I heard that there are some twin spark motors to avoid in some 147's, not to be confused with the JTS motor that was only used in the 156, some of these 147 twin sparks had rings that caused them to burn a lot of oil, and they later went back to another design piston ring, if anyone knows about these please tell us, Colin.
Some TS engines use a different set of rings. Notably the oil control rings are thinner and therefore you could say more fragile or susceptive to becoming blocked. I would not say this is a reason to avoid them, but they are not as robust as the others. A friend of mine had rebuilt his 156 TS engine and had the pistons machined to accept the larger rings. It cut oil consumption from some absurd amount to something more manageable.
I don't know which engines used these rings but I suspect it is the later ones, i.e. 2003+
Mine is a 2002 and I go through about a litre a week. Doesn't seem to blow any smoke though. (and its not leaking)
When I use to complain about my 147s oil consumption to the service guys at Lance Dixon they claimed the 147
used different piston rings, a low friction type, not sure on the details or the production dates but it may explain the variation
in oil consumption between TS motors.
As a reference mine would use between 800ml to 1 litre of oil every 3000 km, whereas a mate of mine who had an early 99 156 TS
at the same time had no such issues. I was told if the oil consumption exceeded this amount then there would be a problem but it never did. I did hear of another 147 at the time having its engine rebuilt under warranty.
I too would say it's no reason to avoid them, however 'robust' is hardly a term I would use to describe a 156 or 147.
But an Alfetta sedan....thats any story :) a real battler like a faithful old friend ;)
P.S Brother in law has an Audi A6 2.0 T (detuned version of the Golf Mk V GTi donk) uses oil like a demon 1 litre + every 2000km
apparently these engines have oil consumption issues as well - German engineering pfft
Cheers
Pep
I had a 2001 147 TS for 2 years between 2007 and 2009. I didn't use hardly any oil but I suppose I was pretty meticulous in changing the oil every 5,000kms.
yeah, i wouldn't worry about it either... it's a 10 yo car now, and the TS isn't really a big deal for a diyer to pull the head and extract the whole piston after dropping the sump... u can take the pistons to a machine shop and have new rings fitted.... new HG while u stick the head back on, clean up the head and sump and voila, quick recon...
10 yrs + an alfa is about due for a HG anyway :D
same thing applies to any cars, but alfa especially.... upon checking out a second hand car, check the oil condition... a car that has a hard time with oil usually has forgetful or unaware owners and they almost always will be running low and dirty.... every TS and JTS i inspected had low oil... the v6 i bought had oil at max and sure enuff, even switching down to 10w-40 it does not consume any!
simple clues... :)
Quote from: 155 lover on June 21, 2011, 08:57:11 AM
I had a 2001 147 TS for 2 years between 2007 and 2009. I didn't use hardly any oil but I suppose I was pretty meticulous in changing the oil every 5,000kms.
And what I wasn't ? ;)
I think its more of the fact you had a good example. Meticulous oil changes should be a standard mindset i.e oil every 5000km, oil & filter every 10000km, on an Alfa or at least a car you give a shit about....
Thats what made it frustrating, more so the car it had replaced a 75 TS used very little oil and wasn't treated like a princess.
The dealer at the time was defaulting to 10W/60 (recommeded for harder conditions/spirited driving in the owners manaul - Selena Racing), as opposed to the standard recomendation of 10W/40.
Didn't matter the thing used oil - I had to suck it up & get over it.
Still a nice car though my wife still talks about - $#^%$%^
I believe these engines use oil because of the engine, not the oil. My 147 has about the best service history you could imagine and it does use oil, about 1L every 2-3000km using Selenia racing. I am going to switch to 10/40 because Selenia racing is an unnecessary expense.
My dad's Falcon will use 2L every 5000km and my brother in-laws corolla is about the same. There are many other engines that also have high oil consumption but they dont seem to get a reputation for it.
Many Audi's are notorious for using oil. I had an Audi-owning friend who, when arriving at a servo, used to say "Fill 'er up .... and can you check the petrol too thanks".
;D
Quote from: Steve S on June 21, 2011, 02:09:21 PM
I believe these engines use oil because of the engine, not the oil. My 147 has about the best service history you could imagine and it does use oil, about 1L every 2-3000km using Selenia racing. I am going to switch to 10/40 because Selenia racing is an unnecessary expense.
My dad's Falcon will use 2L every 5000km and my brother in-laws corolla is about the same. There are many other engines that also have high oil consumption but they dont seem to get a reputation for it.
Blood Oath - Exactly
Quote from: L4OMEO on June 21, 2011, 02:18:49 PM
Many Audi's are notorious for using oil. I had an Audi-owning friend who, when arriving at a servo, used to say "Fill 'er up .... and can you check the petrol too thanks".
;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
My Brother in laws going through that atm and I give him heaps for it.
The Audi dealer told him to rock up when ever he wants with empty oil containers and they will give him free oil, so when we have a family function
I turn up with an empty Penrite container and say - Here ya go here's another one for ya for your next trip to Audi Melbourne chief.
Thats a good one Rory, ill use that at the next family dinner !
Do not know the specifics but a dealer previously stated that all twin spark engines are not the same.
The 98/99 engine is ok and does not use oil.
The 2000/2001 across the series of cars is the 147 motor that does use oil !
Then 2002 is ok.
All about the rings and such like so the power is different too. 121 vs 110.
CHeers
Quote from: John Hanslow on June 21, 2011, 04:50:44 PM
All about the rings and such like so the power is different too. 121 vs 110.
CHeers
no factory TS was 121kw... i think you mean 114 v 110... that was early cf2 vs 3 which brought in more cats...
121kw may refer to JTS, but to be blunt, that was never 121kw either...
Our 2000/2001 156 TS uses virtually no oil, and our 2003 147 TS also used next to nothing.
In support of Steve's comments, I have heard before that the size of the oil rings were changed in later models to reduce friction and potentially improve fuel consumption.
You are correct wanski re 121kw for JTS. As for the TS, there marginal difference and examples:
http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2001/prestige-and-luxury/alfa-romeo/147/alfa-romeo-147-3048 (http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2001/prestige-and-luxury/alfa-romeo/147/alfa-romeo-147-3048)
QuotePowering the 147 is Alfa's 2.0-litre Twin Spark four, which uses twin counter-rotating balance shafts, a twin spark, 16-valve cylinder head and electro-hydraulic variable valve timing to pump out 110 kW at 6300 rpm and 181 Nm at 3800 rpm.
http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/2006/medium-passenger/alfa-romeo/spider/used-car-advice-alfa-romeo-spider-199803-7423 (http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/2006/medium-passenger/alfa-romeo/spider/used-car-advice-alfa-romeo-spider-199803-7423)
QuoteIntroduced at over $60,000 as a 2.0-litre four-cylinder only, the Spider was a big ask with 114kW arriving at 6000rpm to shift almost 1400kg
So if you were looking at a 147 twin spark, how would you know if you are looking at low friction, narrow ringed, oil burning motor to a normal friction, wider ringed, motor that doesn't burn oil, hold a white rag over the exhaust and check for oil residue, do a compression check, engine numbers, etc any ideas?, Colin.
My 99 TS 156 doesn't burn oil. My sisters 2005 147 is the same.
I always believed the JTS motor is a heavy burner of oil and have heard that if not serviced regularly ie every 5000kms problems can arise. There was a rumour that in the JTS, fuel would slip through the rings and down into the sump. Hence why in some JTS motors when you drop the oil it is significantly black. My TS after 5000 is still gold.
I have considered upgrading the 156 to a GT possibly for a JTS version (lower fuel bill compared to a v6 and the fact that a 4cylinder is just as sufficient for my needs) but after hearing this unproven rumour i was a bit tentative. Anyone heard something along these lines?
I have a 156 JTS, and it uses about 250 mlls of oil every month or 1600 kilometres, the JTS stands for high pressure fuel mixture, and the jet of fuel from the injector can go through your finger!, in the real world this means there is high pressure in the combustion chamber which can force fuel past the rings causing the fuel to wash the oil off the bore, and causing the oil to be diluted with fuel, this is why extending oil changes in JTS's is a no-no!, but if you take for a good run everyday the dilution won't be a problem, as it will get burnt out, however if you do short runs and the engine doesn't warm up properly, your oil will be diluted and there will be a reduction in oil quality, so for short runs, change your oil more regulary, say at even 5,000 kilometres, i beleive that this is one of the reasons that JTS camshafts are prone to wearing out due to diluted oil being used, that have the lubrication property of petrol, also, some oils have a lot of detergant in them, [Castrol i have heard], and after a days running the oil turns black, this is not because its worn out, but because its cleaning the rubbish out of your engine, Colin.
i am going to skip the jts debate - but HIGHLY recommend the arese v6.... dude, just do it...
been looking @ GTs for a friend and the v6 is not much more expensive if much the same, and it is faaaaar better motor, reliability, power, sound it's what makes alfa, well.. ALFA.
jts has some good character, but the 3.2 v6 is one of the best naturally aspirated v6s in the world...JMO.
Thanks for your replies.
An upgrade is some time off and since my 156 is probably not going to be worth much i think it will be best to keep it. I just am so amazed by the amount of power the TS has. I had a 33 16valve and 75TS before but i must say this kills them both. It just drives so well and whenever i take it for a blast i have second thoughts. The 156 feels like an extension of myself when i drive it. I never have to think twice when i overtake, corner faster or even pulling up fast and seriously when you find a car like that even though its a little older now why would you want to change it apart from the excitement of owning another alfa.
With regards to the JTS debate, how can anyone find a car with good history? Most people are not fussy like you or I and think oils are oils.
Regarding the twin spark vs JTS vs V-6 debate, there is no right or wrong answers, just different opinions, the twin spark is a great engine, but the airconditioner vents in the first series 156's are not as good as the 2nd series 156 which had the bigger centre vents, cruise control, stability control, curtain air bags etc, and the JTS engine replaced the twin spark motor, the V-6 would have to be one of the greatest production engines ever made, and it was a proper Alfa Romeo engine, where the 4 cylinders twin sparks were Fiat based and the JTS engine was used in the Lancia Lybra, the V-6 has a great exhaust note, but is a big lump of an engine that causes more understeer than the lighter 4's, so on a road with lots of corners the V-6 would be more of a handfull, also the V-6 has higher cambelt replacement costs $2500 vs $1200 for the 4, but it might boil down to one thats in best condition or whether you can put up with poorer aircon, but no matter what, they are all great cars for us, as Clarkson said on top gear, you are not a petrol head unless you have owned a Alfa Romeo, Colin.
ha, all true!
but the belt costs are a bit high - specialist and dealer pricing - can be done for around $1500 for the sixes....
likewise, around 900 for the 4 bangers, altho they do have variators which are expensive locally - add ~$300.
so, much of a muchness. arguably the 6s have less cambelt problems and officially did not suffer the reduction from 5 to 3 yrs cf the 4s...
handling wise - if you care, once u fit a q2 and uprate the dampners there is no contest, the 4s eat the dust of the 6s. much has been said and made of the 'extra weight of the 6s' - which i personally believe is overblown... it is a iron block 4 vs all alloy 6 afterall, the TS alloy head ain't that big! iron is of course ~ 3x denser than aluminium.
but yes, the v6 weighs a bit more, and i think the under dampened (and sprung) handling vices are merely exacerbated in the heavier 6s which were always set up for more luxury than sport from the factory. Until u hit the GTA that is... 8)
Mr Wankski, you say you can fit a Q2 diff to a V-6, correct me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that the Q-2's are only for the 3.2V-6 GTA's with the 6 speed gearbox, are you saying you can fit a Q-2 to a 5 speed V-6?, Colin.
Col q2 can be fitted to many v6 alfa romeo's from the modern era ie 166, 156, GTA, GTV. I believe wankski has a Q2 in his 156. Q2's also came stock in some diesels such as 147 and I believe some petrol models in europe.
See link http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/156-147-GT-Q2%20Differential.shtml
Quote from: colcol on August 04, 2011, 09:04:40 PM
Mr Wankski, you say you can fit a Q2 diff to a V-6, correct me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that the Q-2's are only for the 3.2V-6 GTA's with the 6 speed gearbox, are you saying you can fit a Q-2 to a 5 speed V-6?, Colin.
not only the GTA 6sp box. The 2.5 v6 w/ 6sp transmission is the same gearbox, so can be fitted. The facelift cf3 is rare yes, but the 'phase 1' preface lift is pretty common to get in manual. They are all 6sp.
the phase 1 gtvs came with 5sp boxes, but can still be fitted with modded speedo pick up. The phase 2 and 3 with the same 6sp box can of course be fitted.
my 04 156 2.5 v6 has a q2 inside ;)
Quote from: ANG156 on August 04, 2011, 09:19:38 PM
Col q2 can be fitted to many v6 alfa romeo's from the modern era ie 166, 156, GTA, GTV. I believe wankski has a Q2 in his 156. Q2's also came stock in some diesels such as 147 and I believe some petrol models in europe.
See link http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/156-147-GT-Q2%20Differential.shtml
all true 8)
I was at a very wet Winton with my 2.0 TS the other week. The standard diff was very underwhelming! Has anyone fitted one of the Quaife LSDs to their TwinSparks?
When you say the standard diff was underwhelming, what do you mean by that?, i have heard that some LSD's in front wheel drives unless set up correctly can be a real handfull, i fear that the main problem with the 156 being a good trackcar is like this person writing this, is that they are too heavy, a tubby Colin.
Colin, there was just too much wheelspin coming out of the corners. I suspect the LSD would reduce this somewhat. I've also read they improve steering response.
Cheers,
PB
A friend has a Quaife in a FWD Fiat. They do induce a lot of "power on" understeer and really change the handling dynamics.
Steve, I was hoping for more oversteer, as I have plenty of understeer now!
Try left foot braking, it will put weight on the front wheels, and make it turn better, and don't apply power until you start to wind off lock, Colin.
Thanks for the tip Colin. Unfortunately when I try something fancy like that, I find my legs suffering dyslexia - therefore technology is key!
I have size 12 shoes, i can hit all 3 pedals at once with 1 shoe, i want to build a brake pedal like the miniture aussie legends have, as on the motor racing on c 73 at Ipswitch, the master cylinder is behind the steering column, and the pedal extends out to the right for perfect heeling and toeing, and there is an extension out to the left for perfect left foot braking, the 156 is not as easy to heel\toe and left foot brake as a Alfasud or 33, so you will need to practice a bit, but the 156 doesn't have gear crunching synchro issues like Suds and 33's, so with the 156 you get lazy, Colin.
I find the 156 and 147 pretty tricky to heel and toe. The accelerator is quite a distance away from the brake and is a lot lower than the brake pad. Still practising but is much more difficult than a 105.
You may need to do some pedal work, i did on my 33 about 25 years ago, and it works great, because with Alfasuds and 33's if you don't heel and toe, then you WILL crunch 2nd gear, with the 156, its a different story, the synchros are so strong and long lasting, heeling and toeing is an option, but consider bending the accelerator and brake pedal closer together, or maybe some of those 'racing' pedals off ebay, which means you could 'adjust' the position of the pedal, Colin.