Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

State Divisions => Victoria => North East Victoria => Topic started by: jimay3677 on June 26, 2014, 04:45:01 PM

Title: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on June 26, 2014, 04:45:01 PM
Something is wrong with my jts. It hasn't used any oil in nearly 2000k. I don't know if I should be concerned lol.  Obviously hpr10 is a good oil.

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: redsky on June 28, 2014, 10:28:14 PM
Hope it's not like my 2010 Forester, the only time it stopped using oil was when the sump was dry!
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: colcol on July 01, 2014, 10:23:11 AM
Your oil consumption doesn't go down in JTS's, what happens is you do a lot of city driving and the oil gets contaminated with crap and fuel and it seems the oil level stays the same, but your oil level is decreasing and the contaminate level is increasing.
The way to get over it is to take it on a good run, like an Alfa Romeo Sunday drive or a bit of a blast along the freeway, and you will burn the crap out of your oil and your oil level will drop, and when you check it, seem like the oil use is out of control.
Some oils are better at controlling oil consumption, if you are doing lots of city driving and short trips and your car isn't warming up, change the oil more regulary, like twice as often as recomended or start saving up for new camshafts, Colin.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 02, 2014, 08:58:12 PM
I live in the country and travel 100k to work so am always giving it a good run

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 02, 2014, 09:03:52 PM
I switched to hpr10 (10w50) at the last 5000k oil change from a 5w60 ten tenths so I'm thinking hpr10 is a pretty good oil. I picked up some castrol edge cheap so will see how that goed

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 02, 2014, 11:03:32 PM
Eeewww castrol edge?   :o

I swapped from Penrite 10 tenths premium 5 to Castrol edge last year...

Straight away the tappets started screaming at me and oil consumption went up by about 20%...

Went back to Penrite Premium 5 and she's silent again, and consumption is 'normal'... which by every other car standards is rubbish! haha

As ColCol says, it's the city driving that uses up the oil with all the contamination going on.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: colcol on July 03, 2014, 09:30:38 AM
There are different grades of Castrol Edge, for the JTS motor use 10-60.
The city driving contaminates the oil with by products of petrol and isn't a good lubricant and the first thing to suffer is the camshafts, the lobes wear off.
I have used many brands and types of oil in the JTS and have not noticed much difference, i even used Castrol Magnatec and expecting all sorts of things to happen, but it was fine, Colin.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 03, 2014, 10:21:38 AM
Yep, it was Castrol edge 10w60 - that the only spec the car has ever had...

But I agree most oils you can't tell the difference, however with the castrol, the car sounded like a tractor.

I've used Martini 10w60 too, that was good, but there was still a little tappet noise...

The Penrites the only oil I've used that makes the engine completely quite.

I suspect its because if the higher zinc content. Possibly also because it's 100% PAO... not sure?

It's aussie made so that's a bonus too :)

Just as an aside - ColCol were you at the Alfamen tech night?  Matt was saying that given the flat tappet design in these engines, it's important to use an oil with a high zinc content anyway.. he uses HPR10 as youget the best of both worlds - good oil, cheap...  I think the Edge is one of those low zinc oils...? not sure..?
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 03, 2014, 01:51:14 PM
Longer reply not using mobile.

When I got the car it was running Castrol Magnatec 10-40 which the dealer put in, I changed over to Penrite 5w-60 and saw usage at around 1L/2000k.  I've since switched to Penrite HPR10 10w50.
After picking up the Castrol Edge on sale I checked the oil and it's still sitting at the full line, I can't remember exactly how many k's it's been but the car gets driven around 500-700k a week so it would be atleast 1500k on HPR10
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Steve S on July 04, 2014, 12:44:13 AM
Yep, it was Castrol edge 10w60 - that the only spec the car has ever had...

I've used Martini 10w60 too, that was good, but there was still a little tappet noise...

The Penrites the only oil I've used that makes the engine completely quite.

I suspect its because if the higher zinc content. Possibly also because it's 100% PAO... not sure?



Matt was saying that given the flat tappet design in these engines, it's important to use an oil with a high zinc content anyway.. he uses HPR10 as youget the best of both worlds - good oil, cheap...  I think the Edge is one of those low zinc oils...? not sure..?



Zn is a very useful additive but it is not the only anti wear additive. And more Zn does not automatically mean more protection. Zn comes in different forms in order to achieve different things too. e.g. Zn maybe formulated as an antioxidant, rather than anti wear, which is common in heavy diesel engine oil. Zn formulated as a strong antioxidant has poor antiwear performance. If an oil was formulated with a poor quality base stock it will generally oxidise more easily, so could be loaded with higher levels of antioxidants to compensate.

The low Zn formulations you read about in everyday oils causing issues (or not) are mostly restricted to North America where these formulations make up the bulk of the oil on the market. The vast majority of formulations in Europe and here in Australia have always maintained conventional levels of Zn.

Edge 10w60 is a PAO oil. It has high levels of Zn, similar to HPR, similar to other A3/B4 formulations. Martini 10w60 is low Zn as it is a C3 formulation which is odd for a 10w60. I donít know any manufacturers requesting a C3 10w60. C3 maybe low Zn but it still meets the same wear performance as A3/B4. The primary reason A3/B4 formulations with high levels of Zn still exist in mainstream products to ensure long service life when used with variable quality fuels. They are also cheaper.

Alfa engines may have "flat tappets" by definition but the term really originated from old solid lifter pushrod engines with large valves, heavy springs and rocker ratios that place high pressures on the cams.  A lot of plain Jane Toyotas, Hondas, Mitsubishis etc all technically have flat tappets too but as spring pressures are low they get along on std oil just fine. I've never seen a worn cam on a Toyota.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 04, 2014, 12:52:54 AM
This is where knowledge is king.

Given that information, I have no idea why both my GTA and JTS's run better on the Penrite premium range compared to the other oils... I can't explain why... A lot of it will be placebo, but there's no doubt there is zero tappet noise using Penrite... Even after a 3 or 4 days of no use..

However on the castrol the tappets rattled away all the time,  they never stopped!

To be fair, I've only tried Castrol, Martini and Penrite so far..

In regards to the reasons - after Steve's explanation, I have nothing. No idea why the difference. :-\

I may run the GTA on Amsoil one day soon, but it will only be out of curiosity not need.

Steve, Have you looked into the Penrite specs at all?  what's your thoughts?  And, they bang on about the additional zinc content - is it antiwear or antioxident in this particular oil?
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Steve S on July 04, 2014, 01:20:13 AM
A lot of people claim Mobil oil makes their engines noisy and I must admit my Toyota did seem quite noisy when running on Mobil. I actually used a Penrite oil at my last oil change and I too immediately noticed it was a lot quieter than before with the Mobil. The problem with this sort of observation is there is nothing to compare it with; any other oil on the shelf may have had the same result too. That oil change was done well over 6 months back now and to me the engine sounds quite noisy again. Maybe itís noisy as the oil is old and needs to be changed? I do believe it has slowly got nosier as the time has gone by and that it will most likely be quieter again after the next oil change.

Given all the claims on engine noise I read about, I find it interesting that I have never seen a proper study done to conclude audible noise has any bearing on engine wear whatsoever.

Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 06, 2014, 05:47:27 AM
You have a good point, noise may have no bearing whatsoever...

Except I prefer a quite engine :)  The noise is meant to come out the back!  8)
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 07, 2014, 07:48:13 PM
Mine actually seems quieter on the edge (except for the hole in exhuast somewhere) will be going back to penrite on the next change due to $$

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Thevak on July 07, 2014, 08:53:16 PM
Good time to buy Penrite from Repco with 20% discount using major car clubs membership cards such asRACV for the month July.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: colcol on July 07, 2014, 09:10:02 PM
The Penrite 'Full Zinc' full synthetic 15-60, the zinc may cause problems with the catalytic convertor, thats why they got rid of zinc years ago, as it was poisoning the convertors, having said that note of caution, i am using it my JTS, but will most likely use something else at the next oil change, Colin.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 07, 2014, 09:38:14 PM
Good time to buy Penrite from Repco with 20% discount using major car clubs membership cards such asRACV for the month July.

Awesome! Thank you :)
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 07, 2014, 10:21:27 PM
Fair enough Colcol..

Whilst I've always used 10w60, prior to switching to an oil with zinc, I used mobile for years then Martini (which is zero zinc, or close to it) and had to replace my cams.

Since switching to zinc, thanks to a very knowledge member on another forum giving us some great advice - my cams are still in perfect condition - after 3 years and just under 90,000 kms.

Yes, zinc will over time kill cats - but it's a very long time and there are other factors that come into play there too... in my case, my cat's are perfectly fine despite using this oil.

I have a feeling that the thicker Castrol Edge products also have high zinc levels.. although i'm not 100% sure on that.

I guess to add to my resolve on this, which I totally accept is based on other peopels knowledge, not my own expertise - Matt from Alfamen spent a great deal of time on this subject on the last 932 tech night... He explained the importance of zinc in certain engine designs which include the TS, JTS and Busso range. He acknowledged the Cat risk.. but when you weigh it up, the choice is clear.

His experience of worn cams, rings and other bits and pieces was not down to viscosity but oil type - people using modern oils in what is essentially, old engines.  He uses a range of oils including penrite.. but all have higher levels of zinc.

It's not the be in and end all of the subject - there are other factors of course.. but there's my take.

 :)
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: colcol on July 07, 2014, 10:35:02 PM
The biggest problem with a direct injection engine is oil dilution, that is petrol and crap getting into the oil system and petrol is a solvent, and its lubricating your engine, and with the JTS engine, the first things to go are the camshaft lobes.
No brand of oil will save you from this, i indicated that i wasn't going to use Penrite 'full zinc' at my next oil change, but i will use it on the change after that, just so those poor old cats don't get too much Zinc!
And you don't use the modern 5-30 fully synthetics in the older range of Alfa Romeo engines, just use what Alfa Romeo recommended, [which wasn't Selenia].
Just like you don't use 40-70 oil in the new range of Alfa Romeo / Fiat engines.
Lets agree on changing your oil on time and with the JTS, if its running around the city, change it at half the recommended klms, Colin.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 07, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Agreed! :)
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Steve S on July 07, 2014, 11:36:16 PM
High ZDDP levels will only kill cats at a faster rate than lower Zn oils. Lower ZDDP oil will still kill a cat fast if you burn a lot of oil, so it's not a complete cure. There are ZDDP free engine oils btw.

Alfa of course recommends Selenia Racing which is a very high ZDDP oil, at least as high as Penrite HPR so Alfa don't think it's a problem for the cats, or don't care.

In Australia its hard to find a low ZDDP oil in a viscosity grade you would use in an Alfa as they generally only come in 20 and 30 multigrades.







Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 08, 2014, 12:24:40 AM

In Australia its hard to find a low ZDDP oil in a viscosity grade you would use in an Alfa as they generally only come in 20 and 30 multigrades.

I didn't know that.. fair enough!
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 08, 2014, 05:27:13 PM
No matter how my car is driven I always dump oil at 5-7k noway in hell would I go 15k or even 10k

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 14, 2014, 06:55:42 PM
Omg! I won't be wasting more money on castrol edge 10w60. Compared to penrite ten tenths 5w60 and hpr 10 it's the worst for consumption. Just over 1000k and it was 1/3 below max. I'll go back to hpr10 which barely used a drop.

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 14, 2014, 06:57:26 PM
I rest my case!  8)  ;D
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 14, 2014, 07:00:37 PM
For sure. I had to crawl under the car and check for leaks. I checked the oil twice in 2000k on hpr10 (oil bottle and funnel in hand) and returned the bottle to the shed without adding a drop

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Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: Alfa156Melb1 on July 14, 2014, 07:02:29 PM
Do you live in the city or suburbs? And was this 1000 a trip away... extended drive?

Edit.. Forget that - you live in Rutherglen

Often if you mostly do short trips, say tot he shops and back, then do a long one - there'll be a lot of fuel and moisture burnt off which accounts for rapid oil loss...

Given where you live, I doubt that was the cause.
Title: Re: Oil consumption issue
Post by: jimay3677 on July 14, 2014, 09:03:29 PM
Nah. 100k round trip 5-6 days a week at 100k/h.  And the usage was way less doing the same on hpr10.  I've been using penrite exclusively for my last three cars, TF magna v6, Ford Probe, BA Falcon I sold that tank before doing an oil change I disliked it so much lots of power but handled like a brick and had no soul. The Probe was a beautiful car with awesome handling but it had been badly neglected by previous owners and I got sick of fixing it, I resprayed it in acrylic and got to the cut and buff stage and couldn't find the motivation to keep going. Of course the new owner has had no issues and finished the respray and I want it back lol.

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