For all those that don't ordinarily visit the competition part of the forum and those who haven't seen the posting, dyno day is this coming Saturday!
Whether you drive a Mini or an Il Mostro, come on down to Beninca's to check out the power and the glory (with a bbq lunch). Bookings essential and details can be found here: http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10698.0 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10698.0)
Please PM me for a booking.
Still taking bookings for the Dyno day, with 1 day to go! PM me to reserve a spot.
Is there any problem if it is raining?
Hi Steve,
There shouldn't be any issues if it is raining. We'll place the bbq under cover. You might want to bring a raincoat or umbrella getting to and from your car.
Great day put on by the club, lots of myths dispelled and horses escaped - big thanks to the organisers !
I (badly) synced a video of the MS3 ECU log from the super with the wobbly video I took... here it is in case it's of interest
A couple of things you can see - the Air/Fuel ratio of the wideband sensor in the exhaust (yellow line, top graph) shows the fuelling map is taking the engine far too rich the further into the top end it goes - which matches up with the increasing soot you can see out the exhaust, it tops out at about 12.5 (quite rich) just before the limiter kicks in...
Also, the white line in the lower graph (spark advance) shows a peculiar retardation at 5900 rpm onwards (up to 12 deg.) ... this was a conservative soft limit I enabled prior to Winton last year (my first track day) which I promptly forgot about. you can see a dent in the dyno curves as it happens.. the spark cut limiter drops 4 of every 5 spark events at 6600, and there's a hard fuel pressure cut at 6700.
Wonder if there's more HP up there with the right AFR and correct spark advance or if it's just teasing me... :)
Thanks for everyone's participation in the 2013 Dyno day! The weather was looking more like a train wreck early in the morning, but fined up and turned out to be very enjoyable, with a good turnout. Thanks to Colin's skills in managing the cars and street traffic. Thanks to John H for cooking some fine lunch to the hungry masses.
Here are the results. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent:
Thanks for organising such an enjoyable day Paul. It was great to meet some new people, see some nice cars and go home with a good result from the dyno for the 75.
Cheers Darren.
Thanks for your good work. It was a great morning and lunch too.
Paul, thanks for a great day. John, the lunch was fantastic. Thanks to everybody that attended, I really enjoyed your cars.
Interesting results.
Also from the readings and I did a quick look up, the rwbhp seems to correlates +/- 10bhp to the advertised kW at the flywheel. Therefore about 20-25% loss of power through drivetrain. So if your sales brochure is selling you 184kW, then you should expect about 184(+/-10)bhp at the wheel, ie GTA.
I looked up the specific kW of the M5, GTA, JTS, 75TS (on carsales) as a quick comparison to the rwbhp results, they seem to match up.
Now don't get on my case about difference in dyno's, the day, the weather etc etc.
As a very rough estimate, Neil's observation is correct. RWBHP = Engine kW And rear wheel drive powertrain loss is obviously more than front wheel drive.
That's why these Dyno Days are great (btw, well done Paul & John!), as it compares cars on the same day on the same dyno. Dyno results are accurate only to themselves. I reckon if we would've driven all the cars to another Dyno, the RWBHP results would be different but the comparisons between each car would've been the same.
In saying that, I reckon the Beninca dyno must be well calibrated as the M5's numbers were nearly identical from the last time we had a Dyno Day. It lost 0.4 hp between 28/08/10 and last Saturday. I mentioned this to Joe and he seemed quite pleased about that his Dyno had maintained good calibration!
You don't need to go to another dyno to get different figures, how you tie the cars down and tyre pressure etc... can all have effect on the readings.
Quote from: hmd on June 05, 2013, 09:41:23 AM
You don't need to go to another dyno to get different figures, how you tie the cars down and tyre pressure etc... can all have effect on the readings.
That may be the case, but on Saturday, there was no playing with tyre pressures, tie downs etc. Joe treated each car the same: He drove each car on, settled it in, did one dyno run for HP and torque, finished, and drove the car off. What I'm saying is if each car was also tested the same way at another Dyno, the results between each car would be similar, but the actual HP numbers between the Beninca Dyno and the other Dyno would be different.
As much as people HATE front wheel drives the more compact packaging and better fuel consumption is the reason the way Car Makers are heading, having said that you are entitled to HATE front wheel drive, as its YOUR choice and your money, just don't say that Manufacturers are complete Dickheads for going the front wheel drive, Colin.
I found this article on transmission losses interesting:
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/viewall.html
Hmm, my listing above is incorrect. It lists the Kw not the actual Hp. The GTV V6 should read 171HP. The 127 figure refers to KW.
A great day nonetheless!!! Thanks for organising it!
GTV2.0 with 158+ hp, impressive.
What's the config of that car?
QuoteGTV2.0 with 158+ hp, impressive.
Hung ,
I was going to be happy to let that one stand to stand and create an urban myth. But I better fess up it was my car . Tragically not a Beninca dyno error but a
"Bix" typo error should have been
108 not 158. Just as a matter of interest that's down about 10 hp from the last time I was on their dyno ( 3 years ago) . I can't understand it the car is only lightly used on the odd Saturday or Sunday, usually on good roads like that nice new bit of bitumen down at Philip island . I will need to investigate. ( PG; GTV 2.0 on the Dyno report)
Gully
Bump. What I found interesting from the Dyno day was just how clean the exhaust was from a lot of the cars that do sprint days compared to a lot of the daily drivers that just showed up and jumped on the Dyno. Nothing like a bit of quality time in the upper reaches of the rev range ( Italian tune up) to clean up the exhaust and get the most from your car.
race car high rev range usually run leaner air fuel ratio.
p.s. Are you sure, you are not sand bagging?
Quotep.s. Are you sure, you are not sand bagging?
I wish I was.
Paul, I too had wondered how you got 158 horses.
Though 108 isn't bad. DV's 112 is very respectable. We had fresh TS's awhile back and we got the 110-115 mark too.
Neil,
Its interesting , 3 years ago on the Beninca dyno the car was about 111 which I was a bit disappointed about. Beninca's said that a good twinnie should be about 120 rwhp. So I got some private time on their dyno a few weeks later and they got it back up to 119 rwhp. Now here's where they found the extra ponnies .
1.Some numskull (yours truly) had re trimmed the carpet in the car and didn't set the bump stop under the accelerator pedal correctly so I wasn't getting full throttle.
2. Fixing various small air leaks in the intake system.
So it might be worth another visit after I get over a few other car related maintenance issues.
Another highlight of the day was catching up with Dominic Beninca. I reminded him hadn't seen him since 1985 when his other brothers had him trapped in the boot of my then new Alfetta GTV searching for a leak.
Dominic used to work in the business but has been out on his own for a while . He mentioned that he has just opened his own Driving school ( for first time drivers 18 yo . Not racing). So here's a free plug for that new venture.
Dom would be far to modest to mention his previous achievements which include amongst a lot of others 1998 Bathurst 1000 Rookie of the year. 1998 Aust GT Production Car Champion in a GT3 Porsche. (which I mentioned I would gladly swap a kidney or first born male heir ( sorry Tom) for ).
So if you have any teenage children who need driving lessons I couldn't think of a finer teacher.
Paul
I will freely offer my services to tune and find those missing bhp. My diagnosis is that your engine is lacking regular lubrication ie oil and fuel. So I will more than happy and provide my time free of charge to analyse your car on our rolling dyno. Our service will be to run it at initial easy warm up pace, then moderately and finally at full throttle when you will see a gradual increase in performance, then repeat the process to double check, then handing it back for you to realise the gain in performance with your own analysis.
Our rolling dyno facility will be available on 6 July, I have booked you in.
Regards
Neil
Gully,
Was going to say who cares about the teenager learner. I just want Dom to teach me to drive on Neil's rolling road.
Hi all - a quick belated note to say thanks to Paul, John and Colin for organising the day with style and grace!
I managed to deposit my kids off on the way so was able to turn up and enjoy without cries of "when are we going home" and "I'm bored".
Special thanks to John for finding the camera bag I left behind and bringing it to my house the next day - talk about quality service!
Now, if only he could find my missing horses as well!
Torben
Thanks to those which organised the day . Since not being no longer being a club member I don't know your names but thanks . I was greeted by the friendly parking police man who I think I remember from my earlier days of competing in the AROCA club sprints , he would have been about the only face I recognised. He politely asked me to position my rear wheel drive car in the long line of BMW's and other manufactures of true drivers vehicles .
Such a shame that with the total demise of Alfa having anything resembling the sports sedans and hot hatches of old , it looked to me that numbers of people at the annual dyno day with Alfa's was about half of what I remember ? At least there was a high percentage of classic 105's to see , including what I think was a original twin spark GTA .
Regarding calibration of the world class dyno at the Beninca's all the modified cars which I have had run there , including pre-event power runs just to see everything is ok normally show reading within 1-2rwhp there . My track car that has been run there so many times I cannot remember reads the same power in the same tune ever single time , since being turbo size limited it just won't make any more power . But it makes a whole lot more on some of the dyno's it has been to which just isn't possible ! Just goes to show you there are true engineer's like the Beninca's that built there dyno and would know it back to front , and there are those who just lease a pile of crap undynamic dyno and think there can operate it or get real accurate results.
The car which I had run is my partner's E90 325i M Sport 2009 . One of the reasons of taking this car to the day is we both feel that this car is completely gutless in comparison to the last E90 325i 2005 which it replaced . The 05 car was run at the last BMW club dyno day 2012 and had 157rwhp vs the 2009 cars 152rwhp . You might think that nobody can feel 5hp difference from the seat but add the automatics different (update) software wanting to always select a high gear for better economy , a bigger delay in the throttle to also add false economy by you just flooring it more IT IS GUTLESS . Now having real data and overlapping graphs of both cars I really wonder what bs the droog service advisers at BMW will say when returning it for yet another failure of the Italian Recaro seats ! Well at least it didn't catch fire this time ! German *cough* Italian quality will get you everytime...
Regards
Adam
That freindly parking policeman to which you refer cannot have been the same person that was there on the day, someone gave him a flouro jacket and he proceded to throw his [considerable] weight around, he was telling drivers where to park and not to park, at one stage he was even directing traffic along Sterling avenue, later on he wouldn't let people, who were doing a bit of shopping in Cantebury rd., that they couldn't park there, because its reserved for a car event, give someone a bit of authority and it goes to their head, someone should run him over, Colin.
If the results are going to be published in Alleggerita or the mag I would find it really helpful to also have the torque listed for comparison. One of my runs was a bit raggedy at high revs so I would be interested to compare the peak torque with similar cars rather than the peak hp which i assume will be down a bit for me.
I needs more POWERRRRRR!!!!!!
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67602/2018823-palpatine1.jpg)
Maybe after a midpipe and F360 tb goes in..... I'll be able to hit the 200hp mark ;D
Torque figures would be interesting, and may better represent the drivabilty of the cars. I'm not sure if Paul has these, I know I only gave him hp on the day. The 75 TS made 155.7 Nm @ 4753, with a solid 140+Nm from 3600 - 5700. It made 142Nm @ peak power of 112hp @ 5613. It would be good to see how similar engines performed.
cheers Darren
I don't think anyone had a similar engine to mine that day. Alfa 159 2.4 JTDm, 125,000km and a bit constipated due to problems with the EGR valve and sooting up the intake manifold and swirl valves. 138hp @ 3461rpm, which Joe said was down a bit. 319.9Nm isn't bad, but I think when it's running better it gets on boost much earlier, backside dyno suggests the torque curve is much wider when healthy.
Here's the Super's graph. The stepping in the waveforms is due to the mixture over-richening in waves as it moved through the (badly setup) tuning bins, the notch out of the peak of the waveforms is the same, and the dropoff down the other side is the 10 deg. spark retard I had setup as a soft-limiter... you can see it in the vid.
The rpm on the graph is out by about 2-300 rpm. (I figure they hold the engine at a certain RPM and take a sample on the dyno PC, then hold it a little higher - take another sample, then interpolate the RPM scale during the run - rather than waste time hooking up an RPM sensor ? just a guess..)
Someone in charge just Email the Beninca's for the dyno software .dat file { top corner number} convert to a .csv file , then the raw data has been opened in excel and the graphs generated from there.
Don't all email the Beninca's for individual file as your be wasting there time... They have the fastest Alfa in Australia to build after all.
Would be a easier than trying to read the scanned / posted charts and 100% accurate { Well apart from RPM which is set from your tac at 4000rpm unless you connect your autronic / ECU directly to the dyno pc} . Then you can also do overlays , compare why the BMW's have more power than ALFA's etc.
That lollypop lady/man , crossing guard , traffic warden , traffic controller etc better have had the correct tickets for that job , work safe fine even if they had fluorescence jocks on.
Regards
Adam