Greetings from Sydney everyone. Ok, I have had a bit to do with AROCA in the past as I used to participate in their supersprints here in Sydney many years ago. Must say, lovely bunch of people and we had some great times.
The reason for this post other than to say hello is that I am evaluating purchasing a 156 GTA race car to use both at the state level and sponsorship permitting for the Australian Manufacturers Championship. The car has run before in the Bathurst 2hr showdown back in the Procar days and with the 2nd owner at State level here in NSW.
Now here is the rub, what I need to know from all you Alfa aficionados is how competitive the car will be from a power point of view. We are running the car under 3E regulations so it means we can't modify anything within the engine or gearbox. We are allowed ECU changes or piggybacks etc and exhaust changes from the junction of the headers back.
Off the shelf the figure is 250hp. Now the owner of the car believes they are putting out 270hp+. I would say that with a good exhaust and some decent mapping 20hp is probably not a stretch. Now for the car to be really competitive against the likes of the 2011 Mazda 3 MPS (at National Level) and the EVO 6 (and earlier all running 1bar boost) at State level, we really need to be making closer to 280+ and have the suspension set up like a bullet.
So my new friends; What is possible for Alfa 3.2 V6 GTA engine that you folks may have done / experienced etc. I know what is possible outside the rules (read 3.7ltrs) but I want to know whether we are setting ourselves too greater task. Many thaniks in advance.
Genghis :)
Genghis,
I know stuff all about the 3Eregs and I am not about to dive in head first. I can think of less boring ways to spend an afternoon..
Having said that, I am happy to offer some generic advice which you can determine if it can be incorporated or not..
Reduce the weight and then reduce it some more. Loose some personal weight also.
Fit smaller diameter rims and tyres to get shorter gearing without changing the gearbox.
Run minimal fuel on board.
Run motorcycle battery.
Run miniture alternator
Use minimal instrumentaion to save weight
Use a cut down loom just to run the engine to save weight
As for any significant power gains by changing the exhaust system at the end of the factory manifold is wishfull thinking. Basically the induction side is tuned to the exhaust side. This involves diameters and lengths. For a race engine, the tuned lengths are nowhere near the RPM bands used by street engines. Effectively race engine specifications factor in the rev range intended to work in and so the intakes and exhausts are matched to suit.
What you are suggesting is that one takes a street engine spec, ad a less restrictive muffler and some
black magic tuning and you get a possible 20bhp increase, well I never say never but for a 4 cylinder street engine, it took a conversion to throttle bodies and a tuned set of headers of even length, merge collector and 62mm exhaust system, a Motec ECU to make an increase of 25hp without any other internal engine changes.
If you cannot do the weight saving thing, I think the outcome will be borderline.
You might want to have a chat to Hugh Harrison of Alpha Repairs, a long time club advertiser (see AROCA Vic hope page for Sponsor links), he used to run the 147 GTA race car. He would be a very useful friend to have, for lots of reasons.
Many thanks for your feedback gentlemen. I spoke to Hugh a few years ago now when he still had the 147. The issue at the time was breaks but changes in the rules since then allow you to run the later model brakes.
I am talking to an Alfa specialist here in Sydney tomorrow and will also give Hugh a call (love the Yellow Ignis car he is driving in Historics) as between both of them I will be able to get a good idea of what is truly possible and what is just wishful thinking.
Cheers
Genghis
call powerchip a mate got this done to his 3.2gtv and it was off the hook,
If you proceed with this acquisition and undertake the recommended changes, please post your outcomes as I am always willing to learn from mistakes. For competition reasons I am not expecting a revelation of actual numbers just a simple statement to the effect that the mission is accomplished will do.
I concur with MD, I too would like to know how far removed from the hook it becomes :)
I suspect this is the car you are looking at (in photo below)
some of the times it was doing in '08 are can be found here http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?21/09/2008.WAKE
That weekend it was driven by David Stone, who is a good steerer.
Like others have suggested, I dont think the power will be you main issue, it will be weight.
Quote from: dehne on April 11, 2011, 12:15:15 AM
call powerchip a mate got this done to his 3.2gtv and it was off the hook,
Powerchip are the dodgiest single proprietor on the face of the earth. Try googling them and the Proprietor Wayne Besanko some time. Many court cases and blown up motors in their history.
Again thanks for all the feedback.
alfagtv58 I am glad you have picked up on what car I am talking about and thank you very much for providing that link. Now what I have to do is get in contact with David to see what his opinion was of the car (on the day). I am experienced enough with race cars to know that it is nearly always better to buy one that someone has already spent a good deal of blood / sweat / tears and money on than try to re-invent the wheel (pardon the pun).
I also know the best money that can be spent on a car to make it faster is track time for the driver. It is no good throwing money at 'go fast' bits until you know that you are faster than the car. What I was actually trying to ascertain is whether a 156 GTA could be competitive against other cars in it's class and when you do get into the invevitable arms race you are not going to run out of silk purse material.
There are a lot of things within the rules that can help take some weight out of the car. I spoke to Hugh this morning and he highlighted the strengths and weaknesses of the 147 he ran. And now I can see the times that David put in I can start to investigate further as to what other variables there are (tyre compounds, spring rates etc).
Bottom line is the Alfa has much more sex appeal to a sponsor than a Mazda 3 MPS (main competitor in the AMC who is a good steerer) but we still have to be able to be at the pointy end no matter how shiny the Rosso Corsa is. :)
Thanks again
Genghis
In my humble opinion, the weakest link in that car will always be the front wheel drive issue, the front tyres do all the going and all the stopping, hope you have deep pockets to keep the front rubber fresh. Same issue with fwd rally cars. Very quick for a little while, then if you don't freshen the front tryes it goes pear shape real quick.
Yes a new set of boots for the front at every meeting is a given in the budget. Obviously for endurance races like the Sandown 500 there will be a whole new set of issues that present themselves. Fortunately not all the 156's that have / are raced around the world do so on slicks so there is a good deal of data out there on some of the issues that may be related specifically to this car.
Cheers
Genghis
I did 750km in one weekend at Wakefield in this car when I first built it without an issue, not to mention the 2hr at Bathurst in 03 on debut, this car never let me down, but we maintained it with no expense spared. This was the first fwd car I ever raced, and once we set it up :o, especially in the wet, it was soooo fast with the wet weather set up.
BTW, we got 240hp at the wheels out of the standard GTA engine that is in the orange beast, only mod was EMS, and headers, exhaust system, if that helps
Good luck,
Dave
Thanks Dave,
PM Sent.
Genghis
Hi folks,
Just a quick update to let you know that the evaluation continues and I have been in contact with the original owner, the current owner and a quick experienced Alfa driver who has driven the car and various reliable 'go fast' people. So I thought I would share a little bit of information about some tech details that might be of interest to others on this forum. Here are the CAMS legal changes we can make to this car since it was built. I hope to be able to see the car later this week.
1. All rubber suspension bushings can now be replaced with Nolothane etc bushings.
2. The Cats in the exhaust headers can be removed and no cats need to be run at all
3. Interior door trims etc can be replaced with another material as long as it is not CF
4. If it doesn't have them already the front brakes can be changed from 305mm to 330mm
5. The racing weight of the car (the weight the car has to be with driver, fuel etc when it comes in off the track) is 1381kg. I believe the car weighs around 1370kg without driver and since I weigh 75 kg with suit, helmet etc it would be great (not easy though) to find 20+ kg to take out.
6. Pulleys on the engine are free (so you can run light weight ones)
Also for your information the racing weight for a 147 GTA is actually 1394kg. The only real difference (other than choice of looks) under the rules is that you could run a Selespeed in a 147.
Will keep the updates coming if you guys are interested.
Genghis
Hello again folks.
Saw the car yesterday. It is in great condition other than some stone chips and a couple of tiny 'battle scars'. Engine started first time from dead cold and it has been well looked after by a car enthusiast / driver. It does still have the smaller brakes at the front and obviously still has the cats. There is a little bit of obvious weight in door trims etc that can be replaced so at this stage it all looks good.
If I want to run it in endurance races it will need a 90 ltr tank (CAMS limit for this size motor) and a new siamese dry brake system rather than the old vent and filler units. So the bottom line is that there is still some more performance in the car that could make it competitive at the endurance level but there is also some more that has to be spent on the car to make it that way.
Just have to unload the DC2 now :( and take it from there. Car has a few spares (including the original engine with a stuffed head) but things like brakes won't be relevant as I will be moving to the bigger ones.
And yes when you are up close and personal it is a very sexy machine and sounds like, well I do I really need to tell this forum what a racing 3.2 GTA sounds like? ;)
Genghis
DC2?
JDM Honda Integra DC2.
Hi again folks. As a matter of interest does anyone know what happened to the Silver 156 GTA that raced in the 2003 Bathurst 12 hour at all? It was driven by Andrew Leithhead. It and the red one I am looking was the other one of the 2 GTAs that were sold as non-complianced cars by Ateco at the time.
I know it had a crash at the 19.5 hour mark but don't know what happened to the car after that.
Cheers
Genghis
Andrew L still has it
Was professioally fixed and has raced since then.
In in storage
Can find his contact details if you require them.
Robert
That would be great if you can find them for me. Just PM the info when you have it.
Very much appreciated.
Genghis
Quote from: alfagtv58 on April 11, 2011, 09:03:27 AM
I suspect this is the car you are looking at (in photo below)
some of the times it was doing in '08 are can be found here http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?21/09/2008.WAKE
That weekend it was driven by David Stone, who is a good steerer.
Like others have suggested, I dont think the power will be you main issue, it will be weight.
This is kind of spooky. I have just joined the boards as I'm new to Alfa ownership. I came across this post by chance, it's funny because I was at that very same race meeting, but in superkarts! Pretty off chance because I only did two race meetings that year.