Hey all, it's been some time since I've been on the forum. There have been times lately where I would definitely like a little more power in the engine, and a couple of mates have upgraded to 3.0 12v and 3.0 24v engines, and won't shut up about it! Sounds great.
Basically my car is standard with the exception of upgraded suspension (thicker torsion bar, yellow konis). As such, I've been very content to leave it standard, I quite like it that way. In part, I'd like to do something to the motor to get more out of it, on the other hand, perhaps i should be maintaining the car as original as possible?!?! Anyway, i guess that's for me to decide.
So, how practical are the following options, and does anyone have an idea of cost?
- 2.5L, different cams
- 2.5L, extractors
- 3.0L 12v
- Any other ideas?
I've left out the 24v 3.0L for now since i know it's quite expensive, particularly a new computer. I'm also under the impression modding the 2.5L will really only benefit higher rpm - is this correct?
I think a major question is - should i get to work on the 2.5L 12v, or get the 3.0 12v and then improve that? Also this is predominantly my road car, with minimal track use at the moment.
for best power and value for money:
http://www.hiperformancestore.com/superchargerkit.htm
;D
get the 2.5 chipped my one is auto delta chiped and have had it up to 250kph but if you call monza they can tell you who to use to chip it i think they are called powerchip good performance for less money
a nice long straight road in central vic no cops for days i may have had a tuned exhaust under it to, but not sure if i had removed it due to epa regs was at 110db's a little to loud for todays standards
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 05:01:55 PM
get the 2.5 chipped my one is auto delta chiped and have had it up to 250kph but if you call monza they can tell you who to use to chip it i think they are called powerchip good performance for less money
250 km/h. From a chip and an exhaust. ::) ::)
Sir Lancelot, the 2.5 is a lovely engine, and sounds better than the 3.0. I wouldn't bother spending too much money on it though, when you can get a 3 litre for around $1000.
But if you did want to keep the 2.5, maybe go for a set of Vin's extractors, they're an extra 9bhp, then you could play with a bigger AFM, like the BMW mod which is pretty common. Maybe 20bhp all up there, and around $1200 and lots of time.
A 3 litre (12v) should be an extra 30 bhp, as well as loads more torque, and can be made to look exactly the same as your 2.5, so at least keeping the appearance original. Then you can do the same mods as above, for another 20bhp or so.
50bhp is nice, but you'd still be about 50bhp behind dehne and his amazing chipped 90 which can do 250km/h.
Quote250 km/h. From a chip and an exhaust
Sheldon , You forgot the 25 Y.O wildly optimistic Alfa speedo
All entrants must arrive by 8:30 AM to check in and prepare their cars. Scrutineering of cars in will take place between 8:45 AM and 9:30 AM.
| 8:30 | ENTRANT SIGN IN – DOCUMENT CHECK |
| 9:30 | OFFICIALS BRIEFING & DRIVERS BRIEFING (Attendance is compulsory) |
| 10:00 | MIN 4, 8 X TIMED TESTS CONDUCTED. |
| 16:30 | VENUE VACATED |
Hope you can fit this into your day.
Hey Brad,
That's a bit rude to hijack this thread!!!!!!!
Neil
I actually suspect he was just a little lost !! ;D unless he has an ulterior motive, which isn't quite obvious.
Gully I can well imagine you are dead right there re the 25 yo over optimistic alfa speedo, that is unless the blue stripe and bright yellow paint can account for some extra gee gees ;D
other than its a black stripe, and its not that car either please do remember that a standard 90 is good for 220-230 anyway a little mod is only gaining 20 more kpm so its not that disbelievable that this can happen and my speedo is only 4km out as have tested at 60,80,100,and 120 and its consistant
Quote from: Brad Marshall on August 15, 2010, 07:58:17 PM
All entrants must arrive by 8:30 AM ... Hope you can fit this into your day.
I was wondering where that went :)
Quote from: Davidm1750 on August 15, 2010, 08:26:32 PM
I actually suspect he was just a little lost !!
Yeah I was
Quote from: Davidm1750 on August 15, 2010, 08:26:32 PM
Gully I can well imagine you are dead right there re the 25 yo over optimistic alfa speedo
Accuracy didn't get better in the next 20 years ... my 147 says nearly 110, yet the Tom Tom says 100.
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 08:34:25 PM
please do remember that a standard 90 is good for 220-230 anyway
No it isn't. Please show us your evidence for this. All the tests I've seen say that just over 200km/h is top speed, 205km/h being the highest I've ever seen quoted. And I've published most of these in the Cross & Serpent.
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 08:34:25 PM
a little mod is only gaining 20 more kpm
Assuming your 230 km/h was correct, it would take a lot of horsepower to go from 230 to 250 km/h, not just a 'little mod'. To go from 205km/h to 250km/h would take at least 100bhp at a guess.
But, prove to me that a standard 90 can do 230km/h and I may be more inclined to believe the rest of your claims.
Interestingly (which is a bit off topic),
A 156 GTA has a reported top speed of 241km/h and that's a tad under 250 bhp.
An Alfa 90 has 154 bhp and top speed of 203 km/h.
An Alfetta GTV 2L has 122 bhp and a reported top speed of 190 km/h. Pretty tough to see 190 km/h, try as I may, most is about 180 km/h in good conditions.
So 100 odd bhp needed to get 50 km/h more on a comparative basis.
So to get more towards top speed, it almost becomes inversely proportional with power ie a few km/h more requires a huge amount more power.
This is not taking into account weight, of course.
Make sense and true or have I over-analysed.
For everyday use it's not absolute power you're wanting but mid-range power and torque. For that a set of Vin's extractors will help, you'll get an even crisper exhaust note and they can be moved to a 12v 3.0 later on with the same benefits.
Something else worth considering is opening up the intake runners and cleaning up the bottom of the plenum. In the early days of V6's one of our well known club members did that with excellent results. Likewise if you are fitting extractors take the time to make sure that it is bolted up clean and the ports are well matched.
The extra engine power is needed to cut through the wall of air in front of the car, the faster you go the
the harder it gets, so you need more and more power as the speed increases just to cut through
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 05:01:55 PM
get the 2.5 chipped my one is auto delta chiped and have had it up to 250kph but if you call monza they can tell you who to use to chip it i think they are called powerchip good performance for less money
ROFL! You had an old analogue ECU 'chipped' 'ey? You must be the 1st person in the world to do that considering they don't have 'chips'.
Decent power and drivability would come from fitting and properly tuning a good quality aftermarket computer. That would let you get rid of the little air flow meter and tune for best performance both the fuel and ignition timing. This will also accommodate later modifications.
Porting the heads http://www.oldtunnel.com/ and a well made set of extractors would also help.
Quote from: Sportiva on August 16, 2010, 02:33:16 PM
The extra engine power is needed to cut through the wall of air in front of the car, the faster you go the
the harder it gets, so you need more and more power as the speed increases just to cut through
In 1955 Jaguar produced a racing car that needed just 32hp to do 100mph (160km/hr). Of course the car made plenty more hp than that (270hp) it does show the massive effect of aerodynamic drag. http://autospeed.com.au/cms/A_111684/article.html
the guy who i brought it of worked for auto delta once and had chipped/remapped and powerchip CAN do these to
Quotethe guy who i brought it of worked for auto delta once and had chipped/remapped and powerchip CAN do these to
http://www.powerchipgroup.com/interact/datasheets/datasheets_two.asp?pid=Alf0005
Back on topic....
Alex, 3.0L's are GROUSE! I think i have mentioned this before but after having one for over a year now, I still get a kick out of it and for the road it doesn't feel like i need more power. It has a great mix of low/mid range torque and rev's out much nicer than my old 2.5L. Also after a AFM tune it's quite fuel efficient - around 12-14L per 100km depending on driving style and conditions.
If you are concerned about originality, the only way of really noticing a 3.0L is the cam covers. The conversion on mine was done using the old 2.5L's plenum, water pump, sump, intake and so on...I kept the nicer looking cam covers with the script Alfa Romeo logo on them... but you can always put the 2.5L on and no one will ever know!
Considering the condition of your GTV6, i think this will make it even more desirable!
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 15, 2010, 09:10:13 PM
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 08:34:25 PM
please do remember that a standard 90 is good for 220-230 anyway
No it isn't. Please show us your evidence for this. All the tests I've seen say that just over 200km/h is top speed, 205km/h being the highest I've ever seen quoted. And I've published most of these in the Cross & Serpent.
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 08:34:25 PM
a little mod is only gaining 20 more kpm
Assuming your 230 km/h was correct, it would take a lot of horsepower to go from 230 to 250 km/h, not just a 'little mod'. To go from 205km/h to 250km/h would take at least 100bhp at a guess.
But, prove to me that a standard 90 can do 230km/h and I may be more inclined to believe the rest of your claims.
I think the 2.0 giulietta says it has a top speed of 180 but yet i got mine to 200 and i could have gone just a little bit more.
dehne do you have a dyno sheet/specs of you car ?
never had it done but i think i will just to show these people that it is possible and that they need to believe in the pure power that alfa has inside of it not just what some bloke writes on paper to get the regulators happy
No it isn't. Please show us your evidence for this. All the tests I've seen say that just over 200km/h is top speed, 205km/h being the highest I've ever seen quoted. And I've published most of these in the Cross & Serpent.
so your saying that iron sides is only good for 200, i pity you why would you bother racing it then seems like a waste when storms fully complete 2ltr giulie can do 200, dont see why alfa would have put 2 extra cylinders on and an extra 1/2 litre, i suppose they had money to burn or they thought we were all stupid and would buy it anyway
Quote from: dehne on August 16, 2010, 07:55:06 PM
No it isn't. Please show us your evidence for this. All the tests I've seen say that just over 200km/h is top speed, 205km/h being the highest I've ever seen quoted. And I've published most of these in the Cross & Serpent.
so your saying that iron sides is only good for 200, i pity you why would you bother racing it then seems like a waste when storms fully complete 2ltr giulie can do 200, dont see why alfa would have put 2 extra cylinders on and an extra 1/2 litre, i suppose they had money to burn or they thought we were all stupid and would buy it anyway
this was a long time ago im sure it said 180 mabye even 200. But the 2.0 done 200 easy. should get 250 once turbo is on.
Who are you pitying ? who is racing what ?
sorry it was meant to quote sheldon and his 90, im happy it means that my 90 is way quicker than his
Those are fighting words!!!!!!
Bloody Hilarious.
This is fantastic! Didn't have a chance to look back on my topic until now, 2 pages! Although it did seem to digress, did I dig up something I shouldn't have here? Haha, please don't let me stop you, happy to have two threads here :)
OK I'm thoroughly confused, and am loving the suggestions. I'm attached to my 2.5L, which is the only reason I'm not jumping at a 3.0L. Simmo – you may have to take me for a drive to convince me! We never did go for that cruise!
Quote from: paul edwards on August 15, 2010, 02:09:48 PMHi
What gear box are you running? lf it's a standard gear box, l would start their especially if it original. lt's probably due for a synchro ring or two any way. It sounds like the 2.5 is in good condition so l wouldn't go pulling it down or swapping just yet. A well set up close ratio box really improves the sporty feel and punch of engine. When l did this to my standard 1984 GTV2lt. Alfetta it was unbelievable better to drive and lots more fun as well.
Cheers Paul
The 2.5 is in very good condition I believe, I never considered this, might talk to my regular mechanic and get some ideas of what exactly that will do for the GTV6. It sounds like what I might be after, thanks! Although the car is already cruising at 3000rpm at 100kph, so would a mod like this push that higher? Or assuming you don't mess with the higher gears, it may not?
Quote from: BradGTV on August 15, 2010, 04:40:15 PM
for best power and value for money:
http://www.hiperformancestore.com/superchargerkit.htm
;D
Don't think I didn't think about it! That page has been bookmarked for years :P
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 05:01:55 PM
get the 2.5 chipped my one is auto delta chiped and have had it up to 250kph but if you call monza they can tell you who to use to chip it i think they are called powerchip good performance for less money
So what exactly does the chip-mod affect? Is it timing or the AFM or something? (is the AFM mechanical?)
Sheldon, you're absolutely right – I love the exhaust note I have right now, which is why I'm hesitant to change anything! Extractors have always been on my mind, when you say "a lot of time" do you mean it's not straight forward to change of the AFM and extractors?
Quote from: aggie57 on August 16, 2010, 07:57:34 AM
For everyday use it's not absolute power you're wanting but mid-range power and torque. For that a set of Vin's extractors will help, you'll get an even crisper exhaust note and they can be moved to a 12v 3.0 later on with the same benefits.
Something else worth considering is opening up the intake runners and cleaning up the bottom of the plenum. In the early days of V6's one of our well known club members did that with excellent results. Likewise if you are fitting extractors take the time to make sure that it is bolted up clean and the ports are well matched.
The extractors are sounding like an obvious option for any upgrade – Vin is at Pace engineering? You'll have to forgive me, still learning, didn't understand the second part... "opening up the intake runners and cleaning up the bottom of the plenum"
How serious a mod is porting, what are the issues associated with it and what else needs to accompany it?
Thanks guys, I'll look into these ideas further and figure out what is suitable for me :)
has anyone seen the alfa 75 3.0 0-200kmph on you tube ? ;D
i know what the intake runners on a ca18 is where for each air inlet port splits into two ports just before the valves and one port is clear to the valve and the other is controled by a butterfly if any of that makes sence.
Im having trouble getting pics.
Quote from: dehne on August 16, 2010, 07:55:06 PM
so your saying that iron sides is only good for 200, i pity you why would you bother racing it then seems like a waste when storms fully complete 2ltr giulie can do 200, dont see why alfa would have put 2 extra cylinders on and an extra 1/2 litre, i suppose they had money to burn or they thought we were all stupid and would buy it anyway
Racing isn't just about top speed... you of all people should know this. you drive an Alfa - never the fastest in a straight line. Plus it's not 'racing', it's sprint meets, its about learning your own and your cars abilities and having a great time doing it. Who cares if one car can go 250+. And what race track has a long enough straight to let it wind out? Phillip island maybe but you would need 300+ horsepower and be able to come out of the last corner at 200!
Also doesn't it depend on your gearbox and diff to determine your top speed? Any engine can rev to 6,000rpm, 50 HP or 550Hp. If they have the same gearbox one will just get there quicker. (correct me if i am wrong)
Quote from: Sir Lancelot on August 16, 2010, 08:37:17 PM
Sheldon, you're absolutely right – I love the exhaust note I have right now, which is why I'm hesitant to change anything! Extractors have always been on my mind, when you say "a lot of time" do you mean it's not straight forward to change of the AFM and extractors?
Just a bit fiddly and time-consuming really. Anything to do with the exhaust takes a while in my experience. Then again I'm a shit mechanic.
From what research I've done over the years I think it takes a lot of work to get decent power out of a 2.5. Can be done, but if you're going to that much trouble, why not just do the same things to a 3.0? (Is what most people conclude anyway - if you haven't yet, have a listen to Claude Botti's GTV6 racecar, it's got a Group A 2.5 - sounds amazing, and it will persuade you to keep the 2.5)
You could always go the megasquirt(or similar) route, again a bit of time setting it up, but well worth it, and probably my next (and first) major engine mod. It's an Alfa, it's more fun to modify the brakes and suspension anyway.
Quote from: dehne on August 16, 2010, 07:55:06 PM
so your saying that iron sides is only good for 200, i pity you why would you bother racing it then seems like a waste when storms fully complete 2ltr giulie can do 200, dont see why alfa would have put 2 extra cylinders on and an extra 1/2 litre, i suppose they had money to burn or they thought we were all stupid and would buy it anyway
Yep, and I'd be surprised (and a proud parent) if ol' Ironsides had got to 200 downhill actually. It was a good engine, but a bit tired and smokey. Thank you for your pity. I bother sprinting it because it's a fun car to drive and I love driving as fast as I can on a track. A track with corners. If I was worried about (only) straight-line speed I would have bought a V8 and gone drag-racing. I think I've seen 190 on the speedo at Phillip Island, about 2 seconds before my brake marker, so maybe 195 indicated (with an analogue speedo and 16" wheels). According to the datalogger though the best there is 190.3. I'd believe a 200 top speed, but that would be about it.
I'd be surprised if Storm_X's 200 was anywhere near 200. Storm_X, I apologise if you measured that with an accurate device, and well done if you did. I'm not sure how accurate an 80s Alfa speedo is though. I've found that my standard 90 engine is a tiny bit quicker than pretty good slightly tuned 2 litre Alfas in a straight line, and about the same as a TS.
As for the "they thought we were all stupid and would buy it anyway". Well.
Quote from: dehne on August 16, 2010, 08:11:13 PM
sorry it was meant to quote sheldon and his 90, im happy it means that my 90 is way quicker than his
I'm glad that makes you happy. I'm looking forward to seeing this very quick 90. Why don't you bring it to our dyno day on the 28th? I'll even pay for your run.
i dont care about top speed i dont need to go to 200km anywhere on the road.
My car like not even 2-3kmph off from the tom tom gps and i have checked by driving next to fiends and cheking the speeds.
when i got it to 200 i was in 5th gear at about 4-5k revs i think?(was over a year ago)
Quote from: Storm_X on August 17, 2010, 07:51:36 PM
when i got it to 200 i was in 5th gear at about 4-5k revs i think?(was over a year ago)
Not on a standard gearbox and accurate tacho you weren't. 200k is about 6250 in 5th, unless you have a taller ratio gearbox, or are running muddies.
I go the my 75 up to 200 once....gotta love long straight roads when coming back from NSW
Quote from: Sir Lancelot on August 16, 2010, 08:37:17 PM
Quote from: dehne on August 15, 2010, 05:01:55 PM
get the 2.5 chipped my one is auto delta chiped and have had it up to 250kph but if you call monza they can tell you who to use to chip it i think they are called powerchip good performance for less money
So what exactly does the chip-mod affect? Is it timing or the AFM or something? (is the AFM mechanical?)
It is not possible to chip the original 2.5 in a gtv6. It is an analogue L-Jet system by bosch. Best solution is to upgrade to electronic F/I with a megasquirt, you can then use the AFM-less intake on greg's excellent site. This will give u a modern mapable, plug and play, system that you can play around with and get some actual gains. The L-jet system is based on a flap type AFM that is basically connected to a potentiometer to measure air. A modern system works far better. The megasquirt for example uses a motorola MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure). It is restriction-less.
The original AFM is also costly and often goes bad.
The best part about this upgrade is you can go back to stock inside 1hr... That ought to be your first port of call, 2.5, 2.5 forced induction or 3.0.
If you want bang for buck, it's obvious.. 3.0 12v...
Modern 2.5 performance for minimal outlay, better fuel efficiency, reliability and tad more power, megasquirt....
maximum power out of either 2.5, or 3.0? greg's fantastic supercharger... again, he reckons you can go back to stock inside an 1hr or 2...
anything you do should be based on a modern ecu tho.... IMHO.
Quote from: Stephen Aarons on August 17, 2010, 08:38:57 PM
I go the my 75 up to 200 once....gotta love long straight roads when coming back from NSW
Gee Steve you were lucky to find someone with nice long "private" road, I mean as a responsible motorist you wouldn't have done 200 on a public road hey mate ;)
Quote from: Anthony Miller on August 18, 2010, 07:29:15 AM
Quote from: Stephen Aarons on August 17, 2010, 08:38:57 PM
I go the my 75 up to 200 once....gotta love long straight roads when coming back from NSW
Gee Steve you were lucky to find someone with nice long "private" road, I mean as a responsible motorist you wouldn't have done 200 on a public road hey mate ;)
haha of course ;)
stay in mexico.................uall.... varments.......... we dont take to u wetbacks speddeing up our rooaads
Quote from: Sportiva on August 18, 2010, 06:05:03 PM
stay in mexico.................uall.... varments.......... we dont take to u wetbacks speddeing up our rooaads
Well said.
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 17, 2010, 12:09:56 AM
I'm glad that makes you happy. I'm looking forward to seeing this very quick 90. Why don't you bring it to our dyno day on the 28th? I'll even pay for your run.
Just thought I'd quote this in case dehne missed it....
i would love to but ill have to see how work is, as it busy now
If you can't make it, maybe bring it down to Phillip Island in December, that's a good horsepower track. Jim's 155 couldn't even crack 230 in March http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=4366.msg23501#msg23501 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=4366.msg23501#msg23501) so you should beat him in a straight line too, since you can do 250.
Now come on Sheldon - I actually did a 232.2 ! though not on that video :)
I see Bugatti had to wring an extra 235hp/250nm out of the Veyron and improve its aerodynamics to raise its top speed by a whole 24km/h. They should have just slapped in a 'magic' 20hp Powerchip. The idiots.
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 19, 2010, 12:17:10 AM
If you can't make it, maybe bring it down to Phillip Island in December, that's a good horsepower track. Jim's 155 couldn't even crack 230 in March http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=4366.msg23501#msg23501 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=4366.msg23501#msg23501) so you should beat him in a straight line too, since you can do 250.
this is my ROAD car not race car will NOT be putting it on the track
I think this subject is going a little off the track and it seems everyone on to dehne.
Quote from: dehne on August 19, 2010, 07:50:53 PM
this is my ROAD car not race car will NOT be putting it on the track
Well that's alright, since you've claimed in the past that your racecar is quicker than the road one, so even better.
Quote from: ALFA156DALE on August 19, 2010, 08:04:53 PM
I think this subject is going a little off the track and it seems everyone on to dehne.
I think that if you're going to give people advice on a public forum then you can expect that advice to be questioned as to it's veracity. I also think it's highly irresponsible to post claims which are clearly misleading or mistaken, if not downright lies. If you can't provide one bit of evidence for your claims then you must expect that they won't be believed, and in fact may be mocked. If dehne provided evidence that a standard 90 will do 230km/h, that his 90 has been chipped, and that it gave it sufficient power to get to 250km/h I would be the first to humbly apologise for doubting his claims.
well have been doing a little research and have found the reason why my 90's are quicker, reason 1 is that they have the leaded engine and reason 2 is they have a better gearbox/ratio's i will post the tech info up when i upload to comp
they can think all they like, but we all know that you are ;)
I think Dehnes full of what all of us love about our alfas.................. PRIDE
I think pride is vastly more appealing than shit
Dehne If your speedo touched 250 ................ good on you.............. it was your moment and your belief
Do it again on a race track or controlled space and most of us will be more than happy for you
once i get my suspension fixed on the road 90 ill get it on the dyno and put the results up same goes for the race 90 to, not sure how the race will go with the lsd in with new gears will start a new topic for that one
I'm getting me one of these, seems like the most accurate way to measure horsepower. http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=41 (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=41)
top read this thread!
ALFA 90 Star Wars dash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjey182HrAQ
John
thanks for putting that up john looks to me like the 90 can do the 250
Good to have you back John G, keeping the bastards honest as usual I see... ;)
That video has been around for a long time. I actually had an email conversation with the chap that owned the car a few years ago. Here are the specifications that he could remember (just copied from his email, so no flaming me for any errors/inconsistencies please).....
Alfa 90QV, 164QV 3.0 engine transplant with following mods: DTA Fast engine managent, Velocity stacks, open throttle bodies, Tarox break discs, Sachs double disc racing clutch, cams ENEM, higher compression,racing exhaust, zagato exhaust manifold, forged pistons, engine balancement + reinforcement (rods ,pistons, etc), TS gearbox
adjusted camber, torsion sticks (27mm), bilstein gas dampers, springs, modified de dion axle...
And a pic of the engine that he sent me.
You left out the Power Chip equipped analogue L-Jetronic...... ;)
Hey Sheldon
Thanks it's good to be back!
I am just stirring the pot as usual ;)
That quick Dutch 90 is for sale atm.I sent the seller an email asking if he would consider selling the engine and gear box only.I am yet to recieve a reply. :(
John
Quote from: Choderboy on August 25, 2010, 07:12:38 PM
I couldn't find 250km/h on either of these.
Obviously it comes up on the digital bit, not the bar graph bit. Ya nong. But only if you have a chip. Alfa really should've chipped the 156GTA to get it over 250km/h. Bunch of morons.
Quote from: JOHN G on August 25, 2010, 07:25:56 PM
I am just stirring the pot as usual ;)
That quick Dutch 90 is for sale atm.I sent the seller an email asking if he would consider selling the engine and gear box only.I am yet to recieve a reply. :(
I knew exactly what you were doing. I'd considered posting exactly the same video myself, but wasn't sure certain people would understand the irony.
I'd be interested to see the information re: the sale of that 90. Feel free to PM or post here, whatever you feel comfortable with.
Yeah, I know. I think I need a sarcasm font.
Sarcasim font LOL.
That's the ;) wink emoticon
The link for the sale of the Dirty Dutch 90 is on alfabb.com somewhere ?
I cant find it,that search function on that site is useless.
John
Here's the link
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-cars-sale-wanted/23825-fs-killer-alfa-90qv-3-0-v6-heavily-modified.html
Cheers
Mark.
Ah ok, there's the problem. The posts that Parham put up were in 2006, so he probably wouldn't respond to any PMs on the BB. When I was speaking to him it was Feb 2007 and he'd already sold the 90 by then. He'd also had in the past a Suzuki SC100 with a big motorbike engine in it, something like a GSXR1000 or something, and at the time I was speaking to him he was driving a Pug 205 GTi 1.9 and a Gallardo. He raved about the 205...
Hi Sheldon
Thanks for the heads up.
Rush of blood moment did'nt read the first post date....
John
This thread is getting a little boring I reckon, but I could be convinced otherwise if anyone else wanted to contribute?
dehne, so you contend that....
-a standard 90 will do 230kph, even though every road test ever published of a 90 seems to agree on 195-205kph
-your car has been chipped, when every expert I've spoken to says that the 90 can not be chipped, including the organisation that you referenced on the first page
-your 'chipped' 90 will do 250kph
-you will not take your car to the track to prove a point, even though appararently it's perfectly fine to do '250kph' on a public road. Where kids/cats could be crossing. Dickhead.
-you will not dyno it because work commitments may not allow it, and then 4 days later it's because the suspension needs fixing, presumably because the massive power broke something?
dehne, just think about these facts for a few minutes. Actually think about them, don't just reply straight away.
The standard 90 has 156BHP. The standard 156 GTA has 247BHP
The standard 90 will do 205kph. The standard 156 GTA will do 250kph (if we believe the higher end of published road tests)
I don't have Cd figures on hand (but enough of a google search will find them I'm sure) but I'd be pretty sure that a 156 GTA would be slightly more slippery than a 90 (but maybe not to a huge degree considering it's much larger surface area and wider tyres).
So the only way a 90 is going to do 250 kph is if it has at least 250BHP surely? (I actually think it would be more like 280BHP, but lets start with that for now). Would you agree with this or not?
So which do you think is more likely?
-That your standard 2.5 with a 'chip' and an exhaust has more power than a 156 GTA
-Your mid-80s digital dash is not entirely accurate
i have been reading this forum for a while now just to see what it is like and i have come to the conclusion that there are to many idiots on here some of you guys are really knowledgeable and others are just plain arseholes, i do not know any of you personaly but you all need to stop being arrogant and hipacritical about this shit, i know that everyone has there own opinion of things and they sometimes need to be aired but to absolutly be completly negative to someone is downright bullshit, you all need to get a grip and start acting ur age and not your shoe size,
im sure oneday dehne will show you what his 90 can do
and good on him if it is that quick you guys just sound a little jelous
well i hope you all can stop the bullshit and let this forum become a little better looking to the new uses who come and dont think that u all are idiots, re the ausalfa site think
anyways thats all i hope to contribute more positivly in the future
Way to introduce yourself alfar156. To quote an earlier post from a long-standing member:
QuoteI think that if you're going to give people advice on a public forum then you can expect that advice to be questioned as to it's veracity. I also think it's highly irresponsible to post claims which are clearly misleading or mistaken, if not downright lies. If you can't provide one bit of evidence for your claims then you must expect that they won't be believed, and in fact may be mocked. If dehne provided evidence that a standard 90 will do 230km/h, that his 90 has been chipped, and that it gave it sufficient power to get to 250km/h I would be the first to humbly apologise for doubting his claims.
Sums this thread up for me, and I suspect many others.
Quoteanyways thats all i hope to contribute more positivly in the future
Really? That's a big goal.
BTW thanks for lending me your sarcastic font Sheldon, works great.
wow alfar156 way to say hi, i do see your point there anbout the users to, and yes one day i will show it and heres hoping it is still up to it to, but should not be to much of a prob though,
yes this thread has gone a long way off topic and i dont mind stiring the pot a little either, ive had a chat with a bloke in bendigo who has a dyno and im looking to put the road 90 and the race 90 on it to see exactly where they are at now, being it has been about 4 yrs since the 90 did those speeds but it has had a engine rebuild since then, will keep you posted in a new thread that is relevant to the 90, and shall stop hijacking this one
Quote from: L4OMEO on August 26, 2010, 09:21:49 AM
BTW thanks for lending me your sarcastic font Sheldon, works great.
Anytime bud, I'll need it back soon though.
Quote from: alfar156 on August 26, 2010, 12:45:28 AM
i have been reading this forum for a while now just to see what it is like and i have come to the conclusion that there are to many idiots on here some of you guys are really knowledgeable and others are just plain arseholes, i do not know any of you personaly but you all need to stop being arrogant and hipacritical about this shit, i know that everyone has there own opinion of things and they sometimes need to be aired but to absolutly be completly negative to someone is downright bullshit, you all need to get a grip and start acting ur age and not your shoe size,
im sure oneday dehne will show you what his 90 can do
and good on him if it is that quick you guys just sound a little jelous
well i hope you all can stop the bullshit and let this forum become a little better looking to the new uses who come and dont think that u all are idiots, re the ausalfa site think
anyways thats all i hope to contribute more positivly in the future
Wait a darn minute. No use of caps, no punctuation, appalling spelling and grammar, claiming that we're 'jelous' of dehne, no cap in your name......This is actually dehne isn't it?
Ironically alfar156, the very reason I have been requesting that dehne prove his claims is to protect new users. Personally, I spent a lot of time trawling forums when I first got my Alfa, they are a very valuable source of information, which is why I feel that any incorrect information should be pointed out, so that it is not spread any further. I made it easy for dehne too, all he had to do was prove that a standard 90 could do 230 km/h, as he claimed. There doesn't seem to be any action on this on his part, which is unusual considering the wealth of information available on the internet. I would have thought that this would be easier than proving that his particular car can do 250km/h (and also might have been a clue as to why he thinks his car is so fast - maybe, just maybe, his speedo is a little bit optimistic).
By the way, I think it's hilarious that you come on here, calling us arseholes (well, when I say us I assume you mean me. And maybe Chode...) and then proceed to post on another forum that we are dickheads, "dumbasres[sic] who know nothing", and that "i[sic] hope all there[sic] cars brake[sic] down and cannot get any parts to fix them at a reasonably[sic] price and gotta sell there[sic] left nut". Are you actually insane? Again it's hugely ironic that you post in a thread on their forum which is dedicated to calling us names, but yet WE'RE the ones who need to start acting our age. Fuck me. For those that haven't seen it, this is the link to the other forum...http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1582&start=15 (http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1582&start=15)
And alfar156's words saved for posterity....
hi there i agree re the vic club forum, there are a lot of richard heads on there who think they are high and almighty but are just dumbasres who know nothing, just wish you could slap them some times, but there are also some really good guys on there who seem to know a bit and get involved alot, i was thinking about joining the vic club until i was advised by one off the long time members not to because they were to expensive for what you get and socialy some of the committy were a bit daft, so i joined my local car club instead and still run at some of there advents just for the hell of getting on the track,
alfashop have read the apology you wrote on there and those guys are mad i hope all there cars brake down and cannot get any parts to fix them at a reasonably price and gotta sell there left nut
Quote from: L4OMEO on August 26, 2010, 09:21:49 AM
Way to introduce yourself alfar156.
Exactly.
Quote from: dehne on August 26, 2010, 12:22:03 PM
yes this thread has gone a long way off topic
No it hasn't, we're just (still) trying to ascertain whether your claims on the first page are true or not. Why don't you answer the questions
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 26, 2010, 12:06:58 AM
So the only way a 90 is going to do 250 kph is if it has at least 250BHP surely? (I actually think it would be more like 280BHP, but lets start with that for now). Would you agree with this or not?
So which do you think is more likely?
-That your standard 2.5 with a 'chip' and an exhaust has more power than a 156 GTA
-Your mid-80s digital dash is not entirely accurate
in my last post?
Sir Lancelot, it's been a while since we addressed your original question, what was it again? I'm in the process of putting a 3 litre in mine, just waiting on engine mounts now, but I'm using the same extractors I had on the 2.5, so I'll report back on how it sounds/feels etc in comparison to the 2.5 when it happens. I'm not entirely convinced I would do it in a road car, but it's a no-brainer in a track car obviously.
Piss off Choderboy, I saw him first!
yes, you are all arses' holes, all you do is just offend people and turn away valuable members and now that alfashop is gone from our forum we will not be able to buy cheap parts from UK or anywhere overseas at all...
next you will upset Dehne and he will go too and where will we be then...
who will you make fun of then...
you will all be sorry and your cars will rot and all your left nuts will whittle .... and will have to sell the right one to buy parts.....
BTW who sells car parts for nuts ? is that a new interweb thing ?
and i apologise for occasional capitalisation, it is automatic as much as i try to avoid it ....
WTF !!!!!!!
it will take a whole lot more that the selected few on here to piss me off, for the bit of negativity i get here i help alot more people out so i win anyway ;D
Quote from: dehne on August 27, 2010, 01:08:48 AM
it will take a whole lot more that the selected few on here to piss me off, for the bit of negativity i get here i help alot more people out so i win anyway ;D
when are you taking the 90 to bendigo for the dyno run ? i might be heading out there next weekend.
When the green flag drops, the bullshit stops!
hey alfar156, please do come and introduce yourself to me at our next track day you run, that way i can know who you are when im overlapping you for the 2nd or 3rd time in a 5 lap sprint. Honest, its not because id like to slap you behind the neck or anything like that, i mean how could i when id be too busy sourcing spare parts for my broken down car. oh, and thats all in the time while i am trying to think about what exactly i was jealous about. sorry mate, just saying what everyone else was thinking, presumably anybody can correct me if they disagree.
in my opinion ive always thought that there is a reason why people join an official club, ie alfa, compared to other clubs, or in your case simply forums, not targeting any one in particular, and that is because you tend to get along with like minded individuals. hence my point, we are proper hard core alfisti here, we worry about how the car goes, as well as looks, we dont buy our alfas just bc they "look pretty", and we drive them, some other clubs are little more than forums that tend to come and go, this forum is merely an extension of a greater club that has many more things to it. remember that, and remember that when in a few more years when the people on other forums grow up and tire of that type of thing, and it no longer exists, the aroca vic club will still be here, and most likely the few true alfisti from that group will have no other alternative than to put their tails btw their legs and come crawling over.
p.s. just curious as acting my age and all, how much does a left nut actually fetch these days?? its been a while, does it get more than the right one, or is it relative to demand and so forth???? will i get enough from the sale to buy my much needed spare parts???
marvelous, just marvelous!!
hey storm i live in bendigo, if you come over ill take you for a run in it send me a pm or call me on 0418711643 and let me know
Quote from: dehne on August 27, 2010, 05:43:41 PM
hey storm i live in bendigo, if you come over ill take you for a run in it send me a pm or call me on 0418711643 and let me know
u a
if all goes well i hope i can go next weekend. its not exactly in bendigo but very close. If i do come down i will give you a call and you can show me the 90 then i can let the guys here know it was.
ur willing to go 250km/h in a car with a person you have never met? :o
true! ;D
Hi Chris,
Make sure you take your GPS in the car to get an accurate velocity reading when doing 250kph.
Cheers
Andrew
Quote from: BradGTV on August 27, 2010, 07:16:57 PM
ur willing to go 250km/h in a car with a person you have never met? :o
i never said that i was.
but i cant say i have before
if the yellow 90 is doing 200kms ill be happy as it will be parked in the garage as im talking about the grey 90 :D, and i would not do over the speed limit anyway not with the hoon laws in bendigo
For a topic that has had almost 2000 reads, it is one that interest a lot of people including me. It started off with a very worthy request which seemed straight forward and was in the main folowed by good advice that I can see. Somewhere along the lines it has degenerated into an implosion which is a shame.
dehne, you have 927 posts on this Forum and even though I don't know you well, you have always been helpful to me. From other posts that I have read from you, you try to be helpful as a rule. In that context, I believe you have tried to be helpful here but maybe made a slightly ambitious contribution for speed mods either knowingly or unknowingly and have now dug yourself into a hole to save face. The concensus of opinion is against your claim and frankly you are pushing shit up the hill with a pointed stick.
Mate, my suggestion is to retain your credibilty and self respect by admitting you made a mistake. A little humble pie is better than a cork up the foochoo from what I am reading heading your way. Your call.
7 pages!! I'll need a bit more time to form a proper respone, but i don't mind that the topic is now off-topic, still quite amusing :D
Well, I got the result from Dyno Day today, only 106hp in the 24 year old motor! It may not be what it used to, but at least it runs smooth. But, at this point the 3.0L is starting to look more appealing. Will do a bit more research, ask a few more questions :)
106 is pretty averageshit for a 2.5. I got 115 out of my tired one a few years ago, John Toomath did about 125 in his standard one today, that has a nice exhaust system though.
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 28, 2010, 05:21:51 PM
106 is pretty averageshit for a 2.5. I got 115 out of my tired one a few years ago, John Toomath did about 125 in his standard one today, that has a nice exhaust system though.
difference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
My 3.0l cranked out 142.5 and Deano's 136.9 and they're both long in the tooth, mine has 376K on the clock.
Quotedifference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
Just quietly i think Beninca's know what they are doing
Quote from: hmd on August 28, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
difference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
Fair point as I'm sure tyre pressures weren't the same across the field.
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on August 28, 2010, 07:59:25 PM
Quotedifference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
Just quietly i think Beninca's know what they are doing
Yep, but Sheldon said his 115 was a few year ago.
Quotedifference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
I'm sure for the purposes of this particular thread, two consistent observations make a fact. At the dyno day 2 years ago my 2.5 recorded 126hp, yesterday 127hp, so I conclude that Beninca's dyno run technique produces reliable results.
What I did observe was that a number of cars need a bit of a thrash before they turn up for the run, as under load some cars would not spark cleanly and stumbled towards the top end, often accompanied by a carbon cloud.
QuoteYep, but Sheldon said his 115 was a few year ago.
Rest assumed that Sheldon's car usage in the intervening years didn't exactly fall in the "driven by a a little old lady on Sundays category". It may have been driven on Sundays but most likely At Philip Island , Winton & Sandown. As Sheldon said it was "tired", maybe these Sunday outings made it " more tired".
Quote from: hmd on August 28, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on August 28, 2010, 05:21:51 PM
106 is pretty averageshit for a 2.5. I got 115 out of my tired one a few years ago, John Toomath did about 125 in his standard one today, that has a nice exhaust system though.
difference between 106 and 115 could just be in the dyno runs, even on same day you can have 5-10bhp differences in how you tie the car down and tyre pressure etc...
That's true, but John's result certainly shows there is some consistency with the Beninca dyno over different days. I was also comparing it to some of the other results on the day. For example it was 12bhp and 25Nm behind a standard Twinspark, which is not very good at all, and is certainly down to more than just external factors.
Sounds like it may be a pretty tired engine, it might not be worth spending any meaningful money on it? Is it smokey?
I didn't know you were there Sir Lancelot, I would have introduced myself.
QuoteJust quietly i think Beninca's know what they are doing
QuoteThat's true, but John's result certainly shows there is some consistency with the Beninca dyno over different days. I was also comparing it to some of the other results on the day. For example it was 12bhp and 25Nm behind a standard Twinspark, which is not very good at all, and is certainly down to more than just external factors.
Interesting point Sheldon and a suppose it begs the question what was your expectation of your car on the day. ( bragging rights ,or give the car a kick and put it back in the garage.
I couldn't make it yesterday but my Alfetta Twin Spark GTV made 110 rwhp at last years dyno day. I have been back to Beninca's in the last month or so and with a starting point of 110 rwhp . (exact same figure as 12 months earlier) and they have got the car back to 120rwhp. Where was the improvement ?
1. The nuff nuff owner (me) had retrimmed / carpeted the car and didn't set the throttle bump stop on the floor correctly so i wasn't getting full throttle ( + 5 hp)
2. A fiddle with the AFM (+ 5hp)
3. They also noted that the engine could reach full horsepower but it fell away pretty quickly when the engine got hot. So some Beninca improvements to the 30 year old radaditor and i'm reasonably sure that i'm getting a reliable 120 rwhp at the track.
As i mentioned earlier Beninca's really do know their stuff and a few hours of dyno tuning is money well spent. It is therfore little wonder that club luminaries like Alan Goodall & Jim Neilson car's have spent time a fair ammount of time on Beninca's Dyno.
Could somebody please pursuade the Beninca workshop to move to Brisbane for a short 5 year stint ? Guaranteed tax break incentives provided.. ::)
QuoteCould somebody please pursuade the Beninca workshop to move to Brisbane for a short 5 year stint ? Guaranteed tax break incentives provided..
+1
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on August 29, 2010, 02:51:16 PM
a starting point of 110 rwhp . (exact same figure as 12 months earlier) and they have got the car back to 120rwhp. Where was the improvement ?
Dammit Paul. Stop finding power, we were pretty close in terms of speed.
Just as well I'm putting in the 3 litre I suppose.....
Nearly ready.
Thought I might update my experiences of the 3 litre since I put it in, just in case Sir Lancelot is still considering the upgrade.
I got the engine very, very cheap, and I was 99.9% certain that it ran well, and I knew that the belts and water pump were renewed 6 months previously. I probably spent about $1000 on getting it in, but that included buying an engine crane and lots of shiny new tools, and a new centre bearing. It's my first engine transplant so I went through it all slowly and methodically, because I was lifting and installing the engine on my own, and it's hard enough doing it once that I REALLY didn't want to have to lift it again. I'm not too handy with the tools, but I managed to get the thing in and started, so it's not too hard a job. I'm running the standard L-Jetronic from the 90 in it for now.
The first decent jab of the throttle on it's first run and I was already convinced that every 75, 90 and GTV6 should be like this. It's a very, very nice engine, and the mid-range is just sooooo much better than the 2.5. Mid-range is what you feel the most on the road, so the 3-litre really is the way to go. It doesn't have quite the rush at the top end that you get used to with the 2.5, but that's because you're already going a lot quicker thanks to the much bigger mid-range. I will definitely be putting a 3 litre into my road 90 when I get the opportunity, and I would highly recommend it over doing any serious mods to a 2.5.
The sound is definitely different to the 2.5, but if anything I prefer the sound of the 3.0 It sounds like a bigger, angrier version of the 2.5 at low and mid-range engine speeds. It doesn't scream quite like the 2.5 at the top end, unfortunately.
One caveat though, I've only driven the 3-litre in my 90 (and a 164, but that's not really relevant here when we're talking about the lighter cars), which has a stripped out interior with no sound deadening, and it's sitting on some polyurethane engine mounts, so every noise and vibration is amplified, and it's lighter than a road car (but not to a huge degree).
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on November 23, 2010, 12:15:47 AM
The first decent jab of the throttle on it's first run and I was already convinced that every 75, 90 and GTV6 should be like this. It's a very, very nice engine, and the mid-range is just sooooo much better than the 2.5. Mid-range is what you feel the most on the road, so the 3-litre really is the way to go. It doesn't have quite the rush at the top end that you get used to with the 2.5, but that's because you're already going a lot quicker thanks to the much bigger mid-range. I will definitely be putting a 3 litre into my road 90 when I get the opportunity, and I would highly recommend it over doing any serious mods to a 2.5.
One caveat though, I've only driven the 3-litre in my 90 (and a 164, but that's not really relevant here when we're talking about the lighter cars), which has a stripped out interior with no sound deadening, and it's sitting on some polyurethane engine mounts, so every noise and vibration is amplified, and it's lighter than a road car (but not to a huge degree).
Rest assured that the feeling of monstrous torque increases over the 2.5 is still there in a full trim road car (right Simmo?). 100% agree that every GTV6 should have come with the 3 litre. Not so sure about the 90's getting it though :P
Quote from: Jekyll and Hyde on November 23, 2010, 07:11:32 PM
Rest assured that the feeling of monstrous torque increases over the 2.5 is still there in a full trim road car (right Simmo?).
Yeeeesssssss!!!!!!
Sheldon - Thanks very much for the description, i'm a little more inspired, and would definitely love the chance to do the transplant myself. At this stage its a matter of setting aside the time and money, so the project is on hold. When the time comes, i'll seek out your expertise :) In the meantime, i'll research what i need and what it takes. I think the biggest unknown for me is exactly what comes from the 3L, what is retained from the 2.5L and what requires serious modification, if anything.
Happy to help. There were numerous bits of information I gleaned from various sources on the web which were very helpful, and there're plenty of people in the club and on this forum who have done the same thing and can point you in the right direction. As I said, if I can get it done (albeit very slowly), anyone can.
The way I did it, keeping the 2.5 plenum and injectors etc, no serious modifications are needed. It's a bit more involved if you want to keep the 3 litre stuff. I didn't bother because I'll probably go to a megasquirt or similar eventually.
This link http://www.alfamilano.com/verde_rebuild/finishingup.htm (http://www.alfamilano.com/verde_rebuild/finishingup.htm) will give you some idea of what's involved.
Hi,
I have been reading this thread over time - started interesting, digressed to total (but entertaining) BS and has become interesting again...
I want to pose a question - we all want the power & torque of a 3.0 but the sound of a 2.5 right? What are people's thoughts, pro's/con's of going supercharged 2.5 vs NA 3.0? Of course you could go for supercharged 3.0, but if figure the next step from a NA 2.5 is either the 3.0 of to strap on a supercharger for probably around the same number of shekels. My way of thinking is the supercharger - gives power, keeps the sound...
Cheers
Marty
The difference between the sound of these engines is both overstated and negligible.
If the plan is to improve performance of the 2.5 by supercharging simply on the basis of engine noises, do not leave out the perceived benefits by ignoring how muich of a pain in the rear all the charger whine is going to impose.(for a street car).
Follow the KISS rule. Strap in a 3 litre. Save bucks and complexity. Keep the true engine noise only by fitting an appropriate exhaust system and open up the intakes. You'll soon be basking in V6 glory.
If you want to improve on the 3 litre, import the 2 litre V6 and strap on twin turbos, take it to 10,000 rpm and measure the grin in feet and not in inches.
My understanding is supercharging isn't difficult, will give you more torque/power across the range compared to 3.0L, but cooling is an issue, and the total setup will cost you significantly more than a 3.0L conversion. So in my case, i'm avoiding it for those two reasons. Check out Greg Gordan's kits for more info on supercharging alfas.
http://www.hiperformancestore.com/superchargerkit.htm#Supercharger kits
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfetta-gtv6-1975-1986/89055-2-5l-3-0l-your-2-cents-needed.html
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfetta-gtv6-1975-1986/7150-gtv6-supercharger-kit.html