plenum does seem very secure and stable when held
only by the four induction tubes and the two manifold bolts (can't make it wiggle at all). So I do wonder just how necessary the under plenum brace actually is. I have a doubt that it does all that much, especially considering that the brace incorporates a fairly soft rubber bush. I suspect that the plenum is so secure and stable already (with just the two manifold bolts and the four tubes) that the bush won't ever 'see' any significant deflection. I further suspect that if the bush does 'absorb' any movement, that such movement could still be enough to allow the plenum and / or induction tubes to crack. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is likely that the brace can do any significant bracing with that soft bush in it, only if the connection to the plenum were 'solid' and flex free. I could be wrong, and not willing to run the experiment...
So I'm on the home stretch with this little job. All in all, I have to say that I think I would much rather change a head gasket...
Regards,
John.
So after all that, you REALLY think just dropping the exhaust & removing the lower engine mount is harder! ???
;D ;D ;D
I did an Alternator change on a GTV TS the other week, all in & all out, finished, driving down the road was 4.5 hrs. Not bragging or trying to be a smart arse, just saying I think it's easier. Seriously, the effort to remove the manifold is substantial, especially the two fixing bolts at each end that attach to the metal runner bracket, as you have mentioned, they are such utter BASTARDS to get off, they alone make me go the underneath method.
Quote from: johnl on July 13, 2019, 06:24:27 PM
The plenum does seem very secure and stable when held only by the four induction tubes and the two manifold bolts (can't make it wiggle at all). So I do wonder just how necessary the under plenum brace actually is. I have a doubt that it does all that much, especially considering that the brace incorporates a fairly soft rubber bush. I suspect that the plenum is so secure and stable already (with just the two manifold bolts and the four tubes) that the bush won't ever 'see' any significant deflection. I further suspect that if the bush does 'absorb' any movement, that such movement could still be enough to allow the plenum and / or induction tubes to crack. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is likely that the brace can do any significant bracing with that soft bush in it, only if the connection to the plenum were 'solid' and flex free. I could be wrong, and not willing to run the experiment...
Without it the plenum has a tendency to crack/split from its own weight & vibration, which results in all sorts of issues from air leaks.
Quote from: johnl on July 13, 2019, 06:24:27 PM
Decided to re-use the stock clamps for the plenum / manifold connecting tubes. The aged tubes seem likely to be brittle, and using wider clamps in the narrow clamp grooves will most probably stress them unduly and cause them to split. So, I tried to purchase some 'Clip-R' type pliers today, needless to say with no success. In the end it didn't matter, had a good look on the internet and decided it would be easy enough to modify a 'normal' pair of pliers. This I did (angle grinders are so good), and they work fine.
Available from Supercheap -
https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/toledo-toledo-hose-clamp-pliers/SPO1061712.html#q=pliers&sz=12&start=72 (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/toledo-toledo-hose-clamp-pliers/SPO1061712.html#q=pliers&sz=12&start=72)
And a special order, so not a walk-up sale.
I know the Toolforce mobile toolies used to offer them.
At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 13, 2019, 09:47:24 PM
So after all that, you REALLY think just dropping the exhaust & removing the lower engine mount is harder! ???
;D ;D ;D
I did an Alternator change on a GTV TS the other week, all in & all out, finished, driving down the road was 4.5 hrs. Not bragging or trying to be a smart arse, just saying I think it's easier. Seriously, the effort to remove the manifold is substantial, especially the two fixing bolts at each end that attach to the metal runner bracket, as you have mentioned, they are such utter BASTARDS to get off, they alone make me go the underneath method.
Bazz,
Did I say that I thought the way that I have already done it would be easier than the way you suggest? I only said that from underneath as you describe still sounded like a serious mission. I don't want to ever do it again, either way, regardless of which way is somewhat quicker or easier...
Yes, the two bolts at each end of the manifold are utter bastards, but not quite the
complete and utter bastards that the two under plenum bolts are. I had a lot more trouble with those. If I had this to do over again (God forbid...), I'd have a good look at the possibility of drilling the holes in the ferrules oversize to fascillitate easier insertion and thread starting of the bolts (i.e. the two bolts at each end of the manifold).
This job has taken a lot longer (in days) than it otherwise would only because my time is not completely my own. I am of an age where I find myself as carer for a geriatric parent with dementia, whose needs are very time consuming, and increasingly more so lately. I just have trouble getting solid blocks of time, so jobs get done bit by bit as opportunities present themselves...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 13, 2019, 09:54:23 PM
Without it the plenum has a tendency to crack/split from its own weight & vibration, which results in all sorts of issues from air leaks.
Is there proof of this? Has it actually happened? Has anyone actually tried deleting the brace and had the plenum crack as a result? The bush is quite soft, I don't think it offers much support in the first few mm of movement caused by vibration (assuming that movement caused by vibration does occur), i.e. I suspect the plenum would vibrate easily if the only support in that axis were to be that bush, and what really stops it happening is posssibly the other things that are holding it in place. As I said, I'm only speculating and could be wrong.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 13, 2019, 09:54:23 PM
Available from Supercheap -
I Went to AutoOne, Autopro, Autobarn, and to Supercheap. All of the 'expert staff' I spoke to said that they wouldn't stock something like that, or words to the effect. I'm shocked that I seem to have been given incorrect information...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 13, 2019, 10:12:43 PM
At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.
Ordinary pliers with an angled grind on the face of each jaw, rebated enough that the little hook isn't impeded as it moves past the edge of the other hook on the clip. Took five minutes to modify my least favourite pliers that I never use, and they do the job perfectly. Cost = effectively $0.00.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 11, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
Did the charge warning light illuminate on the dash display?
The reason I ask is that there is more than worn brushes that can cause your alternator not to charge, such as a dud diode pack!
I just don't want you to go through all the trouble of refitting everything only for it to be still faulty.
147's don't have a battery light, only a display warning. 156's have a battery light, and you are correct, 9 times out of 10, a battery light on is a regulator, and no charge with no battery light is a diode.
+ 1 for removal as you described, although I usually undo the gearbox side mount and gives me plenty of room also. Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.
A hoist always makes things easier!
Mick.
Quote from: Mick A on July 14, 2019, 03:03:45 AM
Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.
I'd pay good money to see that. ;)
Quote from: Mick A on July 14, 2019, 03:03:45 AM
Can usually have an alternator changed over in about an hour this way.
Just decided that I really don't like you anymore...
I had read two stories about, and had no experience of, ways in which this could be done. I just picked a method largely influenced by a desire not to be lying on my back under the car. The plenum didn't
look all that hard to take out, but then you reach a point of no return. If I knew then what I know now...
Quote from: Mick A on July 14, 2019, 03:03:45 AM
A hoist always makes things easier!
Mick.
Sure does. A lot. The rest of us struggle through with ramps and a trolley jack (in this instance one which packed up half way through the job...).
Regards,
John.
Quote from: Mick A on July 14, 2019, 03:03:45 AM
147's don't have a battery light, only a display warning.
Mick.
Which is simply ridiculous, considering that 99% of other cars have such a warning light and it would cost next to nothing to include. The display warning only tells you that the battery is nearly flat, not that it is not being charged. There is a significant difference in the usefullness of these two pieces of information, quite possibly the difference between getting home or to a workshop, and being stranded kilometres from anywhere...
Regards,
John.
As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?
Quote from: johnl on July 14, 2019, 12:32:46 AM
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 13, 2019, 10:12:43 PM
At a pinch, back-ground pincers (grind off the front bevel to flush) will do the trick.
Ordinary pliers with an angled grind on the face of each jaw, rebated enough that the little hook isn't impeded as it moves past the edge of the other hook on the clip. Took five minutes to modify my least favourite pliers that I never use, and they do the job perfectly. Cost = effectively $0.00.
Regards,
John.
I have $7 ebay copies of the Toledo ones that work pretty well. Recently decided to "upgrade" to a set of Knipex Cobra pliers after installing some very firm silicone sleeves on my intake tubes. Imagine my delight when the almighty Knipex (RRP$80) turned out to be complete rubbish that were vastly inferior to the $7 ebay jobs. The one advantage they have is long handles giving you more leverage but I had to do what you did and reshape the jaws for them to work.
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 14, 2019, 09:22:14 AM
As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?
Not seen them, but sounds too cheap and nasty, even for me...
I'd like a proper voltmeter on the dash, and proper oil pressure, and oil temperature, all nicely presented so it doesn't look shite. But I'm dreaming, I know I'll never get around to fitting any of these gauges.
Anyway, the engine runs, at last. I have 12.5ish volts without the engine running, and high 14 to low 15 volts with the engine running, so the alternator is doing something. I've idled it up to temperature, and the car is now on ramps. I'm waiting for it to cool down so I can tighten the last plenum bolt from below. So far so good, but I haven't yet driven anywhere, and I'll be carrying a spare fully charged battery around for a few days...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: johnl on July 14, 2019, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 14, 2019, 09:22:14 AM
As a cheap backup, what about one of those voltmeters which plugs into the lighter socket?
Not seen them, but sounds too cheap and nasty, even for me...
I'd like a proper voltmeter on the dash, and proper oil pressure, and oil temperature, all nicely presented so it doesn't look shite. But I'm dreaming, I know I'll never get around to fitting any of these gauges.
Anyway, the engine runs, at last. I have 12.5ish volts without the engine running, and high 14 to low 15 volts with the engine running, so the alternator is doing something. I've idled it up to temperature, and the car is now on ramps. I'm waiting for it to cool down so I can tighten the last plenum bolt from below. So far so good, but I haven't yet driven anywhere, and I'll be carrying a spare fully charged battery around for a few days...
Regards,
John.
Bluetooth OBD2 to your phone... all the stats you desire
Quote from: Craig_m67 on July 14, 2019, 03:48:44 PM
Bluetooth OBD2 to your phone... all the stats you desire
Umm, I still live in the 20th century, and still have a 'dumb' phone, one day I'll be forced to catch up...
Anyway, went for a long drive this evening with several engine stops and starts. No problems at all, and my headlights seem brighter...
Worst part of the trip was passing all the kart trailers leaving the local track. It was a State Titles meeting there today, and I just can't race, no time, few dollars...
Regards,
John.
It's a shame the label apparently fell off your original unit. I've been trawling UK Fleabay but can't come to a consistent determination of the OE part number physically applied to the unit (not necesscelery as assigned in ePer).
I intent to - if possible - positively identify the item in this way and order a full new rev/brushholder from WoodAuto, likely about $95 the part plus $30 freight. Would any of the remaining 147 2.0 pilots be interested in piggybacking onto my purchase (no profit applied)?
CB,
I didn't say the sticker had been lost. I mentioned that there was one with various numbers printed on it, but didn't give the numbers (sticker is on the main body of the alternator). After cleaning the dirt, the totality of what can be read is as follows;
DENSO
Made in Italy
63321836
A115IM
C132 24703/2
46782219
14V (or it could be 14U, but 'V' makes more sense...)
90 A
And a barcode
I can't read the numbers on the other alternator (the one now in the car), but since they both seem identical I assume the numbers are the same.
Hope that helps. It's still strange that there are various components of the alternator clearly marked 'Magneti Marelli'.
Anyway, you don't want to try adapting other carbon brushes as I have done? It's worked well and cost me only $15.00. This was really the point of this topic, a heads up to the possibility of an alternative solution if the correct brushes / brush holder thingy were not easily or quickly (or cheaply) sourceable.
If you recall I used Bosch GB610 brushes. Adapting them was relatively quick and easy, you just need a sheet of relatively fine grit emery paper to sand them down to the required width / thickness, a soldering iron, and the ability to do simple electrical soldering (which I'm confident you would have).
Regards,
John.
Quote from: sportiva on July 16, 2019, 01:34:38 PM
You could try this, it's what I did when I last had the plenum out it only adds a couple of minutes to the job
If you loosen the bolts for the plenum brace at the block this will allow movement at the T section that will allow you to position and replace the bolts easily at the T, then tighten all of them up.
Thanks Sportiva,
Yes, I did that. It introduced yet another problem.
The heads on those two bolts are very shallow and don't protrude very far into the socket head or ring of the spanner. If (as is common) the socket or ring does not have the ridges of the hex points extending all the way to the very end of the socket / ring bore (there is usually a chamfer here at the mouth of the tool), then the shallow bolt hex and recessed socket / ring hex ridges don't mesh very securely, and the spanner ring or socket head easily comes off the head of the bolt. This happens just when you begin trying to exert force to tighten the bolt. Keeping in mind that we are trying to tighten these bolts when it is impossible to see what is happening, very dificult to get the tool onto the bolt head in the first place, and then very difficult to apply force to the tool, it is quite frustrating (especially when holding the tool with hands lubricated with dirt, oil, sweat, blood...).
To alleviate this I ground the ends of the ring spanners and sockets that I was using until the hex ridges extended to the very end of the tools, which helped but the problem still existed. If I was doing this over again I'd replace those two bolts for ones with deeper head hexes.
Regards,
John.
Have to say, I have never encountered such badly designed bolts on any other car, even my Alfetta sedan I once owned (in the late Pre-Cambrian...). Not even the FIAT 124 Sports engine that I had in my Old Nota clubman car had bolt heads like that...
Regards,
John.
As I mention before, the brace is there to support the lower part of the Plenum, without it it has a tendency to separate at the seam, as it is made of two halves. The two upper bolts only support the upper half, so there is a reason for that pain in the arse lower support. And yes, I have personally come across plenums separating/cracking.
As for fitting the bolts, I just do it from underneath with very long extensions, just needs a steady hand.
Quote from: Citroënbender on July 16, 2019, 12:20:12 PM
It's a shame the label apparently fell off your original unit. I've been trawling UK Fleabay but can't come to a consistent determination of the OE part number physically applied to the unit (not necesscelery as assigned in ePer).
I intent to - if possible - positively identify the item in this way and order a full new rev/brushholder from WoodAuto, likely about $95 the part plus $30 freight. Would any of the remaining 147 2.0 pilots be interested in piggybacking onto my purchase (no profit applied)?
Why don't you try some local club sponsors, as they may have the Marelli and Bosch Alternator regulators in stock...............
I reckon Italian Automotive Spares might have them in stock. ;)
(What? Not subtle enough?) ???
(Sorry, the vino made me do it) ;D
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 16, 2019, 03:47:18 PM
As I mention before, the brace is there to support the lower part of the Plenum, without it it has a tendency to separate at the seam, as it is made of two halves. The two upper bolts only support the upper half, so there is a reason for that pain in the arse lower support. And yes, I have personally come across plenums separating/cracking.
Bazz,
I'm willing to accept that not connecting the brace will at least increase the chances of the plenum cracking or some way coming apart, and that it could happen (despite
appearing unlikely). I was tempted not to, but as I said wasn't confident that it might not cause a plenum issue, so I did connect it...
I noticed the plenum seam, and the multitude of little springy clips that appear to hold the two halves together. I suspect that if one were actually wanting to separate them, that it would be next to impossible...
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 16, 2019, 03:47:18 PM
As for fitting the bolts, I just do it from underneath with very long extensions, just needs a steady hand.
Well, my trolley jack wasn't cooperating, and while it would have been possible to use a scissor jack to get the height needed it is a PITA so I perservered from above. Good news for today is that the jack is back online...
Regards,
John.
Quote from: johnl on July 16, 2019, 08:01:33 PM
I noticed the plenum seam, and the multitude of little springy clips that appear to hold the two halves together. I suspect that if one were actually wanting to separate them, that it would be next to impossible...
Never said the clips let go, because that not what happens. What happens is it CRACKS along the seam area from vibration and not being supported. There IS a reason why the support is there.
It's not that it will definitely happen, but it can happen.
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 16, 2019, 08:44:50 PM
Never said the clips let go, because that not what happens. What happens is it CRACKS along the seam area from vibration and not being supported. There IS a reason why the support is there.
Ah, then you meant that it can separate
adjacent to the seam...
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 16, 2019, 08:44:50 PM
It's not that it will definitely happen, but it can happen.
I believe you, since you've seen it. Still surprises me though.
Battery continues to remain charged, and the engine feels to have a tad more power (but high possibility of placebo effect...).
Regards,
John.
Quote from: Domenic on July 16, 2019, 04:53:04 PMWhy don't you try some local club sponsors, as they may have the Marelli and Bosch Alternator regulators in stock...............
In these situations, I invite contact from local sources who can supply OE items ex stock at a comparable price.
You invite contact?
Yes, Mick A had no trouble messaging when he knew I was looking for something he had on the shelf. Price was fine, I paid, he posted that day.
Read through this thread but possibly missed it and so with some poetic license, here's a hot tip for knuckle savers.
BEFORE you reinstall your rebuilt alternator in the belief that surely it will now work given all the love and bleeding knuckles bestowed upon it, dig into the cookie jar and make a contribution to your local auto elec shop beer fund. While you are there, ask them to run up the unit and test it for charge UNDER LOAD. This will show up any problems that can relate to diodes, regulators, brushes and any intermittencies in the windings.
If you fail to do this, you just may have to repeat the joyful exercise a few times until you get it percolating. Your call.