Makes you wonder. It was only at 30km/h.
http://vimeo.com/68704812# (http://vimeo.com/68704812#)
Sheesh, even with what looks to be a good cage in there, there is still quite a bit of intrusion into the cabin :o Would be interesting to see the same test with no cage.
I don't know that the test replicates a real life situation. It's a single, very sharp point of impact, and the car isn't rolling. Most of the time (not all) there is much more going on which would tend to dissipate the forces more widely.
Fair point Paul however controlled tests such as this allow specific situations to be analysed and appreciated. Real world situations will always have a myriad of influences but that doesnt deny the value of these tests. Over the last few years I for one have made representations to several club members about the risks they are taking in highly modified cars without roll over protection fitted. CAMS allows that at speed events so long as the body structure is unmodified, but they do not take into account mechanical modifications or the general lightening of cars through the removal of trim.
Using this video would support an argument that roll cages are useless anyway. At least in a WRX................. ;)
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 03:09:43 PM
Using this video would support an argument that roll cages are useless anyway. At least in a WRX................. ;)
Not without seeing the same test sans roll cage ;)
Having witnessed a monumental barrel roll over at PI Historics in 2012 and seeing the driver live to tell the tale, I think I am happy to have a roll cage in my car for the foreseeable future!
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 03:09:43 PM
Using this video would support an argument that roll cages are useless anyway. At least in a WRX................. ;)
You are kidding, right? Excuse my humour ineptness if that is the case.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 10:10:14 AM
I don't know that the test replicates a real life situation. It's a single, very sharp point of impact, and the car isn't rolling. Most of the time (not all) there is much more going on which would tend to dissipate the forces more widely.
Smart arse response ahead: Perhaps you should give the FIA a ring, and give them some input. Perhaps they haven't spent enough time analysing real life situations in order to construct this test.
Paul, you are a sh#t stirrer, you are, good one.
And, that's not a roll cage....THIS is a roll cage!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLxFCKW8Qg (RIP Barry Sheene)
Have you seen Top gear episode where they dropped a BMW (I think) vs a SAAB 900 onto its roof. The SAAB 900 survived well because it has the strongest A-pillar construction in its class at that time, the doors were able to be opened after the crush. The BMW didn't survive so well. I had a SAAB 900, strong car.
I would even want a roll cage in a road car for the safety. I have had a roll over accident in an Alfetta GT, it wasn't pleasant but the structure held up in an incident starting at 110kph and probably rolling from 80kph (perhaps). The driver's A-pillar took a bit of beating.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 06:41:59 PM
And, that's not a roll cage....THIS is a roll cage!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLxFCKW8Qg (RIP Barry Sheene)
Wasn't there a more recent one, at Bathurst, fabian coulthard or james courtney or someone, a Ford, all the panels peeled off leaving the cage and roof only?
I'll fess up. I was responding firmly tongue-in-cheek.
But on a serious note, I was stunned to see just how badly the cage performed in that test. If this video was being used to advertise a certain brand of cage, I'd be looking elsewhere.
However, the test is not to compare cage Vs no-cage. It seems to be testing cage Vs cage Vs cage, and we don't see a cageless car tested as the 'control' for the test.
Quote from: Neil Choi on July 05, 2013, 06:53:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 06:41:59 PM
And, that's not a roll cage....THIS is a roll cage!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLxFCKW8Qg (RIP Barry Sheene)
Wasn't there a more recent one, at Bathurst, fabian coulthard or james courtney or someone, a Ford, all the panels peeled off leaving the cage and roof only?
Fabian Coulthard.
In car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWeAdFRYGy4
Tele-vision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duh114_Wc_c
Thanks Paul.
Damn, I am wrong AGAIN. The roof came off as well.
I will have a cage in my (race) car, thanks.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 07:01:27 PM
I'll fess up. I was responding firmly tongue-in-cheek.
But on a serious note, I was stunned to see just how badly the cage performed in that test. If this video was being used to advertise a certain brand of cage, I'd be looking elsewhere.
However, the test is not to compare cage Vs no-cage. It seems to be testing cage Vs cage Vs cage, and we don't see a cageless car tested as the 'control' for the test.
Paul, you are all right.
My wife just gave me $1 to buy some humour and sarcasm. No worries. All too serious for a Friday night.
Yes, the test was aimed at testing various bar materials and construction, if I remember correctly when reading the report/article.
Race harnesses are clearly dangerous too - I mean if you roll over and your roof caves in like in that video, you'd want to be able to lie down in the car to avoid the roof!
When a V-8 Supercar or Porcshe Cup car rolls over, the doors usually fly off, as they are not bolted down like in a road car, they are just lifted off some pins on the hinge in the pillar, this is so the cars are easier to work on, the thing that holds the door on is the lock, in the Fabian Coultard accident a few years ago in the Bundy Commodore, all the bits flew off in the roll over dissipitating all the energy, and he walked away, Colin.
You're good Paul. Having spent nigh on 30 years officiating at club events I can tell you the funniest roll over was when a Mini (a real Mini, not the modern BMW lookalike) rolled comprehensively at a Winton 6-hr, way over at the back of the circuit. The car was destroyed and in those days the way you got a new sash for the team was for the driver to run the old one back to the pits.
So the driver reached around, found the rear window lying on the ground complete with sash attached and ran all the way across the infield at Winton back to the pit wall with the complete window under his arm. With his helmet on as well, which we required for safety (!). It wasnt actually funny of course but as you say there is always a funny side to anything.
I must say though that I doubt the FIA requires a F1 car without frontal protection to be rammed into a barrier as any sort of control for their standard impact testing. Just saying....
Aggie, there is a picture somewhere in the 6 hour archives, of the very person with the window tucked under his arm, what was he thinking?, these days an Ambulance would have got to him as he was getting out of his car, how safety has improved, at several first event for the year, Formula 1 races at Albert Park, some teams have not been allowed on the track until their cars have been crash tested in Europe and passed, Colin.
It's great now with very clear rules in what is acceptable with cages and what isn't. Gone are the days of exhaust tube bolted in as a simple hoop. Thank you FIA and all the safety agitators is all I say. Thank you.
OK, so now I'm not joking. Are you guys all saying you are happy with the performance of the cage in that video of the original post?
As the subtitle in the video says it is testing various steel materials and construction for strength and ductility to seek out the optimum solution that is strong and stretchy.
Materials would be CDS vs cromoly steel, and various diameter and thickness.
So perhaps the vision is showing a test model of a particular material and construction (weaker perhaps), which may not be ideal or whatever you perceive it to be, your guess. Perhaps the published vision was the most dramatic to cause a reaction. Who knows what the strongest one was and how it held up, they didn't show it.
Obviously one needs to consult an engineer to construct your cage with as many triangulated structure as possible. There is also the rumour that in the near future, all new cages might require an A-pillar bar, this is different to the A-pillar leg that connects up to the main hoop. This further strengthens the A-pillar area.
Ideally you want one similar to the V8 super cars which seem to protect pretty well in some really bad collisions.
Your question of "are you happy with...", well, one is only as happy as what one can afford. If your pockets are really deep then go the V8 supercar type which everyone would want but $$$$$.
Us average blokes will never be able to test a cage out until the unfortunate happens and you would hope it is good enough.
But as Phil mentioned, we witnessed an awful tumbling roll over (just check out youtube PI historic 2011) and the driver got out with only some muscular injuries.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 11:13:20 PM
OK, so now I'm not joking. Are you guys all saying you are happy with the performance of the cage in that video of the original post?
I don't follow Paul. In one post you said that the 30km/h collision focussed into a single point was not a realistic scenario, now you're saying that the test result indicates that the roll-cage did not perform well. That seems contradictory to me.
My uninformed guess is that the test scenario is a pretty extreme case, as you said, so I find it hard to judge whether the roll cage performed well or not. I'd be much happier WITH a roll cage in any case.
Oh, and: that's not a crash - THIS is a crash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1atrMYWgA
I am so old i actually saw that crash as a 14 year old, see how safety has changed, the seat in the car broke, there was petrol spilling out, the spectators ran onto the track to help, some were smoking, while the rescue crews got Bill out the race was still taking place, safety car, what safety car?, as the XY Falcon rolled along the fence, it was starting to break in half, you see Bill's head coming dangerously close to coming out the window, no safety nets for the door to speak off, Colin.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on July 05, 2013, 11:13:20 PM
OK, so now I'm not joking. Are you guys all saying you are happy with the performance of the cage in that video of the original post?
Not at all Paul. I'd agree with you that this is unacceptable as shown, even if we accept that in most real world rollovers the impact is dissipated over a much broader area and localised damage is reduced as a result. The closing comment on the video is telling I think, that the FIA is using the results of these tests for formulate standards for the next generation of cages. Suggests we may end up needing US style cages in our competition cars.