Our 1999 Spider T Spark 2.0 manual has just come back from work on a gearbox oil leak but since we brought it home there's been a problem. When it starts, it idles as usual but, as soon as you touch the accelerator, sputters, loses revs and often just stops. Trying to pump the accelerator results in more sputtering and a sort of clunking in the engine bay occasionally. It improves when the engine is warmed up but still loses power and will not hold revs on a throttle setting.
When we collected it, the fuel light was on so am wondering if it might be the fuel filter. If so, is it a simple matter to replace it?
The other possibility is that the mechanic did not reconnect some vital part but I have no idea where to start looking.
Any ideas?
Regardless of whether the fuel filter is the problem, I'd recommend taking it straight back to the mechanic who "fixed" it, ask him why it runs worse than when he fiddled with it and then request that he get it right this time ... gratis.
Shooting in the dark, do you know if the battery was disconnected for any length of time? If so, then maybe it needs to be run through the ECU 'reset' procedure(?). Apparently, I've read, if the battery has been disconnected for a period of time, then reconnected without 'resetting' the ECU, then the throttle may not work correctly, which might cause erratic poor idle and general throttle misbehaviour.
According to what I've read; reset is done by disconnecting the battery for at least 45 minutes, then reconnecting, then turning the key to 'ignition' (or whatever it is in Italian) for 90 seconds, then turning it to 'off' for another 90 seconds (leaving the key in the barrel), then staring the engine and letting it idle for 15 minutes. At no time should the accelerator pedal be touched.
I don't know if this is what is needed, but maybe worth a try.
Regards,
John.
OK...
Thanks to you both.
Have returned the spider to mechanic asking what has happened and please explain etc.
Also tried ECU reset but without much success. Engine is more responsive when warm but still lacks power and, uphill under load will reach a peak speed and go no faster no matter how much right pedal I apply.
Will await report from mechanic and post result.
Nick
By any chance does it refuse to go over 3000 rpm ?
If it does, then I suspect your mech has not done up a hose clamp somewhere.
As for the ECU reset, John is quite correct in its effect on performance, but it will not effect the idle at all.
Hang on, wait a minute, Light bulb moment! Gearbox work eh, bet you dollars to donuts some genius hasn't attached
the gearbox main earth lead or tightened it up properly! ;)
Baz
I'm not sure, but it might be that the 'reset' needs to be done with the engine starting from cold (?). The ECU needs to 're-learn' its' idle settings, and this would I think include what is needed from cold to operating temperature. After 15 minutes of idling the temperature gauge does go from cold to half way on the dial.
I recently did a cold start reset on my car, not because it wouldn't idle well but because the engine felt a bit 'doughy' and less responsive than I thought it ought to be. Results were good, noticeably better, especially throttle response when 'heel / toeing' for downshifts.
Regards,
John.
Thanks again to both.
Have mentioned gearbox earth to mechanic.
John, my ECU reset was done from cold and the idle was not really the issue, it's when you try to use the accelerator that the problem occurs.
Still awaiting developments......
Nick
Nick,
I just thought the reset might be worth trying, I wasn't sure if it was your problem or not.
More shots in the dark; When you rev it does it blow any black smoke? Have you checked the spark plug colour? Is it running rich or lean? Fuel pressure very low??
Other than for the idling being OK, I'd be suspecting an air leak as a possible culprit. It might be interesting to detach the air inlet tube from the throttle body and observe what the butterfly is doing at idle and when you try to give it some revs. I'm thinking maybe an issue with the potentiometer at the pedal, or an issue with the throttle body not opening the butterfly as it should, but really I'm just having a few wild guesses.
Could the MAF sensor being playing up? What happens if you electrically disconnect the MAF? If the MAF sensor is giving bad information to the ECU (???) then the engine may well behave more normally if it's not connected. Another wild guess.
Regards,
John.
I'll pretty much guarantee it's a faulty Airflow Meter. Replace it and all will be well.
Y'know Mick has equal chance at being correct, and yes, I know you'll all say "But it was working before the mech worked on it!"
Mick, you wanna tell em, how many times you've been working on a car an a totally unrelated part has gone "wheels up" during the work? I'm just getting my calculator out to work out the number of times it's happened to me . . . . .;)
Baz
+1 on the air flow meter.
To test if it's the afm, just disconnect the plug on it.
If that's the problem, it'll run sweet straight away.
Steve
Adelaide
Quote from: four90s on October 26, 2016, 12:18:00 PM
+1 on the air flow meter.
To test if it's the afm, just disconnect the plug on it.
If that's the problem, it'll run sweet straight away.
Steve
Adelaide
Hey, I said that first, and need constant affirmation...
Regards,
John.
C'mon count . . .SITREP! We've got sheep stations riding on who is the best swami on this one!!
;D
Baz
Sheep stations!!!! OMG!!!!
Sitrep as of 1700 today.
Mechanic says OBD detects no issues... Also says cannot find fuel filter to check (my spider could have in-tank filter as its a 1999 Millennium).
He is suggesting we got dirty fuel. I am v sceptical. Going in tomorrow to personally disconnect MAF electrics with everyone present. If MAF at fault, will take car home and buy and fit replacement MAF myself rather than spend dollars on an endless merry go round.
Nick
Sorry to hear you still haven't got to the bottom of it Nick.
One other general question: is your mechanic an Alfa specialist? If he says he can't find the fuel filter (and especially if it's because your car may have an in-tank one!) it would seem to be the case that he isn't.
If disconnecting the MAF doesn't allude to anything just take it to the nearest mech who is an Alfa Specialist, and I bet within an hour he'll have found the problem . . . . Mick, you nearby, Alfamen. . . anyone?
Baz
Sitrep and update...
Have been away for a few days but now have time to investigate further.
Will get in and replace spark plugs as my guess is this has not been done since new.
Will also check coil packs at same time.
Will disconnect and inspect MAF sensor, clean if necessary and order replacement if necessary.
Disconnect neg battery while working to reset ECU when work complete.
Anyone interested in photo documenting this?
Will post updates as work progresses.
Nick
PS... Anyone recommend an OBD connector and software for Alfa? Might be very worth while to have on hand for the future.
Don't forget to check the main gearbox earth has been re-attached. Just that you mentioned all was well before car went in for gearbox service. I just don't believe in co-incidences. ;)
Baz
Baz.
Should that earth strap be very visible (stand out like the proverbial dogs *****) or is it in some mysterious location?
Clues please as its not obvious from a cursory check?
If not in place can I fit aftermarket strap from local spares joint and if so where should I attach?
Update as of 7.00 am 17/11
Yesterday got in and replaced all spark plugs (some rust on No1 cylinder plugs and the usual oil residue in some plug housings).
Also replaced No1 cylinder coil pack as older one looked a bit dodgy.
Pulled out MAF sensor and cleaned with isopropyl alcochol and allowed to dry before refitting with new hose clips.
Reset ECU following usual procedure (battery -ve off while I was doing the above work, reconnected -ve, moved ign key to MAR for 90 seconds, then off for 90 seconds with key still in, started engine and left for 20 minutes until thermo fan cut in, turned engine off and left for 15 mins with key still in)
Started and drove for around 20-30 km. Observation was that the engine was running smoothly and the acceleration was better than before but still with some lack of "pull" between 3000 and 4000 rpm. Overall as a warm running engine, an improvement over what we had before but not perfect.
This morning, a cold start (ambient temp around 12 degreesC) and still the "same old same old" with any movement of the accelerator met with coughing, spluttering and almost dying engine.
So, Houston, we still have a problem!
Baz, I checked earthing by doing a Heath Robinson workaround using jumper leads to connect engine to chassis in 2 different places at the same time with no positive result. I guess the question here is "do I now need to reset ECU with proper earth in place before I know for sure that this is an issue.
I will try this later today and see what happens.
Otherwise, it's disconnect MAF sensor with engine running and check if this is the problem but (and you may find this amusing) the MAF sensor wiring connector seems very hard to remove and I don't want to damage it. Is there a trick or some catch or clip that I haven't seen or found that releases this connector?????
Ok, to disconnect the MAF there is a little tab that you press on that pivots and lifts the other end of the tab clear of the locking pin. This becomes more difficult with age, (the cars, not yours) so get a small thin flat blade screw driver and lift up the bottom of the tag over the locking pin and pull off the connector.
As for the earthing cables, it goes from the battery earth, straight down to the left chassis frame, where it is bolted through, it then continues across to the back of the engine. Just follow it along from the battery earth making sure it is firmly attached at all points.
Baz
To all those who had sheep stations riding on the MAF sensor as culprit, I have bad news! Disconnecting MAF sensor has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the problem. Still farts, spits and threatens to die as soon as you apply any throttle to a cold started engine. Turn off engine and restart and it idles beautifully BUT any throttle will again cause same issue.
Will check gearbox earth today but still need some advice.... If I find earth is not connected properly, once I have fixed earth, will I need an ECU reset or not?
Nick
:-\
Checked the air intake tube for splits?
Will check air hoses with soapy water method as I can see/hear no obvious air leaks.
N
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm....
Set up an alternative earth to the engine from battery negative and when I disconnected battery -ve noticed (for the first time) that there is a threaded pole on the battery connector that points upwards but has nothing attached to it. Am I missing something here or just adding to my paranoia?
SITREP as of 1700 25/11
Today set up extra engine earths (YES PLURAL) and then did ecu reset and left engine until cold. On starting we have Groundhog Day!!!!! Still spits and coughs with any throttle from cold.
Can find no air leaks in hoses so am stumped from here on.
Took it for a good long drive anyway and noticed 2 things.
1. The spit/fart with throttle went away a little more quickly this time as engine warmed
2. When warm, engine more responsive this time. Revved quite freely with only a couple of hesitations at around 4500 rpm so this is a bit better.
Wonder if it might be an idea to drive it for a tank of fuel and see if the ecu "re-learns" and things improve.
If not...off to an Alfa expert
Nick
May I suggest a good dose of injector Cleaner in the fuel tank and a "Spirited" weekend drive.
I mean you ARE in what must be the most incredible part of the world to go for a weekend blat ! :)
Baz... Great thought and now in action BUT as nearly everyone has pointed out, once you open Pandora's Box, the evils emerge.
Since replacing spark plugs and one coil pack I now have an air con that does not work!!!!
It seems obvious that in the process I disturbed the green wire that runs from the harness under the upper rocker cover down to the aircon compressor But I was very careful to dertach the wire at its connector clip right on top of the compressor and reattach making sure the connector was correctly slipped onto the tab on the compressor.
Have used my multimeter to check what happens on that green wire when the aircon is turned on and off and there is no voltage on it no matter whether the aircon is on or off so unless it has some other function, it would seem that there must be a break somewhere. Noticed that the black plastic shielding over the green wire was very brittle in one place and broke easily but the green wire under is SEEMS intact.
Before I go further, can someone enlighten me if I'm correct in assuming that when the aircon is switched on, the green wire goes live with 12 volts to engage the compressor clutch?
Getting ready with the large hammer as this is becoming VERY frustrating.
Nick
Ah Nick, welcome to the delights of dodgy 932 series air-con. Having just replaced the compressor bearing on my 156 I then discovered a ($2) switch in the compressor has worn out ... and can't be replaced itself, but requires the whole compressor to be replaced. What joy.
Quote from: The Count on November 26, 2016, 03:37:33 PM
Before I go further, can someone enlighten me if I'm correct in assuming that when the aircon is switched on, the green wire goes live with 12 volts to engage the compressor clutch?
Yes. And no. There is also a pressure switch in the system, which will only allow 12v to be supplied if the gas pressure in the system is not to low or too high. It is entirely possible you have a slow leak in the system, and there is no longer sufficient gas in the system to allow the compressor to be powered. Co-incidence is an amazingly common and frustrating thing...
I don't remember off hand whether the green wire runs to the pressure switch, or whether it runs to the relay, and the pressure switch operates on the 'control' side of the relay. I think its the latter, in which case you should be able to test continuity of said wire from one of the pins in the relay socket to the plug (on car wiring) at the compressor. Also test from the plug on the compressor itself to the aluminium body of the compressor, ensure you have some resistance through there, as would be expected from the winding of the electromagnet. Also ensure there is 12v power being supplied to the relay socket at the main power pin.
Check your cigarette lighter, does it work? If not replace the fuse for cigarette lighter and the A/C will work, the A/C compressor runs off the same fuse as the cigarette lighter. (NO this is NOT a joke)
Baz
OK... Will try to check those but thus far I can't seem to find the pressure switch. Any guidance on its location?
Baz... Have checked cigarette lighter and all accessible fuses to right of steering column and all check out OK as does the big 30 amp aircon fuse under the bonnet in front of passenger side dashboard.
We're whittling em down!
::)
Well if the system is low on gas, it simply will not run as the pressure switch which is in the piping at the front lower right of the car won't allow it.
Time to take it to someone who services A/C systems.
Baz
Quick update
Have run a tank of fuel through with injector cleaner but still faced with the same issues (i.e.any throttle to a cold started engine results in "cough, splutter, fart etc" and, once warm, there is still an issue with the power band cutting back around 3500 to 4000 rpm).
As suggested, it goes in to the Alfa dealer as I'm at a loss what to try next.
On the subject of the aircon, checked the clutch on the compressor and that works fine so it's off to the aircon people for a regas and pressure switch check.
Thanks for all suggestions and help.
Nick
And yet more...
In my continuing search for issues with the spider I would like to change the air filter but can't seem to find a "how-to" on this one.
Is it working top down or bottom up???
Attached is a pic of the housing taken from above so do I remove the MAF sensor and hose and take the lid off to replace the filter or do I do it from under the car?
Advice please???
Replace through the top.
Thanks Baz,
Will do.
More now on the mystery of fuel supply in the spider.
Problem has worsened now with some days where engine will not start first time and can take 3 or 4 tries. Happens when hot and cold.
More and more suspecting fuel pump as root cause. I believe mine is an "in tank" unit which I understand is accessible from the top through the boot????
Anyone replaced one of these and could give me a brief "how to"?
Nick
Here you go, pic included.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gtv-andamp-916-spider/319085-2001-spider-2-0-fuel-pump-location.html
There are 3 VERY important steps that this gentleman has left out -
1/ Have a fire extinguisher close at hand ready for emergency
2/ Once you have access to the fuel pump, disconnect the electrical connection and start and run the engine till it stalls, then try starting it again until it refuses to fire. This will remove all pressure in the system so that when you disconnect the fuel supply line fuel will be less likely to pour out.
3/ After depressurising the system disconnect the battery before carrying out any further work.
Baz
Baz..
Thanks for that.. under way with the removal but have struck a problem with the simple command "Unscrew the retaining ring and the pump assembly can be carefully lifted out"....
WTF! The retaining ring on mine seems like it's welded into place and I cant even get it to start unscrewing (assuming that the retaining ring is the big plastic collar on the outside top once you've removed the metal plate cover.)
Any suggestions??? Have tried to tap with hammer and bit of wood as well as very blunt screwdriver and hammer but it does not want to budge and I'm worried that I will break it. (The new pump does NOT come with the retaining ring so will need to re-use this one.)
Any ideas welcome.
Nick
YUP, everything you said is 100% correct, they can be pricks to remove, if you do break it you are screwed (no pun intended).
Now seeing you are removed from any locality where you can pop down to the local wreckers and pick up a spare I suggest you get a "Fuel Pump Bezel Removal Tool" made up. Simply get a H shaped tool made up without the two top legs, weld a 3/8" or 1/2" socket on top and your golden. The "legs" should be made so they engage the raised ribs that you were hammering on before. Must be rather robust so there is zero flex.
Anyone who can weld can make one up in short time at little cost, a slab at the most. Here is a link to one made up -
http://www.totallyalfa.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.dspProduct&id=5
The main point is that you need something that will engage in 3-4 of the ribs solidly & enough height to clear the top of the pump.
Have fun. ;)
Baz
This may. Help. I literally just fitted my new pump. On installing you basically have to push the pump down in its seat as it seems to be on some spring mechanism so you can fit the cap. I'm wondering if you get someone to push down on the pump while you try to hit it off it may release the tension. Worth a try. Pm me if you like. Oh and by the way if you are looking for a new pump give them the vins as the one I thought was right was wrong. Any way all sorted
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One point to remember, the older the plastic, the more brittle it becomes.
As Greg has done, I too have simply used the judicious use of a hammer and a appropriate sized punch, but the first time I tried it this way I snapped the Bezel. :o
Since then I have learnt the hard way just how hard you can, and can not, wallop these things.
" Oh and by the way if you are looking for a new pump give them the vins as the one I thought was right was wrong. Any way all sorted"
REALLY! ???
When you ordered the pump from the guys at PEC you checked with them and gave them the model and year number?
Sorry if I put you onto the wrong one. I have just installed one of those that I posted into both a 156 GTA and a GT 3.2.
I must have not realised the year of your GTA, sorry, my bad if I gave you the wrong link. :-\
Absolutely not bazza. My mistake . I presumed from the specs on eBay that it was right. I was prompted by pec to confirm my vin etc and they advised what i presumed was right was wrong. They sorted it all out for me my problem. Just goes to show when buying stuff double check. The pump ended up more expensive but hey. That's what it is
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Well, even more good news to hand, after txt'ing with Greg apparently his car is no longer "stinking" either. ???
(Guess he found more than just spare change under the rear seat?) :o
;D
Well, for less than the cost of a slab, I got one of these sent to me from one of our major online auto spares stores so look out fuel pump, here I come (once my new pump arrives)
Nick
Is it really big enough to expand to the size required????
If so, you're a bloody genius, in the RAAF we would call that "Lateral Thinking!" ;)
Baz
Quote from: 105greg on January 25, 2017, 07:01:43 PM
This may. Help. I literally just fitted my new pump. On installing you basically have to push the pump down in its seat as it seems to be on some spring mechanism so you can fit the cap. I'm wondering if you get someone to push down on the pump while you try to hit it off it may release the tension. Worth a try.
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I'm afraid it won't. The top of the pump assembly seals against the top of the tank, the bottom section is spring loaded, so you push down till the top is pressed against the top of the tank then screw the cap on. You have to think of it as the top section being the fixed point and it is the bottom that floats up and down on the springs, not the other way around.
The lower spring section is to assure the pump is always firmly against the floor of the tank, also allows for tolerances in tank manufacture, expansion/contraction with heat/cold and allows the pump to be fitted to slightly different sized tanks.
Baz
Nice if that works you can hire it out to every other poor bastard. Funny they must be all different. I was lucky mine I came off easily .
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Well you started with a blunt chisel . . . . maybe it was afraid of what might be next if it didn't relent? ;)
;D
Will not be able to get to this for a couple of weeks as life is busy but will keep you posted. By the time I get to try the tool, my new fuel pump should be here so will take some pics as I do the job.
Nick