Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 939 Series (159, Brera and Brera Spider) => Topic started by: murray_dee_87 on January 23, 2019, 08:31:25 AM

Title: 159 TI too low
Post by: murray_dee_87 on January 23, 2019, 08:31:25 AM
I have a 159 TI which comes with the sports suspension. Don't get me wrong it looks amazing but I found I scrape on everything, when is low too low? Anyone else have this problem


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Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: poohbah on January 23, 2019, 12:11:52 PM
I don't have a 159, but all my Alfas (2x156 and 1x116GTV) were/are lowered, and they inevitably scrape on some things.

For my 156s, the only real scraping point has been the front chin - but primarily only when entering/leaving a ramp, or going over really big speed bumps, or if you park with the nose over a raised kerb. So really not an issue,  you soon get accustomed to being more careful when navigating such items.

The GTV used to scrape at the front and the rear on virtually any raised object. But I discovered this was due to 2 factors - shoddy exhaust manifold/collector hanging too far below sump at the front and exhaust pipe hanging too low at the rear. Ageing dampers/springs probably also a contributing factor.

Since had the exhaust system fixed, and no more problems.

If you think your car is scraping unusually often, you could check your tyres are properly inflated, and that the springs/shocks don't feel unusually 'flaccid". Also have a squiz to see if there is anything that looks like its protruding below sump level more than it should.

If it has a factory lowered suspension option, you shouldn't be having too many issues other than the chin scraping on really steep ramps and some of the higher speed bumps/kerbs  councils seem obsessed with installing these days. Those bolted on, rectangular raised rubber speed humps seem to be the worst.

Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: GTV6SA on January 23, 2019, 12:34:46 PM
I have a 3.2 Ti and you must slow down for all speed humps  as well as steep driveways, its something to get use to if you own a Ti ,be especially careful of the humps in industrial units because if you arent careful and hit those  can cause the exhaust  to move upwards on impact and damage the 2 lambda probes
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: V AR 164 on January 23, 2019, 02:15:24 PM
Mines not a Ti, but has the optional eibach lowering kit from the factory. I never ever scraped it on anything. I always approach driveways/speedbumps on an angle and never have any issues.

My 164 is about 70mm off the ground from its lowest point and again I've never scraped it. Just gotta get into the habbit of going slow over bumps and angling the car going up driveways and such.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Pseudonym on January 23, 2019, 04:15:10 PM
Technically it's the kerbs and bumps that are too high - ADRs mandate specific angles and heights for vehicles that correspond to road design guidelines, but generally local councils follow the guidelines and private car parks do whatever they like. You can always get standard springs if you can live with the look, also by many accounts raising the ride height improves tire wear greatly.

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Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: David Mills on January 23, 2019, 08:30:19 PM
Our 3.2 Ti Sportwagon is indeed very low and does scrape.

You have to be very careful and yes, I have given thought to going up to standard height. Very low is designed for Autostrada performance not Australian B roads and driveway humps.

All that said the GT is a similar clearance and requires the same care!
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Heli1 on February 07, 2019, 11:39:45 AM
Murray, agree with GTV as my 3.2 Ti scrapes on everything as well. Just have to look ahead and slow down



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Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: alfagtv100 (Biggus) on February 08, 2019, 08:58:05 PM
My 3.2 Ti scrapes.  Tackling obstacles at silly- low speeds may be frustrating, but it helps.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: poohbah on February 09, 2019, 10:59:04 AM
And  s
          i
            d
               e
                  w
                      a
                         y
                            s    whenever possible ;D
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: kaleuclint on February 09, 2019, 02:49:53 PM
1750Tbi engine 159Ti definitely scrapes your average speed hump (unless you slow right down, which is what it's designed to do).  I'm choosy about which entrance I use at the local supermarket; some of the crossovers are more angled than others and are best avoided. 

It's not a ridiculously low car, but care and attention required.  Same goes for not scratching 19" wheels.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Trevor Canobio on February 10, 2019, 02:20:04 PM
My 2012 159 Ti has stopped scraping all above road surface objects for me; the answer was simple. It sits in my driveway looking as sexy as ever; but goes nowhere after dropping it's coolant on the way to Phillip Island. About to go and investigate; I suspect the achilles heel; the water pump. It had a Lance Dixon 4 yr service at 32000km in April 2016; invoice shows new pump and belt kit and all fluids replaced. Now done 40000km.
Any AROCA member have a set of Cam locks I can borrow on a non permanent basis, would be appreciated.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on February 10, 2019, 09:05:01 PM
What makes you think it's the water pump? There is more than one weak point in the 159 cooling system.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: kaleuclint on February 16, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
About to purchase a trolley jack and it'll be a low profile one obviously.

The 1750TBi is regarded as bulletproof, but it certainly has coolant issues:
Bulletproof but maybe not waterproof?
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on February 16, 2019, 03:18:47 PM
Well it does use the same water pump as the 156 and thus has the same weaknesses/limitations.

Have a read of my "Dirty Wheels II" article in the November 2017 edition of the Qld Alfa magazine and you'll see a classic example
of just what can go wrong with these pumps in the 1750TBi engine.

http://www.arocaqld.com/downloads/magazine/psa201711I2TD7KWQ.pdf (http://www.arocaqld.com/downloads/magazine/psa201711I2TD7KWQ.pdf)
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: kaleuclint on July 17, 2019, 05:05:01 PM
Resurrecting this thread as I may have a suspension issue.  With two people in the back the wheel arch gaps have closed right up.  Do I need stiffer springs??  Any experiences / suggestions??

Not looking to go down the suspension makeover (or coilover) route here; just want the ride height when laden to be fixed.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on July 17, 2019, 05:46:09 PM
Unless the springs or lower mounts have cracked (unlikely), your problem will be the rear shocks need replacing.

Springs do not normally "sag", the only time this happens is if the spring breaks somewhere or develops stress cracking, again unlikely.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Pseudonym on July 17, 2019, 05:49:39 PM
159 to springs are known to crack but that's be a drop regardless of laden/unladen.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on July 17, 2019, 06:28:58 PM
I'd get the car taken to your local suspension specialist and get them to throw it up on the hoist for an opinion. You can have a cup of coffee while they take the wheels off. HOWEVER, make sure you get shown what they come up with, just in case they are looking for a little extra work.  ;)
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: kt159 on July 28, 2019, 09:07:44 AM
It's a pity when these posts get side-tracked from the original issue. Regarding the ride height, I also have a 159TBiTi with 34000k's which I love but it needs more road clearance. I live in country Victoria and need be extra vigalant for uneven bitumen roads because I can srape where the butumen has melted a little in the past and beem deformed into a bit of a lump.
I don't want to go down the path of coilovers either, nor do I want to fit spings from a non-Ti version. I have considered spacers - even 25mm or so would probably do.
Can anyone out there advise a simple, inexpensive solution or are we just resigned to risking damage every time we drive these.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: philpot on July 28, 2019, 09:14:41 PM
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 17, 2019, 05:46:09 PM
Unless the springs or lower mounts have cracked (unlikely), your problem will be the rear shocks need replacing.

Springs do not normally "sag", the only time this happens is if the spring breaks somewhere or develops stress cracking, again unlikely.

Sorry Bazz, have to disagree. With 3 x 33 16V's (yes I know a different model) springs do definitely sag with age/use. As owner of three, Alfa mechanics opinion of same (who I bought number three off) and Tim from Squadra Sportiva owning many. Yes, in this model/case, the front springs do sag and lower. Noticably.

But, and this is a big butt, I'm talking about @ 150 plus K.  Not 34k as kt159 is talking about.

kt159, ( and kaleuclint ?) you can either get new springs made up from the original specs of the springs, which will eventually go the same way at similiar age/use; get replacement OE spec new springs, ditto. Or ... aftermarket firmer replacement versions. Honestly, if you're talking about spacers then the whole strut is being pulled apart anyway so, really , ti springs may be the simplest solution to clearance issues in the medium to long term.

But, if that is against your beliefs, then perhaps Poly spring bushes that are thicker/deeper than std/OE are the way to go ...  I do know that with suds/33's the major poly suspension bush manufacturers do provide this very choice ...  Good Luck !
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: V AR 164 on July 28, 2019, 09:57:35 PM
I'm still kinda confused as to how you guys think Ti's are too low.

Here's a pic of my 159 (Right car) with eibach springs on 17's next to a Ti on 19's (Left car).

Mine was considerably lower than the Ti and I never had an issue at all going over speed bumps and dealing with potholes. Even on numerous trips up to Lancefield, Ballarat etc driving on awful backroads with deep potholes and massive rises in the asphalt I never once scraped.

Since fitting 19' Ti wheels it has raised up to standard Ti height and I can fly over speed bumps and such now with no problems at all. I think in the last year I scraped the front once due to a very very tight carpark entrance, even then it was very minor with no visible scratches.

All I'm saying is changing the way you tackle speed bumps and driveways will make you not scrape at all.

Andrew.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on July 28, 2019, 10:30:31 PM
Quote from: philpot on July 28, 2019, 09:14:41 PM
Sorry Bazz, have to disagree. With 3 x 33 16V's (yes I know a different model) springs do definitely sag with age/use. As owner of three, Alfa mechanics opinion of same (who I bought number three off) and Tim from Squadra Sportiva owning many. Yes, in this model/case, the front springs do sag and lower. Noticably.

But, and this is a big butt, I'm talking about @ 150 plus K.  Not 34k as kt159 is talking about.

It's NOT the mileage that is the important difference here, but the quality of the steel. The steel that the original 33 springs were made of was utter crap and over time suffered from sever micro fractures.  (I redirect you to post #17) This was not an uncommon occurrence in the 80s & 90s.

Fortunately the springs on the 159 were made THIS century.   ;)
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Pseudonym on July 29, 2019, 12:24:01 AM
Yeah have heard of that on the 33, that and the shock absorber seized >.<

Eibach 159 springs are rumoured to be a 40mm drop rather than the 30mm of standard Ti (you'd have to ask the AO forums as there's a host of spring threads there) and thinking back to my S13 on HSDs, bodykit and 100mm clearance the 159 is an SUV for ground clearance. True the nose is a bit long and can catch a steep driveway but side by side my 156 JTS Distinctive is lower.

I am running 245/40/19 though so a tiny bit more sidewall than the factory 235s I guess, if you wanted something between Ti and standard 159 springs as Baz said it'd pay to speak to a reputable suspension place as they can ideally hunt down the spring lengths for various brands and look for options. I remember other applications Eibach and Pedders used to offer a few different specs, not too sure on the 159.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Colin Edwards on July 29, 2019, 09:08:54 AM
Hi KT159,
Unless you fit camber / caster adjustment bushes to the front end, raising the front ride height will introduce significant positive camber.  Not good for tyre wear or front end grip. 
Might fitting higher profile (45 or 50) tyres be worth considering? 
Maybe the front dampers have lost a bit of bound performance?  This can cause the suspension to compress a tad more in low speed bump.
What pressures are you running?  I usually ran my 159 3.2 Ti Q4 with 42 front 39 rear.  The tyres contribute a lot to the overall suspension system.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: philpot on July 29, 2019, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: bazzbazz on July 28, 2019, 10:30:31 PM


It's NOT the mileage that is the important difference here, but the quality of the steel. The steel that the original 33 springs were made of was utter crap and over time suffered from sever micro fractures.  (I redirect you to post #17) This was not an uncommon occurrence in the 80s & 90s.

Fortunately the springs on the 159 were made THIS century.   ;)

Hmmm ...even with modern replacement springs, made out of 'THIS century' steel to original specs ?  ie. diameter; laden height; unladen height, number of coils ? Tim tried that path ... Reportedly they were too high to start with, but then 'sagged' with use; back to square one !

Which leads me to the conclusion it's the design parameters of the 16V's springs are the issue. Not the steel suffering micro-bursts  ;)

Pseudonym, yes, have had that happen with my first one ...  after that, both 16V's on road at the moment have Koni Sport Yellow inserts. And H&R replacement spring sets !

Oh, kt159, getting back on task   ::)    IMHO All of Colin's points are on the mark ( and bazzbazzs' #17 too ! ) Re. your stated issue and criteria. Especially the compression/rebound performance of the dampers. Front and rear !
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: kaleuclint on August 01, 2019, 10:37:43 AM
I guess it's hard to define "too low" but I can assure you Andrew that in suburban Melbourne it's very easy to scrape the Ti with stock suspension on undulations in the tarmac, raised gatic doors (finally fixed in New Street Brighton), speed humps and particularly on driveway crossovers.  There is a considerable overhang at the front of course.  Just means driving with a bit of care, also necessitated by 19" wheels.  BTW, the setting for your photo seems familiar -- OTS Point Cook??

My problem is at the rear anyway.  Ride height unladen is fine except for an occasional sound that tells me something is knocking or rubbing on something else.  I'll get Tru Track to cast a professional eye over the issue and I'll report back.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: philpot on August 01, 2019, 10:47:16 PM
Just for reference. Makes interesting reading.

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/597769-springs-on-a-159-ti.html

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/1157410-advice-on-fitting-new-springs-to-159-a.html

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/994137-broken-ti-springs.html

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/957818-159-2-4-ti-rear-springs-replacement.html

https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/638081-159ti-springs.html

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&q=Alfa+romeo+159+sagging+springs+site:www.alfaowner.com&tbm=isch&source=univ&ved=2ahUKEwjF8urZ2eHjAhUC63MBHfa1BDwQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1526&bih=706

Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on August 02, 2019, 12:14:29 AM
Broken springs are different issue with different causes. I personally have never come across a broken spring on a 939 series car here in Australia, nor do I know of anyone who has. (maybe I live a sheltered life, I'm sure someone will pipe up with an experience, please do if you have)

Also just a general point for everyone, always remember one thing to take into account when using information from the Alfaowner UK site - Salted Roads !

Take a look at photos of the underside and suspension of UK Alfas, they are all rust ridden, cracking, crumbling & disintegrating disasters. We are so lucky to live here.

But you are quite correct, does make for very interesting and informative reading, as with all your posts.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: bazzbazz on August 02, 2019, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: kaleuclint on July 17, 2019, 05:05:01 PM
Resurrecting this thread as I may have a suspension issue.  With two people in the back the wheel arch gaps have closed right up.  Do I need stiffer springs??  Any experiences / suggestions??

Something that should have been said at the beginning, your car is designed to take 4 adults with no issues, so no, having 2 people in the back should not cause issues with ride height or bottoming out.

When I first got my 156 Wagon it had the same issue, two people in the back had the tyres scraping the wheel wells every time I went over a bump or round a corner. A new set of shocks and the problem was solved.
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Pseudonym on August 02, 2019, 01:08:48 AM
Quote from: bazzbazz on August 02, 2019, 12:14:29 AM

Take a look at photos of the underside and suspension of UK Alfas, they are all rust ridden, cracking, crumbling & disintegrating disasters. We are so lucky to live here.


Ssshhh. He's lying everyone, it's horrible here don't come, stay in Diesel Island - there's rust everywhere, heaps of tax, nobody forms an orderly line... The sports balls are all elongated....
Title: Re: 159 TI too low
Post by: Colin Edwards on August 02, 2019, 12:51:23 PM
Fair chance corrosion is the culprit.  And fair chance pommie salt accelerates the corrosion.
Likely failure location would be the transition point between bearing coil to first active coil.  That wedge shaped environment would probably concentrate moisture on and about where the paint is eroded from the bearing coil seating surface. 

Do Ti springs feature less metal / lower active coil count than a "standard" spring or is a Ti spring a "standard" spring set shorter?

Colin