Sat for a long while, will need some love to get running...bit of an unknown....but I'm super excited :-)
Very cool Mike - great to see another one of these pop up and especially to see it end up with a keen owner like you. When do we see the twin-charge project start lol! Just kidding.... ;D
Haha, thanks. No twincharge for this one, I'm thinking nice and stock...maybe some suspension and tickle the engine in NA form. Step one...get it running, and hunt for rust!
I hope it's saveable, they are such a wonderful Alfa.
Looks like an interesting 'barn', is there a couple of Fiats back there?
Should be able to save it, I have resigned myself to it being a parts car, should that not prove to be the case, but I am hopefull.
'barn' is private so will reserve commenting, not my place.
If anyone has a mint interior for a Sud QV I'd be very interested, this one is complete, but dash has cracks and seat material faded. PM me.
Mike
Great to hear of another TiQV and hope you can save the car. Is the issue rust?
Don't be concerned with faded interior as can easily re-dye the red Ti's (fabric synthetic marker pen from Spotlight). Should be able to get many required parts from Peter at Alfasud Parts in the UK but only 250 TiQQV's were sold here so you will be lucky to find any immaculate interior pieces.
Enjoy the car!
Paul
Hi Paul,
the doors dont sit quite right, point up a little at rear..has me concerned it might have had a tap, we shall see. Rust under the battery tray in a big way, not sure if structural yet but I see the ground :-). The drive front floor apon closer inspection is being held together by the underbody deadner, will lift carpet tomorrow to suss that one out.
Engine oil level horribly low, can't beleive I forgot to check that on the day. Oil filter is small type and on so tight my normal apparatus (more suited to larger filters) just slips. Need to find a better tool tomorrow, or revert to screwdriver...
Dropped fuel tank, dumped fuel and replaced and filled. Glad I did, fuel very yellowed and 20 odd liters of the stuff...not sure where to put it all....haha.
Battery in, have not kicked over, but lights seems to work. One fuse blown, replaced, will be interesting to see if it blows again.
Original alfa romeo caset player still in car, she's original and unabused....but also badly maintained. We shall see tomorrow if there is an engine worth putting a timing belt on!!
Cheers
Mike
OK,
so almost have the old girl started, so close to firing. I would like to know what ignition dizzy I have, I've taken some pics. Hope someone can confirm. In addition, can they still be purchased, or does someone have one for sale in better condition than that shown...or...can they be refurbed?
The car has yet to fire into life, but basically got a flat battery just as it fired on all four for the first time....probably flushing the last of the crap fuel from the carbs (I droped the tank, emptied and refilled given 6+years of idel time).
The ignition leads almost fell appart in my hands, the spark plugs were original marelli ones also looking ancient...and oil level barely registered on the dipstick....I'm expecting the worst, but she spins freely so will give benefit of doubt!
So, have a looks at the pics...believe it or not, the plugs are firing....but not so sure I would not/could not get double firing due to the state of the wires....
To recap...what brand is the ignition and how much can be purchased new?
The Alfasud is one of my favorite cars. For a barn find (kinda) the car looks to be in remarkably good condition. Depending on the severity of the rust it looks like is a great restoration project. Well done on finding it.
Mike
Understand your point re car as cannot doors are a concern - can't think why they would sit up at rear. Whilst heavy, they typically don't sag so strange? Rust under battery tray and floor is not uncommon but is body otherwise rust free?
If car starts and runs, would eventually check oil pump as they can give disastrous problems.
S/h Marelli dizzy should be easy to find. Let me know if you decide to part out.
Good luck.
Paul
Dump all the fluids, oil, coolant, fuel, brake fluid, etc, the petrol is most likely turned to turpentine, if you have got the car to run then, dump theoil and put in a flushing oil or put some supermarket oil and run it for half an hour and dump it, Colin.
Hi guys,
thanks for the interest. Today was a day of progress. The car will be kept, not parted, it's too good. Today has confirmed this.
Colcol, agree, have dumped all fluids. It has new oil, oil filter, fuel filer, tank dropped, emptied and new fuel lines (no fires for me thanks). New battery. New leads, sprk plugs, and airfilter.
I drover her up the road today, coughing and spluttering. I put this down to the dizzy, which I have confirmed as beign Marelli and absulutley f*kd. Thanks to my good mate Dave, a much better one is in the post.
I am yet to check compression, but no spoke from exhaust underload and backoof lloks like rings and seals ok, so fingers crossed. Clutch on the other hand....well she's rooted. So, if anyone knows where I can get a new one, that's on the list.
Next is cam baelt, tensioners and water pump (no more driving till it;s done).
Interestingly, this car was first registered in 1984, as it was a 12/83 build. When it was purchased, it had airconditioning installed at same time. I do not know whether it was since been regased with environmentally compliant gas, but being in WA, it would be nice if this were functional, so will look into it...obviously, right now, it's not funtional after 6-7 years gathering dust in a barn.
Couple of pics from end of day to follow for interest.
Here are some pics of end of day. It's had the dust blown off, but not yet detailed....always a bit scared about putting water on an Alfa...let alone a Sud!!
I should clarify, the car has sat since 2007/8. History a bit sketchy, it's a WA car, so if anyone has details, that would be great. I call it a barn find as it was part fo a larger collection, stored in a factory / barns, hence the dust.
I have to say, it is extremely originaly (factory Alfa romeo tape deck) but maintenance appears poor for at least part of life. Rust in driver floor and under battery tray, panels appear pretty solid, but it is a sud so as I dig, I will no doubt find issues. New (at the time) Pirelli P6000 tyres is a nice touch.
So glad to hear you're keeping it intact Mike. These cars are seriously rare on a global basis now; its amazing just have few have survived in Europe. Literally a handful. Over here in Oz we forget just how quickly they fell apart on those climates; I recall a work colleague of mine in the UK buying a new one in 1981 and it had a rust hole through the middle of the door on delivery.
Good on you for taking this one under your wing. Last of a great series of classic Alfa's.
Quote from: aggie57 on April 07, 2014, 11:25:37 AM
Good on you for taking this one under your wing. Last of a great series of classic Alfa's.
Mike
Congrats on a great find. Even it the intial stages, the car looks great. It is well worth the effort. There are only a handful or so QVs around.
Mine is the same build date although has the radio aerial on the roof? I look forward to see the progress of yours.
I have a spare Haynes Alfasud repair manual at home if you want it, just PM me your address and I will put it in the mail.
BTW, the UK "Alfasud Parts Online" site is worth a good. http://www.alfasud-parts.co.uk/catalog/. They are good to deal with.
Best of luck
Damo
Oh I do like a nice Sud :D
I really hope this one is salvagable - the rust in the floors and battery tray would scare off the faint-hearted but I have faith in you ;) Check the double-skinned firewall as it's supposed to be tricky to repair. Another spot to look is where the front driveshafts pass under the chassis members - that spot on the bottom of the chassis rail is prone to cracking and rust.
As Alister says there aren't too many left in Europe, but they are starting to get restored over there particularly the early ones.
Check: http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-33-sud-and-sprint/
There's a lot of UK Sud and 33 owners on there doing resto jobs, and they bring back cars from the most horrendous rust damage.
Thanks guys,
Yes, I have seen the uk parts on line store. I am grabbing as many parts frmo this guy as I can. He is excellent to deal with. Yet, it is getting hard of course, not much left. Still hunting for an uncracked dash....anyone?!
Off to Korea for a week, will play again on my return when I should be able to swap in a new dizzy and see if that sorts out the misfiring and total lack of torque.
Cheers
Mike
Car sounds like a real goer Mike - fantastic.
Suggest also removing the rear plastic flares and checking for rot and ensure the two b pillar plastic covers on each side are sealed (to avoid moisture in sills under b pillar). An original rust free hatch is almost unique!
Just helped a mate sell his original Aust delivered TiQV to a HK car collector who is about to spend post US$50K on a concours resto so interest in growing (..........finally)!
All the best
Paul
Thanks for the tips guys, I will be taking all this on board for my easter break. At the moment I have not had too much time other than for a quick polish..actually I still have the hatch and drivers side to go, but the pics give the idea...starting to look good. I always have trouble taking a photo of red and getting the colour the right hue, this is about right...
Mike,
Did you check out the other cars? The Giulia Super got sold and transported to Melbourne. What was the Alfetta GT like? Good choice you went for the Sud Ti . Well done :):)
The GT I did only got photos of, but what I did see looked pretty far gone.
Pop quiz: Car idles, but as soon as you apply throttle it coughs splutters, and no matter how many revs, it has stuff all torque and struggles to pull away..
It has fuel, it has spark, timing is not quite right, as I set it on the 'T' mark knowing no better without the manual..which I now have. I rebuilt the marenello dizzy, thinking the weights were a bit sticky after years sitting, not the solution.
Fuel was drained and fresh 98 put in, so not the issue.
Takes ages to fire, suspect have flooded the very hot B9egv plugs (all I had in the shed). Will be off to get some champion N6Y tomorrow.
Clutch appears to be slipping, will sort that as have new one.
Next I'll hunt for vaccuum leaks I guess...and main jet blockage's
Thoughts?
Look down the carby throat and crack the throttle open and see if you see the accellerator pump squirting some fuel down the carby throat, with old petrol, it forms crystals on the jets, and this completely blocks them, and the accelerator diaprahm, after many years will tear or get holes in it and won't pump the fuel, the fuel pump jets are small, about 0.1mm, Colin.
That sounds very likely...my plugs are not as wet as I would expect them to be...hmm. Can the diaphrams still be purchased? And thanks once again Col.
The last time i purchased a 36IDF repair kit was from a carby reconditioning place, it was about $60 per carby, it contains all the gaskets and accellerator pumps, the brand was fuel miser....carby reconditioning places, now dissapeared along with Video shops, Colin.
Ok, so it's alive....and I took it for a drive....good...almost.
I pulled the tops of the carbies, eveything looked in order, pulled all the jetting and made sure each was free of blockage, which they were. Checked that I was getting fuel, each carbie accel pump appeared to be working as a good stream of fuel visible. Noted that driver side carbie was opening too far byt a couple of degrees (past vertical on full throttle). So adjusted it back to vertical and compared with passenger side.
I should point out that I am doing this without a manual...which is a bit of a pain...need to get one.
Anyway, moved dizzy a to a couple of different spots, and got it to fire. There is a red 'T' someone has painted onto the flywheel, and I have it set so that pointer at idle is showing about 15mm further round clockwise from the 'T' when standing in front of engine, if that makes sense. At this point the engine fired straight up, and settled into an idle, but idle was about 1200rpm (when hot) so I backed the idle screws that adjust angle of butterfly at idle back to get 900rpm. Engine idles smoothly, and revs freely when blipped on throttle.
Another oddity I noted is that the cap I have (I have two and both are the same) does not agree with the book (a mate sent me a scan of a page). 1 and 4 are swapped from the book on my cap suck that I have 1,3,4,2. So I swapped 2 and 4 such that the engine would retain the correct firing order of 1324. Still, I though this rather odd.
Now the strange bit. I took it up the road, and it pulls away ok, then drops into a bit of hole between 2000-4000 then seems to get back on it...like a wild cam might feel. So I went back, popped bonnet, put timing light on no1 and revved to 2000rpm to see what movement I had on timing.....none! It did not move at all. It started to move somewhere around 4000rpmm (not sure of rpm as wife got bored and left me to own devices). I understand at 2000rpm I should see timing move to double timing mark (two dash's) and 4500rpm should move to single dash mark on flywheel.
There are two different sized springs on my dizzy, which I thought odd, but I have another dizzy here and it also had two different sized springs. I would have thought they would be the same...
I thoroughly cleaned the dizzy out and reassmebled, it moved much more freely than it did prior to the clean up.
I also noted that when I rev the engine the timing light seems to start missing a few flash's and pausing for a moment before picking up the new timing....normal?
Am I barking up the wrong tree here? I'm happy it is running, but I really want to get the engine revving cleanly through the range.
This timing mark issue and dizzy cap issue is very odd, I have always thought it strange that the cap is wrong. Mine also has 4 on the cap where no 1 plug lead is. It runs fine but it is just enoying.
I have 3 timing marks
T top dead centre
I This is where my timing is set when checked with timing light
II this I thought was the 2000rpm timing mark but at 2000 rpm I am not getting that much advance
III in the manual says 4500 rpm timing mark, I can't find this one.
My car revs smooth and idles perfectly at these settings
I had not really looked at this until Mike and I tried nutting out what is happening with his advance.
Would be great to hear what marks everyone else has there boxer set to.
Who has just mechanical advance, and who has mechanical and vacuum? Mine has both.
Just to let you know Mike, my advance starts to kick in just off idle and moves very smoothly as the revs increase but you have to rev to about 5000 to get near the II mark.
Thanks Dave,
I will check what rpm mine gets to the II mark at tomorrow...don't think the neighbours would approve tonight :-).
Anyway, as a way of saying thanks for the help I have recieved, I took a photo of the sud on my 15inch, grp4 Alfetta rims...for laughs....but gee...lower...some carbon flares.....no..stop...stock!
The carby linkages are designed to go past centre, so that they don't hit a stop and maybe jamb, you need a carby balancer, the 2000rpm - 4000rpm dead spot could have something to do with the carbys being out ao balance, i had the same problem with mine, 3000 RPM, massive flat spot, would not pull 5th gear, had to drop down to 4th.
Try looking on ebay for a second hand workshop manual, Haynes is a good one, make sure it has a supplement for the later models, the Haynes manuals went out of production about 30 years ago, but i did find a new old stock edition, Colin.
Carby balancer would be nice, I agree with you. always meant to make up a plate with 4 vaccuum gauges....maybe now is the time!
Yes, I agree, I have already tried to buy a manual, the buy never responded, was then offered a free one..yet to turn up...time to stop being a t.a.!
So Col, you think the advance not moving at 2000rpm is normal? I have listened to each carb tube and got them pretty close byt this method.
Tomorrow is another day, I shall keep plugging away, hell if I make this much progress every day, I'll be sorted by weeks end haha!
The airflow meter is a device you put in the carby and it measures how much flow is going through the carbys, you measure them at idle and balance them, then you balance them at 3000 RPM, the airflow meters are for sale on ebay, the one i purchased in 1984 cost me $50, it was made in Germany, the same one made in China on ebay is $50, Colin.
Quote from: Mike on April 19, 2014, 09:59:09 PM
.... was then offered a free one..yet to turn up...time to stop being a t.a.!
Mike
Sorry to hear that the manual has not arrived. I'm a bit miffed, I posted it by parcel post on 8 Apr 14 from Sydney (Blakehurst LPO, 2221). The LPO said it would take 4-5 days. It was not sent with tracking but the receipt says "Article ID 61209514088097". Perhaps it is worth asking at the PO at your end if they can find that article id?
Damo
My car originally had a Magnetti Marrelli 2 pickup distributor, it now has a Magnetti Marrelli 1 pickup distributor with a vacumn advance.
The reason i changed to a vacumn advance type distributor off a single carb model is simplicity, it only has 1 pickup [to go wrong], 2 wires instead of 4 [to short out], vacumn advance that works on the availability of vacumn as opposed to the twin carb setup with its relays, spark boxes, idle sensors, temperature sensors, [which stuff up], 2 wires go from distributor to coil and thats it, the twin carb, wires to distributor to relay, to another relay to idle sensor to temperature sensor.
To time the car, i make sure its got good premium 98 fuel, take it for a drive and make sure there is some slight pinging under labouring, but if it pings on a hot day, then retard the distributor, to stop it pinging, Colin.
Damo...Sorry mate, I vaguely recalled someone saying they would send me a book, but I could not recall who it was! I half thought |I had imagined it, such was the generosity. I will take the number and hunt it down. I have ordered one last night, so perhaps I can pass the favour onto the next sud enthusiast. WA mail seems to be carried by snail shell..utterly hopeless.
So,Damo, just let me know if I can return the favour for you one day...check out a part/car over here for you, should the need arise.
By the way Damo, ust saw your Sud....drool!! Wow! Something for me to aspire to.
Col, that is interesting on the dizzy...sounds like I have a nightmare setup with lots to go wrong. Anyone want to sell me a vaccum dzzy?! I am not fond of the idea of multiple sensors and black box;s relied upon to get a spark...would explain a lot.
The 95 and 105 horse power motors ran dirtier than the single carb, so they ran the distributors retarded until they warmed up, if i remember rightly one pickup was for advance and the other pickup was for retard, with the vacumn advance, you suck on the vacumn tube to see if the advance / retard works on the distributor, Colin.
I have sorted the dizzy issue, turned out that two sensors had been wired back to front on the motor. I simply swapped the wires, and walla...I was blessed with advance from just off idle. I am sure rebuilding the dizzy did at least something! ::)
Also just got done replacing cam belts, tensioners (pump looked good so left it alone after all the horro stories I have heard about removal), oil filter, fuel filter (air filter looks new no left it). Replaced a couple of fuel lines, adjusted the carbies and cleaned the sut off the interior!
It is now going rather nicely. Still a rattle in the gr box area that subsides when foot is on clutch, will pull box and replace clutch as required.
Checked car over for rust, a little under the brake boost and the tin around the battery is shot, but otherwise, remarkably sound. In fact, better than my GT.
All boots intact, bushes look for the most part ok. I'd say this car has at some point had decent upkeep, every part I come across is genuine.
I now have one low beam headlight to get working and one indicator relay, but thats it. Everythign else would appear to work by some miracle..even the orignal radio :-)
So I'm rather happy. Hopoing to get a road worthy in the next week or two
Interior front seats are kaput, but by some miracle I found a mint set of ti seats, front and rear for sale and snapped them up. Now just hunting for red carpet..mine is stuffed.
Coming along...
Last couple.
Seats have been replaced, found a better front grill. Stearing wheel swapped for something a little more sporting, but period. NOS tail lights, and a non cracked dash, stick gator and a few other bits are on their way from UK. Chipping away at it. I also picked up a 1700 twin carb engine with 86000km's on it. Tempting to install it! Should I? Or should I stay 1.5?
Hello Mike, i notice your Sud has airconditioning, most of them didn't work very well, due to poor airflow through small vents, the one i had, i put an old style 70's hang on evaporator that fitted under dash, increased the airflow a fair bit, much better than the original, they weren't fitted with airconditioning from the factory, they were done in Australia, with the evaporator in the left hand side dashboard shelf, originally fitted by Nambri Automotive in Melbourne, with the old refrigerant R-12, when i fixed it up 20 years later, i got a new compressor and pipes and converted to the new gas R-134a.
Fitting a 1700, how long is a piece of string?, the bigger motors uses more fuel, the one i had had warmed over cams and would struggle to get 300 klms out of a tank of petrol, but the torque was great, 5th gear at 50 no problem, and hills presented no problem, but it made you lazy, you would plonk it into top gear and away you would go, i would alternate between the 1500 33 and the 1700 Sud, both were very different, but good, most likely wouldn't chase down a 1700 motor.....but if you now have one, the only thing is the 1500 Sud engine pipe is very restrictive and you can't fit a 1700 engine pipe off a 33, due to the Sud inboard rotors the pipes won't fit, they do sell 1700 engine pipes for Suds, that are bigger in pipe diameter, if i could track one down get it and fit the bigger motor, Colin.
Quote from: Mike on June 07, 2014, 11:29:12 PM
I also picked up a 1700 twin carb engine with 86000km's on it. Tempting to install it! Should I? Or should I stay 1.5?
I doubt you'd get much argument on here either way TBH - I can see the appeal of the bigger motor. I'm probably going to (eventually) put a 1.5 twin carb in our 'new' 1.2 Sud - mostly because I've already got one and it means I won't have to rebuild the 1.2. People mostly don't complain about extra horses and torques.
Go with what your heart says - it's not as controversial as doing a twinspark conversion on a 105 for example :)
Yes it has aircon, basically a necessity over in WA if you want to get any driving done in summer. I am not sure if it has been converted or not. I can't see a sticker on it suggesting it was converted and the aircon is weak at best when activated, so needs a regass at a minimum. I'll have a closer look.
Yes, bigger cubes are seldom complained about I agree, but I guess I am asking if the 1700 has the same sparkle, that willingness to rev. I'll drive ti for a while, see what I think. Perhaps I will use your same logic...come engine rebuild time, maybe dropping in the next motor is a cheaper solution.
Where does one pick up the sud ti 1700 headers from?
Cheers
Mike
The 1500 revs harder than the 1700 because of less weight of the engine to get going, but it has to, as it doesn't have the torque of the 1700, i don't know where you would get bigger engine pipes for the Sud with a 1700 motor, perhaps the UK, where they race these, the 1700 has bigger engine pipes, as i have measured the pipes on the 1500 and 1700, but they all end up the same size as they go to the centre section.
Have a look at the compressor charging ports, if it has 2 and the valves look like shraeder valves as on a tyre, it has R12, the illegal gas, if not have a look along the lines, and if you have charging ports that look like air fittings off a compressor, then you have the newer and soon to be obsolete R134a, Colin.
Col knows my preference - go the 1.7 twin carb engine as think they are the ultimate Alfa boxer engine! Have driven most Alfa boxer engines including injected/ 16v's and after another 200km's this morning, love the carbie 1.7engine.
Problem is finding pistons for rebuilds??? 1.5 pistons are easy to find and as Col points out, you will need exhaust headers fabricated to fit around the in-board brakes but the crackle on over run with 1 3/4 headers is a highlight!
Great to see the progress Mike!
Cheers
Paul
Thanks all, I really appreciate the comments.
I went into the sud purchase knowing I was chasing revs and NA, carbied fun. I think the 1700 fits the bill, and I am keen to head down the 1.7 path...fuel consumption has never concerned me as I do not do long distances.
I have the hydralic 1.7 from last of the sud sprints. From what I can read, it would seem that people shy away from this version of the cabrie engine. Why is that? Is it a limit in power thing or availability of parts/reliability? All rebuilds cost monay I want to make sure I spend it on the right power plant. I do also have a 16v engine, which I have considered putting carbs on.
The first 200 1700 motors in Australia in the series 2, 33 were all solid lifters, and this was because the factory had the solid lifters sitting around and wanted to use them up as the hydraulic lifters were not ready yet, i know when i was chasing a 1700, i had to wait years to get a solid lifter version, for the warmed over cams i was going to use, and the cams were for solid lifters, which were different from hydraulic, the hydraulics have a little ramp that pumps up the lifters...or so i am told.
The carby engines put out more power than the injected engines, the injected engines have better fuel economy and they pollute less and last longer, the carby engines waste fuel and are constantly washing the oil off the bores of the engine causing ring and cylinder wear.
The cooling system in the Suds and 33's were designed for about 65 hp and a 800 kilo body in 1972, same cooling system 15 years later and they are trying to keep cool 115 hp and a 950 kilo body, and it was marginal to say the most, when the 16 valve came along in 1990, Alfa by this time had been absorbed into the Fiat group and had some money, so the engine bay was redesigned for the 16 valve 33, with a bigger radiator, to cope with a 1,000 kilo and 130 hp, the radiator was at the front of the radiator support.
My 1500 105 hp 33 with airconditioning struggles to cope in traffic on hot days, sometimes in the summer i remove the thermostat, the radiators in these cannot be made any bigger, as there is no room at the sides or top, you can't go forward and make it thicker, the only thing is you might be able to make it thicker towards the engine and use a thinner electric thermomatic fan, Colin.
OK, so there is no real dissadvantage to using the hydraulic lifter 1700, other than sourcing the correct cams, should I want to upgrade? Sounds promising.
As for radiator, Perhaps the new core designs are slighly better than the old rads? Or perhaps you can use a tripple pass and as you say thicker rad with thinner fan. I have used SPAL fans to great effect, but you can not skimp on fan as they need a good motor to pass the volume of air you would need when compared to a larger, deeper fan. Having said that, the Sud fan is nothing special, so should be able to imrove that no problem..it's all money of course.
There is no problem using hydraulic lifters, just make sure your cams are ground for hydraulic lifters and that the cams are straight within .001 inch, other wise the engine won't idle properly.
I am just talking standard radiators that are made by valeo that go straight in, a custom made radiator with a tripple pass may be a better proposition, but then it will spoil the look of the original radiator being in the car.
I have a SPAL radiator cooling fan on my 33 supplementing the standard fan, it is mounted on the passenger side between the grill and the radiator and blows rather than drawing air through the radiator, Colin.
There is no disadvantage in just doing an engine swap and modifying the exhaust and that's it, go no further, but if you go further you will find that half a job doesn't work, even though things look the same, many parts are not interchangeable.
I currently run a 1700 hydraulic lifter with 40 IDF's in my Sud Sprint Veloce with a baffled sump fitted. The gearbox is from an 84 33, as well as the outboard solid front brakes which allowed me to fit the correct exhaust for the engine. Disliked the inboards for many reasons so they had to go. Left the engine standard as they go fast enough and stay super reliable and efficient. Also the engine being standard doesn't overheat. Daily driven a Sprint for years and have never had one overheat, must be lucky I guess. Always had the original aluminium tube radiator. I got my engine by wrecking a whole 33 so had all the parts to do the job in one hit without looking for bits and pieces, so gearbox, exhaust, drive shafts, brakes, Front and rear suspension, rear brake proportioning valve with matching master and brake lines and clips to hold everything together and make it look original, were all on the one car which makes the job easier. One thing leads to another, so how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? For example, while I was planing my engine swap, I also had a 16v 33 to steal parts from, so I fitted the power steering which was one of the best things I've ever done to a Sudsprint, although part of the job involved tapping a hole and thread in the top of the 1700 8V engine and cutting the firewall, which most people wouldn't dare attempt, so again how far do you want to go?, but my car is fricken awesome !!!
Having said all that, I'm currently building a 16V engine for this car which I hope to have fitted by the end of this year. Again, it's not just an engine swap as I'm going to fit all the electronics which go with this engine. Although, if you had inlet manifols to fit 40 IDF's to this engine plus a distributor from the 8V's engine, should make this engine swap more attractive, and being a 16V engine it's going to be very bloody FAST !!! and sound awesome!!!
I also wrecked a 16v Alfa 33 and kept computer, struts, power steering, fuel system etc etc. I think I like the simplicity of the carbied 1700, but 16v is of course an attractive proposition. I have too many projects as it is, so my focus for now has been on making it the best drive it can be without modifying too much. Then enjoy it for a while, while I educate myself on smart mods. All the suggestions here have been very helpful and will go into the decision making process. I am with you, opening an engine and modifying propoerly is an expensive slippery slope, and I am doing that on a couple of cars at the same time so have to be realistic.
Killing me not driving the thing, once back from O/seas, its down the the pits to see if I can get her on the road and enjoy it for what it is.
Looks like you have some very fast cars in your shed, and realistically the Sud isn't going to be one of them. So considering how original the car is, I suggest keeping the mods to a minimum. Bolting in the 1700 8V engine, keeping the original gearbox and inboard brakes and have some fun with it. Keep the engine standard because they're fast enough, just baffle the sump!!! If you have the exhaust which came with the 1700 8V, have a go at modifying those pipes to fit around the inboard brakes. Tune it properly and it will purr like a cat, and don't be afraid to rev it to 6500 and then change gear. The car will be reliable and heaps of fun, it might actually surprise you.
That sounds like a plan to me. I agree, I 'could' chase silly power in it, but for what? Better to get a reliable, solid package that looks like the factory intended. Good, that's sorted.
When you put a 1700 into a 33, you can get stronger C.V. joints, with Suds, you get 1500 C.V. joints that are prone to breaking, due to the fact that they accelerate and brake as well, with the 33, they only have to accellerate, don't know if you can get stronger C.V. joints for the Sud???, Colin.
Mike
Col & Frank's comments are wise. My Sud has the same setup as Frank's - standard 1.7 hydraulic lifters 40mm carbies with baffled sump but have kept the inboard brakes so had the exhaust headers fabricated. Run 1.7IE gearbox internals as the TiQV has the tallest gearing of all Sud's & 33's (& 5th is basically an over drive).
Never had any cooling issues with standard radiator but as mentioned, pistons are hard to find for the 1.7's for engine rebuilds. Boxer engines are difficult to get a lot more Hp w/o expensive work or strapping on a turbo so as Frank suggested, would leave standard. Can get a few Hp's from modifying the air cleaner as they are horribly restrictive and ditto for the crap factory mufflers (have seen 3hp ATW's on Beninca's dyno from just the bloody rear muffler!). So suggest ensure engine breaths cleanly and tuned properly and you should get many years of driving pleasure!
Cheers
Paul
All good advice. so to clarify, if I use by 16v EFI box, that will bolt to my 1.7 hyd. carb engine and then bolt straight into the sud? Then just need custom exhaust?
I am not too stressed about pistons, I think if I pulled the engine down I would raise comp with custom pistons.
This is where you have to be careful. Most parts, even though they look the same, don't all bolt together for different reasons.
If you use the 16V efi box, you then have a box which you cannot bolt the inboard brake calipers to, and the output flanges are different. If you fit this box, you then have to change most of the front suspension so you can use the 16V drive shafts. The front hubs differ alot from inboard to outboard brake setup. This is what I meant in the earlier post about going down the rabbit hole. Also 'some' of the inboard brake gearboxs have the 4.11:1 diff ratio, and closer gear ratios, which is what you want to make the car feel zippy as oppsed to the 16v efi which most likely is a 3.89:1 ratio. Does this sound correct Colin ? Please let me know as I'm drawing from experience only. Then there are things like front brake hose brackets you need to fit and many other things to make this option work well and be safe.
Also as Colin pointed out, the 1.5 drive shafts are weaker/smaller than 1700 shafts. So fitting 1700 shaft does seem attractive, although requires changing the front hubs and most of the front end. Also I've found the shaft length is a problem, where for example you fit 1700 8V hyd motor plus 16V gearbox, then you go to fit the 16V shafts and they are somewhere around 2mm short. Then you start swearing alot!, So you need 2mm spacers between gearbox output flanges and shafts to allow full suspension droop/travel or shafts will destroy themselves. there's also shaft bolt length and thread differences to add to your agony, down the rabbit hole further!
Paul's setup is very attractive. I like how he has swapped the gearbox internals and I suggest this is the way to go, depending on your preference to diff and gear ratios. For example, I would remove the gearbox sump and check the diff ratio, if I found a 4.11:1 diff, I wouldn't touch the gearbox and just fit the 1700 8V hyd engine and job done because I like that diff ratio. With respect to the 1.5 inboard drive shafts, unless you are going to race the car, they are fine. Just keep the gearbox flange bolts tight, because if they come loose and a shaft falls off, how is the car going to stop...right!
And yes you need to modify the exhaust when you fit 1700 8V hyd engine to the inboard brake gearbox, like Paul says, but if you go outboard brake you can use a standard 1700 exhaust headers because the rotors are not in the way.
So basically if I simply keep the 1500 box casting, but check/replace internals then I can retain inboard setup. I don't mind going to outboard setup (I have all the 33 parts).
So the 1500 box bolts striaght up to the 1700 engine? For example, if I simply remove the 1500 engine only and drop the 1700 in, does it all bolt up? I apperciate I will have slightly weaker shafts.
Thats for the detailed information, this will certainly help smooth out proceedings.
Yes, if you remove the 1500 engine and replace it with the 1700 8V engine, it will bolt up to the inboard brake 1500 gearbox, no problems.
Remember if you swap gearbox internals and particularly the diff, you must blue up the crown and pinion and so on...
Frank are 16 valve driveshafts different to 1.7 8 valve and will they interchange
Not sure off the top of my head, but they might be due to the different suspension geometry from 1700 8v to 16V.
Uncle Colcol, do you have a definite answer? I have seen 4 different types from 1500 to 16V!
I think from memory, in-board calipers can be fitted to most 1.7 gearboxes as holes are in the castings for the studs to hold the calipers on but tapping them would be a challenge!
Good thing about the 1.7 gearboxes other than better gearing than the 1.5TiQV is the star gears are larger/ stronger than the Sud's. Your other option Mike is to just fit a 1.5 Ti gearbox if you really want to rev!
Frank's description of rabbit holes is very apt!
Paul
About 20 years ago 3 of us tried to convert a 1980 Sprint to outboard brakes, the pickup points are different from Alfasud-Sprint-33, the control arms are different, i cannot remember what we used, but we had to put 33 hubs on for the driveshafts and brakes and the wheel ended up too far to the front of the car.
It can be converted, but you have to use the correct bits, we ended up putting the standard parts back on the Sprint and putting up with those inboard brakes.
If i remember rightly the 1500 Sud and 33 inboard constant velocity joints are the same, but the outboards are different, about the same size, but the Sud has a bolt and the 33 has a large nut to hold on their particular driveshafts.
The crown wheel in the 1700 has 12 bolts and the 1500 has 10, so the 1700 crownwheel and pinion is a bit more beefier,and the later 1700 has stronger and bigger spiders in the gearbox.
If you ever decide to put a larger crown wheel and pinion in your car, use a 1700 gearbox with the crownwheel allready there and set up, if you swap crown wheels and pinions from different gearboxes, you will have to set the heights and the toe and backlash, with various shims and dummy shafts, the crownwheel is matched to the pinion, there is an identifying number on both of them.
The gears between the various gearboxes are interchangeable on the splined gears, but the gears are fixed on the gears that are part of the shaft, Colin.
Nice. This is sounding rather good.
Gents,
Just workign through the final road worthy items. I noted that the passenger side shock absorber is tired. Anyone got suggestions as to where I can get a new one from? I asked Turin and he said it was getting rather difficult to find them, as they stopped manufacturing them.
I don't mind going after market if that were and option, but I would be happy enough with stock also.
Not sure if I mentioned here, but the handbrake cable appeared to be stretched as no amount of djustment would make it hold. soon found out that this is a prick of a job with inboard callipers. So while I was at it I got reconditioned inboard callipers at the same time as I don't want to much arround.
Also, does anyone have a spare driver side mirror? I bumped mine and it cracked at the base.
Cheers
Mike
Most of the Twin Carb Suds had their shock absorbers replaced by Koni's as the original Spica's used to leak from day 1 and would be stuffed in 3 weeks......if you think i am joking, i am not, the Spica shock absorbers were so bad, a Alfa Romeo dealer at the time, showed me his spare parts store full of Alfasud Spica brand shock absorbers sitting on a shelf leaking oil all over the floor.
They were replaced by Koni's that were inserted into the shell of the front strut, other brands were also used, as Koni couldn't keep up demand.
Try Italian Automotive Spares in Brunswick, and see what they can come up with.
If you have Koni's, then they can usually be rebuilt and some shock absorbers can be rebuilt also, but its expensive.
The inboard calipers are trouble, as i found out, there should be a 0,1mm gap between the brake pad and disc, but because the adjusters don't work properly there is always a too bigger gap, and no amount of handbrake adjustment can fix it, some Sud owners never have this problem, but others do.
We ended up fitting a hydraulic handbrake to the back wheels and it worked good and didn't leak for 26 years, the most unreliable part of a Sud was the hardest to work on.
Thanks for the lead, I'll call them tomorrow. In the mean time I found a whole strut with good shock at Milano spares so that will get me out of trouble. As for adjustment on handbrake on inboard, they use the same calliper as rear alfetta callipers as I understand it. I've not had issues with Alfetta handbrake cables in the past, so I have my fingers crossed for this time round...
Rear handbrake is tempting, did you convert to rear disks?
The twin carb Sud has rear discs, we put a remote master cylinder up the back, operated by new handbrake cable, some Suds, Alfetta's, Guilietta's, 90's and 75's have handbrakes, some don't, Colin.
Sorry, I'm getting my suds confused now! Disks at rear!
I'm hoping the cable turns up tomorrow. If it does I can get the car out to the mechanics and at least cross one more job off the list...this time without getting my hands dirty!
Best of luck with the new cable, terrible job to fit, if the brake pad to disc clearance is more than 0,1mm, then you will have a long handbrake cable.
If the clearance is more than 0,1mm, then you have a problem with the self adjusters in the caliper and a new handbrake cable won't solve it, Colin.
Mike
Check the top of the front struts and if has an allen key fitting, should be Koni's. As Col mentioned, rare for the struts to be original. Koni Sport are the way to go IMO.
There is also a mod to the front caliper inner pistons that cures the handbrake problem as Beninca's did this to my car 20 plus years back and handbrake has been fine since.
Cheers
Paul
Hi Paul,
I will do that, thanks.
Mod for the calliper. Hmm, wonder if it has something to do with the lever length? Bit hard to get Beninca to mod it for me since the callipers are here in Perth, I'll give them a call and see if they feel like divulging anything.
I spotted your car collection at the bottom of your post... I recall a sud I would give my left n*t for a few years back...silver with a 1.8L in it from memory. Think the guy was selling an Alfetta at the time, then I recalled a Lotus in the shed...I think you must be that guy! Ever since I saw your sud I thought, I will have one one day.
Cheers
Mike
Ha ha Mike, you have a good memory as had the Alfetta briefly but onsold the car. Not sure if Beninca's will divulge their IP but speak to Peter. You could always just send them the inner pistons??
Sud has had the 1.7 boxer carb engine fitted for over 20 years and noted your comment about a fitting a 1.7 - recommend (but would store the original engine). Sud's are so much fun to drive!
Paul
Hi Paul,
I never forgot your garage, I was very impressed. I went to look at an Alfetta, but think I tried to buy your sud!! I have a terrible memory for peoples names..actually names of lots of things....but I never forget a car.
It's a good idea on the pistons. Annoyingly i have just bought the callipers from Vic, shipped to Perth...now to ship back!! They will be well travelled callipers.
Actually I am starting to get frustrated, I have waited three weeks for a handbrake cable to get from Vic to Perth...express post....not a happy camper. Makes you want to take your business to the UK...2 days its on your door....grrr
Ask the question, why are you putting a new handbrake cable on it?, has the old one stretched too much, that you can't take up the slack with that sqaure adjuster on the handbrake cable.
We tried upping the mechanical advantage by repositioning the handbrake cable, so it pulled the cable more, but it was those crappy calipers that wouldn't adjust properly.
You would start off with a handbrake and nice firm brake pedal and a 0,1mm gap on the brake pads to rotor and then after about a week, the pedal would be on the floor and no handbrake and the brake pad gap would be out to 0,25mm, because those crappy GERMAN ATE adjusters weren't doing their job, Colin.
Yes the cable had stretched. I adjusted it right up and the handbrake gave me nothing. But of course, it could just be pad gap I guess and or stuffed callipers. so my apporach is to start with new good parts and go from there..may get no where but that will be somewhere..... ::)
And the good news is......a new cable is even harder to put on than a used one, this is a job that will seriously make you angry, even more so than the clutch slave cylinder circlip, Colin.
Precisely why I am paying someone else to do it!! ;D
Well it has been a while and I thought it was time for an update.
I got some time of xmas to get into the new shed, so much nicer to be working on the flat with a roof over my head.
After struggling to get a pair of new struts for anything less than highway robbery, I found a solution in the UK. I picked up lower springs and rebuilt struts with koni inserts, and koni red for the rear. I have installed the koni yellows on the front and reds on the rear. While I was at it I sandblasted all components and repainted them in matt black, I also purchased new strut seals (if anyone knows where I can find new flat needle roller bearings let me know!). So the suspension looks rather nice and shiny. The springs I will hold off on until after I go over the pits, just don't want to have to have the discussion.
Oh...I found compressing the springs in the sud a freaking nightmare with my shitty spring compressors. Any tricks? Took ages and in a 40 deg day...the sweat was flowing I can tell you! I was sooo tempted to throw the lowered springs in for this reason alone!
I then turned my attention to the rust in the drivers floor. There is a seam just under the drivers feet that looked worse for wear, so I ground off the sound deadner for a closer look. Sure enough, water has sat in the footwell, soaked into the spot welded flange and just sat there and flogged out the joint through crevice corrosion. So I set to work and cut out the offending section. I then cutr a section out of a spare Alfetta door I had (rusted out at the bottom before people worry about me wasting good pasts). The steer was goof and a tad thicker than the floor material. I then welded this in over the cutout section top and bottom, using the stop start tack weld approach. Worked a treat.
I then rust converted the area to be super safe, etch primered the area, and gave it a top coat. I then sikoflexed the joint top and bottom, followed by paint on sound deadner top and bottom. If it ever rusts there again, I'll eat my hat....well...maybe.
I've now dropped the car in to have the front callipers and handbrake cable installed, front left tyre slow leak sorted, wheel allignment, and a check over for road worthyness.
I got a little worried when I set out under permit for the garage, smoke was blowing out the tail pipe and it was running rough, which was odd as it had had such a smooth idel in the past. I zipped back home fearing the worth, popped the hood, and started to pull spark plugs to locate the offending cylinder. As luck would have it I pulled the first lead off the dizzy and looked inside the lead....to find the lead had pulled up the plug so far it was no longer sparking, indeed pulling it off did not change the idle. Bingo! woohoo! So back in the car I got and off I drove.
I can not begin to explain how much fun it was to be driving it after almost 12 months since I pulled it out of that barn. It cackled and popped, revved freely and surprisingly strongly, and just reminded me why I love classic Alfa's. It was just plain simple good fun....something mostly missing frmo todays rides.
It's fair to say I got a little carried away with the resto on the sud, whilst not over the top, I just wanted all parts purchased to be new old stock and of high quality where ever possible, and was focussed on experiencing what the factory intended, at least initially, and off course I have other plans to come like restoring the rims etc, but ok, that's just labour...and badges...and caps...and paint....and consumables...haha...
I'm looking forward to having her come home and once over the pits, heading to the hills and track days for some pure fun. It will soon be in good company, as it is about to be joined by a Lancia Delta integrale Evo2, and a Fiat 128 3P that I've been restoring with a mate. Will be interesting to see which one gets the most use.
I'll pop a photo up when I get a chance, probably after I have some nice new shiny club plates!
A couple of pics of current status, excuse the thick layer of dust on her, I was busy having the shed built and all the toys sat in various hidey holes gathering dust, a few still do :-).
Pics are of the koni supension and uprated springs (and a pic of the car they came from for ride height reference), some NOS parts I gathered, many others....oh which reminds me, I just picked up a NOS drivers mirror and installed it, I was very pleased about that as it took a while to hunt down.
The last couple. Funny, I usually take more pics of the progress, but have just been flat out, so lots of work done, but no pics to show it it would seem! Oh well, proof will be in the pudding.
Great progress, looks great.
Good luck with the rego, looks like it should pass no problems.
Will the Evo2 and Fiat fit? She'd looks like it's filling up fast ;)
Haha, she fits 12 at a pinch or 9 comfortably. Two parts cars in there also, so no issue with space. Think turbo delta, Integrale and 128 will tuck in and that will be it, a life time of projects!
Sud, 128, Integrale and twincharge all in process of registration...don't know what possessed me to do them all at same time...and then Integrale in March. Been a long time since I had an Italian road registered, I miss it a lot.
Hi Mike
For the thrust bearings in the Struts I measured mine and found they are a standard size needle roller thrust bearing 55mm X 78mm. I got a pair off ebay for $20.
Andrew
Good to know, thanks! Still waiting for car back from mechanic, killing me.
The sud has passed the road worthy :-). One small glitch, the car has been registered with a 'g' instead of a 6 on the vin number it's whole life...and just to make it slightly more annoying, two zeros were missed off the engine number also...awesome, now we wait for a licence inspector to come check the number to ensure nothing underhand. Imagine trying to get insurance to cover you if something went wrong....
Other than that annoyance, we decided not to install the lower spring set I got, was going to make the car way to low for comfortable road use. Instead found a set of springs that will take 20 or so mm out of ride height which I hope will be a good compromise...if not, back in with stock springs. That's matched to Koni yellow on front and red on rear. Bit unsure what would be best adjustment setting for shocks, so have set up in middle setting, suck it and see.
Refurbished front inboard disks have been installed and new handbrake cable, while at it, installed a new clutch since and slave, it just made sense to do it at same time.
Steering wrack boots had split so replaced them at same time, wrack inspected ok.
Made up bushes for top of front struts as the struts are from earlier sud and did not match strut tower bush, which I was not expecting. Always something!
Soooo close....!
The earlier Sud front strut was apparently a better design, the later struts had a lot of cornering stresses go through the damper and with the force going through them caused the Spica dampers to leak....after about 3 weeks, this design carried on to the 33, the fix was to fit Koni's, mostly done under warranty.
The Sud/33 steering racks are prone to seizing up, due to the ingress of water, even when the boots are ok, our Sud's steering rack was cactus after 2 years from new, it was replaced by a 33 that had done a few hundred kilometres before being written off, the last steering rack i reconditioned, i put boating grease in the rack, as it can cope better with water, it is made by Valvoline and is blue in colour, the steering rack bearing should also be replaced with a sealed, not open bearing.
You know a steering rack is seized up, when through corners, rather than one small turn of the wheel, you keep having to put your shoulder into it with little corrections as it is seized up and lost its feel, just jack the front up and see how hard or easy it is to turn the wheel.
Sud and 33 rack boots are still available through the spare parts specialists, Colin.
Rack boots are on. One of the Koni shocks on the front seems to be underperforming ( great, was told they were rebuilt ::) ). Add it to the list...do I have to send them to Koni or can others do them?
The good news is I now have the paperwork and the transport department has the correct numbers, so come Monday, I'm driving home in a sud :-)
I believe Koni's are serviced in Melbourne at toperformance.
Thanks!
She is now registered, had a fun drive home, nice after about 12 months of mucking around.
Think the tyres may have flat spotted from years of sitting in the one spot, could of little things, but all in all, a lot of fun. I've forgotten how entertaining 60km/hr can be in small engine car.
I guess the big question is, is it as fun as I remembered from 20+years ago? Yes mostly. I drove home in traffic, the few corners I got to myself is where it showed it's go cart like qualities, then it was seriously fun. It just loves corners, but as others have said, it does lean into corners a bit more than todays cars, but I think that just adds to the appeal, you feel involved. I was also surprised that 105hp actually feels like a good amoutn of power, I guess with sub 900Kg you don't need much. It makes all the right noises and revving it out is just good fun.
Now to enjoy it!
Sorry about the pics, it rained on the car on the way home so the 6+months of dust from the shed + rain was not ideal :-). I'll start to detail things like bumpers etc over the next while, just keep tidying things up now.
Hi Mike
Great news. Now that your driving it around how's the synchro? Mine used to grind a bit shifting into 2nd.
Those springs have lowered it a lot more than 20mm.
Car looks great.
Andrew
To my surprise the box feels spot on, no synchro issue what so ever, all very smooth. Well I have to catch a break sometimes!
Yes it certainly looks more than a 20mm drop I agree, and this was the less low springs! It actual still feels very compliant on the road, although I noticed the front left shock that needs attention, which is annoying. No crashing over bumps, probably largely due to maintaining stock tyre profile. We put 2.5 deg static neg camber in as well, hard to say benefit of this given I did not have a before sync after. I suspect front wheel bearings may be tired, ever so slight audible noise.
When mine was lowered it also had a lot of negative camber also and the most noticeable difference was the steering was much heavier at low speed when lowered. With stock springs it rides much nicer, has more body roll but still loves the corners. Looked nicer lowered, that's about it. If yours is working well then maybe leave the springs alone.
The front struts come out very easily I can pull a strut out and disassemble in about 20mins now.
Congrats Mike getting the car on the road - looks great.
I have always kept the original springs although do have a set of lower King springs in the shed never fitted. The QV had the stiffest Sud springs from the factory and unique brake bias valve as a result. I fitted Koni yellow shocks and stiffened the front shocks bump a further 20% from memory and the car handles fantastic for the road (highly recommend if you want less lean in corners).
The car did loose some compliance though that was a feature of the standard QV.
Cheers
Paul
I took it to a track day last night, what a blast. It was raining and the track was not a hp track, consequently the little Sud was loving it, as was I. It was so predictable to drive, which made you want to lean on it more and more. The sud had no issue keeping up which was a big surprise to me. Big smile on my face!
Quick knee on spring reinstall, 20min in and out? I'm doing something wrong, it takes me that long to compress the spring. Do you compress it in vice or press?
I have a pair of old (bought about 25 years ago) spring compressors that do the job nicely. Not that different to what you can buy off ebay or super cheap auto. They just have hooks that fit over the coils on each end and you put one on each side of the spring.
Mike
The QV springs do not require much compression but recall Ti springs do. Have only used the spring compressors to make life easier when refitting the springs. Sounds like you might have Ti springs in the car??
Think the QV springs had one less coil from memory.
Paul
Oh yeah, the springs I had in were a pain in the backside, had to compress with two blokes...I was ready for a press!!
Easier with lowered springs of course.
Thought I'd throw up a pick of the track day, was a nice wet track and the thunder bolts were an impressive backdrop.
i have 2 sprints that im parting out if you need parts
took a shot of the finsihed product (well are they ever finished?!). Still have things I want to do (like retention the new handbrake cable and recoat bumpers and wheels).
I've been driving the Sud a fair bit since it was registerd, it's just so much fun, seriously fun at pedestrian speeds. The noise is infectious and I just love it. Threw two new boots on her today as one of the Pirelli's had gone out of round after years of sitting. Nasty virbration is now gone. Starts first pop, even the aircon works, although a regas is new on the list.
Enjoy the pics.
Couple more. We put 2.5 deg neg camber in the front, feels great through a corner.
Sud on Simmons for a laugh.
Need to replace my tie rod ends on the sud. Is there a particular brand that is the best? I am aware there is a lot of cheap crap out there so want to avoid it. Also if anyone knows who stocks this stuff in aus to avoid the wait from uk? Cheers
You could try Italian Automotive Spares in Victoria phone 03 9036 1606 or contact them via the internet, Colin.