Hi everyone,
I'm looking for a manual car for my kids to learn to drive in, (and for myself and wife to use occasionally instead of the large thirsty barges we both have as dailies) and rather than a cheap, reliable, (boring), Japanese sedan, or an old German with frightful maintenance and repair costs I thought I'd like to get something a little more fun!
Originally I went looking for early MX5's, and discovered that these Alfa spiders are in a similar price range and are a little rarer and I don't mind being "different" :-).
Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about them.
The criteria:
Budget - $5-7K.
Manual
Smallish.
Low running costs
Reliable
Safe. (Airbags, ABS, TC, and any other safety features would be welcomed.)
Fun.
P-Plate legal in Victoria.
To be potentially subsequently used to introduce my kids to entry level motorsport if they are interested. (and maybe let their old man rekindle an old flame...)
Re-sale value isn't a core criteria, but a model at the bottom of it's value range, so that I don't lose too much over the next 4-5 years before either handing it over to one of the kids, (If they want it), selling, or trading it would be nice. (Or keeping it for myself if it turns out to be TOO much fun :-)).
(E.g. Early 90's Series 1 MX5's seem to be valued at more than Series 2 on the used market ATM)
So...
Are there any major issues with these that could be problematic and what should I look out for when buying privately second hand?
I'm in Victoria, (South East) and would be happy to do a PPI if someone can recommend or suggest a local specialist who I could also subsequently use for servicing and maintenance.
How do they compare with a similar vintage MX5? (Despite the obvious fact that MX5's have held their value better.)
Am I kidding myself and buying into a potential nightmare and I should go back to more sensible options such as buy a 2-3 YO Korean/Chinese car and throw it away after 5 years, or getting a Toyota?
Hi
No, you are not barking mad wanting to buy a 916 series spider!
If you buy a Chinese/Korean car you are buying a method of getting from one place to the other as economically as possible.
If you buy an Alfa you are buying a little bit of italian motoring heritage, an inspired Pininfarina design, a passion, a lifestyle – there is simply no comparison between a Hyundai and an Alfa ;D
The 916 series GTVs and Spiders are fundamentally sound mechanically in my opinion – the Twin Spark and V6 engines have a solid reputation for reliability if they are serviced properly. The V6 Busso fitted to these cars is actually regarded as one of the all time greats. The engine you might want to avoid is the JTS used on the Phase 3 cars (approx 2003/4).
The gearbox is also very reliable on all models, the factory diff is the only weakness on the V6 cars.
I have had my 2001 Phase 2 GTV 3.0 V6 for a couple of years now and I love it!
The only criteria IMHO that the Spider does not necessarily meet is the potential to take it onto the track.
The GTV is better suited to this because its chassis is 64% stiffer than the Spider. One of the Club's sponsors is just starting to develop a 916 GTV for AROCA sprint and racing events. It might be at Broadford on Sunday if you would like to have a look (round 1 AROCA Sprint Series).
This buyers guide at Alfa Workshop (UK) will be much more informative than my ramblings...
http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_spider.shtml
Cheers,
Al
I don't know of any Spider specific video reviews but this is a good one of the GTV ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUGUyHEODjU
Thanks for your comments AlanM,
I appreciate that the MX-5 is probably a better choice as a track car, but as this is very much a secondary, (or maybe just me dreaming that I'll find the time!) consideration, (and early MX-5's are starting to atract a premium), I can accept that this, and I want my son to learn in a car that he can appreciate and enjoy rather than just use as a "whitegoods" commuter.
The later JTS cars are out of budget anyway, and the performance of the Twin Spark should be more than enough for a learner driver, so the V6 isn't really a consideration either.
I haven't really started looking in earnest yet, but the few available on carsales in Victoria ATM are either randomly priced for what they are, or the sellers have unrealistic expectations or are downright rude if you ask for information.
How do people expect to sell cars if they don't want to answer any questions?
Example : 190K's, 2000, base model for just under $6K, and a supposed "Millenium" limited edition that he doesn't even want to discuss...
"Not sure what extra features the millennium model comes with other than to say that my mechanic told me that my car has the better engine etc. What I can tell you is that the car drives exceptionally well and that I would prefer to keep it garaged and drive it with the roof down over the summers than to give it away."
So why advertise it at all?
Another that I thought looked more realistic, 105K's, 2002, Luxury for around the same price unfortunately has non-existent books and NO service history. (I know it's cheap, but that's a deal-breaker as getting a car that has missed a few services is too much of a risk)
They then jump to the $8k mark and beyond for similar age and model which puts them beyond my budget.
I may be forced to re-assess my budget and expectations...
Hi there mate, why don't you contact forum member jim501; he has a cracker of a spider that he is planning to sell as another nipper is on the way. He posted on this forum not long ago.
Thanks poobah,
I might just do that...
EDIT : He's in QLD which could make it difficult.
I can empathise with you, I always buy my cars from private sellers and it can be a frustrating experience. My 18 yo son is looking for a TS manual 156 and, based on my own experience, it could take a few months to find the right car.
Ruling out selespeed cars, WA, NT and Qld cars and cars without maintenance histories leaves only 1 or 2 on Carsales at the moment :-X
One of the cars ticks a few boxes but has too many modifications for a P plater looking for car insurance.
Unhelpful owners add to the frustration, fortunately I don't think there are too many of them in the Alfa community in Melbourne.
Buying a car in Sydney or Adelaide and driving it home with your son or daughter would be a great experience - I have done this twice now.
Good hunting!
Alan.
I am looking for Junior's first car. Searching for a manual Alfa with less than 60,000km for under $12K -- yes, examples of the Spider come up! Though I find the thought of him in a droptop Alfa a bit strange. Not sure he'd like it either.
https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Alfa-Romeo-Spider-2003/SSE-AD-4276984/?Cr=9 (https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Alfa-Romeo-Spider-2003/SSE-AD-4276984/?Cr=9)
I suspect he will get a Golf or a MiTo Sport, though the odd very low km 156 that comes up has been considered. That grey one that was on carsales certainly on the list.
Quote from: kaleuclint on January 21, 2017, 11:36:26 AM
I am looking for Junior's first car. Searching for a manual Alfa with less than 60,000km for under $12K -- yes, examples of the Spider come up! Though I find the thought of him in a droptop Alfa a bit strange.
Oh come now, sure its not a case of jealousy, I mean really, his first car, and it's an Alfa Romeo Spider, my first car was a bloody 1981 Toyota Corolla.
Do me a favour . . . .ADOPT ME!
Baz
I've got you beat Baz, my first car was a 73 Corolla! I'm also up for adoption...
I was talking about getting a 2.0L 156 for my son as his first car, but the War Office was less than amused.
But my reasoning is sound - cheap to buy, with all the safety mods "modern" parents could expect, not too powerful but still the coolest thing in the uni carpark. He's at least 12 months off getting his licence, so still time to talk the boss around
I wish an EU citizen would adopt ME... But that's another story!
If I was buying for Junior today, I'd point him towards this:
https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Alfa-Romeo-MiTo-2010/SSE-AD-3768332/?Cr=12 (https://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Alfa-Romeo-MiTo-2010/SSE-AD-3768332/?Cr=12)
Almost a shame that it's in Melbourne as I've also thought a run down the South Coast or across from Adelaide bringing home the first car would be a great father-son experience.
First car? HJ Monaro GTS 4.2. Easy to maintain but big on fuel. Modern options are the opposite!
That's a helluva first car you had KC.
Re Junior, whenever we've discussed cars, h'e been pretty clear on two criteria for what he is looking for - absolutely cannot e a hatchback and has to be a little bit different. So clearly he's picked up a few preferences from his old man.
If he can't get into a 156, I've been thinking of steering toward a series 1 Volvo S40 T4 or maybe a VW Bora V5 or V6 (though I am wary of transmission/electrical issues).
Well it looks like "she who must be obeyed" has gone behind our backs and committed to buy her nieces old car off her - sight unseen!
My son also specified "No Hatchbacks" a little bit fun and a manual as his preferences.
I concurred figuring an occasional weekend blast for me while he is on his "L's" wouldn't be a bad thing :-). (He can't drive it ALL the time after all).
Not gonna happen now.
It's a $#%^*!@# Astra!!!! :-(
Not cool.
Hopefully there is something seriously wrong with it when she brings it over for us to look at this weekend and we can escape.
You could cite used car reviews warning of the perils of Astra electrics - particularly as the cars get older - which are a common issue and can cost big dollars to fix (failed crank sensors I believe are a major problem).
Black5,
your original comments , opinions and desires for your son I saw as admirable and providing him a great start into the alfa family.
Then some two weeks later you're about to hand him ownership ( most likely) of an Astra!!
This is reminiscent of a chap I know who makes 90% of the decisions in the family, and his wife the important 10%.....
Stick to your guns and your son will thank you for it in the long term I'm certain.
Get your son to pile in on the argument, show him this ad for a lovely little spider. Tell him he could be driving one of these! -
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/loganlea/cars-vans-utes/2000-alfa-romeo-spider-t-spark/1137128337
Just looking at the gorgeous colour, lines (leave the dent out), being a convertible, and if he's still in high school, tell him to imagine pulling into the school car park in one of these, he'll be fighting the girls off with a stick. Trust me, he'll tell mum just what she can do with that Astra!!! 8)
For that fact, imagine yourself pulling into anyone's car park/driveway in one of these!! ;D
Baz
Quote from: bazzbazz on January 27, 2017, 04:48:29 PM
Get your son to pile in on the argument, show him this ad for a lovely little spider. Tell him he could be driving one of these! -
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/loganlea/cars-vans-utes/2000-alfa-romeo-spider-t-spark/1137128337
Just looking at the gorgeous colour, lines (leave the dent out), being a convertible, and if he's still in high school, tell him to imagine pulling into the school car park in one of these, he'll be fighting the girls off with a stick. Trust me, he'll tell mum just what she can do with that Astra!!! 8)
For that fact, imagine yourself pulling into anyone's car park/driveway in one of these!! ;D
Baz
LOL. Of course you are right.
Yes, I saw that one Baz.
If it wasn't in QLD and for the "little" issues, it would have been a no-brainer.
My son and I don't need convincing, he is absolutely on board with the Spider as one of our neighbours used to have one, and we are working together to convince his mum that an Astra is definitely not suited to his "requirements".
I reckon I need to get her to drive one and imagine herself using it during the week while he is in school.
@Italian Supermodel
Maybe your Italian good looks can let you get away with taking charge of the ladies, but my balding middle aged Greek physique requires a little more subtlety if I want to maintain any semblance of a marriage.
Quotemy balding middle aged Greek physique
Whaddaya mean? All of us Greek boys take after Adonis ...
Quote from: poohbah on January 27, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
Quotemy balding middle aged Greek physique
Whaddaya mean? All of us Greek boys take after Adonis ...
Yes we do.
Unfortunately, all I got is his nose...
This may have been said before but, as a relatively new Spider owner (well my lovely wife owns it) our experience of our 1999 Twinspark 2.0l (yes, it is a Millenium Spider) would indicate the following things to look for:
Full service history and log books are a real plus.
Make sure the car has a FULL set of keys, especially the brown Master Key and Service Key.
Check that the timing belt and balance belt (and water pump) have been replaced fairly recently
Clutch thrust bearings can wear on Spiders so check that the transmission and gear changes are easy and noise free
The convertible (electric/hydraulic) should work easily and freely (and check back plastic "window" which can get quite cloudy with age)
Rear suspension bushes should be noise free (no squeaks)
Check for the usual oil leaks (both engine and gearbox) some small seepage/weeping may occur on older models
Check that you have a good and reliable Alfa mechanic/workshop fairly close by ;D
There are lots of others that people may contribute but I hope these are helpful.
Our little spider is an absolute joy to drive and still a head-turner!
I'm considering getting a GTV for sprints. What's the problem with a JTS?
Colin, this is a good, measured discussion about the issues.
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=5858.0
Scrupulous maintenance might avoid any problems?
Cheers,
Al
Quote from: poohbah on January 21, 2017, 05:29:27 PM
I've got you beat Baz, my first car was a 73 Corolla! I'm also up for adoption...
Baby [emoji90] yellow (mustard) Leyland marina.
Enough said
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
No contest. You win. My older sister's first car was an orange Marina "fastback". I can still hear it's wheezy starter to this day. Not sure why we all seemed to go for burnt orange as colour of choice. My youngest sisters first car was a burnt orange datsun 1600 (auto unfortunately). So at one stage there were three orange 70s shitboxes in our driveway all at once.
Quote from: poohbah on January 31, 2017, 11:19:36 PM
No contest. You win. My older sister's first car was an orange Marina "fastback". I can still hear it's wheezy starter to this day. Not sure why we all seemed to go for burnt orange as colour of choice. My youngest sisters first car was a burnt orange datsun 1600 (auto unfortunately). So at one stage there were three orange 70s shitboxes in our driveway all at once.
[emoji23]
Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
Hi Alan. An interesting read. Certainly appeared to be two opposing camps with regard to the merits of GDI / JTS engines. I wonder if the same bias still exists?
A lot of research into GDI derived soot contamination of oil is in the public domain. Its now conclusive GDI engines produce soot particles not unlike a diesel and some of these particles find their way into engine lubricants. As you suggest, scrupulous maintenance (regular oil changes) will almost certainly prevent engine issues. However, not every car is scrupulously maintained! JTS or Twin Spark, any engine or machine will suffer due to inadequate servicing. We see it all the time.
Given the proven relatively higher soot contamination of oil by GDI engines, it would be simple to manage via shorter service intervals / more regular oil and filter changes. Funnily enough, increased service intervals were introduced about the same time the JTS came on the scene - very poor timing!
The research into the effects of these tiny soot particles confirms a thickening of the oil. Not good for protection during starting and warm up. These particles conglomerate and will ultimately restrict oil flow in galleries and oil ways. Not surprising the odd worn cam lobe, bottom end bearing or timing chain has been observed. Again, this will not take place if oil is replaced at suitable intervals. This contaminated oil will accelerate oil filter blocking and subsequent bypass.
I'm attracted to the JTS equipped Alfa GTV or possibly 156 for the proposed Formula 98 Sprint Series. The missus loves the GTV so she who must be obeyed...................! As the JTS is a more efficient engine than its predecessor, its the logical choice. Around 5% < 10% more torque and power from the same displacement is attractive on paper. So the challenge is to find a JTS that has been loved from the start.
The higher compression ratio GDI / JTS allows, results in much of the improved torque at lower rpm. Just what the manufacturer and consumer needs without going to the next step of forced induction. The higher compression and subsequent higher combustion temperatures are managed by the smaller combustion chamber surface area. Less heat is lost to the cylinder head and coolant. The hotter and higher pressure gases will expand more. This benefit is exploited by the usual longer stroke of a GDI engine. More BMEP for a longer period equals more torque. Multi valve heads provide good breathing so the higher torque can be produced over a wider rev range = equals more horsepower.
I understand some GDI / JTS engines feature oil spray to the underside of the pistons. This is common on motor bikes and is done to manage the heat in the piston. However, if a relatively volatile oil is sprayed on a hot piston the oil soon vaporizes. So now we have a reduction in oil volume and an increase in viscosity due to loss of volatiles and soot contamination. Not an ideal scenario if maintenance is poor or even worse nonexistent.
I'm looking for a very well loved JTS 156 however we'll probably end up with a GTV JTS.
As has been said before, oil is the least expensive thing you'll put in an engine.
With regard to the GTV / Spider, am I correct in assuming the Twin Spark features an aluminium block whereas the JTS features an iron block or am I way wrong? Could the same be said for the 156 - aluminium block in the Twin Spark / iron block in the JTS?
We had a 147 for a while. I understand these were Twin Spark only. Did all 4 cylinder 147's feature aluminium blocks?
That silver GTV was blisteringly quick in the wet on Sunday. VERY impressive driving of a FWD car!
Hi Colin,
Pretty sure that the 8 valve TS (pre Fiat era) has an aluminium block and the 16 valve (Fiat era) has an iron block.
Hugh's performance in the GTV 916 will have impressed lots of people I am sure!
Al.
I think you're referring to the early Alfa "Twin Cam" engines, alloy block with steel liners. The series was then superseded by the "Twin Spark" series.
Anyone who is more knowledgeable of Alfa engine history please correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: poohbah on January 31, 2017, 11:19:36 PM
No contest. You win. My older sister's first car was an orange Marina "fastback". I can still hear it's wheezy starter to this day. Not sure why we all seemed to go for burnt orange as colour of choice. My youngest sisters first car was a burnt orange datsun 1600 (auto unfortunately). So at one stage there were three orange 70s shit-boxes in our driveway all at once.
Ahh the Marina. Another one of BL's epic products - even the dealers warned you not to buy them.
Alfa 75 TS is an aluminium block (I have one myself), 164 TS in U.K./Euro presumably was the same. Did Alfa change to iron block for 145 and 155.
Al
I'm (actually the missus!) considering a early 2000 GTV - not the spyder for weekend plays and the occasional sprint. I'd prefer the JTS with its better efficiency, however if it features an iron block I'd prefer an aluminium Twin Spark. Second choice 147, third choice 156 JTS. Again if the JTS in the 156 is an iron block, I'd go Twin Spark. Prefer a lighter front end given the FWD arrangement on all three cars. Decisions decisions!!!!
Got the hots at the moment for a 75 Twin Spark, but nobody seems to want to part with one!
Colin, All engines from 1999 onwards in the GTV, 147, 156, both Twinspark and JTS are iron block.
Off topic to OP.
GTV 2000 seems to be a good choice for sprints. Though heavier but the suspension set up is easier. Ask Hugh.
Couldn't really recommend JTS. 147 or 156 TS better. But issue being solving the suspension set up, doable.
Mmmm, 75 TS is the go but lack of supply and dealing with all worn out parts etc.
Back to OP, 2000 Spider, well kept and a good example will be a very nice and pretty car for cruising in. And a TS motor to boot.