Hey guys.
I'm looking to improve the handling of my 159 2.4. In previous cars (Subaru Liberty and Peugeot 306GTi), rear strut braces and thicker sway bars made significant improvements to handling.
With a fair bit of extra weight in the 159 now after my latest sub-project (Bazzbazz has seen my boot contents), it tends to roll a little more than when unladen. I was contemplating a suite of under body braces and front and rear strut braces.
I am also considering a thicker front and rear sway bar set.
I've read however, the braces tend to make little difference due to the 159 chassis already being pretty stiff.
Is this true?
And what about stiffer anti-roll bars like the Eibach ones on eBay?
Thanks guys.
The 159 tends to give less change in handling with the front Strut Tower Brace due to stronger towers, but also due to the way the engine mounts act in conjunction with the engine to act as a frame brace. I am comparing against say a 156 design here.
Just before you go changing the front ARB, some people have had issues with thicker/different bars rubbing on driveshafts. These have been 2.2 & 3.2 vehicles though, so I don't know if there is any issue doing it on the 2.4. Here is an link to one discussion example -
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/364711-eibach-anti-roll-bar-rubbing.html (http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/364711-eibach-anti-roll-bar-rubbing.html)
Thanks Barry.
This corroborates what I'd read elsewhere.
I think I'll start with ARBs for sure.
Hi Winno,
Powerflex in Huntingdale (Victoria) stock a full range of urethane bushes for the 159. The replacement bushes for the front upper control arms feature eccentrics allowing adjustment of camber and caster. You need to measure the length of the front lower control arm bush. Early 159's came with a shorter (and softer) bush.
I replaced every bush possible with urethane - including front ARB "D" bush. The resultant reduction in geometry change during cornering plus installation of Koni Sport (yellow) dampers transformed the car without needing to stiffen up anything like springs or ARB's. Icing on the cake was having the camber, caster and toe set by a nearby Alfa Romeo expert (and club supporter / advertiser).
Reducing geometry change and putting as much rubber as possible on the road is the secret to bring the best out of the 159. The chassis is VERY rigid!
What Colin said (re rigidity) - and I went from Subaru Liberty to 159 and am 100% sure seat of pants rigidity of 159 is way up there compared to Subi (and, liking to back my arse with some better calibrated instrumentation, did some research that shows the 159 is actually one of the more torsionally rigid chassis out there). Don't waste your time with any braces.
159 on its GM Premium platform is a seriously solid car.
Not sure it responds to performance enhancements or handling modifications though. Just doesn't seem to be that kind of car. Might explain the fairly limited market for product offering same.
Quote from: Winno on May 07, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
With a fair bit of extra weight in the 159 now after my latest sub-project (Bazzbazz has seen my boot contents), it tends to roll a little more than when unladen.
Just for the uninitiated, picture a power amplifier sound system to the degree, that at night when sitting in the driveway, when you turn the stereo on it causes all the street lighting to dim! :o
;D
The 159 responds very well to suspension development - primarily due to its torsional rigidity. Also need to remember the 159 features the equivalent of coil-overs in every corner.
Virtually EVERY suspension bush on the 159 has a polyurethane replacement available - most right here in Australia!
Any car can be made quick if it has a stable platform and the suspension keeps 100% of the rubber on the road. In my experience, installing as many poly bushes as possible on the Q4 was time and money well spent.
High 1:48's around the Island on road tyres and 100% standard engine was ok by me! Been gone for less than two weeks and I miss it already!
Hopefully the "D" setting on the QV is still enough to put a smile on your face. ;)
No doubting the performance of the Giulietta.............pity it doesnt have the steering feel of the 159! Some urethane bushes may help!?!
Quote from: Colin Edwards on May 11, 2018, 08:00:14 AM
No doubting the performance of the Giulietta.............pity it doesnt have the steering feel of the 159! Some urethane bushes may help!?!
Funny you should say that, Craig_m67 has the same opinion when comparing his Giulietta QV to his 156 Sportwagon (Gone to a better place). However I think the difference one feels may be due to the Giulietta having electric power assisted steering than the Hydro assist on the 159/156.
At 103w/kg I just don't see the 159 as a performance car. Sure I can fit it with trick bits but the increased performance is pretty marginal compared to the C63 wagon out of the box (admittedly with Quaife LSD fitted afterwards). I can't say I've put the C63 around a track because it's still big and heavy for that anyway -- and auto. Both can do the 'luxury' thing on a night out too, as opposed to say a WRX which is not a nice place to spend time in even if fun to drive fast.
One day I'll get the nolathane bushes but I suspect they'll never get tested. A remap I've considered, but again it's a pretty small gain when faster things are in the garage anyway.
Quote from: bazzbazz on May 10, 2018, 08:25:12 PM
Quote from: Winno on May 07, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
With a fair bit of extra weight in the 159 now after my latest sub-project (Bazzbazz has seen my boot contents), it tends to roll a little more than when unladen.
Just for the uninitiated, picture a power amplifier sound system to the degree, that at night when sitting in the driveway, when you turn the stereo on it causes all the street lighting to dim! :o
;D
I need a new battery already!
Quote from: kaleuclint on May 11, 2018, 06:48:00 PM
A remap I've considered, but again it's a pretty small gain when faster things are in the garage anyway.
No. It's a significant gain. My car is transformed since BPS touched it.
Quote from: Winno on May 25, 2018, 04:17:39 PM
Quote from: bazzbazz on May 10, 2018, 08:25:12 PM
Quote from: Winno on May 07, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
With a fair bit of extra weight in the 159 now after my latest sub-project (Bazzbazz has seen my boot contents), it tends to roll a little more than when unladen.
Just for the uninitiated, picture a power amplifier sound system to the degree, that at night when sitting in the driveway, when you turn the stereo on it causes all the street lighting to dim! :o
;D
I need a new battery already!
You could probably pick up one of the old Swanbank Power Stations for a cheap price! ;)
Quote from: Winno on May 25, 2018, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: kaleuclint on May 11, 2018, 06:48:00 PM
A remap I've considered, but again it's a pretty small gain when faster things are in the garage anyway.
No. It's a significant gain. My car is transformed since BPS touched it.
Don't forget, you both have different power plants, one 1750 TBi, the other early lower power Diesel.
Quote from: Winno on May 25, 2018, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: kaleuclint on May 11, 2018, 06:48:00 PM
A remap I've considered, but again it's a pretty small gain when faster things are in the garage anyway.
No. It's a significant gain. My car is transformed since BPS touched it.
What config is your car...I have a 3.2 Q4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You actually make another point Baz. We're talking a 1.75 litre engine in a reasonably heavy car for the TBi. It needed to be bigger, like the Giulia. Turbo not enough really given that's not big either. If you are chasing performance you're coming from behind to start with. Buying a car with a bigger engine would be a simpler performance boost.
Fortunately I drive in a civilised manner and am very happy with my 159!
Hi Colin,
Was reading through this thread and noted you've replaced all of your suspension bushed with polyurethane, which I did also, a couple of years ago now. It does make a huge difference to handling. I then followed up with B16 Bilstein shocks and it sits very nicely on the road. Great to have adjustable shocks, would be even better if I could access the back ones without removing the rear seat :)
Was wondering, have you come up with a fix for the sqeaky noise from the bushes? It's not constantly there and I don't do too many K's annually, so not a huge issue, but thought I might ask the question. I know of a guy who had grease nipples added. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
I used Permatex copper based anti-seize. I beleive the base lubricant is synthetic - petroleum based lubricant not good for poly bushes.
The copper / graphite based Loctite C5-A anti-seize I tried also seemed to work ok. Most noise seemed to come from the anti-rollbar "D" bushes.
Colin
Quote from: kaleuclint on May 30, 2018, 10:46:04 PM
You actually make another point Baz. We're talking a 1.75 litre engine in a reasonably heavy car for the TBi. It needed to be bigger, like the Giulia. Turbo not enough really given that's not big either. If you are chasing performance you're coming from behind to start with. Buying a car with a bigger engine would be a simpler performance boost.
Fortunately I drive in a civilised manner and am very happy with my 159!
Isn't the 1750tbi considered the best "choice" in a 159?
Must be close to the v6 in Torques
All no doubt crushed by the 2.4 derv, but power delivery is everything
I haven't looked up the relevant stats
thanks Colin, I'll give that a try. I'm having some work done next week, so I'll get my mechanic onto that. I wasn't aware of the issue with the petrol based lube, but they were all fitted by a suspension expert in Sydney, so hopefully he was?
All the best
Stuart
The Powerflex bushes I installed came with a small tube of jelly / grease type lube. My 159 was my daily drive - squeak developed after about 6 - 9 months. The anti-seize probably wont dry out like some greases and the copper / graphite virtually eliminates stiction.
If you have replaced the front upper wishbone bushes with poly eccentrics, ask your suspension bloke to dial in more caster and dial out a bit of negative camber. You and your front tyres will love the result!!
Colin
thanks again Colin,
Since replacing the bushes, I've never had to replace the tyres. I sorted the bushes because I got sick of chewing out tyres and it got worse as the car got older. Each time I went to a tyre place, I'd explain the issue with the 159 and I'd get the same response "mate, the guy doing your car has been doing it for 20-30 years, he knows what he's doing", then, inevitably, I'd have uneven wear on my tyres within a few thousand k's.
The guy at East Coast Suspension did a great job on my car. It was money well spent. I found once the car reached about 80,000k's, the ride began to suffer and it all got a bit bouncy. The only issue after replacing all of the suspension & bushes, is staying in the seat around corners. I'm not sure how hard I'd have to go around a corner to lose it now. That threshold is one I'm not prepared, or need, to test any further than I have to date. The car sits perfectly, better than it did when new, but my ass doesn't hang in there on the seating any longer, something I'd never noticed before. I've just bought a full set of Ti seats in top condition, to rectify this problem now also :) Looking forward to getting it all fitted
All the best
Stuart
Quote from: bazzbazz on May 10, 2018, 08:25:12 PM
Quote from: Winno on May 07, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
With a fair bit of extra weight in the 159 now after my latest sub-project (Bazzbazz has seen my boot contents), it tends to roll a little more than when unladen.
Just for the uninitiated, picture a power amplifier sound system to the degree, that at night when sitting in the driveway, when you turn the stereo on it causes all the street lighting to dim! :o
;D
So it's a "Black Hole" sound system, devouring energy from the environment!