Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 116 Series (Alfetta Sedan/GT/GTV & Giulietta Sedan) => Topic started by: martym00se72 on February 12, 2013, 12:02:30 AM

Title: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 12, 2013, 12:02:30 AM
So - I have started the build of the 3.0.

Came from a dude in QLD - think it has come from a flood wreck - not what he said :( First pic is a chunk on the inch plus think clay silt in the bottom on the valley.

Have not been able to turn the motor over by hand. When I took off the oil filter and the sump, LOTS of murky varnish smelling liquid came out. Wasn't quite prepared for that so had the smelly crap all over the floor as I scrambled for buckets as my oil pan overflowed :( I also found that this crap was flammable so no naked flames... or kaboom. Lots of sludge in the bottom of the sump. Not sure why the block was full of flammable crap - any ideas?

Finally got to trying to stripping it down further - took off the water pump... mmm rust n crap...

Pulled off the heads - found the cams n valves move ok so that wasn't what was stopping it turning. Good news is that the stud bolts are in good order.

Around the sleeves - well you guessed it - full of crap.

Think the rings have rusted in the sleeves. Not liking that there is rust on other internals too...

So next is to get the big nut off the front with no rattle gun - ideas anyone?? What is the best way to go forward on this? This is my first ever dig into the internals of an engine - liking it but wondering if I have chosen something a bit beyond what I was thinking... I really want a 3.0 in the GTV6!  ;D

Happy to take on board any advice from those that have done it before :)

more to come I am sure.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Mick A on February 12, 2013, 12:54:50 AM
You can use an old engine bearing to hold the flywheel, but it may not be strong enough with the rust that is apparent.

I suggest buy a battery rattle gun and a 41mm socket off ebay perhaps? It will make your life easier!

I've built plenty of these engines, so if you have any specific questions feel free to PM. And I'll do my best to answer!

Cheers!

-Mick.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: giulia_veloce on February 12, 2013, 08:56:12 AM
Hey Martymoose72.

Dont give up
I put a 3 litre from a 164 in my GTV and could not be happier
Just need to change the gearbox ratios now,as 1st gear is useless now
Twin spark ratios are the way to go.

I was not happy to see rust on the top of the conrod to the piston.
Looks like you will need new pistons + liners + ring set anyway.
Wonders what you will find when you remove the crank etc

Do what you want and enjoy doing it,,but maybe a quicker solution is to buy a running 164 and drop it in
Have a complete car here if you are interested.

Robert
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on February 12, 2013, 01:03:23 PM
It's definitely worth the headache and funds to install a 3.0, the torque increase is addictive.

I'd be giving up on that engine though; strip it and use the block as an interesting coffee table.  As Rob says, get a running 164 for $500 and do it that way. 

There's no way you'll get the nut off by hand (in my experience anyway), let alone the flywheel bolts.  And I don't think even a battery rattle-gun would do it, but maybe if it's a very good one.

I was lucky when I got my 3.0 engine that it cost me bugger-all, but I still spent about $1000 on tools to ensure I could do the job.  If you have the room and funds, definitely get yourself a compressor and rattle-gun, and an engine crane.  Sorry, don't know where you are, but if you're in Melbourne you're welcome to use my engine crane; it's reasonably portable, but you'd need a ute to transport it.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 12, 2013, 05:47:21 PM
Thanks for the offer of the crane Sheldon. I am in Adelaide and already have a crane and a reasonable and growing tool kit. Started doing some figures on what I might need to replace on the engine I have. Starting to add up. Rob, can you pm me what you are after for your 164, should look at that as a realistic alternative but I guess that might also need some work too. I may very well have just donated 500 to to the guy who sold me the engine. Bugger.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Storm_X on February 13, 2013, 07:51:57 PM
What car did the motor come from ?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 13, 2013, 09:54:55 PM
Storm, it was from a 75, earlier one that ran L-jet. Fly wheel bolts came off OK BTW, but am now looking at alternatives to this motor as it will cost a lot more time and $$ than finding a decent 164 motor. Gotta be adaptable I guess...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: festy on February 14, 2013, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: martym00se72 on February 13, 2013, 09:54:55 PM
it was from a 75, earlier one that ran L-jet.
I thought all fuel injected V6 3.0s were Motronic cars? Were there some that came out with L-Jet?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Anthony Miller on February 14, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Motronic from 1990
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on February 14, 2013, 03:55:31 PM
Quote from: martym00se72 on February 13, 2013, 09:54:55 PM
Fly wheel bolts came off OK BTW

Ah ok, didn't mean to steer you wrong there, but I had a bastard of a time getting a flywheel off my 164 engine.  I ended up having to go and borrow a better rattle-gun, and that only just managed it with my (borrowed) cheap compressor.  Maybe mine had been taken off and re-installed with the you'll-never-get-those-bolts-out-again brand of Loctite.

I'm sure you're aware, but just-in-case, the 164 engine needs a bit of work before it will go into a transaxle car.  I spent a few months doing mine, but I estimate that doing it again, I could probably do it in a weeks-worth of working on it at night.  That's assuming you don't need to order any parts once you get your 2.5 out, and assuming it all goes smoothly (I also had a hell of a time getting studs out of the 2.5, which took a few nights to solve).  I also got new engine mounts, rebuilt the steering rack etc. 

I still think it would be the easiest, quickest and cheapest way to go for your situation, but then again if you rebuilt the 3.0 you have it will be a rebuilt engine....
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Repco Lad on February 14, 2013, 04:15:44 PM
Marty,

If you decide to cut your loses, there's a 164 Alfa 'Remeo' up your way on ebay at the moment for around $300. You may be able to make a goodun' out of the two

Like many, I've upgraded to a 3.0lt. It's worth a bit of agro at the moment. In 6 months when you're blasting around, it will all be a distant memory.

Note: pack a needle and thread, 'cos a gtv with a 3lt is a ball-tearer!

RL
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 14, 2013, 04:57:04 PM
Thanks Repco - except I am down in Adelaide - my dud engine came from QLD though. Would be a real shame if people could learn to spell Alfa Romeo correctly... ;D Makes you think that if they can't even spell the brand correctly, what hope do you have of them actually looking after the car.

I am following up a lead on a local 164 engine - got some photos overnight - looks like it could be the goods!

Needle and thread kit sorted!
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Beatle on February 14, 2013, 07:01:57 PM
Quote from: Repco Lad on February 14, 2013, 04:15:44 PM
Marty,

If you decide to cut your loses, there's a 164 Alfa 'Remeo' up your way on ebay at the moment for around $300. You may be able to make a goodun' out of the two!

RL

According to the listing, the engine in that Alfa Remeo 164 has a burnt valve, and is on LPG...............
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: wankski on February 20, 2013, 09:43:03 AM
Quote from: Repco Lad on February 14, 2013, 04:15:44 PM
Note: pack a needle and thread, 'cos a gtv with a 3lt is a ball-tearer!

LOL.

i suggest if you're doing these kinda jobs, it's time for a GOOD impact wrench. Air driven.

I would suggest the battery jobbies would struggle with the crank pulley nut.... my proper made in UDA aircat wrench zapped it off easy enuff... my battery impact would have no hope in hell...

JME.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 20, 2013, 11:00:30 PM
So, checked out a second motor. 164 this time round. More work but it might actually happen with tis one :) Paid deposit and looking to pick it up on the weekend. It is a significantly better option than working on this one so I am encouraged again! Looking at a mains powered rattle gun rather than battery - I figure it is a pretty good compromise. They claim ~350NM torque so worth a shot rather than getting a whole compressor (and finding a home for it) etc...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: BradGTV on February 23, 2013, 11:52:06 AM
ive got a 164 complete motor sitting here i need to get rid of, be interested to know how much there selling for these days??
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on February 23, 2013, 03:05:48 PM
I just picked up what looks like a decent one for 500. Should be around the mark...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Evan Bottcher on February 23, 2013, 05:33:25 PM
Funny innit.  What's a 164 complete car worth?  $500.  What's a pair of good 164 headlights worth?  $500.  What's a good 164 3.0L v6 worth?  $500.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Mick A on February 25, 2013, 12:22:57 AM
Those would be QV headlights though Evan. ;)
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Beatle on February 25, 2013, 07:28:36 PM
Evan, if you can find a good 164 for $500.....I'm interested ;)
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Evan Bottcher on February 25, 2013, 08:54:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Bayly on February 25, 2013, 07:28:36 PM
Evan, if you can find a good 164 for $500.....I'm interested ;)

I didn't say a GOOD one.  Just a complete one.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on March 13, 2013, 12:10:47 AM
OK, so heads are off the 164 engine i picked up locally - Thanks Tim!  ;D

Sooo much better condition... Pics to follow, probably take some this weekend.

Question for any Adelaide folks - where is a good, reasonably priced place to take engine heads to be cleaned up and checked out, replace seals etc... How much is a reasonable price for such a service?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on March 13, 2013, 10:17:47 AM
Good to hear Marty! Looking forward to some pics.

I had my heads done at Adelaide Cylinder Heads on Port Rd, as recommended by Eurosport. They did a good job on welding the corrosion, but they did not have the correct tools to tighten the cam pulleys so they just gave it back loose. They also said my valve stem seals, which came in the Victor Reinz gasket set, were the wrong size and charged me another $100. Plus $250 for corrosion welding. Then when I got it back together, it was very tappety and I had to get my mechanic to reset all the clearances.

I think I was quoted about $850 (the cheapest quote I got) in labour to strip the head, clean, replace the valve guides, cut new valve seats and reassemble but the job ended up costing about $1200 (about the highest quote I got) plus the cost to have the clearances reset.

So, in the end I would not recommend them, because I reckon the fleeced me 100 bucks and really did not finish the job properly. But I think price range is about right for 2 heads.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on April 08, 2013, 11:05:12 PM
Ok - photo time  ;D

First few are of the heads - still to be cleaned up - probably won't get out to sort them until 26th when I have a day off :)

Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on April 08, 2013, 11:07:35 PM
And this is the rest of it - cleaned up a bit... :)
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Mick A on April 08, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
That block looks really good from what I can see around the liners. Very minimal corrosion! That's good!
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on June 03, 2013, 10:45:45 PM
OK - been a while. Selling a house will do that to you. :)

Got the heads done. Thought I would chase up 3 prices. One of the places has gone bust, one of the places was not open so that  only left the place the Tim warned against. Their quoted price was $550 for both heads if no welding was needed or $660 if they did (verbal quote - worth the paper it was written on...). Decided to roll the dice with them. They gave me a call and said the exhaust valves were pitting and starting to dish and the guides were worn - 200 to do them - OK add that to the list. I go to pick them up when done. First question from me - did they do any welding? Nope. Then they try to charge the full rate... But they backed down when challenged so ok. They say the reset clearances but didn't torque up the sprockets because they did not know what to do them to... so how do they know the right clearances I wonder...

Anyway - anyone know what torque and clearances I need for this? If not I will have to try to find it in the manual...

I now have the car on jack stands, starting the swap. Exhaust off - finally. Will be getting flange joints put in. All in 1 system is a PITA!  Have taken out the bolts on one side of the rear donut and the bolts holding the trans front brace (if that is what it is called...) looking to drop the front of the trans down but it looks like it might be binding on a locator bearing or something through the donut. Do I need the pry bar to lever back the trans to get it past?

And - haven't done any research on this, but is there anywhere that sells rebuild kits for the de-tensioner (164 12v 3.0). I gather they are hard to come by...?

Many more dumb questions to follow for sure  :D
Cheers
Marty
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: rowan_bris on June 04, 2013, 07:30:05 AM
The tensioner kits are available from Altissimo in the US.  I have a spare one if you need one in a hurry.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on June 05, 2013, 09:20:44 PM
Thanks for the offer Rowan - any idea what their shipping rates are like? Sent them a query but no answer so far. I am not in a hurry as such - still got plenty to do :)

I have, after some consideration, decided to get the front flywheel on a diet. I will be using the flywheel and front pulley from the 2.5 so my questions are:
1) How much can/should come off - don't want it so light that it is at risk of spontaneously exploding - but do want enough that it will make a difference
2) (for Adelaide folks) Is there a workshop that people trust to do this and then balance it up properly
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: rowan_bris on June 06, 2013, 06:12:33 AM
I can't recall sorry, but it would have been amongst other stuff I got so hard to tell anyway.  Shipping in general from the US is very high
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on June 06, 2013, 11:08:50 AM
I have been meaning to say thanks for the invite you sent Marty, I was unable to attend unfortunately.

I went with the mechanical de tensioner. They are readily available from EB Spares. Shipping from the UK is very reasonable and fast.

To get the donuts free undo the center support, undo the rear cross member bolts and the watts linkage. Then jack the de dion. This will push the clutch down and it will separate from the donut.

http://www.hiperformancestore.com/guiboDSclutch.htm

If you have not done it recently, I would change the gearbox mounts and the diff mount at the same time. Swapping those mount eliminated any hint of vibration in my driveline.

I would defiantly double check the valve clearances. Mine sounded like an old truck when those blokes set them up.

Torquing up the cam pulley is a bit of a trick as well without the Alfa specific tool. I used the old timing belt held in a vice to hold the cam pulley stationary.

Good progress.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: scott.venables on June 06, 2013, 10:46:02 PM
I bought a tensioner rebuilt kit from Turin Imports in Adelaide.  It was a few years ago but they might still have them. 

Attached is a picture of the flywheel I lightened for my car.  It's very manageable and well behaved so long as you're not indecisive with the throttle in which case it can get into the 'kangaroo hops'. It is 1.90kg lighter than standard.  I have another that is further lightened waiting to be fitted.

Scott


Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on June 11, 2013, 10:53:05 PM
Thanks Tim - got that sorted over the weekend. Got some questions about trans mounts - mine are in good nick, but questions about spacers etc. I took photos so will post with the question when I have downloaded them from the camera.

Scott - man have I got some questions for you!!  ;D  I am trying to wade through the massively copious BS on various forums on flywheel balancing.  Firstly, my intention is to use the front pulley and flywheel from my 2.5 on my 164 3.0. I have read opinion of some that that is bad. I have read some that have done it without issue (but also no real science behind it - they just did it and hoped by the sounds). I would like to lighten the flywheel as well - I am rarely indecisive on the throttle :) but don't want the engine to self destruct either. I "think" that the 3.0 and the 2.5 have difference counterbalance amounts. So if I took the 3.0 flywheel (auto) and pulley as a pair and the 2.5 pulley and flywheel as a pair and asked a balance shop to balance up the lightened 2.5 with the same counter balance amount as the stock 3.0 set, would that work?

Still looking for a workshop in Adelaide to do it yet too...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on June 11, 2013, 11:38:22 PM
Ok, so question about rear trans mounts. As I see it, I have mounts that belong on a 75 with the extra 1.5 mm plate tacked to the bottom. On the right of the photo, there is a steel block that I think is a spacer used by the PO to offset that - except it is bigger than the 1.5 mm. I also noticed that on the top of the trans tunnel, directly above the rear guibo there are marks where the guibo looks to have rubbed against the tunnel. Now I have noted that when I accelerated hard there was a rubbing noise from the rear - I actually thought it was the left rear rubbing but could never see marks in the wheel well or on the rubber. So this looks like what was causing that noise - but what to do with this. The spacer block is loose like a washer and I guess was put in by a PO to try and sort that. I also recall from a Greg Gordon article that there is a adjustable rubber stop above the trans - is it simply a matter of lowering that so that the trans can move as far? Front guibo is shot but middle and rear are in good nick...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on June 12, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
That spacer is OEM. It is not a bodge job, my 75 had them as well.

If you have trans mounts with the plates on the bottom, and no extra spacing on top of the block, then your driveline will be out of alignment, specifically the front of the trans will be too high, possibly contributing to the rubbing in the tunnel. So, I would get a new set and cut the plate off or add a 1.5mm piece of steel to the block spacer. Replacing them is a good idea, because if they are sagging even slightly, they are ready to be replaced.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: scott.venables on June 12, 2013, 11:37:40 AM
Hi Marty.  Yes, there has been a lot written about this on the net. The 2.5 and 3.0 do have a different balance factor due to the longer stroke in the 3.0.  How bad would it be to chop and change? I don't know, plenty of people have done it without problems but it can't be right.  I doubt it would 'self destruct' but over time the main bearings would probably wear faster.

Your idea of taking the two pulleys and two flywheels to the balancer should work.  They could mount each pair of pulleys/flywheels back to back and with the counterweights 180 degrees apart and then balance the new to the old. There's some high accuracy work in machining the jigs so the counterweights are 180 degrees apart.


This is the jig I use to balance my lightened flywheels:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1985-1993/46463-flywheel-balancing-jig.html (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1985-1993/46463-flywheel-balancing-jig.html)

Dad made the jig initially for the 2.5 but thought tapping two holes in either end of the main strap might come in handy.  I'm doing a 3.0 flywheel at the moment and it happens that adding a pair of M8 bolts in the tapped holes brings the jig to the 3.0 counter balance.  It took me several hours to find correct weight for the bolts but I got it eventually.

Hope this helps,
Scott
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: aggie57 on June 12, 2013, 01:46:44 PM
Marty - your approach re balancing the 2.5 flywheel for use on the 3.0 engine is correct.  That's exactly what I did 17 years ago (man was it that long ago...) when I did my conversion. Nobody else had done one in Australia up till then so I consulted Vin Sharp who suggested it and did the work for me.

The engine did several years of road and track work afterwards in two chassis and always ran sweetly.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on June 12, 2013, 02:27:24 PM
Thanks Alister, good to know. Does it matter that the 164 was an auto with an auto flywheel?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: scott.venables on June 12, 2013, 06:15:13 PM
Not as long as the counterweight is on the auto flywheel
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: aggie57 on June 13, 2013, 03:49:29 AM
Quote from: martym00se72 on June 12, 2013, 02:27:24 PM
Thanks Alister, good to know. Does it matter that the 164 was an auto with an auto flywheel?

No - doesn't matter.  The donor engine I had was also from an auto 164.  As Scott says its the overall balance you need to match; you're simply replacing one component of the overall rotating mass assembly that also includes the crank, rods, and pistons.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on July 23, 2013, 11:17:41 PM
OK, time for an update...

Had a chat with a local shop - Advanced Engine Reconditioners in Salisbury. Andy seems to know his stuff and looks to have done a pretty decent job and cost me less than they quoted but that is probably because Steve (Four90s) loaned me a crankshaft so he didn't have to make up a jig - Thanks Steve, owe you a beer :)

Not sure how much he took off - anyone know the weight of a standard 2.5 flywheel?

I have also learned the joys of rebuilding the tensioner (rather than go mechanical), replacing the rear engine mount, putting the heads back on and getting the timing belt on which surprised me at how easily it went on and stayed in place. I guess it helps when the engine is on a stand :)

I was looking through the box of bits that came back with my heads looking for the dizzy lock-down nut and found this sensor - anyone know where it should live because I can't recall where it came from. Anyone know what it is for?

Next question - my gasket kit has green plasticy intake gasket sets (you might see them in the engine photos). I was going to reuse the old gaskets but found one of the thick ones with a crack - should I just use the single plasticy one or a combination or pull a replacement thick one off the 2.5 and just use the old ones?

Photos:
1 - flywheel
2&3 - Gratuitous engine photos
4 - unknown sensor
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on July 23, 2013, 11:51:06 PM
This is a good thread, I'll certainly be using the flywheel information when I do my next 3.0 install.  First time I just used my 2.5 pulley and flywheel because I was in a hurry, and it was going to get limited use as a track car, but next time I do it will be in a road car so I will research more thoroughly.

Is that the oil pressure sender?

Is that just a generic engine stand you're using?  I was told not to do that with an alloy block, and that it must be held by the side mounts.  Seems to be working okay for you though?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Storm_X on July 24, 2013, 05:43:55 AM
Quote from: Evan Bottcher on February 23, 2013, 05:33:25 PM
Funny innit.  What's a 164 complete car worth?  $500.  What's a pair of good 164 headlights worth?  $500.  What's a good 164 3.0L v6 worth?  $500.

What is a complete 75 twin spark worth ? $1000
How much is a 75 twin spark engine worth ? $1000
How much is a 76 twin spark gearbox worth ? $1000
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Nate Dog on July 24, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
Engine shots are far too sexy to be gratuitous!!!

Looks the part. Keep the posts coming. fun thread to follow.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on July 24, 2013, 11:06:14 AM
Quote from: martym00se72 on July 23, 2013, 11:17:41 PM

I was looking through the box of bits that came back with my heads looking for the dizzy lock-down nut and found this sensor - anyone know where it should live because I can't recall where it came from. Anyone know what it is for?


Looking good Marty,

It looks like the Nox Device. It goes on the thermostat tree.

Have a look here http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetronic.htm about 1/3 (Step 3) of the way down it discusses the Nox device.

I disconnected it and reset the timing.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: scott.venables on July 24, 2013, 08:39:14 PM
The flywheel looks great.  Very light, standard weighs a 10.1kg if I remember correctly, and I'm guessing that one is around 7-7.5kg?  It might take some getting used to! 

Scott
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on July 25, 2013, 11:31:31 AM
Thanks Scott, I weighed it last night - 7.8kg including bolts but the scale only weighs in 200gm increments so not entirely accurate, but it should make a difference :)

Thanks Tim, looked at the link (like most on here I suspect, I had read Greg's pages before) and it is not the NOX device as it has come off the 164 engine heads (post NOX device era) not the thermostat housing. It does seem to fit at the back of the head near #6 cylinder but does not screw in all the way - so I have made a plug to fill that hole. I have inspected the 2.5 and cannot see a similar sensor so it is currently considered redundant for my purposes unless anyone can identify it?

Anyone got thoughts on the intake runner gaskets?

Also, thoughts turning to the cosmetic... coating for the plenum and valve covers or just back to cleaned and clear coated aluminium? The smooth covers or the ones with the raised "fins"? I am thinking black with aluminium highlights. All hoses etc are black so plan on keeping it black and silver throughout... Feel free to share engine bay photos :D
Cheers
Marty
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on July 25, 2013, 03:49:25 PM
Then I have no idea... Might be part of the Motronic fuel injection then?

What is the problem with the new intake gasket? Is it just that it is thinner?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: four90s on July 25, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
Hey Marty,

That little sender is for the oil pressure idiot light, present on all the sedans (90, 75, 164) but not on the GTV6s.

Use the the big one piece cam cover gasket if you have it. Holds together better than the other style.

Looking good, by the way.

Cheers
Steve
Adelaide.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: scott.venables on July 30, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
I should clarify the 10.1kg is without bolts. 

I like the smooth GTV6 covers painted with black wrinkle and with the script rubbed back and matching plenum.

I did mine in red wrinkle but I think I might do black next time
(http://imageshack.us/a/img239/7742/img2177zv7.jpg)
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on July 30, 2013, 01:15:46 PM
I bought some black wrinkle paint and have cleaned up the 'finned' covers ready for spraying this weekend. Depending on how much paint I have left, I might do the smooth ones too so I can see which I like more. It is all coming together now; I'm getting excited :)

I am also toying with the idea of leaving the cam belt covers off - anyone done that? How do you keep your leads etc out of the road?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on July 30, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
I have no cam covers, a bolt was sheared off in the head when I got the car and it came with no covers. The leads are just zip tied to the fuel hose. It looks pretty cool, but if I had the choice I would run the covers. It gets a little hairy bleeding the coolant or setting the timing with the cam sprockets threatening to pull your spanner (or finger) into the belt.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: aggie57 on July 30, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
Quote from: TimD on July 30, 2013, 02:11:11 PM
I have no cam covers, a bolt was sheared off in the head when I got the car and it came with no covers. The leads are just zip tied to the fuel hose. It looks pretty cool, but if I had the choice I would run the covers. It gets a little hairy bleeding the coolant or setting the timing with the cam sprockets threatening to pull your spanner (or finger) into the belt.

You mean you have no cam belt covers surely?!
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on July 30, 2013, 04:48:43 PM
Yeah, no cam belt covers.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Storm_X on July 30, 2013, 08:58:42 PM
No cam cover looks ruffer anyway. Well it does on a rb26 or 2jz.

What's with the wrinkle paint ? No one likes a nice gloss finish ?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on July 30, 2013, 10:34:54 PM
I dunno actually - I did consider gloss but then figured it would show grot and grime and mark up too - i figure on the wrinkle finish being a bit more forgiving. The only thing I am concerned about in painting it is that the bonnet felt rubs the plenum when closed so if painted may rub the paint off over time - is there any reason for the felt (other than to add weight  :P) - heat insulation? Can I just remove it?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Storm_X on July 31, 2013, 06:02:01 PM
It's heat insulation . My car has it at the moment but you can get away with it .
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on August 06, 2013, 11:38:32 PM
Crinkle paint went on over the weekend. When it went on the wet gloss look was actually pretty good. But now that it has dried and it has crinkled - really liking the look. Going to look awesome on the engine  8)
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on August 15, 2013, 11:27:53 AM
Engine went back in last night  ;D ;D

Just plonked the cam covers and plenum on to get an idea of how it looks  8)

Engine bay is the cleanest it has been in quite some time - only problem is that the only paint code that I could get a rattle can made up for is the wrong one :( They were able to make AR762 but knew nothing of AR767 - as I understand it, silver 83 GTV6's could have had either and all paint decals are no longer presnt on my car so guess work was required - I suppose my car is AR767 by process of elimination.

Any hints on getting the splined joint at the front of the drive shaft to engage? Came out easy enough but didn't want to go back in at 11:20 last night...
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Nate Dog on August 15, 2013, 01:30:38 PM
Wow,
just, wow.
Looks great.

Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: Al Campbell on August 19, 2013, 01:03:42 PM
Had never been a fan of crinkle on the cam covers & plenum but that does look rather good! Nice one dude!
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: alfagtv152 on August 19, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
Hi Marty,
I thought about leaving off the cam belt covers but while working on the engine I dropped one of the nuts from the inlet manifold
and it went straight down the belt to the crank pulley,that changed my mind. I now think that without the cam belt covers anything that gets flicked up or falls down is going to go straight around the crank pulley and wreck the timing belt,you know what that means!!!!!.
Cheers
Andrew
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on August 22, 2013, 10:00:55 PM
She lives!

Sort of anyway. No exhaust on and no radiator in but had to crank her over to see what is what (figured there is no point putting that in/on if it all turns to shite when I turn the key...). Attempt 1 at 11:45 Tuesday night yielded nothing more that 1 cylinder firing once before the battery decided it had been unloved for long enough and would go flat. Neighbors probably would agree with the battery I suppose... Unburned fuel leaking down from the plenum - so CSI is working! Changed the timing (rotated dizzy clockwise some - is that advancing or retarding the timing? I figure advancing...) and after much cranking she fired and ran, sputtering, for about 5 seconds before dying.

This is the bit that I am really uncertain about - the spanners were (in retrospect) the easy bit. Getting her to properly run is now a bit intimidating. Anyone got any pointers? I started out with the dizzy lined up #1 plug lined up with #1 lead connection to centre lead in a straight line. From there it is all guess work in my book...

Will bolting on the exhaust help get her running? Now that I know turning the key won't result in valves meeting pistons inappropriately, I will plumb in the cooling now too.
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on August 26, 2013, 12:34:48 PM
Its in and it runs! :) Idling a bit highand seems to be surging at idle - unsure why. I had to disconnect the CSI as that was flooding the engine. Not sure what to do about that yet - need to do some research I suppose.

However. In running it yesterday, I have found that the head shop did a shithouse job in replacing the cam oil seals and that there were spots of oil flinging off the cam wheels all over my nice clean engine bay. At first I thought it was the detensioner but turing off the shed lights and using a torch soon showed me. To say I am pissed & bummed at the same time is an understatement. So frigging close! So I am now tossing up whether I take it to a work shop to get it sorted or do it myself...

I lost a few hours sleep last night over this one :(   :'( How easy is the job to do this?
Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: TimD on August 27, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
Good to hear she is running Marty! I left my CSI disconnected and did not miss it over winter.

I have had a surging problem twice, both were easy to fix once I found out the cause. The first time it was the connector to the throttle position sensor. The pins had pulled out of the plug and were shorting. The second time was a bit trickier to find; It was the electrical connector to the AAV. It was not heating up and was staying open allowing lots of unmetered air into the intake. The reason it was hard to find was because the AAV appeared to function correctly when I put it in the oven. The electrical connector just helps it warm up quicker. To check if the AAV is the problem, just throttle the vacuum line from the AAV to the intake.

That sucks about the cam seals, but now you mention it, I reckon my mechanic said mine were not installed properly when he reset the valve clearances. I would not recommend those blokes to do any assembly.

Title: Re: 3.0 build - starting from scratch
Post by: martym00se72 on September 09, 2013, 02:01:55 PM
Well, I took her into Eurosport last week - I couldn't work out the tuning and she had a missfire that I couldn't diagnose. Plus Peter also filled me in that the gasket set you typically pick up does not have the required O-rings for the cam hubs so he sorted them out and they found that one of my reco'd injectors was FUBAR, hence the missfire. When in doubt - take it to a pro. She is now an absoloute ball tearer! LOVE the extra torque. So far babying it and only going to 4k (Ok, ok 4.5K if you must know... can't help it :)

Just need to sort the exhaust - started removing the welds from my previous exhaust job but then got informed by the exhaust shop that it would be better to bring it in with as is rather than in bits. I am getting flange joints between the headers and mid section which was previously welded (and a PITA to get off and on again). I had applied some muffler putty but it has been blown out mostly so sounds a bit tractor like at low revs but when the welly is in, it sounds pretty good.

Also the spot where the previously unidentified sensor at the back of the passenger side head is leaking oil. I tried fitting the sensor, once identified, and it didn't seem to seal up. Instead, I made a small stud. That didn't work aparently so I have a little work to do there...

But what's an old Alfa without some work to do on it... :D