hello Alfa friends
this is my first post on this forum because I'm interested in purchasing a 156 jts selespeed (face-lift model). Now this is a short story:
the 156 in question is going for sale below the market value because the previous owner has blown the engine (55k on the clock) and the dealer selling it has reconditioned the engine - they had it at a higher price but because of no interest shown from the customers, they put the price right down.
I am going for a test drive in a few days and according to the dealer the car runs perfectly with no issues.
Now I want your opinion guys - would this be a high risk purchase? I've heard the horrific stories regarding the jts enigine's reliability (i doubt the timing belt has been done on this engine - but I would do that straight away anyway) How expenisive is the jts enigine to maintain - average cost of timing belt service?
Is the selespeed in these cars better that the ones in the older ts engines?
thank you
thanks for the quick reply TurboGTV, regarding the dealer they are not an official alfa dealer - they are just a general used car dealer for european cars (they also supply parts for the european vehicles).
Well after i take a test drive I will know more details about the car but I'm just affraid of what might have been the cause of the engine to blow up at such a low k's - is this an unfortunate trait of the jts engines even with the good maintenance? Are there any tell-tell signs of a crapy jts engine with a first drive?
Another thing I'm worried with is the selespeed's reliability - I know the actuator has been revised on the facelift models (2003 -) but how reliable is it now cause almost every older model selespeed has failed at some point - I can't seem to find any owner experiences with the new selespeeds.
Anything else i should pay attention to?
thanks
Ok guys I have taken the Alfa for a half an hour test drive today.
There seem to be no obvious mechanical issues with the car as the engine was pulling strongly (and it was a hot day with the aircon on).
The selespeed gearbox takes some time getting used to and is best when used in the 'manual' mode. The 'city' mode is a bit of a shocker -the gearbox is desperately trying to find the right gear for the right situation but most of the time it seems to decide on the wrong gear, jerking alot between lower and higher gears (its not your regular, smooth auto, thats for sure).
But I can get used to it in the manual mode (I still have doubts about its long term reliability so it would be great if somebody can share some owner experiences with these new, revised selespeeds).
The salesman told me that the cause of the engine blowing was a timing belt failure (you were right 'TurboGTV'), which they replaced and fully reconditioned the engine. They also give 3 months warranty.
Now there is one thing that kind of bothered me - when I first started the engine I popped the bonnet open to have a look at it and see how it works and there was a bit of a knocking/rattle noise coming from the engine (like a diesel but with the volume turned down).
As the engine wormed up, the noise almost disappeared but it was still notisable if you put the ear close to the engine - is this common for a JTS engine or could it be a sign of more trouble ahead?
The selespeed bothers me a little. My 156 is manual and I'm not a fan of selespeed, but I have driven a number as loan cars. I don't like selespeed because my brain doersn't work that way, not because of any deficiency in the system. I have never had a car hunt for gears in city mode. The change can be abrupt, but I have never experienced one hunting for the correct gear. I'm also a little suspicious about a CAM belt going at 55k. The replacement interval is 60k and manufacturers generally place a large safety factor on this. If it legitimately broke early - why didn't alfa replace it under warranty? All the service guys that advertise with the club are good guys, I'd be taking it to the closest one for a check.
There is a ticking noise than can occur as a result of some part of the engine breather system doing something. There is an Alfa Service bulletin on the issue.
Doug Gould
Forgot mine had the 5 year Alfa warranty they did as a promo. The point still remains that driven nicely the belt should last 100,000km or more. There are plenty of old Alfa's doing just fine with time expired belts. My GTV6 would be one of them. So what was the previous owners driving style / maintenance regime? If the previous owner hurt the engine - what other bits are also in pain? Note that Australian trade practices law does not recognise time limits. Basically, as far as the law is concerned a fault is a fault is a fault.
Doug
Not changing the timimg belt on a 156 every 60,000 is just like playing russian roulette. You are deferring maintaince that has to be done (cost of changing belt $800 to $1,000). But risking a $5,000 to $10,000 engine repair bill. I know from personal experience. Belt broke on my 156 about 5 years ago. I had opted to wait 80,000 as per the book . It broke in the carpark at work starting the engine (bent all the exhaust valves, $3,500 repair bill). Imagine what you can break & damage if it lets go at freeway speeds.
Couldn't agree with Paul any more emphatically - belts must be changed every 60k - the risk isn't worth it. Did one on mine at 60k - same - bent valves - the lot. Don't risk it. This is a well know issue and there are meny examples of it happening.
thanks for your advice guys
now I'm stil interested in purchasing of this car but as some of you have advised me, the best course of action would be to bring an alfa specialist with me next time I have a look at the car.
This way he can give me his opinion regarding the mechanical state of the car, especialy the engine.
The issue is how do I bring the specialist with me - I live in Sydney (Liverpool area) and there aren't that many (if any) specialised alfa repairers here. The best option would be to take the car to the closest official Alfa dealer for the full check up, but ofcourse I would have to own the car first before I could bring it there (you leave the car for a whole working day for inspection - $150) and they can't leave the alfa premises even if you pay them.
I dont personaly know any alfa mechanics and I don't wanna bring some general Joe Blow mechanic who probably never worked on the jts engine in his life. Do you have any recommendations?
QuoteThe issue is how do I bring the specialist with me - I live in Sydney (Liverpool area) and there aren't that many (if any) specialised alfa repairers here. The best option would be to take the car to the closest official Alfa dealer for the full check up, but ofcourse I would have to own the car first before I could bring it there (you leave the car for a whole working day for inspection - $150) and they can't leave the alfa premises even if you pay them.
If the selling dealer won't drop the car down to a specialist of your choice, or permit you to take it there yourself, then its time to walk away.
Following your advice TurboGTV, I have asked the salesman to book the car for the full check up at Alfa dealer.
He agreed to it and the car is booked for this Friday after which they will give me a full report on the car and recommendations of what needs to be fixed.
Now this is where it gets a bit complicated - I told salesman that in case anything needs to be urgently fixed, the cost of that repair should be taken off the price of the car (I would leave the car at the alfa dealership so they can fix it).
He suggested that the price stays the same but anything that needs fixing will be fixed by them (their company is part used car lot, part repair shop for european vehicles) cause the costs from official alfa dealership are usually very high.
He also offered a full one year warranty on engine, gearbox and electrics. Is this a good deal?
My advice...thereares plenty other low kilometre Alfa 156's on th market so save yourself the hassle and the concern. Look out for a genuine low kilometre vehicle with full service history and embrace the peace of mind.
Well guys, the alfa dealer has finished the inspection of the car yesterday. There were no major mechanical issues with the car.
These are all of the issues found in the report:
-front and back brake pads worn out (need replacing)
-front and back tyres worn out (need replacing)
-windscreen wiper worn out (needs replacing)
-engine knocking noise present, probably caused by tensioner/variator (not critical)
-some oil deposit underneath the gearbox cover (not critical)
-gearknob loose (needs tightening)
-power windows on both back doors not operating (switch failure)
-some minor body paint scratches
I have decided to put the deposit on the car after the seller has promised to fix all of the things outlined in the report (new tyres, pads, variator, etc) and also give me a one year warranty on the car.
Now Anth73, I agree with you that when chosing the used car the best thing to do is to buy the one thats in the best condition with the lowest kays and full service records. But there is always the issue of price.
I have managed to negotiate down the price of the alfa to $14,000 (remember, this is a 2003, new design 156 JTS selespeed with only 55k) and although this car is far from perfect condition, I stil think its a good value for the money. When I was in the alfa dealership they had this same model for sale in their used car lot (2003 JTS, manual with 45k in perfect condition) and the price? -$24,999.
I always loved the newly designed 156's and with my limited budget, this was the best way of getting it, and I know this was probably a purchase made by the heart and not the brain but aren't all alfa purchases like that :)
The only thing that I was a bit dissapointed with is that my car does not have the original alloys that came with the newly designed 156's (you know, the pretty ones with alot of small spokes) as the owner put on the 16" (telephone dial style) from the older series TS.
I'm picking the car up on wednesday so I'll keep you guys posted.
Yeah TurboGTV, the car seems to be mechanicaly OK as none of those are major problems. I think that I will probably change the timing belt next at 100k just to be on the safe side.
Now before I pick up the car, I wanna ask I few questions:
1) What motor oil should I use for the JTS engine? I've heard that alfa recommends using Selenia 10-60W but can I use any other 10-60W oil?
2) What are the actual servicing (oil and filters change) intervals for the JTS? Is it every 5k or 10k? Can the filters be found in the regular car-parts place?
3) Does the JTS engine run on premium unleaded only or is suitable for regular unleaded too?
thanks
Well guys, I have picked up the Alfa on wednesday so now I am a proud owner of a Alfa Romeo 156 JTS.
I didn't drive her alot in these couple of days as I was busy at work (I go to work by train) but every time I sit inside alfa and drive her to the shops I have a smile on my face ;D. Theres just something about alfas that makes you feel good even if you are just looking at it.
Thanks to everyone that give me advice, especialy you 'TurboGTV' - you helped me alot man.
Backing up a couple of posts.
1. Alfa changed the oil spec for to 156 a couple of years ago to the heavier 10W-60 to reduce oil consumption. Alfa recommend the fully synthetic Selena. I'd be very tempted to stick with a fully synthetic oil. I think Castrol & Pennzoil do this. I'm not sure that Mobil 1 goes this heavy. Fuchs might have it too. When in doubt check the manual. Almost certainly Alfa will allow a wider range. The important thing is the API rating (something like SM - I think its up to SM or SP). Its shown after the viscosity rating. It specifies the standard of the additive pack that is mixed with the base oil. The cheaper brands generally have additive packs that are 1 or 2 levels behind.
2. The manual says 20k intervals. I do 10k (which Alfa suggest). The golden rule is the more frequent the better. My wife's new Brera has a 30k interval! We'll do 15k for it which once again Alfa suggests.
3. My hobbyhorse; stick to 98 octane Shell, Mobil or BP. These are the only 3 that are refined in Australia. Anything else is bought from one of these 3 or on the spot market (usually from Singapore). Some older service station still have old cast iron tanks which may let in contaminants. I try and stick to the high volume sites that have the new fibreglass tanks. Direct injection engines (ie JTS) are fussy about fuel quality.
Doug
Thanks for the advice Doug.
I didn't know that service intervals are so spread out for a car that seems so fussy about proper maintenance (20k? - thats way too long, I think I'll just stick to service intervals between 5k and 10k, atleast for oil).
I have currently filled the car with 95 RON fuel from BP, but I think I'll change it to 98 with my next fill as everybody is suggesting it as the best fuel for JTS engine.
How do you guys go about getting those wear and tear parts (brake pads, filters, etc) for your 156's? Do you order them from alfa dealers or do bigger car-parts companies still supply them?
I've been driving my alfa alot more over the weekend and I just love the way it drives and the looks it gets from people - it looks like a way more expensive car than it is. Everyone thought I spent at least 30 grand plus on the car (poor alfas do depreciate fast)
My 156 is my daily drive. Its been serviced exclusively by Lance Dixon. I just don't want to have any pressure about working on the daily driver. And frankly, Lance Dixon is cheap enough not to be worth making much effort to do otherwise. I do less than 20,000km per annum (its 6 years old - done about 95,000km) so its not much more than 1 service a year and mostly they seem to be a couple of hundred bucks. If I were doing it myself, I would expect that you'll find a Ryco Oil Filter. My next option would be to try Turin Imports in Adelaide for fuel filters, etc. There are others just as good, I just like Turin. I'd be looking for a friendly brake place and depending on your bent, be putting in something like Ferodo DS2500, although I have no complaints about the OE pads. Maybe even RB74 from Race Brakes. Beyond that you'll be at a dealer. For most marques the days of inflated parts prices are gone. We buy oil filters at trade price at the dealer for a (Japanese) work car that are cheaper than you might pay at Autobarn, etc. We even buy brake fluid & engine oil from the dealer! I wouldn't be scared of the dealers at all.
Personally, I'd leave the filter in place and change the oil as often as you have the energy, then get someone to do the 20k services. Note that oil filters work better as they start to pick up grunge which reduces the pore size of the filter paper. Changing them frequently does not do you any favours. The best advice would be to pick someone smart that is near you and that you get on with, to work on it / advise you. I have one guy near me that works on some of my other Alfa's, but I'm not going to name him because all the guys I've met who advertise with the club are impressive. Pick one & call in for a chat.
Doug
Thanks again for the reply Doug.
Now I've been driving alfa more in the last few days and tonight I've notised a bit of an issue with the selespeed. When up shifting from third to fourth there is noise -"krr" (like the sound of clutch when u misshift in a manual car, just slightly quieter and shorter), this also happens (less pronounced) when downshifting from fifth to fourth; all of the other shifts are smooth and quiet. The car stil accelerates normaly in 4th gear, its just that the noise is present when shifting from 3-4 and 5-4.
What might be causing it? Clutch, actuator or something else?
I have taken the car to the Alfa dealership today for the inspection of the gearbox. The cause of the sound is the synchro on the 4th gear which seems to be worn.
They did the recalibration of the selespeed which has made the sound almost dissapear, but its stil noticable if you put the ear to it.
They told me that there should be no issues with the gearbox if I continue driving it, its just up to me if I want to get rid of the noise by replacing the synchro. The cost of replacing the synchro is between $1200 and $1500 because the gearbox needs to be pulled apart. I think I will wait for a while before I decide on fixing it.
I dont wanna take it to the car dealer where I bought it, as they would probably leave it there for a few weeks before they start fixing it and I don't trust them with the big job like this - its not worth it.
hello guys, just doing a quick update as its been a month since my car purchase.
Firstly an interesting situation that happend to me a couple weeks ago while driving an alfa.
I set off from the lights towards this slight uphill section of the road and i notice a highway patrol car behind me.
As I'm slowly cruising I realise I'm starting to lose power and stepping on the accelerator doesn't do anything - so i try downchanging but nothing helps and the car is coming to a stop in the 70 zone and the copper is still behind me probably thinking- wtf is this guy doing? I stop in the left lane and the engine just stops - the policeman pulls up next to me and asks what happened; I replied "i dont know, i think that engine or gearbox died" to which hes says: "well thats what you get when you buy an alfa, good luck" and then he speeds off.
'Motherf....r' I think to myself, and than it hits me that I've been driving with the fuel light on for the last couple of days. Luckily the petrol station was a short distance away, so there was I on a busy road in the middle of the day filling petrol from a canister (it cost me $26.50) into my alfa. I turn the key and the engine starts. What bugged me is that the fuel gauge never dropped below the 'empty' line when I was driving it - but I've learned my lesson now, when the light goes on - fill up as soon as you can.
I have also been fiddling with the ASR (anti-slip regulation) button next to the gear knob, which is basicaly a traction control. I've noticed that when its tured off the engine becomes far more responsive and lively and when you turn it back on it feels like you took 20kw from the engine.
Is that the way it should work normaly cause by reading about how it works, the ASR should only come into action when the ECU senses loss of traction, otherwise it shouldn't intervene with the engine. But to me it feels like it does even when driving normaly, so every time I wanna give it a bit of a squirt I turn ASR off.
When to comes to selespeed, I have learned to enjoy it as it's a good compromise between having a manual car and the car you can easily drive in traffic. There are two things that annoy me abit, firstly: the slow clutch take up from start - It seems that you can't lauch selespeed fast off the line as you are always 'outlaunched' by all the corollas and camrys next to you lol; secondly the change from first to second always seems to be slow but almost never smooth no matter what revs/throttle position you use even when its in sports mode (over 5k revs and full throtle) you still whish it had a faster change.
All in all I'm satisfied with my alfa is it always make me grin every time I drive it, and I always have to turn back to have a look at it when i park it- a real looker ;)
The asr may not be traction control but snow/ice driving mode which will do what you described - my 90's BM had it.
More updates guys.
THERMOSTAT
I have just replaced thermostat on my 156 JTS in the alfa dealership.
Ever since i purchased my car I have noticed that my engine temperature goes down a lot when cruising with no traffic - we are talking 55 -60C on a cool night, cruising on a motorway (optimal temperature should be 85-90C). At first I didn't think much of it, but then I did a bit of a research and came to conclusion that 'stuck open thermostat' is a common issue with all alfa 156's. Now that I've replaced it, the temperature sits at 90C no matter what the driving style is.
The engine now feels more responsive, and apparently a cold running engine uses more fuel, so I should see an improvement there as well.
MOTOR FAILURE WARNING
In this month of ownership I also had a bit of an issue with a 'motor failure' warning that came up on the computer screen a few times in random situations. The warning would disappear after a few seconds and the engine would stil run normaly. I have researched this as well and it turns out that this is also a common fault that is caused by a bad conection/wiring at the main computer. So today at the alfa dealership I asked a mechanic to have a look at it.
On alfa 156 JTS the main computer is located all the way on the right side of the bonnet, under black plastic cover next to the selespeed fluid. When you unscrew the plastic cover (simple two screws) you will see a small black box with a bunch of wires going in to it from one side and a bunch of wires going out of it from the other side. The wires are connected to the computer with a plastic clip (yellowish colour) and usualy the main problem is that this clips get loose over time causing bad connections (thus sending bad signals to the computer - motor failure warning).
There can also be a bit of rust/dirt at this spot which needs to be cleaned and the clips need to be tightened. In my case, the mechanic discovered that one of the clips was actualy missing, making the connection to computer very loose. He replaced to clip and cleaned the spot from the dirt. Hopefuly this will sort out some of those warning issues.
PRICES OF SERVICING ALFA 156 AT DEALERSHIP
I have collected a few different prices for repairing and servicing alfa 156 JTS at my alfa dealership, so will put them up for your future reference.
REPLACING THERMOSTAT (inc labour) -$450 (thermostat cost alone -with housing - $240)
CAMBELT CHANGE (inc labour) -$860
FRONT BRAKE PADS (inc labour) - $350
REAR BRAKE PADS (inc labour) - $450
ENGINE SERVICE (replacing oil and filters, calibrating selespeed) - $330
REPLACING WORN SYNCHRO ON SELESPEED (inc labour) - $1400
AIR FLOW SENSOR - $990
GENERAL CAR CHECK-UP AND PROBLEM DIAGNOSIS - $150
Hi all
All the postings make some very interesting reading indeed for me, since I too was on the hunt for a "modern" Alfa, to give the poor old 1750 GTV a bit of a rest until I can properly restore her. Having traulled all the various websites for some time I settled on a couple of manual sportwagons in Sydney, one ended up being sold (was too slow) but I managed to buy the other one. This was back in mid November last year. So what did I get for $20K, a 1 owner from new, full Alfa servic history, metallic light blue, black leather, wagon with 89k on the clock. It has the Bose hi fi upgrade which is superb. Am I impressed with the car. Absolutely. Nothing so far has gone wrong with it. Touch metal!! My wife and I drove it home to Hobart over a two week period, and with the back seat down the storage space is impressive.
Now, before I bought it I talked with my mechanic who runs an Italian specialist car workshop (note not Alfa dealership) and he seriously advised me that the most important things to consider were, buy the best I could afford, not a selespeed, with as low kms, service history and crucially to make sure the belts had been changed. All of this in my case was done.
On the question of the Alfa dealer vrs independant, here in Tassie we don't have the same options as you do on the mainland and from a cost perspective the Alfa Dealer is also the local Porsche and Mercedes dealer, etc etc. Their hourly rate is expensive compared to other workshops. I guess it comes down to who you may trust and/or can afford.
So far I have done about 6K and have had no costs apart from fuel, and getting the car re-registered in Tas. However, thanks to all of you who have posted details on range of costs etc as it is good to know what I may be in for. Mind you the car is so fuel efficient, so that too is brilliant.
Believe me, given the stories re not replacing the belts and consequences is well understood. Mind you with the Fiat twin cam you have to do this every 30,000km. I remember what happened to my mum's 132 when we delayed doing this. Ouch.
Cheers Dave
Cant stress the importance of the timing belt change enough as lots of others already have.....
My 147 had its timing belt changed at only 34000 km only because it was 3 years old at the time
and back then Alfa had changed it policy stressing that the belt be changed at 60000 kays OR 3 years.
No pointing in delaying it when it needs to be done anyway, coz if that goes its all over literally
Dave - my old Fiat 131 Superbrava slipped the belt one notch once due to excessive pre-ignition (I was lucky!) belt was less than 6 months old didnt ask any questions changed it again
Rather buy just a belt/tensioners, than add valves, pitsons, head or worse (+ labour) to your shopping list
Hey Pep105, spot on mate.
Preventative maintenance far better for the bank balance than leaving it too late. I seem to recall in mind of that changing the belt on my Fiat Twin Cams (124 sport, 125 etc) every 25,000. The cost for the belt back then $30-40 plus labour = cheap vrs an engine rebuild $2-3K (1990's costs).
The other thing I forgot to mention about the JTS motor from what I have been told is that it is absolutely critical to make sure that the oil level is kept topped up. Can do all sorts of damage to the variable valve timing gear if it gets low. My engine feels and sounds extremely healthy, no tapping noises or anything just silky smooth and revs cleanly. The way it should be. Cheers Dave