QuoteVolkswagen Chairman, Ferdinand Piech, recently told the automotive press that if Fiat would allow Volkswagen to purchase Alfa Romeo, it could quadruple current Alfa sales.
Volkswagen has been trying to buy Alfa Romeo off Fiat for some time now and the urge is still there. Piech recently spoke out about his projected targets at the 2011 Geneva Motor Show.
Piech said that Volkswagen could revive the falling sales of Alfa from the current annual sales figure of around 112,000, up to 400,000 units per year within just five years.
Fiat boss, Sergio Marchionne, has previously warned that he will not sell Alfa Romeo though, saying
"As long as I am CEO of Chrysler and Fiat, Mr. Piech will never have Alfa Romeo".
Mr Marchionne has said that Mr Piech should concentrate on SEAT and fix its sales problems before looking to Alfa. Despite this, Mr Marchionne has also said that since he has been at the helm of Fiat, Alfa Romeo has been a "money loser", saying in a recent interview with Forbes,
"I'm not sure if it ever really made any money."
According to official February VFACTS figures, Alfa Romeo in Australia hasn't been doing too bad. This time last year, Alfa Romeo vehicles made up 0.1 percent of the market, this year, the company makes up 0.2 percent with sales going from 164 year-to-date in 2010 to 218 in 2011.
On the whole though, Alfa sales have dropped in larger markets like Europe and the US. The company will need to something soon, but a German Alfa, what do you think
http://www.caradvice.com.au/108149/vw-boss-piech-says-he-could-quadruple-alfa-romeo-sales/ (http://www.caradvice.com.au/108149/vw-boss-piech-says-he-could-quadruple-alfa-romeo-sales/)
I'm note sure outright sales is necesessarily the measure of success with the kind of cars we want Alfa to build.
Quote from: f1worldchamp on March 04, 2011, 04:14:54 PM
Alfa sales have dropped in larger markets like Europe and the US.
Sounds like a pretty credible source, with the huge range of Alfa dealers across America and all.
Fiat talking about what they will do with Alfa sales is a bit of a yawn, they have had more than 15 years to do something but haven't done anything to date. VW would invest money into the brand, something fiat has never done.
I think in Australia last year in car or the year VW won 4 of the 10 catorgies. Just imagine what kind of car they could build drawing on VW R&D facilities
Pretty much agree Paul save for the fact that the Italians and the Germans have been at car wars for generations. Selling to the Germans is a bit like capitulation and a diet of humble pie. It's also an admission of incompetence on the part of the Italians. So given the politics of the situation, Fiat would have to be desperate.
I can however envisage a sideways strattegy that bypasses the Germans for some other party with credibilty just to save face.
Personally, I would be very happy with an Italian design and Japanese manufacture. Best of both worlds. Great Italian know how coupled with Jap thoroughness for detail. I think that's where Fiat should be looking. Korea, the new Japan has cheap labour and a skilled workforce. Like the Japs, their quality control is very good. It could be that one could wind up with a beautifully built Alfa with full Italian character,reliable for a change and cheaper at the same time. Going to Germany would simply ramp the costs up even higher. A big no no.
..please let's not start that crappy topic about the trialed Nissan fiasco..
Bit hard to see how Alfa sales haves dropped in the US given they haven't been sold there for 15 years or so......8c excepted.
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on March 04, 2011, 06:15:15 PM
... Just imagine what kind of car they could build drawing on VW R&D facilities
Maybe an Alfetta Q4?
Regardless of who buys Alfa, FIAT need to sell it before they destroy the marque altogether. Their years of neglect is a disgrace.
Guys you have got to love an academic discussion on such topics for sure. And while with all due respect to both Gully and MD, I actually have to disagree with many of the sentiments being posted.
May I point out just a few things for consideration. Firstly, lets face it Alfa has rarely ever made a profit, and that is despite having produced many iconic cars over the past century that not just we Alfisti love, but in general most informed petrol heads admire, respect or crave to own. Sure there have been a few duds, including the car that all Alfisti wish to forget, (see I haven't mentioned it by name :) ! ), but despite Alfa's at times chaotic management, marketing and even design glitches, they are still with us and producing a range of interesting cars. Sure they are under the umbrella of Fiat, but as you all well know prior to that it was the Italian government, and other ownership in the past, and they too failed to make a profitable.
Fiat on the other hand have always existed as a private company since they were created, and that is despite numerous offers to take it over or for it to be blended with other manufacturers, as per what has happened to most of the other euro and UK car manufacturers. Hence, in one respect you can say that Alfa's DNA remains to this day totally Italian. And isn't that actually what we want, and love. Their design creativity, passion and actually yes quality.
You see I disagree with most who believe that Alfas are badly made. I actually like their build quality. Sure there are some quirkiness in some of their features and not all elements of their designs are just right, but seriously go have a look at the many appalling design features of most Japanese, Korean etc car makes, let alone Aussie ones, US ones etc. Alfas leave them for dead in so many ways.
I mean who on this planet actually thinks for a micro second that the Prius is a nice looking car, or would love to own a Kia or a Delicia !! let alone a dead boring whitegoods Toyota corolla :(.
So no guys I would seriously prefer Alfa to remain within the Fiat camp, since not only does it stay true to their culture, but also, Fiat has the design capacity and engineering excellence to draw upon from the other marques within their fold, including Ferrari, and Maserati. Despite some of the fundamental flaws with the 8C, you have to admit it is one pure sexy piece of art. Ditto the design concept for the 4C. To me in fact the many recent new models that have come out with the Alfa name, including the GT, the Brera coupe/spider, the 159, or the new Giulietta tell me that Alfa is still well and alive.
Personally I think you need to remove your bias against Fiat, for it is clouding your judgement. The Fiat 500 is a cracking car, and leaves the Mini (which is a German BMW in disguise), let alone the awful VW Beetle for dead. And for any of you who have either owned or driven Fiats in the past, you would also equally accept they too have made many superb examples of pure Italian passion.
If Alfa were to be taken over by a German company, than personally I would prefer BMW since at least they get the idea of the sports saloon so well. After all they made it their own, in taking over from the last true and the original sports saloon the Giulia sedan. Sure Subaru with the WRX have made their version, but they are too doof doof ever to be an Alfa ! Ditto the Skyline etc.
VW to me make commercial vehicles, dull saloons, and are trying now to catchup with the other 3 big German companies for the executive sedan market, but sportscars, errr no thanks as I hardly think that the Golf GTi, or their last attempt the Sirocco count in this respect. Give me an Alfa any day.
One word ... Lamborghini
The new Aventador looks fantastic and seems to be a genuine evolution of the Murcielago it replaces.
VW did Lamborghini no harm, and I'd like to see them ensure Alfa Romeo's are around for a long time to come.
David,
Nice post and a good read. Regrettably I think you short changed my take on it so I will spell it out more clearly.
Alfas. Italian design from start to finish. Italian post produciton proving prior to any sales to confirm the model has the Alfa qualities we all know and love.
Japanese/Korean parts manufacture and assembly.
The Italian component is to maintain the heritage.
The Asian component is to reduce cost.
(much like Mercedes Benz is doing)
Just for the fun of it, here's a 33 doing battle with a Golf gti
MD, I hear what you are saying and in a sense I see the logic though perhaps question the merit. I guess the thing that worries me, is the risk in making Alfas cheaply is precisely that risk. Sure Mercedes have been outsourced in some areas but from what I have heard this has actually been a problem in some respects.
I agree the Japanese, and especially Honda and perhaps Subaru's build quality is staggeringly good in comparison to what they used to produce, but the likes of Kia, Daewoo, let alone Proton or the new makes coming out of China are pretty awful for the most part. Undoubtedly with time they too will improve.
For me an Alfa has to be designed, and made in Italy for it to speak to me. I think the diluting of the Alfa's Italian DNA is actually likely to be a recipe for its demise rather than its future salvation.
As to the Lamborghini, well yes I accept this, and the links with Audi are also probably good for its image and quality control, but then again, both Ferrari and Maserati prove that they too are the equal of the linkage between Lambo and VW.
David,
One more crack at this and then I am calling it a day.
Maybe you know or maybe you dont. Very few cars made in Germany are actually made by Germans. They are actually made by all the imported labour from, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey,Albania, the ex "Eastern Block" people and a host of other nationalities. The Germans consider it below their dignity to be on the shop floor. Nevertheless, they take charge of key elements. Design, quality control, supervision and the like. So the end result is that your Mercedes or Bmw or Vw or what ever is made to the so called German standard.
Now take Alfa.If it did the same except that on this occasion, the workers were Japs & Koreans what would the difference be? An even better quality than the German stuff. Last time I looked at the results,Toyota beat Mercedes hands down as the most reliable car.
You are continuing to think that what I am saying is that Alfa should outsource everything to Asia and then the product would go down the toilet. It's not what I am saying at all. Please read carefully. It's about Alfa outsourcing the grunt work but being in charge of everything else. I cannot put it any simpler and accordingly all your assumptions are wrong. I would be proud to own an Italian designed Alfa built in Japan. Much like I would be a proud owner of an Italian designed Skyline built in Japan. Italian soul. Japanese precision. Best of both worlds. Mate I got nothing left. Peace.:D :D
Quote from: Davidm1750 on March 05, 2011, 10:26:46 AM
Personally I think you need to remove your bias against Fiat, for it is clouding your judgement. The Fiat 500 is a cracking car, and leaves the Mini (which is a German BMW in disguise), let alone the awful VW Beetle for dead. And for any of you who have either owned or driven Fiats in the past, you would also equally accept they too have made many superb examples of pure Italian passion.
VW to me make commercial vehicles, dull saloons, and are trying now to catchup with the other 3 big German companies for the executive sedan market, but sportscars, errr no thanks as I hardly think that the Golf GTi, or their last attempt the Sirocco count in this respect. Give me an Alfa any day.
Sorry mate, got to take you to task on a few issues here. I think possibly it is you that is biased, but since it's an Alfa forum that's pretty understandable I guess!! ;)
I would love to know your justification for saying the Fiat 500 leaves a Mini for dead. I've driven both cars, and the Mini is the better car dynamically. The Fiat is still an excellent little car though.
If you got over your obvious bias, you might realise that VW are one of the most accomplished car manufacturers in the world, and do make some very good sporting cars. Many European motoring writers agreed that the VW Phaeton was probably the greatest car in the world when it was released. From what I've read of the car it was almost a technical exercise to show that they could do it, and that they lose money on every Phaeton sold. As an example, one of the requirements for the car was that it should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour with an exterior temperature of 50 °C whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C, even though the Phaeton's top speed was electronically limited to 250 kilometres per hour.
As for sporting cars, well there is of course the Bugatti Veyron which was designed and built by VW, that's a pretty sporty car, but probably not relevant to this discussion. I think it's widely acknowledged that the Golf GTi is not designed to be overly sporting these days, so that's an unfair criticism in my opinion. They do however make the Golf R and the Scirocco R, both of which are fairly sporting cars. Both have around 265bhp and 350Nm, and the Golf is AWD. I haven't driven them, but reports are very good, and the Golfs predecessor, the R32, was hailed as an excellent drivers car. The Passat R36 is also highly regarded as a sporting saloon, but VWs generally are deliberately not quite as sporting as their Audi stablemates, like the RS3, RS4, RS5, RS6 - which is a reasonably sporty car, what with it's twin-turbocharged Lamborghini V10 and all. And of course there is the R10..... So, to conclude, I'm pretty confident that VW know how to make a sporting car.
Personally, I would not be concerned by the prospect of a takeover by VW.
Quote from: MD on March 05, 2011, 12:50:36 PM
Just for the fun of it, here's a 33 doing battle with a Golf gti
Good video. Holy hell, that Beetle was indecently fast, wonder what he's done to that. You'd want to have a good hard look at yourself if you're driving a 911 and a Beetle manages to get past!!
Quote from: Brad Marshall on March 05, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
One word ... Lamborghini
The new Aventador looks fantastic and seems to be a genuine evolution of the Murcielago it replaces.
VW did Lamborghini no harm, and I'd like to see them ensure Alfa Romeo's are around for a long time to come.
One word ... Optomitrist. Brad, I think it's time! Go, go now! You think you are seeing landed StarWars prop rejects, but in fact it's the latest Russian mafia/Eastern Bloc drug-lord targeted offering from ze very efficient but souless German, bottom line men. Yeah, Lambo are certainly still afloat, but I think as would happen to Alfa with a VW take over, it would be taking the very warmth and life of what really make Italian things Italian, and sticking it in the fridge until it is limp enough to conform to ze very strikt standard, ya? Salute und bend over please, zis is the most efficient way to deliver ze dollar value back to ze kompany, ya?
No thanks, give me Italy, tatty and scruffy around the edges, hasn't been cleaned or polished in a while. 'Yeah, maybe-in-a-minute-or-an-hour' attitude, but geez the food's good, the women stylish, the cars have personality, and the sense of flair in design of all things so sought after and over-priced, or copied in every boutique corner of the world is what draws people in, like a moth to the flame.
Yes, Fiat need to get their act together, and Ferrari are an example of being able to do that, but perhaps also a distraction. Whereas I fear VW might be financially more sound, but ultimately a cold and calculated road to that end.
I want to step into a car that makes me smile and want to drive it, not open a refrigerator and just transport from A to B with maximum efficiency and the approval of the worlds bean counters......
PS, my Japanese work car needs needs oil AGAIN and more electronic things cease to work..........yay.
Vin
i agree.... my 156 is utterly italian and i love it for it..... it leaves audi in the dust..... i got no issue with the build quality and soooooo much of that car just comes together....
japanese? please.
ps. i've actually been to the dresden VW factory in Germany and saw the entire production line. not any of the ethnics you've mentioned in sight. its not the run down enclave you're making it out to be... epic place - i recommend the tour if you get the chance... the joint was as sterile, clean and efficient as you'd expect from the Germans building the company's marquee car...
What is a German car anyway?, on the Volkswagon front The Passat and Golf are made in South Africa, the Polo is made in China, the new Beetle comes from Mexico, the small one comes from Brazil, i think its called the Lupo the Caddy is made in Poland and i think the Kombi comes from Spain, our cars for the time being are made in Italy, thats why we love them!, if they were as badly made and unreliable as some people would make you believe they would have gone broke years ago, remember British Leyland anyone?, Colin.
exactly.... there is nothing about italy that means poorer quality...
look at cycling or coffee machines or a whole host of other things where the italians leave all others in the dust... on the strongest points in fact is great quality materials and longevity...
it has been management of alfa and now fiat that does stupid things that harms reputation, eg, use russian steel, or bring in electronic looms and modules from the cheapest possible supplier, then unsurprisingly shit goes wrong...
but the actual fit and finish - and most importantly the drivetrain, on mine at least, is pretty mint...
can't blame alfa or italy for most of the BS abs/vdc/airbag or ecu stuff that goes wrong.... guess what?? its BOSCH.... and i mean made in germany.... airbags by siemens... etc
Geez Vin - best we got for a blast up country one Sunday in the Porker. We've shared a lot of good times over the years and I reckon that would be another! Engines in the wrong place, made by cold hard cash chasing Germans but beautiful feel, turns in when you want it to, comes on cam at 4500-5000 and just so so so much fun. Sadly too quick for the current world though. If Alfa had had the resources and want to properly develop the 116 chassis who knows what we may have now!
At this juncture the topic seems to be hovering around reliability so I'll ad my beef. All manufacurters are guilty today of breaching the fundamental engineering rule which is :
the fewer the (moving)parts, the greater the reliability
Regrettably, Alfa is going along with the market.
We have some much unnecessary crap in cars today to cater to the larde arse fraternity and useless wankers that can't operate machinery so we have to have automatic parking and a gazzilion other so called features that defies straight logic.
Is it any wonder people that truely understand machinery for what it needs to do in terms of sport cars head backwards and repair the old models instead of buying the latest and greatest.
...gezz I wonder how I ever got along without rain sensing wipers and air bags for my golf clubs? ;D
welll at least the 4c seems to be a step in the minimalist direction...
at 900kg and lotus-esque - can't have too much crap in it...
maybe not even pwr steering?