Hello Victorian Alfisti,
My name's Michael, I'm an AROCA member from SA. I'm currently looking at buying a 1973 2000 Berlina from Victoria and i was wondering if any of you could help me.
I've had a chat to a few of the Alfa guys here in SA and they're in much the same boat as me. These cars change hands so rarely that I (well, we) don't have a good feel for how much I should be paying (unlike spiders and coupes). So I was wondering if anyone has had any Berlina experience and can shed any light on pricing. I realise this is a "it's worth what someone is willing to par for it" situation, like any other, but i was hoping to get a little more specific than that.
Here is a link to the car. I'm planning to fly from SA to have a look/drive next week.
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Alfa-Romeo-2000-1973/SSE-AD-2758492/?Cr=1&sdmvc=1 Is 13 grand a little steep or worth it for a car in seemingly very good condition.
The story goes that that car was bought only a year ago to turn into a hill climb car, but since realising how rare they are, and even more so in this condition, the current owner decided to sell this on and strip his Fiat for racing instead. Apparently the car has perfect compression, it's a little lowered on King Springs and "handles extremely well," it was resprayed 12 years ago in the "original colour and is showing no signs of rust" other than a small patch of surface rust below the drivers door. Every single switch, light, clock, gauge, etc, works, it has no oil leaks and a silky smooth gearbox (including 2nd!!), and recently passed it's roadworthy inspection "with flying colours." On the negative side it comes with only a years worth of service history so the test drive and the owner's word is all i will have to go on, unless any of you have come across this car in your travels and can tell me anything about it?
Any help at all with pricing this fine car would be greatly appreciated. My feeling is that 13 grand is a little on the expensive side given that Berlinas are the comparatively unloved 105 (compared to Giulia Supers, Spiders, Coupes) that they are, and given it has no service history. But i could be completely wrong. It does look very clean! Thoughts?
Cheers,
Michael
105alive, 13000 might seem a steep price to pay but you have to look at what it would cost you to build up something the same or as good as this one.
You could buy a car that is in poor condition for a lot less and end up spending far more than the 13000.
At least buying a completed car you shouldn't have much to do.
Berlinas have never achieved the 'cult' status of Giulia Ti's or Supers so their prices never really reflected their value or worth. Others may have a better idea of the real value of a Berlina, as there are not a lot of them around these days.
Before you make a final decision about this one, try and find out who did the work and when it was done and talk to them. Have a talk to Luigi at Ital Service in Adelaide.
Hi Barry,
Yes, that's very good point about how much it would cost to build up a similar car. Dad and I are VERY near the end of a 73 2000 GTV restoration and the bills certainly do add up!!!!! I am not looking for another project at the moment, so i'd much rather spend the extra and buy a nice one. I'm just wondering how much that 'extra' represents.
I will give Luigi at Ital Sevice a call, thanks. Can you also recommend a good Alfa garage / expert in Victoria that could inspect the Berlina for me?
There are a few Alfa specialists in Melbourne who would be able to give you a fair assessment of the Berlina. Depends on where the car.
WOW-the colour and condition looks great.I have never seen a berlina in that colour but really suits it.As for price i dont know.If it still has the limited slip diff and is relatively original(colour etc).Be sure to check 1/4 panels above wheels,jacking points and rear taillights as they like to rust in those areas.I have a couple and thoroughly enjoy blasting around in my 2lt.Louigi is a wealth of info and if car is in SA Ital Service would be of great assistance.Again love the colour.Good luck
I'll contribute two comments:
- these cars are much more highly valued in the US and Europe than in Australia. Don't know why, but rough ones in the US can fetch $4-5k but rough one here are worth pretty much zilch. Good ones there sell for $15-20k.
- to be worth good money they need a history as well as condition.
Whether that means this car is worth $13k, don't know. It does sound steep and you'd want to be absolutely sure you're not likely to want to onsell any time soon.
Thanks for your replies Barry, 17fitty, and aggie.
Barry, the car is located in Oak Park, which is just to the east of Tullamarine and the Airport. So any alfa garages on the north side of the CBD would be fine i guess. Then again, I'd be in a Berlina so why wouldn't i be happy to drive anywhere!
Aggie, it's interesting that they're worth more in the US. I wonder why Australian Alfisti haven't followed suit. They're not as interesting looking as the Giulia sedans, but still a handsome looking car i think. Maybe one day they'll gain a following. This vehicles may be in good condition, but it's lack of history is not great for me, or the next possible buyer. Unfortunately I would be planning to sell this vehicle on in a few years. Hmmm...
17fitty, thanks for the well wishes. Yeah, i agree. This car looks very nice in this colour. I will have a good look around the car for rust if and when i go to see it, and particularly in the areas that you mentioned. Ive attached a picture of the rust below the drivers door that the owner sent me. Sorry it is not better quality. To me, this does not look like surface rust but something more sinister bubbling up from within the sill, but maybe that's just my scared bank account talking. What do you think? I'll also try Luigi at Ital on Monday.
Thanks all!
Quote from: 105Alive on June 29, 2014, 01:42:22 AM
Thanks for your replies Barry, 17fitty, and aggie.
Barry, the car is located in Oak Park, which is just to the east of Tullamarine and the Airport. So any alfa garages on the north side of the CBD would be fine i guess. Then again, I'd be in a Berlina so why wouldn't i be happy to drive anywhere!
Aggie, it's interesting that they're worth more in the US. I wonder why Australian Alfisti haven't followed suit. They're not as interesting looking as the Giulia sedans, but still a handsome looking car i think. Maybe one day they'll gain a following. This vehicles may be in good condition, but it's lack of history is not great for me, or the next possible buyer. Unfortunately I would be planning to sell this vehicle on in a few years. Hmmm...
17fitty, thanks for the well wishes. Yeah, i agree. This car looks very nice in this colour. I will have a good look around the car for rust if and when i go to see it, and particularly in the areas that you mentioned. Ive attached a picture of the rust below the drivers door that the owner sent me. Sorry it is not better quality. To me, this does not look like surface rust but something more sinister bubbling up from within the sill, but maybe that's just my scared bank account talking. What do you think? I'll also try Luigi at Ital on Monday.
Thanks all!
I would suggest that given the location of the car, Bruno at Maranello-Pursang Motors in Brunswick is the closest shop to have the car inspected.
That photo looks like a show stopper (unless you have the skills to do body work yourself) for $13k - dreaming. I think you are right, that is not surface rust and you can bet your first born that the other sill be the same (unless it has been rectified already).
Good luck
Phil
Pay for the inspection. Bruno will put it up on the hoist and tell it straight.
Michael,
I would have thought a top Berlina would be in the 10-12k range (what decent classic car can you get below 10k these days?).
The car in question, well having seen that pic , the only way it would be worth 13k is if it was near 'concourse' and needed no work at all.
That pic doesn't rule it out, merely gives you (once the inspection is done) a point at which to start 'negotiations' .
Good luck hope it works out well, just love the Berlinas and Guilias and GTV's - what the heck all the 105's!
P.S. For me a perfect Berlina would be (dunno what others think) a car with the externals of a 2000 with the interior of a S2 1750.
Michael. Given the number of berlinas I have seen this one is in the upper area but 13k not quite, the sill looks like some work probably both. However in saying that its just metal, I have a berlina that needs metal work but interior and jewellery etc is perfect ,these things are becoming irreplaceable .On that basis if you can use the rust as a bargain point, with it done you will have a top car one of a few that has survived the 80s yank spider conversions and todays racers. If you want to talk message me I have amassed a lot of berlina stuff for my sedan and ute. john
Hi all,
I was at work all day but I'm finally free to do much more important Alfa related things.
Phill, thanks for recommending Bruno at Maranello-Pursang. Brunswick is definitely nice and close. I will give him a call on Monday. Hopefully he knows a thing or two about rusty sills! I hope you're not right about the other sill being a similar story, but I realise that you probably are... time will tell...
GTV-074, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, hopefully he will negotiate down to 9 to 10 grand in light of the potential sill rust and lack of history. I know this is on the cheaper side, but it leaves some money in the kitty for repairs which will give me some peace of mind. Berlinas, Giulias, GTVs AND spiders are all exceptional cars. Oh, and the Montreal. I'd happily have one of each! As for the perfect Berlina, i think we have nearly opposite tastes! ;D I much prefer the grille and headlight arrangement Alfa used on the 1750 Berlina. The interior... I love both the 1750 and the 2000, though i'd probably lean toward the 2000 dash even though i know it's more conventional. Lower it a bit. Add some Alfaholics GTA 15x7 alloy wheels and you have my ideal.
John, yes it would be very nice to own one of the few surviving Berlinas. At least we got a few extra Spiders out of the ashes of the Berlinas that didn't make it I suppose. If i end up buying it i'll definitely keep you in mind as a good parts contact. Thanks for the offer.
I'm still interested to hear from anyone who knows of the car?? Unlikely i know, but worth a shot...
Cheers,
Michael
Hi Michael,
Been around Berlinas a bit and havent seen this one before. As for pricing, its a little hard to say - yes it needs sill repair.. But think of it another way - the interior is in very good nick, the dash has no sun cracking which is common in Aus. Berlina interior parts have become very sparse in recent times.
Also.. how many Berlinas do you see for sale? It's a tough one. If I think about what I sold my 1750 Berlina for 7 years ago (about a 90% car) and just increased that based onn inflation it would be more than this, and that's without any increase in the capital value.
I'd certainly try and get some cash off, but it's not that far off a fair price for a rare car.
Hi Michael,
I've been watching Berlinas coming up for sale for a long time now, fantasising about the day that I can return to owning a 105.
I usually just lurk here and I hate my first post to be like this, but I'd want to know this if I were you.
That car was for sale earlier this year for $3,500, both on ebay and carpoint. I can't see any reason why it has increased in value that much since then - especially looking at that pic.
While I think it was undervalued at that price (Berlinas are in general), I wouldn't want to be the one paying the difference unless the owner can offer some genuine reasons for the price hike.
I hope it ends up being yours though, great cars.
You have just confirmed my suspicions. I saw the car earlier this year and was interested in buying it but was too late. I thought it looked like the same car but wasn't sure. Like yourself I would be interested to see how the seller justifies the price increase. :o
HELLO ALL!
Thanks Pete, Ntj, and Garibaldi for your messages.
I came on to the forum to give a happy update but now i'm not quite sure where i stand with this car. I had managed to talk him down from 13 to 10 grand which i was reasonably happy with given the excellent advice (thanks again guys!) i have received on here. This was until reading that he potentially bought the car for $3,500 a very short time ago. I feel a bit unsteadied now, though I am not sure if i should.
I have followed Phill's advice and have the car booked in with Bruno at Marenello Pur Sang for a pre-purchase inspection tomorrow at 4. I will have a think about whether I will still go ahead with that.
Ntj and Garibaldi, are you 110% sure that this is the same Berlina? Thanks for sharing this info. I am glad you did. I am not sure i want to be the one taking the 285% price increase. I was very excited to own this Berlina though... hmmm... more updates to come...
Hi Michael,
I'm positive it's the same car. Same colour, condition and year model aside, The plastic gear gaiter and non-original knob, and trim rings/wheel colour are the giveaways.
When it went up on carpoint at this new price (originally $14,000) I found the expired ebay listing and compared, but unfortunately that's gone. When it was originally advertised the owner mentioned in the ad his concern that someone would buy the car and steal the diff, but must have done some reading on USA Berlina prices and decided to go upmarket.
In Sydney there was a beautiful green Berlina 2l first advertised around $7,000 and that struggled to sell.
Hope it works out somehow.
Likewise, it sure looks like the same car to me. Given the scarcity of Berlinas it would be highly unlikely that there would be two identical cars still in existance here.
Hi guys,
So sadly i have decided not to go ahead with the purchase. What a bummer! I was getting VERY excited!
I called the current owner and asked what work he had done to it since buying it in light of the 3,500 price news. He at first said that it was not the same car. Then he got somewhat cagey and said that the price was what it was and that he didn't want to talk about it, and didn't tell me what he'd done over the time he has owned it. "10 Grand. Take it or leave it". So i said i'd leave it at this stage. :( :( :( Perhaps he was cagey because it is NOT the same car after all, just a REMARKABLY similar one, or perhaps he was cagey as his entrepreneurial venture was no longer unfolding as he'd planned. Who knows! From previous conversations with him I know that he has had the car serviced, detailed inside and out, and got the car through roadworthy in the time he's had it. He was also possibly the one who fitted the King Springs. So he has done that at least.
I'm not sure if I've made the right decision, but i don't feel comfortable paying 10 grand for a car that potentially sold for 3,500 a short time ago. I think it was undervalued at $3,500 as it does look very clean, and would have paid perhaps 8 grand for it, but not 10. That's just me though, hopefully this thread can serve as a resource to any of you that do end up being the next owner. It is a beautiful Berlina at the end of the day!!!
Thanks again to all of you for your advice. Forza Alfa Romeo and all that!
Cheers,
Michael
Like many others here it seem, I've been on the look out for a Berlina for a while and saw both ads for this car. I have no doubt its the same car. I had assumed that the owner started reading the BB, saw how much these go for in the US and cancelled the ebay auction (it seemed to end early), only to relist it on Carsales for $14k.
There have been good driver berlinas on Gumtree and ebay in the $4-8k range over the last 18 months. Personally if I was going to spend $14K on a 105 sedan, I'd be looking at something like this Giulia Super on Gumtree: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bentleigh/cars-vans-utes/1970-alfa-romeo-giulia-sedan/1050714638
Sure it'll need some work, but you'd thank yourself in the long run...
I'm going to sound like a bit overly cautious here, so take it as you wish - I certainly mean no offence. Just remember when you post here that this is public. The owner of the car being advertised could easily find this, and probably wouldn't be very happy about his loss of sale. It's not hard to track an online persona to a real life identity.
I'm sure you can all take care of yourselves, but I always advise people - the private message function is a good way to privately deliver a message to someone.