apart from alfa are other makes allowed to be on club rego with the alfa club, eg holdens
Quote from: enzo164 on December 31, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
apart from alfa are other makes allowed to be on club rego with the alfa club, eg holdens
Here are my thoughts...
If you are a current financial club member AND you also have an Alfa on the club permit scheme already, I have no objection to non-Alfas also being signed up under that particular member. (For example, I have a BMW on CPS via the Alfa club but also have 3 Alfas on the CPS).
If the Holden is your only car under the CPS scheme I would request you join the Holden car club for CPS.
The above approach is an attempt to ensure that the majority of CPS cars administered by the AROCA Vic, are actually Alfas.
Best Regards
Phil Nash
Club Permit Officer
I am in the process of accuring another 2xalfa suds which I will put on club reg once RWC, as it is I have 3 cars 2x holdens 1966 and 1970 a alfa 164q and soon a set of suds to add the collection once they arrive and if I can find another gtv6 but 1 step at a time.
cool man
Quote from: massiveluvbuddy67 on December 31, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
If you are a current financial club member AND you also have an Alfa on the club permit scheme already, I have no objection to non-Alfas also being signed up under that particular member. (For example, I have a BMW on CPS via the Alfa club but also have 3 Alfas on the CPS).
If the Holden is your only car under the CPS scheme I would request you join the Holden car club for CPS.
With all respect Phil I disagree.
A person with modern Alfa's or even daily driven older Alfa's shouldn't be directed to another club because they have a dark side (ie. own a old non-alfa they only choose to drive occasionally).
The Alfa club is about including all Alfa Romeo owners, not just those with CPS compliant vehicles.
I agree with Brad on this one, the approach seems a bit overly restrictive. If someone owns a late model Alfa and is a member of our club, but also owns a classic non-Alfa I see no reason to make them join another club. You could reasonably object to people with no Alfas joining just to get plates for their Falcodore, but I'm sure we don't get too many of those anyway.
A different question - can the Alfa club authorise a club permit for my (imaginary) Vespa?
Quote from: Evan Bottcher on January 01, 2015, 03:00:18 PM
I agree with Brad on this one, the approach seems a bit overly restrictive. If someone owns a late model Alfa and is a member of our club, but also owns a classic non-Alfa I see no reason to make them join another club. You could reasonably object to people with no Alfas joining just to get plates for their Falcodore, but I'm sure we don't get too many of those anyway.
A different question - can the Alfa club authorise a club permit for my (imaginary) Vespa?
Hi Brad and Evan,
Your point is well made. Unfortunately, we have no hard guideline on this issue. It is worthy of discussion with David Wright and the committee for a definitive approach. At the moment, I can easily validate if a financial member has an Alfa on CPS, I cannot validate they own a non-CPS registered Alfa.
At the moment I am taking the conservative approach until otherwise advised. I will escalate to both David and Ross/the committee for their ruling.
On the Vespa = yes.
I hope to catch up with both of you soon on a drive early in the new year. I have been laying low post the April 2014 AGM.
Best Regards
Phil
I currently have one car on an AROCA club permit, a Holden. I used it to tow my unregistered sud to track days. Thought it was a great idea? I wanted to put the sud on the CPS, but a roadworthy for a track car in AROCA? LOL. Guess you have to know someone...? I know of a sud track car that had to go to another car club to get a club permit. LOL again. So disappointing.
Where is this coming from? Are there more non-alfas than alfas on the CPS in AROCA? Has someone been caught doing something they shouldn't ...or too many cooks ?
Hope you resolve this quickly, my AROCA renewal is coming up end of march and the holden permit is due end of June, I don't want to be left without a tow car.
Quote from: massiveluvbuddy67 on December 31, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
If the Holden is your only car under the CPS scheme I would request you join the Holden car club for CPS.
Best Regards
Phil Nash
Club Permit Officer
Should I join a holden car club to be on the safe side, as requested? pffft.
Can I still compete at AROCA sprints if I'm a member of a holden car club and not AROCA?
Best Regards
Concerned member
Quote from: Frank Musco on January 02, 2015, 01:25:27 AM
I wanted to put the sud on the CPS, but a roadworthy for a track car in AROCA? LOL. Guess you have to know someone...? I know of a sud track car that had to go to another car club to get a club permit. LOL again. So disappointing.
AROCA has never authorised cars on the club plate scheme without a full roadworthy. That was a considered decision by the committee for a range of reasons, including liability to the club and authorised officers in the event of an accident related to an unroadworthy car. If you "know someone" who will write you a dodgy RWC then that would get you through, but that's got nothing to do with the club.
Some clubs are putting cars on club plates without a RWC, and of course there were some clubs who were created solely for the purpose of dodgy club plates! For this reason Vicroads are (eventually) going to introduce the proposed tightened rules. In that case you'll only be able to get a car on club plates with a RWC in any club.
Quote from: Frank Musco on January 02, 2015, 01:25:27 AM
Hope you resolve this quickly, my AROCA renewal is coming up end of march and the holden permit is due end of June, I don't want to be left without a tow car.
Agreed this needs to be resolved promptly.
Quote from: Frank Musco on January 02, 2015, 01:25:27 AM
Can I still compete at AROCA sprints if I'm a member of a holden car club and not AROCA?
You'd need to join a CAMS affiliated club in order to get a L2S license, unless I'm mistaken. Then you could compete in the associate class. I think the Holden Sporting Car Club of Vic is one. I note that in order to qualify for the club permit scheme under their club you need to officiate at two of their motorsport events per year. A lot of clubs apply those restrictions on the club plate scheme - e.g. have to attend X social events, or be in the club for N months before being eligible. Restrictions that until now haven't been placed on the club permit scheme in our club.
I will still argue that restrictions are unnecessary in our club unless there are genuine signs of abuse.
Quote from: Frank Musco on January 02, 2015, 01:25:27 AM
I currently have one car on an AROCA club permit, a Holden. I used it to tow my unregistered sud to track days. Thought it was a great idea? I wanted to put the sud on the CPS, but a roadworthy for a track car in AROCA? LOL. Guess you have to know someone...? I know of a sud track car that had to go to another car club to get a club permit. LOL again. So disappointing.
Hi Frank,
Pragmatism will always reign over process.
Your car is already in the AROCA CPS scheme, your Holden renewal will be processed without issue.
I have escalated to Ross, Paul B, Anthony and David for advice on processing non-Alfa CPS applications.
Having said that I am keen to elicit feedback from forum members too.
Some options to get the ball rolling...
If you are a financial AROCA member:
1. Any eligible car or motorbike can apply for AROCA CPS?
2. Only Alfa Romeo cars (are there any motorbikes?) can be put on AROCA CPS?
3. You need to have at least one Alfa on CPS to have other non-Alfas on AROCA CPS?
4. You need to have an Alfa (modern or on CPS) to put a car on AROCA CPS?
We have many non-Alfas on CPS already.
IMHO, option 1 may be the easiest to administer.
Option 3 is a suggestion I have put forth but has an element of restriction that clearly adversely impacts well intentioned club members - see Frank's earlier post.
Option 4 was suggested by Brad and, on reflection, could be a good compromise.
Thoughts please? The CPS is a service for club members and I am confident we have enough senior, mature members who will ensure the CPS process is not abused.
Many Thanks
Phil
My vote is for 4. I have two Alfas, but will eventually have my late Dad's HQ to register.
Why not say you have to be a FULL member of the Club to be eligible for the CPS? This means owning or regularly driving an Alfa (old or new) as opposed to an Associate member whom does not. See the Club's Association Rules; number 7.1 for Membership types.
Frank is a full member as he owns an Alfa. So his other car (in this case his Holden) is eligble to go onto the CPS.
If you go financial member criteria only (regardless Full or Associate), then potentially the number of Associate members could go past the 10% of total Associations membership rule (Rule 7.4); thus in breach of our own Rules.
Some options to get the ball rolling...
If you are a financial AROCA member (maybe you should own an Alfa as a prerequisite for full membership? Not sure what the requirement is.):
1. Any eligible car or motorbike can apply for AROCA CPS? Why not? Vicroads doesn't have an issue with this. Naturally RWC should be a requirement in accordance with club policy. My BMW motorcycle has a permit under this regime.
2. Only Alfa Romeo cars (are there any motorbikes?) can be put on AROCA CPS? Why deny this flexibility to Alfa-owning club members? I'd only support this if administering the non-Alfas represent a workload beyond what is fair and reasonable to impose upon our wonderful volunteer team.
3. You need to have at least one Alfa on CPS to have other non-Alfas on AROCA CPS? See below.
4. You need to have an Alfa (modern or on CPS) to put a car on AROCA CPS? Maybe the deal should be that you need to own an Alfa -- either modern or CPS-qualifying -- to have access to CPS for a non-Alfa? This goes back to my opening premise that to be a full AROCA member you need to own an Alfa?
So for mine, there are two issues here. One relates to membership criteria and the other to administering the CPS processes.
Happy to support Option 4.
Thank you to all contributors.
All good input thus far.
I have been chatting with Ross and I can confirm the committees desire not to adversely impact any club member. Ross has asked me to develop a "one pager" discussion paper with options and thoughts. I will deliver this asap for the committee to consider so we can provide clarity on non-Alfas in the AROCA Vic. Club Permit Scheme.
Once I have feedback I will pass it on.
In the meantime please continue to provide your thoughts.
Best Regards
Phil
Thank you for the invitation to contribute.
I would be best classed as a 'lurker' at AROCA, a potential member and Club permit holder with the AROCA... who has attended AROCA track days as a visitor/pit crew over a number of years and know of the quality of the club and events.
I'm between a rock and hard place with membership, car permits and licence requirements... and this current discussion is pertinent.
We have a modern Alfa along with a non-Alfa track car on the CPS, and I am a L2S holder and would like to take part in events that are closer to Melbourne, (I am a current PIARC member and Comms operator who finds PI too 'full' a day now).
I for one would benefit if the AROCA did accept non-Alfa cars on the CPS (and I would hope be able to contribute to the AROCA) .
(Not sure how I would obtain a RWC for a track car to move it from PIARC to the AROCA, but that is another discussion).
I'm in favour of option 4. As Victor points out - CPS can be made available to 'full members' only, those who are actually Alfa Romeo owners.
However - I'd suggest this be a guideline, and not something that is checked for every member. Avoid adding extra labour to the volunteers who administer the club permit scheme. If significant abuse of the permit scheme within the club is detected then tighten it up.
Nothing sucks the life out of the world like excessive introduction of policies and procedures and discussion papers, especially where there's no proven cause for concern.
Quote from: Evan Bottcher on January 04, 2015, 12:32:32 PM
I'm in favour of option 4. As Victor points out - CPS can be made available to 'full members' only, those who are actually Alfa Romeo owners.
However - I'd suggest this be a guideline, and not something that is checked for every member. Avoid adding extra labour to the volunteers who administer the club permit scheme. If significant abuse of the permit scheme within the club is detected then tighten it up.
Nothing sucks the life out of the world like excessive introduction of policies and procedures and discussion papers, especially where there's no proven cause for concern.
+1
Fair to say option 4 with Victor's thoughts as an overlay is where my head is at.
Evan, your last paragraph is very much at the front of mind. Pragmatism over process!
Option 4. slight addition to wording "modern or on CPS or Alfa Race car" ;)
Nice ;D
If we use Victor's suggestion of full member vs associate member then you'd be covered also.
Can some numbers be added to the discussion?, for example...
1. Total Number of AROCA vic financial members, broken down into full and associate?
2. Number of Alfas on CPS?
3. Number of non Alfas on CPS, both for full members and associate?
What are the current rules to be on the AROCA CPS?
I'm in favour of option 1.
I have another scenario.
I have my Fulvia through the CPS with our club, has been for circa 15 years, since at that time there was no Lancia club accredited for the CPS.
It is a shared ownership car with my brother, 50/50.
Since the Fulvia's rego happens to be in his name our club membership is through his name(per the rules). (at the time, the club refused to let us have a family membership).
He doesn't own an alfa at the moment but I have two.
I am sure we have many situations where cars are registered in different names etc, to suit personal circumstances etc.
If we audited this in the club I suspect we'll find many similar examples.
I'm not sure how the proposals here affect my situation. In the real world I am a paying member of the club and alfa (and lancia owner). I don't expect any changes should affect me.
Adam
This all seems to have escalated from a pretty simple question, which could have been answered with a yes/no, according to current rules. Opinions are all very well, everyone has one, but unless there is clear evidence of abuse of the process, why has this even come to this point?
I know long-time members of the club that have never had an Alfa, but joined because of the excellent social and track events, and the camaraderie of like-minded enthusiasts. Personally, I think it's a possibility in the future that I might be Alfa-less for a short time, but would still want other vehicles on the scheme, and I wouldn't want to leave the club just because I didn't have an Alfa, it's a great club.
As Phil says, pragmatism is the key here. Unless it's obvious that the scheme is being abused, leave well enough alone. Our rules on RWC compliance for the CPS pretty much weed anyone out that would want to rort it anyway, and the rules leave the club with no liability. I think anything other than option 1 would annoy more people than it would placate, and would certainly result in losing more members than gaining.
Sheldon,
more or less, the opinions garnered support your position. I think that the discussion in the thread reveals that the Option 1, common sense approach should continue to apply.
And for nothing else, whilst cumbersome and anecdotal, it has served that purpose.
well I have done it again
I now own Alfa 33.
in to work on Wednesday to arrange RWC.
from I could tell it needs a wheel bearing and exhaust
right hand front window does not work.
once RWC that will go on cps.
the hunt is now on for another alfa.
Just catching up with this discussion.
I have a non-Alfa under CPS, but through that particular car's club, not AROCA. Mainly so I could be involved with their events as well as AROCA's. My Alfa is under full registration.
Whilst supporting Option 1 (any financial member, full or associate, can apply for a club permit for non-Alfas through AROCA), if there is any concern about the CPS being abused by non-Alfa owning members, perhaps the Club could request from any Associate applying for a club permit member a brief, written explanation as to why they aren't applying for their club permit through that car's own club. Any dubious explanation can then be elevated to committee for approval before proceeding. This should weed out the abusers, if indeed there are any?
Jim Picot
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on January 05, 2015, 03:10:28 PM
I know long-time members of the club that have never had an Alfa, but joined because of the excellent social and track events, and the camaraderie of like-minded enthusiasts. Personally, I think it's a possibility in the future that I might be Alfa-less for a short time, but would still want other vehicles on the scheme, and I wouldn't want to leave the club just because I didn't have an Alfa, it's a great club.
Excellent point.
I am all in favour of the pragmatic approach.
Have to admit I was surprised to see a Ford Telstar on 'H'-plates, but with reflection I can understand why a Suzuki Vitara might be regarded as classic/historic in a broader sense.
Quote from: massiveluvbuddy67 on January 02, 2015, 10:38:29 AM
Quote from: Frank Musco on January 02, 2015, 01:25:27 AM
I currently have one car on an AROCA club permit, a Holden. I used it to tow my unregistered sud to track days. Thought it was a great idea? I wanted to put the sud on the CPS, but a roadworthy for a track car in AROCA? LOL. Guess you have to know someone...? I know of a sud track car that had to go to another car club to get a club permit. LOL again. So disappointing.
Hi Frank,
Pragmatism will always reign over process.
Your car is already in the AROCA CPS scheme, your Holden renewal will be processed without issue.
I have escalated to Ross, Paul B, Anthony and David for advice on processing non-Alfa CPS applications.
Having said that I am keen to elicit feedback from forum members too.
Some options to get the ball rolling...
If you are a financial AROCA member:
1. Any eligible car or motorbike can apply for AROCA CPS?
2. Only Alfa Romeo cars (are there any motorbikes?) can be put on AROCA CPS?
3. You need to have at least one Alfa on CPS to have other non-Alfas on AROCA CPS?
4. You need to have an Alfa (modern or on CPS) to put a car on AROCA CPS?
We have many non-Alfas on CPS already.
IMHO, option 1 may be the easiest to administer.
Option 3 is a suggestion I have put forth but has an element of restriction that clearly adversely impacts well intentioned club members - see Frank's earlier post.
Option 4 was suggested by Brad and, on reflection, could be a good compromise.
Thoughts please? The CPS is a service for club members and I am confident we have enough senior, mature members who will ensure the CPS process is not abused.
Many Thanks
Phil
Colleagues,
I spoke with Ross tonight and the committee are endorsing option 1 for financial full club members.
There is no desire, nor intent, to adversely impact current members.
If a new member application is received with a request for a club permit for a non-Alfa, appropriate questions will be asked about why the Alfa Club and not a club representing the marque of the car in the CPS application.
As ever, each application will treated on a case by case basis.
Best Regards
Phil
Club Permit Officer