So - I've owned this car for 12 years but it's been off the road for 4 ... a friend borrowed it and broke something in the gearbox (I think, can't recall). Anyway it has been sitting outside, unloved, and it's reached the point where I either need to fix it up or move it on, otherwise there won't be a car to make a decision about any more.
Engine is basically sound, gearbox needs a fix, and the plan is to find a good painter to do it from bare metal. Unsure whether to take out the engine, finding storage would be a challenge and the paint inside the engine bay is fine.
Obviously I need to cut and replace the mud trap on the right front wing, otherwise just a few little crunches at the headlight margins and one on the rear.
I've never done anything remotely like this before. Got a mate who is an experienced Alfa mechanic but would appreciate any advice and insights. I'm not a huge fan of red cars but for simplicity's sake and historical correctness I plan to keep it in factory colours (including the 1984-only "gunmetal lower body" look).
Engine will need new fuel hoses and all that stuff - any tasteful upgrades / fixes I should be looking at? Was considering one of the electronic ignition kits I saw on the Highwood Alfa website.
(https://i.imgur.com/LwyIWvD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5J3S7QI.jpg)
It should already have an electronic ignition.
Duh, as soon as I read that I thought oh yeah, it does!
I think you first of all need to establish a budget and work out what you want from the car . Is it going to be a daily driver again , a weekend car or something better than that. If it is going to be anything other than the later. I would be concentrating on getting the mechanicals working so it is drivable / possibly saleable .
Not wanting to hurt anyone's feeling but on the strength of a few photo's and none of the interior the car is hard to establish its worth , but let's say probably > $10,000. If your not handy and your mate doesn't work for nothing it would be easy enough to spend $5 k getting it going and registered . Paint is going to cost anywhere from $3 K to $30 K depending on what you ask and what you want to hear. Would it then be worth < $20,000. I'm not so sure. There may well be some sentimental value we don't know about. Very easy to get carried away with the romance of fixing an old car but if you don't have the skills and only the chequebook you would be better off quitting early sell the car and buy someone's else's efforts who has already been through the process. Just an opinion.
PS : As for" a world of pain", I remember once asking my wife what she wanted for her birthday . Her response was, Spend till it hurts . Know what you are getting yourself in for.
PPS : As it happens I have a very low pain threshold on those sorts of things.
Along the lines of prior comment, the question to be most bluntly asked is "Would you spend $30000 on yourself in the next two years otherwise?".
I'm fairly anti-car show these days, not to eschew the restoration process but greatly emphasise the idea of car pleasure coming from using it, not showing it to people. For this reason I will generally advocate working out whether you're prepared to invest the time and money in making something to own, to use and enjoy.
If you did restore the car, would you add a new shed or garage to keep it in? Should a $35K structure be your actual first priority?
Overlooked in many restoration projects is proper planning, this can involve gophering, lots of test fitting, detailed cleaning and refurbishment of subassemblies, standing your ground when rework or further refinements are needed, and multilingual resourcing. And above all, making sure works are sequenced correctly.
"Been sitting outside for four years"
"Finding storage would be a challenge"
Okay.....
1. Get a set of jumper leads and see if you can get the engine running (after cursory checks for oil, water, fuel, brakes, etc)
2. When you can't, check the body carefully for signs of rust. They rust from the inside out. Any little bubbling on the surface denotes and iceberg of corrosion inside.
3. After identifying all the rust, walk away and buy your wife/GF something amazing.
4. Reconsider budget, love, sentimental value of above car
Was this chassis Galvanised, I thought the late ones were, in which case it might not be as bad as it could/will be??
Thanks for your blunt assessments - these things are easy to get carried away with, I know!
Before it went off the road it was running OK, but had a lot of niggles like a weak alternator, starter motor sticking, etc. It had also had an engine "overhaul" (incl cylinder hone, rings etc) which I put in quotes because I moved interstate before the job was finished, when I got it from the shipping company the valve clearances were all over the shop. That got partially remedied but it was never quite up to snuff. Then it was stolen, which involved the driver's door lock being broken and the steering column being broken as well (to get at the ignition). With the paint faded and many other things going on, it was easier to let it sit. And then my (Alfa experienced) friend borrowed it because he didn't have a car, drove it for a couple of months and then something went in the gearbox, I don't recall at the moment.
So basically the engine has a decent bottom end, the clearances need to be done properly, the gearbox is great and smooth apart from the broken element (which my friend will make good) and it needs the steering column replaced properly. However it drove well and was a blast to drive, it just looked sad and wasn't the most reliable.
So my thinking is, friend and I will strip the interior (mostly good except maybe the door cards) and the glass (call a windscreen place to get the windscreen removed?), I'll get a replacement driver's side mudtrap panel welded in and the corners beside the headlights straightened, and get it in for paint - I'm guessing a decent job will be around $8k. Only other rust spot on the body is the tailgate below the rear windshield in one corner. I don't know if it's galvanised but that level of rust suggests it might be. Interior is in good condition albeit a little faded - don't think it needs replacing.
As for having a place to garage it, I have a few options and will also invest in a decent car cover if it needs to be outside for a bit. I'd be happy to daily drive it I think.
I'm guessing it'd be worth $12-15k in good condition, and I bought it for $3.5k so I'm thinking $10k to bring it back is not unreasonable. I've owned Alfas for 20 years so I know at least some of what I'm in for, I've just never had a car painted before. My own ability tops out at stuff like replacing cam cover gaskets and alternators, replacing a crank sensor, that kind of stuff. And I know my way around wiring.
I have seen those cars where the while hatch thing is rusting. I doubt with a full strip you are going to spend less than $50,000. You may save some money if you are wanting to sand it back yourself. My 2c
For what it's worth - I should have added some smiley faces
I say go for it if you want (most restored Alfas were basket cases once, the rest are lipstick pigs or Unicorns)
Just be aware that there WILL be rust that you can't see and it will be expensive to repair correctly
ie.. repaired so it doesn't return to bubble under your shiny new paint (see Cherry, my GTJunior)
My own story of pain - I bought my GTV for $4k three years ago. Like yours, a long list of mechanical work had supposedly been done, so I was thinking for another $5k to spruce up the body (which was straight, fairly rust free but just needing a refresher) I would have a pretty flash ride.
Three years later, the bodywork is still on the list of things to do as I've had to spend a lot more than the purchase price on mechanical work including overhauling the gearbox (I'm not skilled enough to do more than pretty basic stuff).
But it is now a bloody good driver and fantastic fun, and I can't imagine getting rid of it. Eventually I'll get around to the paint (and a few other things). Luckily prices are on the rise so I think I bought at the bottom.
So as others have suggested - start with getting it roadworthy first, and then you can at least enjoy it while you plan out future work campaigns.
Ohh and have talk to these guys:
http://www.extremebodyrepairs.com.au/m/classic.html
Being a GTV owner, that's a scary pic of the inside rear quarter, Oz...
Quote from: Australia on May 14, 2018, 05:13:35 PMI doubt with a full strip you are going to spend less than $50,000.
FIFTY GRAND for paint? Does anyone else concur? I am planning to get some quotes and if it's over ten I will sell the car, I like it a lot but I'm not an idiot.
Entirely depends on how much metalwork/fabrication is needed. Have a poke around and get a feel for how much rot there is - sills, inside rear quarter panels, rear hatch, roof (if you have a sunroof), inside front quarters.
I don't concur with $50,000 for a respray, rather than a full restoration which obviously wouldn't be justified given the end value. You might easily spend $10,000 painting it with a bit of rust, and assuming you strip and reassemble it. Given the prices of a few (rare) very good ones for sale recently, I wouln't personally think it was worth spending that on it, but each to their own.
Oh - including bodywork etc. I'm moderately confident that the front right wing and the spot on the rear hatch are the only rust zones - I had a 33 and believe me I am familiar with the rust habits of 80s Alfas. My only concern is the right rear - as you can see from the first pic there has been some bodywork there, or at least respraying, and I am not sure how much filler there might be / hidden rust perhaps. The only places I think might hide rust are the sills. And there are also slight cracks in the doors where the window frame joins the body of the door.
When I get a good spot to work on it, I will go over it carefully and make an honest account of what's likely to be problematic.
I believe the real "pick of the litter" GTV longer term will either be a debugged early car or a swansong edition. Either would sport a factory V6 manual drivetrain without mods and be bone stock inside. Use the 205GTi as a yardstick, all the souped up, turbocharged or caged cars are worth less than a minter or lightly restored "matching numbers" build.
So if one is cynically talking about "worth it" in terms of open market retained value, they are the aspirational points. Anything else is - to a greater or lesser degree - personal indulgence. Which is fine in my book providing it's acknowledged thus.
Final comment from me (I hope!) re the $10K limit: Not achievable.
$50,000 for a full strip and restore is not unreasonable from what I have heard. Including interior.
If the paint were in very good nick and there are no mechanicals to be done, then you could get away with $7,000-$10,000 with a trim and windows out. Thats 'my' experience. I would replace all window rubbers at the very least. However there is already evidence of rust that needs to be taken care of.
Get a magnet and check the hip-line along the base of the rear side windows, especially where the skinny upright joins the body. A favourite location for secret bog-cicles.
The magnet can be a very mood-deflating tool...
Hi Matty
My two bobs worth is get the car roadworthy first, meaning rust repair (cut out and weld in replacement panels, then undercoat/prime them only) and carry essential mechanical repairs that includes brakes, clutch and cooling systems. Once registered and on the road, then carry out a freshen up of the entire vehicle, that includes full body respray and external trims. This would be a much cheaper option and should fit within you $10K budget. One word of advice based on long term sitting out in the weather is to check and double check for corrosion in particular the usual problem areas (mud traps), such as lower guards, sills, floor and windscreen (the magnet tip is useful for detecting dodgy repairs). Finally a simple plan for all this work.
Just start by getting it roadworthy - doesn't have to be pretty to be enjoyed. Someone else posted this link a couple of years back but its still valid evidence: vimeo.com/149232132 (http://vimeo.com/149232132)
This is all great advice - thank you. Roadworthy adds so much flexibility in terms of options, then panels, then paint if it's all worthwhile. Good thinking and some useful clarity thanks.
Poohbah - great clip thanks. Worth remembering what it's all about!
Out of interest sake - what/where in the transmission did it go bang? Is it usual worn 2nd gear synchro or something more substantial?
The planetary gear in the diff busted in mine. That was a transaxle-out job.
So long since it happened I have forgotten. I'll report back when I find out. Not a synchro though, I think it was a show stopper.
I look forward to hearing how things pan out.
And looky here:
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=3892.0
Quote from: MattK on May 14, 2018, 10:12:49 AM
Was considering one of the electronic ignition kits I saw on the Highwood Alfa website.
Quote from: rowan_bris on May 14, 2018, 10:29:52 AM
It should already have an electronic ignition.
Keep in mind that the Alfa electronic ignition is just electronic (solid state) switching of the ignition coil. The actual ignition advance curve is based on a purely mechanical mechanism.
I fitted one of the elctronic ignition kits to my '81 - it still had mechanical points. I assume by '84 they were no longer fitted?
Quote from: poohbah on May 17, 2018, 12:36:55 PM
I fitted one of the elctronic ignition kits to my '81 - it still had mechanical points. I assume by '84 they were no longer fitted?
I had the old Jaycar/Siliconchip magazine electronic ignition system in my '80 Giulietta.
The points were used to provide a switching signal to the electronics with a large transistor doing all of the heavy lifting (so to speak). The point's contact surfaces last much much longer because there is bugger all current passing thru them with the electronic ignition. Tho the rubbing surface of the points would still wear.
The next step along would be to have a hall effect or optical trigger and suitable disc.
Advance curve was still controlled by the distributor's weights and springs.
Tho in this day and age, a proper 3 dimensonal programmable system would give the best overal results and be tunable to suit any changes made to the engine and better match the fuel you intend to use.
I reckon it'd be great to have another carby fed Alfa and do that along with some typical head, cam and carby upgrades.
Update #1: a can of fuel, some carb cleaner, a battery, an hour and a half, got it started. Drove a couple of blocks to put it in my driveway. Felt good to hear the engine kick over, I can tell you.
Gearbox looking less terrifying than I thought - apparently the driveshaft yoke nut is loose, not a broken part as I thought. Also discovered my mate has about four parts Alfettas and GTVs, so things are looking up somewhat.
Great to hear Matt, you are well on your way.
watch 50 times you tube
buy a compressor and a good gun
and p[aint $1000 total respray
didnt get it right try again its fun ( so im told)
Don't tempt me!!
Looks OK in the morning sun, at least.
(https://i.imgur.com/84ug4hG.jpg)
Given you have the two-tone duco, you can probably get away with patching the rusty section in front of the door and just repainting that area (is it grey or black) and buffing the rest of the paintwork - you might be surprised at how well it comes up.
I guess, although the paint varies across the car (clear coat on just the driver's side front wing?) and it's through to the primer on the roof in a couple of places. The lower part of the body is metallic charcoal grey. Any recommendations for a wax and/or polish to stabilise chalky red paint?
I'd go into your nearest auto-parts supplier and ask what might be best suited to your circumstance - Its as much to do with elbow grease.
Zymöl Royale Glaze.
I'll just nip down to Supercheap Auto and pick up a ... wait a minute.
For what its worth, I refurbished my rear triangle vents and front scuttle vents by removing them, sanding them, and then painting them with black "bumper" paint from a rattle can.
Nice - thanks! I am wondering if I should finish flaking the black paint off the window brightwork, which is chrome underneath from the pre-facelift era, or if that would look too weird. The bumpers I presume I will paint at the same time as the lower body.
Tas UV smashes everything. Acrylic spray paint included. And once the surface no longer excludes penetration by water droplets (dew or rain) the frost and growths hook in. It's brutal on any car finish with compromised integrity.
I'd suggest some basic id'ing of the existing finish types; that will (or should) guide any moves toward repair or conservation.
The window trims are metal and will need correct stripping, priming and painting - or powdercoating. The rear vents and scuttle vents are just plastic, so "flexible" bumper paint is fine.
That's a 1K finish though; it can be bettered (per my comments about the special local issues of durability) with a flexibilised 2K blend.
Yep, I was just looking for a quick fix and I already had the paint in the shed! Originally these vents had a raw plastic finish which was really ratty and faded after 35 years, so it was a big improvement.
Quote from: MattK on May 14, 2018, 07:28:07 PM
This is all great advice - thank you. Roadworthy adds so much flexibility in terms of options, then panels, then paint if it's all worthwhile. Good thinking and some useful clarity thanks.
Matty
Before getting to far ahead with the paint finish, maybe look at getting it roadworthy first. I don't think that any kind of elbow grease and compounds/buffing will bring back the lustre you are expecting, as it appear the clear coat has deteriorated beyond repair.
Quite right, and I am not expecting anything much. My motive is a little simpler - I am living in a rented apartment and having moved this unregistered car into my offroad parking space, I want to avoid the landlord seeing it as a junk heap and telling me to get rid of it. So looking better cared for is a bit of insurance.
QuoteI want to avoid the landlord seeing it as a junk heap
In that case Matt, how prepared are you to have a go at something cheap and cheerful that some might consider heresy?
There's a mail-order mob called Colour Dip n Peel (Qld I think) who sell DIY liquid vinyl wrap - I've seen them at car shows spraying it on a Ferrari as a demo. I think a matte finish costs circa $250-300 (plus freight) for enough to do your whole car. You can spend more to get a gloss finish. Basically you just need a decent spray gun/compressor, and somewhere sheltered to do it.
And if you cock it up, you should be able to peel it off and try again. As I understand it, it is quite a bit different to "plasti dips" which have a pretty bad rap.
Obviously its not a substitute for a proper resto or respray, but I can see the appeal of a cheap freshen up or short-term colour change. Lots of baseball cap wearers seem to do it, but I haven't seen anyone try it on something like an Alfetta, so it would be an interesting experiment.
www.facebook.com/COLOURDIPNPEEL/ (http://www.facebook.com/COLOURDIPNPEEL/)
Now please don't hurl too much abuse at me...
It's a cute idea, but what I want is to buy some time cheaply now, and put proper paint on it when the car is up to scratch otherwise ...
Cool idea though.
Since I have polished cars multiple times, I thought I'd chip in my two cents.
From what I can see, the paint isn't bad at all, just buff it, you will be surprised at how good it will come up. My 164Q had god awful paint on the roof when I bought it. The clear coat wasn't peeling, but had gone 'cloudy' and turned into a matte white finish.
Firstly, wash the car properly, make sure to get into all the door sills and little vents/flutes on the body. Run your hand over the paint, and if it is rough (I expect it would be), run a clay bar over it: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Bowden-s-Own-Fine-Clay-Bar-2-Pack/323488
Buy a decent dual action polisher, such as this: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Rockwell-ShopSeries-Car-Polisher-Multi-Function-180mm-600-Watt/344537
These are more expensive than the typical rotary style polishers, but are MUCH MUCH safer to use for the novice and drastically reduce the possibility of getting swirl marks or even worse, burning through the paint. The included foam pad isn't bad either, it's a very fine pad, and only takes off a small amount of paint at a time, again, meaning it is quite safe to use.
As for polishes/ compounds, for bad oxidized paint, I personally use Meguiar's Ultimate Compound: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Meguiar-s-Ultimate-Compound-450mL/214309
This will remove the oxidation as it is quite aggressive, but again, I have never damaged my paintwork with it.
To finish off a compounded car, I use Meguiar's Ultimate Liquid Polish: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Meguiar-s-Ultimate-Liquid-Polish-473mL/295147
This removes the 'haze' generated by the compound, and leaves the paintwork with a deep rich shine.
Finally, to protect the paint, Bowdens is my favorite brand. Their Carnauba wax is awesome! The water beading is incredible from a wax, and lasts me up to 6 months: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Bowden-s-Own-Auto-Body-Wax-500mL/323485
After every wash, I like to also use the Bowdens Fully Slick spray wax, I have found it builds up on the existing Carnauba wax, and protects it by building another layer of protectant, thus increasing the life of the body wax: http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Bowden-s-Own-Fully-Slick-Detailer-750mL/415553
You don't need every product listed, but just use this as a general idea of what products you may need, and cater them to your circumstance.
I have probably gone a bit overboard with this post, but I've been there and done that and my paintwork is pretty shiny, so hope it helps :)
(https://i.imgur.com/wM7xlRm.jpg)
Cheers, Andrew.
Wow. Stunningly helpful. Thank you so much! Amazing 164 too.
Great write up Andrew. You car appears to be testament to your growing expertise.
Beautiful work that!
On a more humble note I bought some clay and detailing liquid, and that buffer Andrew recommended. I skipped the cutting stage because I have quite a bit of primer showing through the roof paint, but I did a fairly thorough polish. The clay was weird but I got the hang of it pretty quickly, and the polishing brought a pretty decent shine up. I washed it again and I might wax it tomorrow if my wallet can stand more punishment. I'd give the result about 7 out of 10 - a solid improvement on the 2 out of 10 it started with. Also gave a few things a clean in the interior. Currently apart from a couple of surface rust spots, the only proper rust I can find is the panel behind the wheel, a 3 inch section at the base of the driver's window, and what I suspect might be a similar problem just starting in the behind-wheel panel on the other side.
You'll be back on the road in no time Matt. Once she's driveable you'll be more relaxed about taking your time, and you'll be able to have some fun along the way. I'd be interested to see a pic of her now you've given her a polish.
Well said! Hope I can find the time to work on it.
Got some wax on - I'd give it a solid 7 (photographs a bit better than it looks). Dang thing wouldn't turn over when I tried it this afternoon, might need an overnight charge on the battery ...
(https://i.imgur.com/NwYcog9.jpg)
Quote from: V AR 164 on May 23, 2018, 11:37:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/wM7xlRm.jpg)
Cheers, Andrew.
Dayum! 8) 8) 8) 8)
That's 1 good looking 164! They can be made to look sooooooooooo good with the right wheels and ride height!
Such a shame we never got the Q4, I'd have 1 of those and make it look this good.
Nice work Matt, well worth the effort.