Hi to all out there,
I am a new member of the WA division and I am in the process of tracking down a 105 2L GTV.
I would be delighted in hearing from any one that can help me with my search.
I am not looking for the concourse finish job as I intent to use it as an every day or almost every day car.
My wife thinks I am crazy to buy such an old car, however, I tell her that like her some things get better with age!
I am reasonably handy with my hands so I will expect to do a bit of work to the alfa I eventually get.
Can any of the 105 experts in the club give me some advice on what to look for when purchasing a 105 GTV 2L.
I look forward to exchanging stories, hopefully good ones, in the future.
Regards
Tim Jobson
Welcome and good luck in your hunt Tim.
As soon as we (I) receive your application (have i already?), you will start receiving the club mag which, along with eBay, car sales sites and this forum will be a great source for your target car.
Then we want to see you at some events
Ed
Hello and welcome Tim,
FYI there was a GTV in todays quokka if you havent seen it already.
Good luck
Couple of things to look at when purchasing a 105
Rust – Alfa Romeo's arch enemy, be wary if the car is showing rust bubbles under the paint, but be even more wary if there are none, there are a lot of 105's out there full of bog and a poor repair is usually harder to fix than the original rust. Standard rust spots are in front and behind both wheels, doors, under front bumper, floor foot wells and boot (both in spare wheel well and around fuel tank flange).
Accident reapirs – take a torch and check under front guards and check for cracked paint in the engine bay is this sometimes isn't repainted after an accident. The entire boot on these cars is very weak so check for creases near the top of the rear wheel arch.
Check if the doors open and close well, the doors are pretty long and heavy so the hinges tend to wear out, can be fixed though
Just standard engine stuff, check oil and water levels look for smoke under acceleration, make sure there are no signs of oil in the water (head gasket) and check for water leaks, particularly from the water pump.
Gearbox synchros in first and second are nearly always worn.
The other thing to think about is interior, its easy to neglect that and say you'll fix it up latter, but this can be a very expensive exercise, so purchasing a car with a good interior to begin with can save a lot of money in the long run.
Just a couple of things to think about, I'm sure other people can add heaps more
Tim
To follow on from where Colin left off, which by the way was most comprehensive, is also suspension, especially the front but also the rear. Again all the usual things, ball joints, tie rods, bushes. etc If these are worn the car will be clunky when going over bumpy roads, your steering can also be affected by worn suspension and lastly typical of poorly maintained 105s they can be squeaky in the front end. Again all of these things can be fixed, parts are readily available but to go over the front and rear suspension can cost easily $1500. If the shock absorbers are worn, from my experience Konis are probably the best option, possibly Bilsteins (costly) either the basic red or preferably yellow (sports). I have the yellows in my 1750 and also 124 sport. Absolutely rapt in these.
The good news for 105 Alfas is the huge range of new (and 2nd hand) parts available. Apart from the Alfa mag and perhaps some of the sponsors, from my knowledge in Aus (in Melbourne) there is Milano spares and the 105 factory. Huge range including panels etc. Vin Sharp (Pace Engineering) for engine/gearbox, suspension and exhausts plus overseas in the UK, Alfaholics, Classic Alfa, EB Spares and Highwood Motor Co (All have websites) plus ebay including Ricambi Automobilia as well as Alfa spares places in the US. From my dealings I usually use both Milano and Classic Alfa, as they seem to offer the best prices.
The good thing is if you have rust, in the front cills, wheel arches etc, there are rust replacement pannels available but better to get an un-rusty 105. Mine has all the usual problems. The boot lid itself often is rusty on the rear edge. Also doors crack and rust around the door handle. Headlinings often are stained and or torn, but you can buy new ones. Headlights corrode but new ones are available, as are all rubber parts for these cars.
Hope that helps. By the way there is a red 2000 on Ebay for sale at the moment, plus I would check out carpoint or carsales.com.au as I am sure there will be a number of 2L GTVs for sale.
Dave
Quote from: Davidm1750 on July 04, 2008, 01:34:42 PM
but better to get an un-rusty 105.
he he, thats a good one!
Yeah you are not wrong, but believe me I have actually seen at least one such example, and that was in the London, Uk the home of rust !! Richard Banks (Classic Alfa) had a series 2 1750 with less than 20,000m on the clock, it was like brand new !!
Thank you for those words of advice, I do appreciate the info as it will hopefully save me some heart ache.
My ultimate preference would be for a blue body colour with a tan interior however it seems that there are mostly red ones with black interiors. Does anyone know how many 105 2Ls were imported into Aust and what colours they came in?
It is good to know that there are many suppliers to choose from especially body parts as I have had some experience in replacing panels when I restored and converted to RHD a 1989 Fiat spider 2000 some years ago.
Are the 105 panel all welded or are any of them bolt on?
Regards TCJ
Hi Tim
Hopefully none of the advice given scares you off, since if you can get a really good one, I am certain you will love it. The handling is sublime, the gearbox if in excellent condition is something really special and the 2L engine has so much torque. I use to have a 2L Berlina, which had a great gearbox and engine. Pity about the body!! Dark blue with the tan interior is an excellent choice. Its actually the colour I intend for my Super.
As to the colours they came in to Aus. Off the top of my head, white, red, burgandy, silver, pine green, metallic green, navy blue, Le Mans blue (a bit lighter than cobalt blue), tan, beige, metallic dark blue. That is what I can recall. There is a listing for the correct Alfa paint colours, am sure you can find it by googling it or perhaps someone else can provide the link.
Unlike the Fiat spider, the only panels whic effectively are bolt on, on the 105 are the doors, bootlid, bonnet and panel under the windscreen. I have seen pictures of 105s being restored in the UK where they have unfixed the welds on the front valance, guards, rear guards and rear valance. Major work. However, if you check out either Alfaholics or Classic alfa's websites you can see the comprehensive listing of new panels, let alone anything else you might need to restore a 105 GTV.
Goodluck with the search. Dave
Quote from: Colin Byrne on July 04, 2008, 06:26:04 AM
The other thing to think about is interior, its easy to neglect that and say you'll fix it up latter, but this can be a very expensive exercise, so purchasing a car with a good interior to begin with can save a lot of money in the long run.
Having said that, the 2000 GTV is the one you'd want if the interior was the only problem - UK parts sellers have lots of NOS and repro 2000 seat covers and bits, and the 2000 dashboards and gauge housings are both less delicate and easier to find than 1750 ones.
As for colours.. On your 2000, the following graphic I've made up is pretty close to it. There might be more, and other combinations MAY be original, but these are dead certs. Trying to record Alfa history on these things is notoriously difficult.
Quote from: Davidm1750 on July 04, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
metallic green
Correct. I left one off.
Verde Oliva Metallizzato - Olive Green Metallic. Usually seen with the Pigskin brown interior.
I don't know about your claims of a dark metallic blue and a beige and tan however.. Piper Yellow is pretty washed out?
Quote from: Davidm1750 on July 04, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
The handling is sublime
Umm... Let's not get too misty eyed here. They're fun certainly, and they're very well balanced, and they're excellently set up in stock configuration. Also, the steering is wonderful to use and perfectly weighted. But I'd stop short of sublime - the live rear axle can hop about a bit, and even in an LSD equipped 2000, it'll pay you to be pretty careful when the rain hits.
Quote from: Davidm1750 on July 04, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
Pity about the body!! [Berlina]
Now now. We all know there's $ in GTVs, but nothing slices through the air like a Bertone Berlina... Plus, you can fit four people in it, their luggage and more in the boot, then head off at 100mph, drive for 3 hours and get out feeling fresh as a daisy. 3 hours in the GTV and you need a Chiro.
Thanks guys for the moral support, I think I will need it after just looking over the 2L GTV that was in the local Quokka paper.
The car was a 73 white that looked as if it had not been touched from original, still had original service book and manual. Door seals trim and seats all look original, now rock hard. I went over the body with a magnet and did not find any bog however it looks like someone had slaped a coat of white over the original paint that can still be seen in the engine bay. This paint is cracked over the wheel arches and numerous other areas. Rust was cut out bottom of door near door hing and left foot well, there is visible rust under front bumper near radiator support and in boot around fuel tank and below the bottom of left rear light.
To me it looks like it would be a full restoration job, so does anyone have a ballpark figure on what it would cost to: replace door and window seals, Headliner, carpets, repaint body, overhaul gearbox, diff, brakes and engine and redo all suspension bits!!
One thing that was odd was it had door protection strips running along the sides, was this an original fit to all 105s? It was an aust delivered vehicle so it was not a USA job.
I loved the paint chart of the original colours, interesting that red ones only came with black interiors.
regards TCJ
QuoteTo me it looks like it would be a full restoration job, so does anyone have a ballpark figure on what it would cost to: replace door and window seals, Headliner, carpets, repaint body, overhaul gearbox, diff, brakes and engine and redo all suspension bits!!
Alot!! ;D
seriously that is going to be a big project
if you want a really quick idea of prices of new parts check out alfaholics or classic alfa they both have online prices for all those bits, i'm not saying you have to get it from there but it will give you an idea of price,
and as far as body work goes check out this thread
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,68/topic,1412.0/ (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,68/topic,1412.0/)
i'd think very carefully about starting a project like that (Well actually i probably wouldn't!!), what's the asking price?
Hi Tim
Yeah would cost heaps and it depends could be 20 K, 30K, 40k...............
Whats your price range ?
Would you consider getting a more expensive better condition car that has one or more of those items in good nick (body, engine, etc)
Dont think the side mouldings were standard best to take em off and launch them
Quote from: Tim jobson on July 05, 2008, 01:53:05 PM
I loved the paint chart of the original colours, interesting that red ones only came with black interiors.
No worries. Its also useful to know because red is the most common colour change (resale Red!), and so if you go and inspect a red GTV with brown interior, you know the owner is lying when he tells you it always has been red. Then you might want to wonder what else he's lying about, including that freshly rebuilt engine ;D
As for a whole resto of a 105. You don't want to think about it. If you're keen to have a really good one, and it seems that you are, I would just wait for a better car to come around. I wouldn't spend less than 10-12K on a 105 coupe now. When I bought mine it was a very nice runner at only 9K, but the market seems to have gone a little mad for these cars.
Colin the guy was in another world because he was asking 12K for it!, not even worth 7k I recon.
One other thing was it seemed to backfire alot on deceleration, is it normal for 105s!, the owner said it showed that the timing was spot on, yet I bet!, and I was lucky to stop the car as it seemed to have little brakes, again he said it was due to a faulty brake booster, would this be correct?
I have just spotted another one for $3000 as an unliced rusty wreck with a good interior, I wonder if it would make a good parts car? or are parts easy and better to buy new.
Regards TCJ
Tim
It sounds dodgy to me !!! $12k for a resto, who is he kidding apart from himself. No a 105 should not be backfiring on de-acceleration. It could be something simple like a shot muffler or exhaust or possibly worse, ie. engine problems/timing ?? If the brakes were dodgy that too is not good, could be problems with the brake master cylinder (ie. brake booster), air in lines, slave cylinder, amount of brake lining left etc. Both of these issues should be checked out properly by a qualified mechanic. Preferably someone who knows Alfas.
Buying a $3K rusty wreck, while possibly a little expensive, even if it has a good interior, could be worth it if perhaps the gearbox or engine etc is in good condition, and also external trims. As I previously mentioned and others have, the availability of new parts is not a problem, albeit costly. In the end it comes down to your budget, how much work you can do or not. Bodywork is expensive if you have to pay someone, ditto mechanicals and trim.
To give you an example, my Super's restoration cost me $2.5K to cut out all the rust and replace panels, paint stripping and a crap paint job which cost me more $K (dont want to think about it). I had the seats, dash and door panels rebuilt and trimmed in Connolly leather $2.5K, new and 2nd parts (lights, rubbers, trim etc) from variety of sources easily $1K. Gearbox rebuild $1.1K just for parts (I was lucky a mate did it for free). Still need to sort out the painting (again), an engine (mate owes me one), suspension easily $2.5K, electricals, carpet and sundry items and then put it all together. Total cost est for the project $12-15K and that is by doing as much as I can. To pay someone to totally rebuild it you probably could double it. Good luck with the hunt. Cheers Dave
Thanks Dave for details about your own experience with 105 restoration, I am also the sort of guy that will try to do as much of the work myself until professional help is called on. I note you also have had experience with Fiats. I have had a collection including a 850 sport, 128 SL, 124 Sport CC, and a 2000 Spider, so I am familiar (unfortunately used a Mig welder on many occasions) with rusty Italian metal work.
I do not want a full resto project, probably one that I can do a rolling resto with if necessary!
Can you tell me why 105s are a bit twitchy in the rear in the rain? Also can some one explain what rear suspension 2000 GTV 105s have and is it call an independant rear?
Regards TCJ
Tim
In my view, 105's are an absolute delight to drive anytime.......until you push just a little bit, and then the rear wants to catch up with the front & you get this experience you call........"twitchy"......and as far the rain goes.............the moment you think you have it covered, is the moment that it becomes incredibly "twitchy" again......
Cheers
Len
Quote from: Tim jobson on July 10, 2008, 07:36:58 PM
Can you tell me why 105s are a bit twitchy in the rear in the rain? Also can some one explain what rear suspension 2000 GTV 105s have and is it call an independant rear?
Hi tim.
105s have a live rear axle, which although it is quite well located and quite heavy duty, still can't get away from the fact that it is, exactly that - a live axle rear end. In many senses too, they are actually quite powerful cars for their size (approx 100kw/1000kg) and with a weight bias towards the front, so it is quite easy (more so in a coupe) to get the unloaded rear end to play tricks. The LSD is a helpful addition, but doesn't really fix the problem - it will simply stop the inside wheel spinning on a mid corner bump, or might straighten the line on damp patch, but being an LSD, it still needs power running through it to work effectively - and they do wear.
I found all this out from personal experience, being a little too eager on a damp freeway on-ramp one April afternoon. Tail came around, I hit the wall with the front, then kept spinning and hit it with the back too to finish the job. Still, this didnt put me off 105s, and I have to say that in their defence, in the dry they really are magnificent. I remember one night with my 1750 Berlina (which is even better balanced than the coupes), going unbelievably fast around a rather famous and interesting piece of riverside boulevard here in Melbourne and just being astonished at how well this 40 year old 3-box sedan goes, stops and steers.
One criticism is that controls in the 105 are a little bit heavy, but drive one fast and it makes SO much sense. The steering just comes alive and is so communicative, the brakes take a big shove but slow commendably and with minimal fade and the gearbox and clutch are just perfectly suited. After that night I understood 105s so much better - they are meant to be driven fast and with gusto.
Here's the results of that on-ramp btw.
Yeouch Pete, that would have hurt !!! Have to agree with all you say re the 105 coupes. Having lived with my 1750 GTV for the past 12 years now, I know how entertaining they can be in the wet. In the dry and on some lovely bendy roads they really come into their own. I also agree with your comments on the Berlina. In my view, I reckon these are highly undervalued and/or appreciated by many 105 owners. I have a real soft spot for the 1750. I enjoyed my 2L Berlina and was sorry to see it go. Regrettably it is a wreck now. There seem to be so few left now which is a pity. The Super is similar in many ways but being shorty possibly not as well balanced. I dont have a lot of experience with them so perhaps someone might suggest otherwise. Hopefully when mine is finished I will get to finally find out how good they are.
Tim, yes I have owned/restored a few Fiats 124 sedan, AC 124 sport (owned for past 27 years), 125 Special, 130 sedan. My family also had a 132, but it is my brother who has the Fiat collection, including 600s (x2), multiplas (x2), 850s(x2), 124 coupes (x4), and 130s sedans & coupes (x8). This is only part of a huge collection of classic cars (at last count over 70), which also includes Alfas, Lancia, Range Rovers, Mecerdes, Jaguars, Rileys, and Borgwards. He is a little eccentric. Cheers Dave
As Pete says 105's use a solid axle rear. Most of the setup is fairly standard, coil over shocks and lower trailing arms. However the lateral location is a little different, the axle is located by a large T piece that is mounted, and can pivot on, the chassis rails. The T piece connects to the top of the differential and provides both lateral support and stops the axle rocking backwards or forwards on the lower trailing arms. With good quality, new bushes the system does work very well but there are some drawbacks. Due to having only one top mounting point axle tramp can be an problem during heavy breaking but the biggest issue is that the point that the T-Piece connects determines the Rear Roll-Centre of the car. As this point is at the top of the diff the rear roll centre is relatively high and as theses cars also have a very low front roll centre the roll axis that is created is not ideal, these properties also contribute to the "twichyness" of 105's . And just a quick point, while LSD's are great the can contribute significantly to oversteer, because rather than just the inside wheel spinning, both wheels are able to, this increase in longitudinal slip of the rear tires significantly reduces the available lateral grip, less rear lateral grip = more oversteer.
Sheesh Colin, anyone would think you're an engineer or something!!!
Seriously, its always interesting to read your explanations......I makes me realise exactly what I really know about setting up a car properly, absolutely nothing!
Thanks guys for enlightening me on the rear set ups of 105s. I have seen some books where they said that the 2000 105 GTVs had LSD, was this a standard fit or only an optional extra?
I have also seen some of the 105s for sale indicating that they have independant suspension, would they ony be referring to the front or is the rear able to be modified to be independant?
Regards driving in the rain with a 105, well I never like driving when its wet so I will hopefully never push my luck when I get my wheels.!
Regards TCJ
Yeah Tim the 2000 GTV had LSD as standard fit and the ratio was 4.1:1.
The rear end is a well located live axle as the boys have stated with their informative explainations (is your car fixed yet Pete ?)
so any ads would have to be referring to the front end only.
Yes can vouch for entertainment in the wet my little Junior with its stocko 1600 donk lites them up like you wouldnt believe in the wet if your not careful with the throttle, and its 34 year old non LSD diff spins one wheel (usually the right) then the left gets involved sometimes as well
The 2 litre is a nice package with the most power and torque and LSD as final refinements on these magnificent alfas, just in the wet they need a lover with a slow hand.
Cheers
Pep
Nah I sold the wreck just over 2 years ago.
Car is actually currently on Ebay, having been fixed up. Very overpriced though.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ALFA-ROMEO-1974-GTV-2000-GTA-LOOK-RWC-GREAT-INVEST_W0QQitemZ200237757114QQihZ010QQcategoryZ35227QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Just read through this thread, and wanted to thank the guys with the experience and knowledge sharing their thoughts on driving 105's. Very informative fellas.