Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 160 Series (90, 75, 164 Sedans) => Topic started by: V AR 164 on October 28, 2017, 05:45:00 PM

Title: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 28, 2017, 05:45:00 PM
Hi all,

......

Last night I was on the freeway cruising home when I noticed the car developed a missfire. At first I thought nothing of it because it has happened a few times before.

But, usually it would disappear after a few more mins of driving but this one persisted.

So got it home and went out today to figure out if I could fix it.

Pulled the spark plugs out and to my surprise, the rear middle cylinders plug was completely destroyed with what I can only describe as build up.

All others were fine except this one. So I went out and bought a new set, put them in and the missfire continued.

I have now noticed it blows white smoke and when I pulled out the new middle rear plug, it was a bit oily.

I'm going to borrow a compression tester tomorrow to most likely confirm my suspicion that it is a piston ring that has destroyed itself.

Can these parts be bought and would it require the motor to be pulled out?

Still trying to hope that it's not serious :/

(http://i.imgur.com/LplQsCt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/LplQsCt)

Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: poohbah on October 28, 2017, 08:15:03 PM
I don't know if this helps Andrew. Fingers crossed its not a major engine out job required.

Top right might apply - sandy coloured deposits. (Straight out of my GTV Haynes manual).

And also top left in the bottom pic, given the new plug came out oily. Both pics suggest worn valve guides maybe?
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on October 28, 2017, 08:30:45 PM
I'd see that as more likely a head gasket issue. Looks a bit like crystallised antifreeze.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 28, 2017, 08:37:41 PM
Thanks for the replies,

Poohbah that does indeed help, maybe it could just be a worn valve stem seal letting oil into the cylinder and not sealing properly, causing it not to ignite the fuel/air mix properly.

Citroenbender that could also be very possible. I have had a look in the coolant overflow tank and haven't seen any oil residue though and likewise with coolant in the oil.

Going to take it to my mechanic tomorrow and will let you guys know on the outcome.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bteoh on October 28, 2017, 10:21:05 PM
I have a 1991 164 12v and I am having a similiar issue with no 2 cylinder but mine was just very oily. I measured the resistance on the no 2 spark plug cable and it was registering about 4400 ohms. Apparently it should be around 2500 ohm. I am changing the spark plug well seals as there was also a bit of oil in the spark plug well. Previously, I was using NGK BP6E plugs. Have just got a set of B5ES and will try that. Hopefully it might fix the miss-fire issue.
Cheers
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: poohbah on October 28, 2017, 10:38:00 PM
Andrew, further to Brian's suggestion re spark plug seals:

Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 29, 2017, 04:08:14 PM
Thanks guys,

Well some good and bad news.

Firstly I did a compression test today, and I was actually pretty pleased with the results. All cylinders measured dead on 150psi EXCEPT the one with the missfire.

The test showed 0psi  :o

I bought a usb inspection camera and had a look into the cylinder which revealed a piston in very good condition with no 'scratch' marks on the cylinder wall.

I then put oil into the cylinder and re-tested it. Again I got a reading of 0psi. Thank God!!!

This (should) mean the piston rings are still in good condition, however the valves are not so happy.

Going to bring it over to my mechanic to fix it, hopefully it is just a valve that went bad or the stem seals. Going to replace all the stem seals while I'm at it too. Also, should I drive it the 5 min trip or book a tow truck?

I'll keep you all posted.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 29, 2017, 04:17:19 PM
Quote from: bteoh on October 28, 2017, 10:21:05 PM
I have a 1991 164 12v and I am having a similiar issue with no 2 cylinder but mine was just very oily. I measured the resistance on the no 2 spark plug cable and it was registering about 4400 ohms. Apparently it should be around 2500 ohm. I am changing the spark plug well seals as there was also a bit of oil in the spark plug well. Previously, I was using NGK BP6E plugs. Have just got a set of B5ES and will try that. Hopefully it might fix the miss-fire issue.
Cheers

I highly recommend you check the coolant temperature sensor. I had a missfire issue that I was battling for months until I changed the connector and all my issues were solved. I replaced mine with a BOSCH EV1 Injector Connector and it fixed it.

Andrew
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on October 29, 2017, 07:19:13 PM
I'd drive it, provided a torch down the plug hole shows no debris or impact damage.

Also, quite possibly I'd be looking for an in-situ repair if the motor and subframe have never been out. Although it's a bit more fiddly in some ways, you'll disturb less peripheral stuff.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: poohbah on October 29, 2017, 10:25:55 PM
Andrew, one tip I'd suggest for future. I'm sure you'd find similar service with with RACV as I have with RACWA - I bought a classics membership (from memory it cost about $80 more than standard/year). Aside from the usual roadside assistance services, it entitles me to an unlimited number of free tows (on flat bed truck) within 100km radius.  Really only need to use it once a year and its paid its way. Last three years I reckon i've used it at least twice a year - for me its handy as the workshop I use is about 30km from my home. Normal membership only entitles free towing only for first 10km and is limited to I think one or two a year.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on October 30, 2017, 12:42:13 AM
Quote from: V AR 164 on October 29, 2017, 04:08:14 PM
hopefully it is just a valve that went bad or the stem seals. Going to replace all the stem seals while I'm at it too. Also, should I drive it the 5 min trip or book a tow truck?

Valve stem seals do not affect compression. Their only job is to stop oil seeping down the valve stem into the cylinder. The valve head on it's seat is what seals the combustion chamber.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on October 30, 2017, 06:12:49 AM
Hi Andrew
Agree with Mick, worn valve stem seals would not give low or zero compression. With the compression test conducted using the oil and still no compression suggests bent valve or damaged valve seat.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on October 30, 2017, 06:44:49 AM
The 12V motors never spit a pushrod or chew off a cam lobe? Just asking; by looking at the valve train design I'd wondered if either was known to happen.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Al Campbell on October 30, 2017, 01:39:11 PM
Would it perhaps be a slipped cam belt?
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Al Campbell on October 30, 2017, 01:42:53 PM
And as a complete side issue, do you know that these cars run OK at low revs with the AFM unplugged? Until you plant your foot, then you get the mother of all misfires.    :-[

Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 30, 2017, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: Mick A on October 30, 2017, 12:42:13 AM
Valve stem seals do not affect compression. Their only job is to stop oil seeping down the valve stem into the cylinder. The valve head on it's seat is what seals the combustion chamber.

Ahh ok, thanks Mick for clearing that up for me.

Quote from: bonno on October 30, 2017, 06:12:49 AM
Hi Andrew
Agree with Mick, worn valve stem seals would not give low or zero compression. With the compression test conducted using the oil and still no compression suggests bent valve or damaged valve seat.

Yeah I agree, but even then a damaged valve seat should read at least a couple psi? When I did the test, I couldn't even hear the piston trying to compress anything, it's like a valve is completely missing.

Quote from: Citroënbender on October 30, 2017, 06:44:49 AM
The 12V motors never spit a pushrod or chew off a cam lobe? Just asking; by looking at the valve train design I'd wondered if either was known to happen.

Not sure, although if it were a cam lobe that's sheared off, wouldn't it still have compression as the valves would be stuck closed?

Also when it initially started to misfire, there was no weird noises or anything.

Quote from: Al Campbell on October 30, 2017, 01:39:11 PM
Would it perhaps be a slipped cam belt?

Could also be the issue however it still drives fine on the 5 cylinders.

And yes I also know about the afm. I've discovered that when it is unplugged for the first few mins, it runs like a dog, but then it actually idles out smoothly and if your gentle on the throttle, it can actually be driven normally.

Also excuse me if I say anything silly, still learning!

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: four90s on October 30, 2017, 08:56:21 PM
Hi Andrew,

Yes they do wear cam lobes out. It took me ages to work it out when I had an issue (also in a 164 12v).

Would only run on 5 and the inlet for that cylinder got hot.

Swapped injectors and ignitions and checked fuel flow and and...

Finally bit the bullet and took the cam cover off (the rear one of course) and I had about 4mm clearance on the exhaust valve. The inlet was fine.

Swapped a cam from a 2.5 parts motor and all good. Had to swap out the bucket as well, as the top of that was severely scalloped. Didn't change anything else.

Cheers
Steve
Adelaide
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 30, 2017, 10:04:40 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info, I need to replace the valve cover gaskets anyway so I'll take them off tomorrow and have a look.

If it is the cam that's bad, can it be reprofiled or regrinded? Reason being is that I believe these cams are aftermarket as the car has a lumpy idle that I have not ever heard in another 164Q, and I wouldn't replace them with standard Q cams.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on October 30, 2017, 10:31:30 PM
The V6 does sometimes break exhaust valve rockers, but not usually on 164's as they are reinforced and stronger.

I'd say you've probably burnt out a valve, that's just an educated guess, but of course without seeing it, it's just a guess! Looking forward to hearing what you find to be the problem.

Mick.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: four90s on October 31, 2017, 10:42:16 AM
I should have added that I tested compressions as well and they were all good and roughly the same, as it was only the exhaust lobe that failed.

Good luck with the cam if it's an aftermarket one. You might be able to get it built up and then re-ground. I know of places here that do that sort of thing, so there must be similar shops in Melbourne. Maybe talk to Vin Sharp

When cams fail it's usually (in my experience) a little bit of something that scores the wear face on the cam and eventually the case hardening wears through. Once that happens the remaining non case hardened material wears rapidly against the other surface and time to find another cam.

I did a few when I worked on Mercedes. Had a six cylinder SOHC one once I think had all lobes with wear. Not sure how it still ran.

Steve
Adelaide
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 31, 2017, 01:07:17 PM
Steve, you may be onto something.

Just drove it into the garage and opened the bonnet. Felt the chrome intake runner on the missfiring cylinder and it was definitely much hotter than all the other runners.

About to take everything apart, I'll report back within a few hours. Also, what should I be looking for when I take the valve cover off? Do I need to check camshaft clearances or will it be pretty obvious if something isn't right?

If all checks out ok with the cam, I agree with Mick that it's probably a burnt valve.

Thanks alot guys!
Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 31, 2017, 02:46:05 PM
Figured it out,

It is indeed a burnt valve. I took off the intake runner to cylinder no.2 and luckily the intake valve was open. This allowed for me to put the usb camera in there and found out the exhaust valve had been burnt away right next to the spark plug.

Going to get my mechanic to take the heads off and send them away to get properly restored. Won't be a cheap fix but I want to fix it completely and not just replace one valve and hope the others will survive.

While I'm at it, it's gonna get all new gaskets from the head up.

Attached are some pictures, at least it wasn't the rings!!!

(http://i.imgur.com/5eobIfX.jpg) (http://imgur.com/5eobIfX)

(http://i.imgur.com/0d3H3WF.jpg) (http://imgur.com/0d3H3WF)

(http://i.imgur.com/QtdVKkN.jpg) (http://imgur.com/QtdVKkN)

(http://i.imgur.com/canuPm1.jpg) (http://imgur.com/canuPm1)

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bteoh on October 31, 2017, 04:52:16 PM
Hi Andrew,
Glad you found the problem. Are you going to pull the heads off with engine in-situ to change the valve or remove the engine altogether and do a rebuild?
I am trying to figure out what to do with my other 164 that has broken a timing belt. Remove the heads and fix it with engine in or remove the whole engine and do a rebuild?
Let us know your progress and hope you get it back on the road soon.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on October 31, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Hi Andrew
Due to the need to pull off the head to do the job, my recommendation is to recondition both heads now if you plan on retaining the car. Quite a difference in price depending on what you want done, but will be the most economical option in the long term, than just to replace burnt valve. But on the other hand if you want versus the need to carry out a complete engine rebuild then that is another story and this depends on what the budget will allow, will be the deciding factor.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 31, 2017, 05:52:38 PM
Hi bteoh,

Not sure but I really don't want the motor to come out. As Citroenbender said, it would disturb too much. However, if your motor has bent valves, maybe the crankshaft could be out of balance and the big end bearings out of round? I would take the motor out and get everything checked over, but the cost would be a lot. Maybe you could look at a second hand motor and simply do a straight swap. 164's are cheap enough now to consider this option.

I am very tempted to attempt this job myself, but am put off by what can go wrong if I don't get something right. I would love to learn as I have all the necessary manuals and pdf's, but there is just something telling me not to do it.

Has anyone done a head gasket on a 3ltr and is it that difficult? Any tips and tricks?

Bonno, yes I am wanting to get both heads reconditioned at the minimum. If I'm going through all this trouble, might as well do it properly. Budget is definitely something I need to consider, which is another reason why I want to do it myself. If I can minimise labour costs, I then could possibly squeeze to get the heads reconditioned.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bteoh on October 31, 2017, 06:46:29 PM
Andrew quoted :-
"Not sure but I really don't want the motor to come out. As Citroenbender said, it would disturb too much. However, if your motor has bent valves, maybe the crankshaft could be out of balance and the big end bearings out of round? I would take the motor out and get everything checked over, but the cost would be a lot. Maybe you could look at a second hand motor and simply do a straight swap. 164's are cheap enough now to consider this option."

I did buy another running 164 just for this purpose and that was the original plan. Like you, I have never pulled an engine out of a 164, so wasn't sure how difficult a job it might be. On the Alfa Bulletin Board in the US, some members have apparently said it isn't too difficult .........

Hope yours gets sorted soon.....
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on October 31, 2017, 08:01:31 PM
I'd only advocate a "topical" or "spot repair" on a simple, accessible motor. The sheer effort and expense of what is necessary whether one services a single valve or a whole bank, is my reason for that idea.

Either way, I'd assume liner clamps are good practice and these are something else to make early in the piece or borrow a set of.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on October 31, 2017, 08:23:19 PM
I made small triangles with a hole in the centre for a head bolt/stud and a dab of MIG to create a "half dome" approx. 3-5mm across on each corner. Two of the corners press on adjacent liner edges and the third registers on the deck between bores. At the ends, one half dome out of the three isn't used.  Depending on the head fixing, the holding bolt or stud length is taken up by a cut length of 20×20 SHS pushing onto the triangular plate.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on October 31, 2017, 08:29:04 PM
Thanks guys, really appreciate the support.

Just cracked open my workshop manuals and it doesn't seem too difficult. The main thing I'm nervous about is the timing of the motor. I'm assuming you set it to TDC with all cam marks and flywheel marks lining up?

I have also read about those clamps. I've saw someone made a set out of pvc pipe and big washers, and I would plan to do the same.

So essentially is this the very simplified rundown?
-Make sure it's at TDC
-Remove plenum and valve covers
-Double check timing
-Remove timing belt
-Remove cam 'caps'
-Take off cam gears
-Remove cams
-Crack loose head nuts
-Remove nuts
-Lift off the head
-Use the compressors on the liners to stop linear movement of liners and compromising seals

Pretty much it?

I would more than likely send the heads away to be refreshed completely, just to make sure it doesn't happen again anytime soon. Even if it costs a pretty penny, I think it's worth it.

Bteoh, I have a complete workshop manual showing every step needed to remove the engine, if you want I can send you pictures of the pages to your email.

Regarding removing the heads with the engine in the car, it is possible yeah? Of course the burnt valve is on the rear bank of cylinders. Hopefully I won't need to drop the motor.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bteoh on November 02, 2017, 05:32:16 PM
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the offer but I do have a copy of the car disc for the 164. I am still toying with the idea of removing the heads to see the extent of damage. I presume you have to remove the false firewall to gain more access to the rear bank of cylinders?
I shall follow the progress of yours and see how it goes.
Cheers
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 02, 2017, 06:37:26 PM
Sounds good.

I have the mechanic coming over tonight, and if he can't make time to fix it within the next few weeks, I'll pull the car into the garage this weekend and start working on it.

Yes the false firewall needs to come out plus many other bits and pieces.

I am actually thinking on making several YouTube videos outlining the process I will go through step by step, maybe that will be of use to you? That's if I will do the work myself of course.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 02, 2017, 07:19:35 PM
At the risk of sounding a BOF, why not line up all your ducks before starting? Get the bolts, VRS kit, coin for a full refresh of both heads, all set aside then hook into it. In the meantime pull the injector plug off for that cylinder and put a dummy load on it.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 02, 2017, 09:40:51 PM
Quote from: Citroënbender on November 02, 2017, 07:19:35 PM
At the risk of sounding a BOF, why not line up all your ducks before starting? Get the bolts, VRS kit, coin for a full refresh of both heads, all set aside then hook into it. In the meantime pull the injector plug off for that cylinder and put a dummy load on it.

I agree, but I have garage space so if the car was sitting for a while, it wouldn't matter.

My mechanic really doesn't want to do the job, plus he is busy for a while, so I am going to do it myself.

I think I may just pull the whole motor and fix it out of the car. As well as this, I can address my leaking rear main seal.

Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 02, 2017, 10:56:37 PM
An immobile car can be a big demotivator, plus there's risk of scope creep. You don't need impossible timelines like those TV reno shows, but a keen sense of "Let's get this back on the road" to be ever-present.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Doug Gould on November 03, 2017, 12:06:31 PM
In my opinion, CAMS / borescopes are of little value unless you are practiced using them. I tried looking down some aircraft cylinders that were removed from the engine and what I thought via the cam compared with what I saw down the open end were 2 different things. What you think are score marks on the bore could be oil streaks.

Go back to basics.
1. Is there any sign of water in the oil?
2. Is there any bubbling in the radiator when you rev the engine
3. Maybe get a exhaust gas test done on the radiator.
4. Repeat the compression test, but do it dry then add oil which should help tell if its the rings or valves.
5. Maybe pull the rocker cover off and see if there is anything that is interfering with the valve operation (eg broken exhaust rocker that is jamming the exhaust valve open)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: carlo rossi on November 04, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
broken valve spring is my guess '
just enough to keep it out of trouble
but stuffed
heads off
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 04, 2017, 09:39:14 PM
Hi experts out there.

Read back a page through his posts. He has already found the problem, and taken photos of the burnt out valve.

He's a good kid who has the right idea, and I hope he learns a lot by doing this work himself and after he will have a lot of pride when he drives his car again.

Mick.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 04, 2017, 11:03:41 PM
I'm taking a conservative approach rather than cheering on a full-tilt repair operation because I have possibly trodden a similar path. 

There are so many facets to workshop repairs, that one quickly takes for granted; from tools and fixtures to an experienced person looking over your shoulder and (hopefully) letting you know before it goes south. As a young, enthusiastic classic car DIY'er well before the internet came to be, I was - to be perfectly honest - taken advantage of by far too many people. Overcharged, underserviced, lied to, items returned damaged. (The silver lining in this, is I've developed a lifelong belief that people should do honest work which then deserves fair pay.)  But no way in hell would I want to see anyone else learn the same hard lessons, that's vindictive - there are better ways to gain useful knowledge, hone your skills and get back on the road faster.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 04, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
I understand your point.

I may be the only person following this thread who has actually spoken with Andrew on the phone about his car, because he called our workshop to get some advice.

I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with him, and gave him some realistic options of which way he can take on this repair. Not just in the work he does pulling the heads off, but what we do with the heads once they are off the engine, because as I'm sure you will know, you can simply replace a valve, lap it back in by hand, and for all its intended purposes  it'll work just fine. Or you can go all out and reco the heads, resurface, crack test, vacuum test etc etc. Of course there are huge differences in prices that go along with the amount of work. Is there a performance gain in doing this? Of course... but is it going to be noticeable to him in the way he is going to be using the car? Probably not. More accurately, the hp gain for the $$$$ spent, with an old set of piston rings and liners, may not be worth it.

I've given him our honest and informed opinion on what will suit his needs, while keeping a reasonable budget in mind.
So he is well informed and it is now up to him which way he decides to go with this.

Either way he will have support and advice on hand if he needs it.

Mick.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 05, 2017, 11:20:03 AM
Mentoring like that is a great help. Hopefully it will keep the project focused and moving well.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 05, 2017, 08:41:38 PM
Thanks Mick for the support.

Yes Citroenbender I also do understand your point, but I am very keen to learn and double and triple my work to make sure I have done it correctly. And if I am unsure, I will post here my questions.

So far, I have spent today 'tearing down' the engine bay, removing everything necessary. To be honest, so far it is pretty easy and straightforward. Yes there are some tricky situations, but a little practical thinking goes along way.

Currently onto removing the rear manifold which is indeed tricky with the limited space, then I'm ready to remove the timing belt and take off the head bolts.

I have lined up the crank pulley with the timing mark on the pulley itself and the casting in the block, but are there any timing marks on the cams? Took the valve covers off quickly before and couldn't see any marks, I probably have overlooked them.

Again thank you for everyone for your input!
Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 06, 2017, 08:56:47 PM
Day 2:

Now I understand how much work is involved in doing something like this. It's not as simple as just removing the false firewall and away you go. A lot of small things like the gear linkage grt in the way of the rear manifold, for example, which take up a lot of time.

Just got done taking off the first head, and had my first glimpse into the motor, it looks alright, can definitely do with a clean up to get rid of all the grime buildup. Also made some liner hold downs with square washers and pvc pipe.

Pulling the first head was actually pretty easy, it wasn't too stuck to the motor and with a bit of persuasion it came off.

And yes, there are timing marks on the camshafts which line up every second rotation of the crank.

Should also add, I'm not removing the motor due to a lot more work involved and the rear main seal can wait for a couple more months, it's only weaping ever so slightly.

Here are a few pics:

(http://i.imgur.com/iw4JtPj.jpg) (http://imgur.com/iw4JtPj)

(http://i.imgur.com/m6aDNt3.jpg) (http://imgur.com/m6aDNt3)

(http://i.imgur.com/Ls0AQlq.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Ls0AQlq)

(http://i.imgur.com/liMeEbC.jpg) (http://imgur.com/liMeEbC)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 06, 2017, 09:45:11 PM
Hopefully you've got a spare car to use. Catching public transport with cast iron cylinder heads, to get to a machine shop 27km away, is something I remember vividly.

Identify your oil feeds from block to the heads, and make sure they are plugged before debris can enter. You can buy grab kits of combination plugs/caps in rubber and they're often handy when doing the bulk cleaning.

Don't mix up your cam sprockets, if they are similar but not identical!
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 06, 2017, 10:24:23 PM
Quote from: Citroënbender on November 06, 2017, 09:45:11 PM
Hopefully you've got a spare car to use. Catching public transport with cast iron cylinder heads, to get to a machine shop 27km away, is something I remember vividly.

Now that is something I would like to see! That's called determination right there haha. Luckily I have my automatic 164 that I can drive in the meantime or my dads 4x4.

Good tip on the oil feeds, I will definitely plug them up before I start the cleaning work.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: four90s on November 07, 2017, 09:21:04 AM
Andrew if you haven't worked it out yet, you will need to slacken off the rear engine mount and carefully jack up the rear of the engine otherwise the head won't go past the bodywork where the reaction arm mounts.

Also need to disconnect the reaction arm so the engine can lift up.

Cheers
Steve
Adelaide
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: poohbah on November 07, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
QuoteHopefully you've got a spare car to use

CB - you obviously aren't aware of Andrew's full history - he appears to own half the 164s in Victoria ... ;D
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 07, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: poohbah on November 07, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
CB - you obviously aren't aware of Andrew's full history - he appears to own half the 164s in Victoria ... ;D

Hahaha, yes that's true  ;D

Steve you are correct. Finally got the 'stuck' head off the block after many hours or persuasion and indeed the motor needs to be tilted forward to clear the top motor mount.

About to attempt that now.

(http://i.imgur.com/8gSTO3b.jpg) (http://imgur.com/8gSTO3b)

And the metal rail is covered by a soft thick microfiber towel, so it won't damage the cylinder head or the block

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 07, 2017, 02:37:33 PM
Done  8)

(http://i.imgur.com/epKlUQM.jpg) (http://imgur.com/epKlUQM)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 07, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
Let the cleaning of removed parts, begin! :D

Are the Dayco belts directional? Years back many timing belts had direction arrows on them, they were always set so the writing went the same way as the arrows.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 07, 2017, 03:01:34 PM
Yup, gonna roll the car outside, thoroughly cover up the engine and important bits and start cleaning.

Flipped the head over and it was a burnt exhaust valve indeed:

(http://i.imgur.com/Xiv015b.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Xiv015b)

Not sure if it is directional, gonna replace it anyway while I'm at it.

Cheers, Andrew
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on November 07, 2017, 03:47:56 PM
Hi Andrew
The burnt valve looks quite nasty and it appears it has been in this condition for quite a while (possibly initial misfire symtom).  Due to budget restraints, it may be worth just replacing burnt valve, valve stem seals, decoat and relap the valves versus full recondition the heads on pricing. Speak with your local cylinder head/engine specialist before you commit.
cheers
bonno
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bteoh on November 07, 2017, 07:38:28 PM
Hi Andrew,
Good work and you have inspired  me to do the same on mine (Broken timing belt).
Let us know your progress , and lots of pictures.
Cheers
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 07, 2017, 08:14:10 PM
Nice work! :)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 09, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
Re the starter, can't get bits off Gold Lion or Woodauto?

The latter do a complete replacement (https://www.woodauto.com/product/STR50432) but I would suspect there's a lot of overlap with other models of starter, just not documented properly.
Title: Alfa Romeo 164 QV starter motor
Post by: VeeSix on November 09, 2017, 01:59:22 PM
Hello Andrew

I have really good used starter motors in stock, $99.00 plus $19.80 freight

Payment can be made via direct deposit or PayPal

david.tracey75@bigpond.com

Thankyou David VeeSix OO-V-OO 🍀
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 26, 2017, 04:28:17 PM
Any progress on this one, or has life been getting in the way?
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 26, 2017, 04:40:55 PM
Hi all,

My bad, should have posted earlier but have been flat out with work lately and haven't really had much spare time.

Yes progress has been made since my last post. Got the heads back on Thursday and been slowly working on putting everything back together.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZEb1xdA.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ZEb1xdA)

New gaskets arrived too and seem to be of very high quality so I don't see any issues further down the track.

(http://i.imgur.com/Xd7VtGc.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Xd7VtGc)

(http://i.imgur.com/ipgclJF.jpg) (http://imgur.com/ipgclJF)

Bought a torque wrench too and torqued up the head bolts to 90nm referenced in my workshop manual.

(http://i.imgur.com/YztC4M6.jpg) (http://imgur.com/YztC4M6)

So far I have installed my new timing belt and successfully rotated the engine by hand around 10 times with no issues at all.

(http://i.imgur.com/fOdP7jA.jpg) (http://imgur.com/fOdP7jA)

I managed to source a really good second hand starter motor locally which I cleaned up and installed a couple weeks ago.

Just been cleaning/replacing everything as I go along, like new injector connectors as mine were perished, as well as various sensors etc.

Hopefully I will have the car running within the next few days, I'll keep you all updated.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 26, 2017, 04:44:07 PM
I'm surprised at the 90Nm torque.  Would have thought it were angular.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on November 26, 2017, 09:00:56 PM
Hi Andrew
The torque figure of 90Nm/66Ftlb applied to your head bolts differs to Centreline torque chart for 164 series engines 75Ftlb/101Nm (refer to attachment). Additionally the angular torque gauge applies for some engines, but I would be utlizing strictly what is specified in the workshop manual. The use of angular gauge incorporates stretch of bolt under reaching an applicable torque value.
Regards
bonno
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 27, 2017, 01:13:04 AM
Hi Andrew,

What you have done is perfectly fine.

You will not have any problems with the torque you've done them up to.

Just give them a check and re-torque after around 1000km.

Nice job mate.

Mick

Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 27, 2017, 01:13:55 AM
Quote from: Citroënbender on November 26, 2017, 04:44:07 PM
I'm surprised at the 90Nm torque.  Would have thought it were angular.

Only with one-time-use head bolts, not with head studs which is what his engine has.

Cheers.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 27, 2017, 06:24:18 PM
Yes I will tighten them up after the first few drives.

Glad to say that the car did start and does indeed run, however, I noticed that the timing belt was not running 'smoothly' and was vibrating up the top in-between the cam gears.

I turned it off and had a look and found that the belt was not sitting right in the gear:

(http://i.imgur.com/t2FD13G.jpg) (http://imgur.com/t2FD13G)

Definitely not right and was wondering what I should do to fix it?

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 27, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
Not ideal! This is a SOHC or DOHC motor?
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 27, 2017, 07:39:13 PM
It's a single cam motor.

Pretty sure there is too much slack between the cam gears. I am going to slacken off the tensioner tomorrow and try to move the belt over one tooth on the left cam so there is more tension between the gears. Then the tensioner can take up the additional slack on the one tooth. The picture is of the right cam gear.

I think this is the right thing to do as if I pull the belt to the right on the picture, I can make the teeth slot in correctly, meaning there is not enough tension.

I believe it's the right thing to do? Hopefully that makes sense.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on November 27, 2017, 07:59:27 PM
Hi Andrew
Yes it sounds and looks like the tensioner has not been adjusted correctly. I would go thru the process of resetting the timing marks and attach belt per the manual, paying particular attention to the tensioner is functioning correctly by turning the engine by hand several revolutions to see timing marks line up and no slackness in the belt. Once this is done you should be ready to fire it back up.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 27, 2017, 08:14:30 PM
I don't think it's a tooth out, if one or both sprockets are bolted to a hub boss, you just need to make sure the cams are locked in place, then loosen the sprocket fixing bolts. Counterhold the sprocket while re-tightening.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 27, 2017, 09:31:16 PM
Thanks guys for the input!

Yes I have come to the conclusion to take off the valve covers and check timing marks, then re align everything and install the timing belt again. Just a pain as the plenum has to come off as well as all the timing covers which are a pain to access.

I will definitely be coming to Spettacolo with the 164, even if it involves staying up all night the day before! Come and say hi, always down for a chat  :)

Going to upload a video of the first start and run, was scary at first because I had a couple ignition leads switched around.

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: LukeC on November 27, 2017, 10:28:51 PM
There is a special tool that you need to do the job correctly (that is if the engine has the original type detensioner). It is a simple stepped pin. You install it into the unit to set the tension. I will make one and tomorrow and overnight it to you with instructions.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 28, 2017, 02:39:00 PM
SOLVED!!

Probably one of the stupidest mistakes I have ever made. Indeed it was the tensioner, but it was my fault.

Initially when I took the belt off, I loosened the two 13mm bolts that adjust the tensioner, moved it out of the way then tighten both bolts down.

Fast forward 3 weeks, I completely forgot these bolts existed and just adjusted the oil mechanical part of the tensioner.

After reading through the workshop manual, it said to 'tighten the two bolts'. Ahhhhh, it clicked. I forgot these existed, when I loosened them it immediately placed more tension on the belt. Set the oil tensioner settings, cranked the motor and it was solved!

A small mistake on my part which luckily didn't cause any damage to the motor.

Nevertheless, I will never forget these bolts again!

Thanks, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Citroënbender on November 28, 2017, 05:42:42 PM
Good catch. Glad it was a quick and easy solution.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: LukeC on November 28, 2017, 07:24:13 PM
Nevertheless, I will explain how this thing works and the correct procedure in setting it up for anyone interested (and why the procedure is critical).

I whipped up a tool this morning (through the fog of jetlag from flying back from France) to send to Andrew, but he seemed confident to solve the issue.

You first have to understand the device: It is actually a tensioner/detensioner! There is a hydraulic piston operated by engine oil pressure and three springs. Number 1 spring is a compression spring and sits behind the cast piece and is there only for the initial setting up. Number 2 spring is a compression spring internal in above the hydraulic piston (below the aluminium cap). Number 3 is a relatively weak tension spring acting on the steel lever (and is covered by a black plastic sleeve).

The set-up pin (pictured with a workshop sketch) is shown below. It is inserted into the unit as shown to compress spring 2 to a pre-set amount (normally before the unit is fitted back to the engine as it should be re-kitted when belt changes are performed. The unit is mounted on the engine and rotated so spring 1 is compressed and unit withdrawn with nuts nipped up (and belt can be fitted). The belt is fitted with all the timing marks in the right places. The nuts are then loosened so that spring 1 can act on the unit and place some tension on the belt.

This part is critical: The engine must be turned at least two full cycles (4 rotations) slowly and ensuring that the engine does not turn backwards at all. When the engine is back at TDC (this position we know the cams will maintain a static position), and the timing marks all lined up, the two nuts are now tightened. Spring 1's job is over! Now the pin is withdrawn and spring 2 can act through the piston and add more tension to the belt. At this time, the engine can be safely be turned anticlockwise safely (if you wanted to).

When the engine starts, idles and stops: i.e. oil pressure is low, the pressure from spring 2 maintains high belt tension. This is because of the cams tend to flip/flop over their lobes and without this tension the belt may jump a tooth (remember, this was early cambelt design and the teeth were not as aggressive as later engines). As the engine revs climb, so does oil pressure and the piston withdraws and reduces the tension on the belt. Now, only spring 3 is applying tension to the belt. High tension is not required as cam inertia will overcome the tendency to flip/flop as with low engine speeds.

The other thing to remember, is the engines do not stop dead when turned off. They will often do a revolution or two, come up against a compression stroke and rotate backwards a bit. This extra tension added at low oil pressure times guards against this.

The stepped pin set-up is necessary to ensure the relationship between the hydraulic piston high tension at low engine speeds transition to low tension is correct. One may get is right without, but there is only on way to make sure it is perfect as Mr Alfa wanted.

Complex: yes. Old fashioned: yes. Better ways now: yes (like the mechanical tensioner available)... But so Italian!

Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: LukeC on November 28, 2017, 07:27:39 PM
The tool (under 10 minutes on a lathe starting with a 10 mm bolt - LOBO of course!):
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 28, 2017, 09:07:01 PM
Thank you for the detailed description of how the tensioner works, definitely learnt something!

Again thanks for going through the trouble to even make a tool! However I am confident I have everything under control. Took the car out for a drive tonight, being careful to watch temps and not to rev the motor unnecessarily. Happy to report that everything is running fine with no issues at all.

There are no oil or coolant leaks and no cross contamination in the oil or coolant, which means the head gasket is installed correctly.

I have to say, the car is completely different to drive. I have found it to be much smoother and actually sound different as well. It has got a lower note to the exhaust and seems to idle more calmly than before. Overall I'm very happy with the end result.

Thank you everyone for contributing to the thread and helping me along the process, time to go out and enjoy the car.

See you all at Spettacolo!

Cheers, Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: V AR 164 on November 28, 2017, 09:12:22 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/wV2W0o2.jpg) (http://imgur.com/wV2W0o2)

Quick pic of the finished engine bay. Took alot of time cleaning everything and painting things to make it look presentable.

Andrew.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: ACE on November 28, 2017, 09:18:27 PM
Excellent work Andrew.
Well done.
And it looks very nice too!
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: bonno on November 28, 2017, 09:38:38 PM
Good job Andrew.   :)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Mick A on November 28, 2017, 11:27:00 PM
Well done mate! See you on Sunday.
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: stustustu123 on November 29, 2017, 10:41:48 PM
Wow, great result Andrew, amazingly clean and well presented engine bay you have there too.  8)
Title: Re: 3.0 Help Please
Post by: Rising Sun on December 02, 2017, 09:33:42 PM
Hey Andrew, I just read your entire thread here, all 6 pages. Looks like you got some good advice on here and in person and it's wonderful that you actually took the time and effort to get this all sorted yourself. Well done! It's so encouraging to see good young guys like yourself using the resources around you to work things out rather than just giving up. When I did my apprenticeship, I learned that a good mechanic doesnt necessarily know everything, but should know where to get the correct information. Again, we'll done - great effort!