Got the new 90 today. I've only had a cursory look over it but it looks to be in exceptional shape body-wise EXCEPT for rust at the base of both B-pillars ???. I was really quite surprised to find it because the rest of the body seems to be pristine as far as rust goes. Panels are all dead straight, panel gaps are excellent and the paint all looks original (evidenced by someone going too hard with a buffer and showing undercoat in a few spots). I can live with the paint (I always said I'd never own another red car...... ;))
Has anyone seen this rust area on a 90 (or Alfwetta or 75) before. I've seen some pretty rusty Alfettas in my time but never witnessed rust in this area.
As it's almost identical both sides, I reckon that counts out a bad crash repair. I can only surmise it's the result of pooling water on top of the seal after a wash/rain????
Ask Stuart Thomson on B-pillar rust.
Search his shitbox rally 90, I believe there is a picture of his B-pillar rust.
the most common places for a 90 to rust is the B pillar and drivers front guard, have had a few that have rust in the pillar and the guard, bet you can wait to give it a good thrash
go here for Stuart's post
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=7580.0
Damn, I really didn't need to see something like that............... >:(
Also check out
http://www.siriuscybernetics.org.au/Siriuscybernetics/Shitbox_Rally_2012/Entries/2012/2/5_B-pillars_may_now_hold_up_the_roof.html
Cheers
Stuart
Had significant rust in my drivers side B Pillar as well.
Hello Paul
Congratulations on the new Alfa Romeo 90 V6 2.5 litre, at least you know you have a local buyer if you ever change your mind again ;) !
Should be alot of fun if you have been Alfaless for so long, the 90 may not be the prince in the looks department but damn they are comfortable, fit the kids and great fun for a cruise down the shops or thru the mountains!
How is she mechanically, running, idling no problems?
Interestingly i just repaired that same rust section last month on one of my 90s, it was on the drivers side, the other side was mint and my other 90 is mint both sides so just the luck of the draw i guess, best thing you can do for the 1980s Alfa Romeos is purchase some cans of rust proof spray and spray it into all the sections, just an afternoon job but may save it for the future, keep us updated on your progress with her!
Thankyou VeeSix :)
Thanks veeSix,
I'm fairly well-versed when it comes to the application of rustproofing. At this stage I'm going to bite the bullet and have the rust repaired 'properly', before stripping the car for a full rustproof, clean, tidy, detail.
Surprisingly, in my pre-buy enquiries, no-one mentioned rusty B pillars. All i heard was how good 90s are for rust, being galvanised etc etc etc. If I had have been aware of this as an area of concern I would have asked the seller the specific question. I didn't have a chance to inspect the car, and would probably have missed this area if I did. But that's the risk you take, and I've been incredibly lucky to date, so at least thuis little surprise was on a cheaper car. I have the means and skills to fix it myself, but seem to have lost the will somewhere along the way.... :D
I think Alfa galvanised the panels, then welded the things together................ >:(
DEHNE: So where exactly to I look for the now-infamous rusty driver's side guard? Ande how do I get the sill covers off?
Hello Paul
Wow! I did not realise you were going that far with her, full stripdown etc, i thought you were just going to jump in and drive, keep us updated with repair photes along the way, always something to learn
I have had alot of 90s Paul, from my experience the main serious rust areas are the bottom of b pillars, bottom of 1/4 panels door side and the boot outer edge where the weather seal goes around particularly below the rear window, pull up the weather seal and check underneath, quite a bad area if the rust breaks thru as water starts getting into the boot and damaging the carpets
To remove the sill covers Paul you need to realease it from the clips undedrneath, you usually have to break most of these, then slide it off the other clips, if you have rust in the b pillar then there is usually some in that area behind the sill cover, the one that i mentioned i repaired about a month ago actually had two rust holes in this area for being left untreated for so long, but an easy fix and that area is not visible anyway
Thankyou VeeSix :)
When I say 'strip' I really just mean removing seats, carpets, door trims etc. Maybe bumpers, grille, lights. One, to give it all a good clean, and two, to keep rustproofing agent off the soft furnishings.
I see the car has neat fairings along the roof gutters. Probably to reduce noise and improve drag figure, but they really look like a crud-trap just begging to rust out the gutters and through the roof. Can you get these things off readily without damage? If you leave them off does it look odd, or just like a normal Alfetta roof gutter?
Also, how do I remove the external plastic trim pieces that run up the C pillars beside the rear window (body coloured)? I assume they are bolted through the pillars?
Hello Paul
The side roof covers require drilling out of the pot rivets and then carefully prising away, if you take your time you can get away with removing them with no damage and replacing, i have removed a few Paul and surpringly i have never found any rust in these sections
The rear vent panels Paul are a different story, they are just a sort of pressed in cilp fit but they are just too easy to bend out of shape, if they have been removed before you may have a chance to get away with it, but if they have never been removed i would not recommend removing them especially if it is your first time, i have found minor rust in these sections, if you bend these panels you will be dong alot of work getting them straight again and then you will most likly have to respray, hard decision to make rust repair versus panel damage
Thankyou VeeSix :)
Thanks for the warnings VeeSix.
So I'll leave the gutters in place and just give them a good clean, dry out, and squirt in some rustproofing.
For the vent panels it sounds like I need to practice on someone else's car....... ;) Or maybe the panels can safely be popped off with a ballon and compressed air, or some carefully placed, directed explosives :D
OK, so a failed rego inspection has forced my hand. Initially I was going to pay a panelbeater but figure I've spent a half a lifetime amassing a shed full of tools (and a shed), so it would be pretty slack not to attempt the repairs myself.
I recently purchased a cheap video scope, and picked up a secondhand laptop for $50. It's been pretty handy so far for inspecting the inner sills to determine just how much metal I need to cut out to get all the rust, and give me good steel to weld. Once I'd inspected I cut a largish hole in the inner section of the lower B-pillar, now knowing what was behind the panel.
Today I purchased a cheap Ozito multi-tool and some decent blades, and it's been a godsend for cutting out steel sections up close to curved sections. or on lapped sections where you only want to cut the top sheet. It doesn't replace a grinder and fine cutting disc (particularly given the price of the blades) but certainly has it's place.
Practice on this side (LH) then get serious on the right side. Which looks to be worse externally.
The LH side has had some repairs in the past. I'm still mystified why people go to the trouble then fail to treat the inner sections and back of bare welds with something like fishoil or lanoline. The welds start rusting before they are cool ::)
Progress has been sporadic = S L O W !!!
RH sill had not had prior repairs, so looked worse externally but not actually as badly rusted, and little simpler to fix (plus my confidence was up after having done the LH side). I opted to go for practicality rather than neatness along the lower edge of the repair sections, opening them up so they will drain freely. The repair area is mostly covered by the sill trims, so while it's a complex shape to work with, the ultimate finish is only critical on a small area.
Once you see how the base of the B-pillar intefraces the sill, you can see why they rust in this area
More progress. Now ready for a few coats of AR530 red, then copious amounts of rustroofing agent ............
That looks like is a quality repair there Paul! Much better then my effort on our first 90 :)
errr...
as to the quality repair, Paul, the welding looks pretty good, but on the bottom panel shouldn't you grind that flat?
My 2 cents, but if you dont and leave overhangs then surface tension will make natural welling points beneath each one and you'll be getting rust again?
Or is that just a shadow from the angle of the pic?
Anyway, if i'm wrong happy to be corrected.
Nate
Quote from: Nate Dog on August 04, 2013, 10:49:54 PM
errr...
as to the quality repair, Paul, the welding looks pretty good, but on the bottom panel shouldn't you grind that flat?
It wasn't flat when it left the factory.
It is a notorious rust point on the 90, I believe for the very reason you stated.
I had a 90 with rust in the same place on both sides...
You may be chasing shadows Nate... ;D
Basically that section of the factory B-pillar is spot welded to the outer sill. The sill is one continuous piece all the way under the pillar so the result is plenty of metal-to-metal contact with very little in the way of effective drainage, and even less in the way of seam sealing. The factory did apply galvanising to the metal, but after 15 years+, corrosion is inevitable.
I copied the factory shape, but prised drains into the overlaid sheetmetal, in between the welds (which is what I believe you can see). It's covered by plastic when the car is reassembled so while it ain't pretty, it is serviceable.
I've also worked along the underside of the sill to open up drainage.
On one side of the car the sealing around the seatbelt anchor point forms a dam inside the sill (I have a videoscope hooked to a laptop), on the other side I don't see any sealing at all. So I suspect Antonio and Paulo got their destra e sinistra confused and double-dosed one side. I've since remedied that water trap.
The whole car will get a good dose of rustproofer once I've tidied up a few other spots of corrosion.
So the 90 may never be pretty, she should be OK to use regularly and in anger.
I was quoted $700 to fix the rust in the pillars. To date it couldn't have cost me more than $1200 in products and extra tooling to do it myself........ :) ;)
Lmao. ;D ;D ;D
Good work Paul.
Sounds like we repair cars the same way :)
Can't help but feel a little cheated whenever i get anyone else to do repairs on my cars. Despite the best reputation on earth and no amount of inspection on my part ever convinces me they've gone to the same attention to details i would've gone to.
Keep the pics coming. Nice work on the repair
Nice work. I need to learn to weld! Na, leave it to you! 8)
Ha ha, the photos don't do it justice Shiny_car. I can't weld for s%$#@t!!!! Thankfully though, I'm an expert with a 4" angle grinder.............
Nate: I agree to a point. I find being that little bit anal sometimes means I stuff things up because I couldn't leave well enough alone. You know how it is...I'll just touch that paint up with one more coat....or I'll just go over that sealant line one more time.... :) A pro does it once, does it quickly, then gets onto the next job.
When I ran all the wiring for my shed, the electrician who came to connect and test it all asked me if I wanted a job !!!i I told him he couldn't afford me as I'm so damn slow (apart from not being qualified).
Finally got the colour onto it. I removed the masking, feathered the edges of the primer into the old paint so the lines wouldn't show through, final prep, then gave her 3.5 coats of auto acrylic touch-up paint from a spray can (two small cans). Photos aren't clear (too much light) but it turned out much better than I'd expected on the visible-after-reassembled sections. The rest I wasn't concerned about, and the hidden parts will all get a coating of lanoline/wax preserver before the plastics go on.
I'll leave it for the week then a light burnish/polish to finish.
Special mention to Steve (Four90s) for putting me on to the PowerPlus Milano Red PJ5124 which is a match for the AR530, or at least matches the shade on my pillars :D
http://wiki.r31skylineclub.com/images/f/f9/Paint-codes.pdf
Not the best or most economical choice for paint, but damn convenient!! Steve mentioned that it looked too dark in the shop, and he was right. I bought the paint then returned with a C-pillar panel looking for a better match to the colour on the lid of the cans, to no avail. Lucky I stuck with the ones I had because the colour match is excellent. Even the trial spray on white paper made the colour look very dark (plum) but by the third coat on the car the match is great.
Hint. If you use more than one can keep the empties in case one of the spray nozzles blocks up mid-spray.... ;)
Well done Paul. I think given what you were working with and I like your temporary spray booth ;D that the results look really well done.
When cutting back to give it shine, if you use 1200-2000 grade wet and dry paper with warm water and soap, that should work a treat. Afterall all you need to do is remove any surface orange peel and after that should be good to go with cut and polish. If by any chance you cut back a little too hard and go back to the primer below (and this can happen) especially when using spray can paints (I know from past experience), all you would need to do is re-mask as necessary and give the area another coat or two and do the same thing in cutting back.
It is quite probable you already know about this sort of stuff but thought it might be helpful to someone. Now I guess for the other side b piller repair or have you already got this completed. Its nice when you can do you own repairs rather than having to pay others to do it for you.
Thanks David, both pillars are (finally) complete. Now some clean up required in the vent plenum/firewall before a soaking with rustproofer, and reassembly, I was lucky enough to get a good surface finish out of the can. It's always a risk.....wet enough so the droplets 'flash' to give a glossy finish with minimal orange-peel, not so wet that it runs (refer to prior post about leaving well enough alone...). It was a risk though, given the horizontal and vertical surfaces.
Shouldn't need more than polish to get a decent finish, and the rest of the paint isn't 100% so I don't want to make the new part too obvious ;)
Another hint for the budding spray painters is to save all those old worn pieces of 1200 wet-n-dry paper. When they are worn (and clean) they are perfect for final finishing of paintwork.