MES reports:
"P2414 - Lambda sensor 1 upstream (plausibility)"
("Plausibility"? like it's having a bet each way ... ?)
"P2237 - Lambda 1 sensor upstream (current)"
Question 1:
Does "upstream" refer to one of the "pre-cat" sensors, rather than a "post-cat" sensor?
eLearn provides instructions for replacement of:
"Left Upper" Lambda sensor; also referred to as the "Lambda sensor on the pre-catalyser" ... Note no number;
"Right Upper" Lambda sensor; also referred to as the "Lambda sensor on the pre-catalyser-2" ... Note use of "2"
Question 2:
Does MES's "Lambda sensor 1 upstream" therefore relate to eLearn's "left upper"?
eLearn also has separate diagrams showing the location of the four sensors.
Sensor K015: the "left upper" Lambda sensor
Sensor K016: the "upper right" Lambda sensor
Sensor K017: the "left rear Lambda sensor ... on the catalytic converter"
Sensor K018: the "right rear Lambda sensor ... on the catalytic converter-2"
The use of "rear" seems to be a synonym for "post-cat".
These diagrams also show the location of the relevant connectors indicating that the "uppers" use a wide flat connector, whereas the "rears" use a compact "D" shaped connector.
The use of "left" & "right" coincides with the relevant location of the pairs of sensor connectors on the firewall. While this is useful, they may be named so for a different reason.
Given the above, it seems that I need to replace the unnumbered pre-cat Lambda sensor, I.e. the left upper which according to the diagrams should have a wide flat connector.
BUT!
All images I can find (on the web) of the pre-cat Lambda sensors suggest they they use the "D" shaped connector (which is what my parts supplier has delivered).
Question 3:
If Q1 & Q2 are both "yes", what did I miss?
I bet you don't have this problem with your GTV6!
Not really helpful I know but just trying to convince you to drive your GTV6 more, or sell it to me ;)
Unplug the sensor you suspect it is, and see what further faults are logged.
CB, good idea! Thanks. I will and will report back ... but it may be a day or two.
GTV:
Absolutely correct!
1700+ km in 5 days - who else drives one that much?
You may have a long wait ... ;-)
OK, with all codes cleared:
Disconnected the terminal that I suspect belongs to the errant sensor;
Started the engine - no engine light! Switched off anyway.
Checked for codes again:
P0135 - Preheating resistance 1 above catalyser
Different code but it seems to be pointing to a problem with the same sensor "1 above catalyser" ... ?
Cleared codes again.
Reconnected terminal and disconnected the terminal that eLearn indicates is the one.
Started engine - again no engine light. Switched off.
Checked codes again. This time nothing!
Time to start swapping bits out methinks. Starting with my hunch.
Cheers.
Q1 - Upstream DOES mean pre-cat
Q2 - Facing the engine from the front of the car it should be -
#1 is for the left bank (drivers side - Cylinder 1 & 2)
#2 is for the right bank (passenger side - Cylinder 3 & 4)
But as said, disconnect each sensor and it will show up on MES and confirm.
It will most likely be the connector pins not making good contact, as you unplug/replug the connect it changes the contact fit.
May I suggest unplugging the connector and using a pair of forceps or fine needle nose pliers twisting the male pins in the plug slightly so that when plugged back in the female pins, they will be a tighter fit.
If the problem persists or returns at a later date replace the Lamba Sensor and its plug.
Sildenafil pliers (blue handles) are perfect for this type of older connection issue...
Aah yes; the small ones with a lozenge-shaped handle. ;)
Could everyone PLEASE Google Sildenafil pliers and see what comes up . . . .PLEASE! ;)
(It does involve tools, but not the ones you'd think)
;D ;D ;D
Thank you all.
I'll try the "tweaking" trick before I swap sensors, but maybe not with the recommended tool!
I have tried tweaking terminals when attempting to bring the oil temperature gauge back to life - to no avail :-(
Bazz, I don't like to challenge a respected and acknowledged guru, but the eLearn diagrams indicate that left and right refer to the car's sidedness, not our handedness as we poke about under the bonnet :-( But this may also be the cause of the apparent contradiction in eLearn ?
Cheers :-)
Attached are the page from eLearn and a photo of the area where the lambda connectors reside.
eLearn indicates the target is third from left, but it has the wrong type of connector :-(
I am referring to what MES indicates, not what eLearn is indicating.
MES refers to Lambda Sensor 1 & 2, as said before, Sensor 1 is for cylinders 1 & 2 and Sensor 2 is for cylinders 3 & 4.
Upstream is the Pre-Cat Sensor, downstream is the Post-Car Sensor.
So if you have a fault with Upstream Sensor 1, as you face the engine from the front it is the Sensor on the left Header before the Cat.
If you have an error with Downstream Sensor 2, it is the right hand header Sensor after the cat.
As for which is the correct plug on the firewall, just follow the loom back from the indicated sensor.
Many thanks for the clarification Bazz.
It seems I have been focussing on the wrong target :-(
Update:
Background:
Subject: 4 cylinder, 2.2l JTS motor
Error: P2414
Cause: potentially dodgy Lambda sensor
Lessons learned:
Topology:
! there are two heat shields covering the exhaust and catalytic converters between the engine and the firewall.
! there are two catalytic converters (cats) nestled beside the motor, in a plane parallel to the motor's longitudinal axis.
! the exhaust manifold pairs cylinders 1 & 4 and separately cylinders 2 & 3;
Each pair (bank) leads to a single catalytic converter
! Convention decrees that the bank that cylinder 1 flows into, is "Bank 1"
The cat in Bank 1 is therefore Cat 1.
! For this engine (others may be different!) Cat 1 is fed by Cylinders 1 & 4
The corollary is that Cylinders 2 & 3 feed into Bank 2 & Cat 2.
! Cat 1 is spacially closer to Cylinder 4 and the left side or the car!
(Cat 2 is closer to Cylinder 1 and the right side of the car)
! there are four Lambda sensors, one at the head of each cat (pre-cat Lambda sensor) and one at the tail of each cat (post-cat Lambda sensor)
! pre-cat sensors and post-cat sensors are different (and utilise different types of connectors!)
! three of the Lambda sensors can be (relatively) easily attacked from underneath the car/engine, but one is best dealt with from above.
The challenge:
! P2414 relates to Bank 1 / Sensor 1. I.e. the pre cat Lambda sensor on Cat 1
! This, of course, is the most difficult to access!
! eLearn says (I paraphrase) Unclip the sensor cables & Remove the sensor. However, it's a bit more involved ...
! The pre cat Lambda sensor on Cat 1 requires removal of the top heat shield and, at least, the loosening of the second (lower) heat shield - so that it can be pushed aside. It can't be removed without removal of the Lambda sensor first! Catch 22 ?
Channeling eLearn: the Lambda sensor can now be removed! (I used a crows foot socket on the end of a series of short wobble bars - to get around some corners).
Then, all that should be required is to pop the new one in, reassemble it all, and test.
But the problems have not yet gone away!
After some unrepeated (spurious?) errors, the new issues being reported were an occasional, but consistent, P0300 & P0302 (ignition failure) with a rarer P1175.
btw: A compression test confirms even pressures across the four cylinders.
160 psi dry and 185 psi wet +/- a couple of psi.
New spark plugs and cleaning all the coil contacts made a little difference - maybe just a reduced occurrence of the issue - but still frustratingly frequent.
However, the improvement was more likely due to the repair of a small crack in the bellows between the AFM and the throttle body! The repair is effective, but temporary, while a new one wings it's way from O/S.
So, as it wasn't a plug causing the P030x, the coil pack was the next suspect.
(It's a four coil rail, so you can't swap individual coils - to test for a dud - the whole rail has to be swapped!)
The replacement coil pack made a little difference! Or was it imagination ...
Still P0300 & P0302 (ignition failure) with a rarer P1175.
Symptoms now include running a little rough when cold, and some slight hesitation at low to mid range rpm. Otherwise the engine light occasionally flashes (it does not stay on permanently) most often when the engine is under load and at low to mid rpm. When it clears its throat it still spins and pulls nicely.
So, are the injectors the next in line for attention, or is it possibly something altogether different?
When was the last time you put some injector cleaner through the tank?
About the same time that the plugs were replaced.
But when all's said and done that was probably only about 100km back down the road.
Well P1175 is sometimes a fault with the Cam Timing Sensor, which would explain the occasional rough idling, hesitation & engine light occasionally flashing. The engine light flashing is the clue here, if it were a mixture or air leak problem the light would just come on.
Would also explain the misfires (P0300 & P0302 (ignition failure)
Disconnect the Cam Timing Sensor and see if it forces a P1175 error. Also try giving the Cam Timing Sensor a good clean as well as its plug & see if anything changes.
Will do. Thanks Bazz.
Today was the day for the crank angle sensor to get some attention, and just as well it did!
I have read about the difficulties some have with the blue locking tab and being able to release the connector ... This one however presented a different challenge! The locking tab and the catch, it seems had previously been broken off, so the connector had been "silasticked" back on!!!
So the sensor was removed, with cable attached, to enable it and the connector to be separated. Having cleaned it all, including the connector as another temporary measure, I'm on the hunt for a new connector! btw, while the CAS is Bosch, the connector is not! Otherwise it might have been easy. Other than that, the whole assembly looked in good nick.
With the CAS disconnected, the car won't start. The error generated is P0335 (RPM sensor).
All back together, it's still throwing P0300, P0302 & P1175s but it's running pretty well - despite it all!
Tomorrow, the cam timing sensor(s) might get some attention ...
You can get "SuperSeal" type connectors at Autobarn, Jaycar etc, and the housing can be unpicked/replaced leaving the terminals uncut.
Thanks CB,
I spent some time endeavouring to modify a Toyota connector today. Initially it looked pretty close, but after extensive modification it still just isn't quite right.
I'll have a look at Autobarn and Jaycar, but I've found a local "connector specialist" who says he might have something for me on Monday ... Here's hoping.
Quote from: ACE on December 07, 2018, 07:25:31 PM
Today was the day for the crank angle sensor to get some attention, and just as well it did!
I have read about the difficulties some have with the blue locking tab and being able to release the connector ... This one however presented a different challenge! The locking tab and the catch, it seems had previously been broken off, so the connector had been "silasticked" back on!!!
So the sensor was removed, with cable attached, to enable it and the connector to be separated. Having cleaned it all, including the connector as another temporary measure, I'm on the hunt for a new connector! btw, while the CAS is Bosch, the connector is not! Otherwise it might have been easy. Other than that, the whole assembly looked in good nick.
With the CAS disconnected, the car won't start. The error generated is P0335 (RPM sensor).
All back together, it's still throwing P0300, P0302 & P1175s but it's running pretty well - despite it all!
Tomorrow, the cam timing sensor(s) might get some attention ...
If you check I did say to do all that with the Camshaft Timing Sensor NOT the Crank Angle Sensor.
Disconnected the Cam Timing Sensor - inlet (CTSi):
Runs rough; Engine Management Light (EML) on permanently; P0365 - Timing Sensor (intake)
Removed CTSi, cleaned sensor & connector on cable (physical & electronics spray); replaced; reconnected;
Still runs rough at low RPM; EML flashing; P0300 & P0302 (my old friends!)
CTS exhaust (CTSe):
Removed, cleaned, replaced, but not reconnected;
Runs rough; EML on permanently; P0340 - Timing Sensor (exhaust)
Reconnected CTSe:
Rough, no EML, no codes (but only short duration with engine running)
SWAPPED sensors (same part number)
Runs rough; EML flashing occasionally; P0300 & P0302
NB: none of the above included driving the vehicle - just starting, running for a minute or two then switching off.
Injectors?
Ahhhhh - cam timing sensor Inlet/Cam timing sensor outlet ???? Huh? ???
You're not referring to the two cigar shaped items with plugs at the top that are in the top of the engine behind each cam pulley?
One with a grey plug, the other with a black one?
Nope!
The Cam Timing Sensors at the rear (cylinder #4 end) of the engine.
Not the Cam Variator Solenoids at the front end of the engine.
Been there done that!
Ok, cool, just checking, sometimes people get the two mixed up.
You seem to have run down "the usual suspects", time to think laterally. Have you tried disconnecting the MAF and taking it for a drive? Just to see if there is a change whether it is better or worse.
The reason I ask this is that after cleaning the Cam Sensors you reported -
"Reconnected CTSe: Rough, no EML, no codes (but only short duration with engine running)"
You may be suffering for more than one item having an issue. Just a thought.
Other than that it could very well be injectors. You said you had added injector cleaner, it may be worth while that after cleaning the cam sensors and clearing the taking it for an "Italian Tune up".
Sorry I can't e of more help . . . . my "Swami Senses" don't work as well at this range. ;)
Sportiva,
are you possibly referring to a 2l JTS or twin spark?
This problematic machina is the 2.2 litre GM based JTS.
and back to Bazz,
I have not tried disconnecting the MAF - maybe tomorrow?
I took it for a "tune up" run this arvo - about 50 km. It's pretty warm here today too!
Apart from a brief glimmer from the EML, it was all good!
UNTIL I had to duck into the shops ...
On restarting it was EML FULL ON!
"OK, so let's see what MES sez"
BUT the PC had overheated in the boot! Just can't tke a trick!
Still waiting to see what it was ...
The PC has recovered and reports that yesterday's excursion resulted in
P1175, P0300 & P0302
Nothing new there, but I suspect it might have been the P1175 that caused the EML to stay on.
Today I disconnected the Air Flow Meter (AFM) - there does not appear to be a "MAF" but I suspect that they are synonymous?
Anyway on restarting: very rough at idle and a smell of raw fuel!!! ?
Lots of warnings on the dash - ASR, VDC, hill holder, and you guessed it "Check engine" with EML on permanently! Switched off and checked codes:
P0100 - Air Flow Meter
P0564 - Cruise activation control
But no others!
Took it for a short drive (with AFM still disconnected) ...
EML on immediately and lots of warnings flashed on the dash. Including the "low fuel" light and a zero reading on the fuel gauge! (Tank was at least half full!)
Errors: P0110 (AFM), P0564 (Cruise), P0110 (Air temp) but no P0300, P0302 or P1175!
Reconnected the AFM.
Restarted and fuel gauge reports that fuel does in fact exist!
EML only seems to report occasionally now, a couple of flashes when at low revs (idle or getting underway) - hesitation or stumbling. But when moving it's happy to accelerate hard or run at high revs with out complaint!
I (want to) think it's getting better ...
Maybe the injector cleaner (it got another dose yesterday) is having an effect?
Time to take it for a decent run ...
Can you borrow another ECU kit off someone?
Quote from: ACE on December 09, 2018, 07:34:25 PM
EML on immediately and lots of warnings flashed on the dash. Including the "low fuel" light and a zero reading on the fuel gauge! (Tank was at least half full!)
BINGO! Those are the tell tale signs of a faulty connection to one of the injectors or a problem in the injector loom. (Zero reading on fuel gauge & cruise control error & VDC)
1/ Disconnect Battery
2/ Remove each Fuel Injector connector, clean and insure is a tight fit when reconnecting
3/ Remove both large connectors to Engine ECU And clean and refit a couple of times to endure good contact.
4/ Reconnect Battery and clear all errors
5/ Test drive.
CB: no, I only know of V6s in these parts :-(
Thanks Bazz,
My reading suggests that to access the injectors, all of the air inlet plumbing - AFM to inlet manifold - needs to be removed.
That being the case I'd prefer to take the injectors off and get them serviced while they are easily accessible.
Being just before Xmas, I doubt I'd get them back for a while though.
But I'll give it a shot.
Bazz - the injector and coil drivers never fault?
Ok, just for now then disconnect battery and clean connectors on the Engine ECU plus the connectors to each Ignition coil instead and see what happens.
The exact symptoms you currently describe I had happen in a clients 159 2.2 JTS Selespeed. Cured it by cleaning as above.
If doing so does not cure, then fault will be at the injector loom connections or injector themselves. With luck by cleaning the ECU & Coil connections and allowing the Injector cleaner to do its work will relieve you having to go after the Injector side of things.
Coil pack was replaced last week.
Had a mate with me yesterday, so we went for a test run with him watching MES while we were on the move.
The EML flashed at start up and while getting moving. MES reported the usual story.
Cleared these codes while on the run, to see what else comes up.
After that the only instance of an error was as I drove over a small hill on a main road - I lifted off the throttle as we crested the hill (to maintain 80 kmph), as the engine went into overrun, the EML flickered again (P1175 only, from memory). After that no more codes on that run!
Until the next time I started the engine ...
I have now cleaned the ECU terminals, but yet to take it for another run.
Hoping someone can help ... (I can't post a picture tho - it's too big!)
What is the trick to release the fuel rail?
It's a cast aluminium thingy that sits between the "plenum" and the head.
I suspect it is just friction on the injectors that is resisting my efforts but I don't want to force it too hard ...
DONE!
What device are you trying to post a picture from?
Answering my own question ... (and remembering that the object is to remove the fuel injectors ...)
First an image of the engine with the plenum more or less still in place ...
Image with plenum removed.
Things to note:
the shiny thingy behind the black connection tubes is the fuel rail, which is bolted to the head.
It acts as a face plate to the head while fuel is delivered via a channel below the ports.
The rail is attached to the head with a number of Torx bolts and two studs. The studs are top right and top left - just visible with nuts still in place.
To remove the fuel rail, remove all torx bolts and the two nuts on the studs (you also need to disconnect fuel lines and the ignition harness!)
Then, gently prise the rail evenly away from the head - and the important bit - making sure that the trajectory of the rail is parallel with the studs.
The injectors are below the air ports but their main axis is also parallel with the studs.
Image with fuel rail removed.
The two locating studs are clearly visible in this shot.
And off to the injector specialist ...
QED!
Or as my Latin speaking father would have said "Quite Easily Done!"
Each of the injectors appears to have a four digit code.
Q1
Is the ECU aware of codes for individual injectors?
alternatively, Q2
Is there an ECU parameter where the individual flow rate for each injector can be recorded - thereby possibly allowing fine adjustment to the opening times for each individual injector?
Q1 - No, that's only for Diesel Injectors. No codes for the Petrol units
Q2 - Not adjustable via normal methods or normal maintenance software.
Perhaps the ECU just needs a good birching, to stimulate flow of electrons into forgotten areas?
Time to commence the reassembly then!
Thanks all :-)
Fingers crossed. ;)
Assembly completed on Saturday.
Took it for a run (approx 100km) on Sunday.
No EML and no error codes, during or on return :D
Since the original appearance of the EMLs a Lambda sensor, the spark plugs and the coil pack were all replaced (possibly unnecessarily?) The injectors were also removed and serviced.
A surprise was the amount of "gunk" in the inlet ports and coated on the backs of the valves in the head. As much as possible of this was removed while it was exposed - it alone must surely have been affecting efficiency!
Anyway, job done. And it is running very nicely.
The next chapter has commenced already ...
The clutch dumped all of its fluid two blocks from home :(
Quote from: ACE on December 17, 2018, 08:15:57 AM
A surprise was the amount of "gunk" in the inlet ports and coated on the backs of the valves in the head. As much as possible of this was removed while it was exposed - it alone must surely have been affecting efficiency!
That's pretty standard on almost all direct injection engines with a few kms on them. That's what the various brands of Upper Engine Cleaners are for.
https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/liqui-moly-liqui-moly-petrol-engine-intake-decarb---366g/348781.html (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/liqui-moly-liqui-moly-petrol-engine-intake-decarb---366g/348781.html)
Quote from: ACE on December 17, 2018, 08:15:57 AM
The next chapter has commenced already ...
The clutch dumped all of its fluid two blocks from home
Time to put ACE on suicide watch I reckon. ::)
QuoteThat's pretty standard on almost all direct injection engines with a few kms on them.
Walnut shell basting of Prince inlet tracts, anybody? ::)
To reiterate a question I had - the ECU is not one where driver transistors for the injectors or coils become faulty?
Here's the schnizz:
Quote from: Citroënbender on December 17, 2018, 09:08:21 AM
To reiterate a question I had - the ECU is not one where driver transistors for the injectors or coils become faulty?
No, The Engine ECU unit in the 159 2.2JTS is pretty reliable. Never known of one to have problems with the Driver FETs. (Field Effet Transistor)
I had P0013 and P0014 a while back. Got caught out in Horsham, but found an MB mechanic who cleared it and said something about the solenoid.
Seems to have been fairly smooth since (this was back in January). However, just yesterday the engine light comes on again.
The timing chain was done at 52,000 kms. It now has 73,000kms on the clock – I assume it would last longer than this?
So, solenoid or sensor perhaps?
Solenoids.
P0016 is the usual code for the chains if I remember correctly.
Quote from: bazzbazz on February 22, 2021, 09:08:25 AM
Solenoids.
P0016 is the usual code for the chains if I remember correctly.
Thanks, I appreciate you putting my mind at ease!
Quote from: ACE on October 31, 2018, 01:58:49 PM
MES reports:
"P2414 - Lambda sensor 1 upstream (plausibility)"
("Plausibility"? like it's having a bet each way ... ?)
"P2237 - Lambda 1 sensor upstream (current)"
Question 1:
Does "upstream" refer to one of the "pre-cat" sensors, rather than a "post-cat" sensor?
eLearn provides instructions for replacement of:
"Left Upper" Lambda sensor; also referred to as the "Lambda sensor on the pre-catalyser" ... Note no number;
"Right Upper" Lambda sensor; also referred to as the "Lambda sensor on the pre-catalyser-2" ... Note use of "2"
Question 2:
Does MES's "Lambda sensor 1 upstream" therefore relate to eLearn's "left upper"?
eLearn also has separate diagrams showing the location of the four sensors.
Sensor K015: the "left upper" Lambda sensor
Sensor K016: the "upper right" Lambda sensor
Sensor K017: the "left rear Lambda sensor ... on the catalytic converter"
Sensor K018: the "right rear Lambda sensor ... on the catalytic converter-2"
The use of "rear" seems to be a synonym for "post-cat".
These diagrams also show the location of the relevant connectors indicating that the "uppers" use a wide flat connector, whereas the "rears" use a compact "D" shaped connector.
The use of "left" & "right" coincides with the relevant location of the pairs of sensor connectors on the firewall. While this is useful, they may be named so for a different reason.
Given the above, it seems that I need to replace the unnumbered pre-cat Lambda sensor, I.e. the left upper which according to the diagrams should have a wide flat connector.
BUT!
All images I can find (on the web) of the pre-cat Lambda sensors suggest they they use the "D" shaped connector (which is what my parts supplier has delivered).
Question 3:
If Q1 & Q2 are both "yes", what did I miss?
I continue to have intermittent lambda failures myself, clearing, then re-appearing.
However, with my sports - cat, the leads - down stream lambdas are pretty short and need extending. But temporarily they are kept clear of the prop shaft with tie wraps.
Whilst trying to get my head around this and lambdas in general I did a fair bit of reading.
Now this may be old hat to some, but it states the outer sleeving, covering the lambda wiring must not become trapped/restricted. "Reference air/oxygen" is drawn into the Lambda via the sleeving and to restrict it will cause errors/failure.
This will be checked on Friday at the same time as the leads are extended.