What's a car worth? Quite often the forum gets a request to pass an opinion on a car for sale to get some idea of whether the asking price is value or not. Most of us have a gut feeling of what we are prepared to pay based upon many things but essentialy relying on the so called "going rate".
When it comes to the various character of owners, they vary from the traditional who expect their cars to be in nothing but concourse condition. People in the middle who just want it mechanically right and the rev heads who simply want to make it go quick. Naturally, there are many shades in between.
As the GTV6 is now more than two decades old, it stands to reason that people buying them for the first time should expect maintenance to be carried based upon the owner profile that they are and what they eventually expect from the car.
I dont know how many have sat down and pencilled out a budget to FULLY restore one of these cars and those who haven't may find my scribblings of some value having done the restoration exercise myself.
Assuming you bought a complete car for just $100 and you want to finish up as close to the original showroom condition as it was sold when new. The following table of costs will vary based upon prices you can negotiate, where you live and only serves as guide. It assumes the work to be done by the trade.
So if you are in the market for these types of cars at least you have some idea what the real value of them is depending on their condition and state of restoration (if any).
Spot on MD. As I read through your list, I was thinking 'yes, that's pretty right, that one is a little lean, that one is right', and presto at the bottom it is quite a large number. It really is that easy to spend that much :o
In fact the cost of Paint and Panel could easily double or triple (or more?) depending on the level of rust, previous poor quality repairs and/or prior accident damage.
Makes me wonder why I am starting this process again with the 105......then again...not really, I love it!
good job on the quote, i would just swap interior for paint and panel price, a question though, is there anyone that would actually pay that sort of cash on a gtv6, the highest price/sale i have seen was in italy in the region of umbria an 85gtv6 49k on the clock charcoal in colour with deep burgandy leather interior one owner, immac,14500 euro about 12mts ago
I can't open MD's file on this little toy of a computer I am on. What was the final figure please ?
John
Final figure is $45,700 and my own thoughts are this is conservative. Agree with other comments that $6K is pretty cheap for paintwork. The only two panelbeaters I trust estimate a bare metal 105 respray will cost $15K.
Lighting may also cost more than the $2K allowed after noting what people are now asking for perfect GTV6 lights/ indicator lenses etc.
The moral of the story (unfortunately) is that it is far cheaper & quicker to buy an immaculate Alfa GTV6/ 105 etc that restore one.
My 'guesstimate' is that if you are patient, immaculate GTV6's might fetch around $15K.
Paul
I have one for sale, clean and when Bruno finishes with it to roadworthy you dont need to spend $45,000 in fact less than a quarter for her.......If youre not from melbourne,Bruno[club member] at MARANELLO PURSANG MOTORS on 03 9386 9650 for details...........silver/80,000KM?............DAVIDT. 0415 803 891 MORNINGS.
This story is scary-sounds like a bottomless pit.rgrds
Thanks Paul
I agree $45,700 sounds like a tight budget to work with.
Considering these cars cost up to $39,000 for a new Grand Prix I would say $45,700 to bring one to as new is a bargain.
The only two things I can't live with is the non LSD box and the standard suspension.(add $5,000)
Also add big brakes and a supercharger kit and your looking at another ($10,000)
So for $60,700 you can have a GTV6 to match modern day performance cars with style and class.
I am sure if I was advertise a such a car I would be lucky to get offers of $20,000.
John
Good stuff MD, definatley a big number at the bottom which could well be exceeded. When it comes to Paint & Panel it can be a bit of an open checkbook, as Ive discovered since delivering the 105 to ther panel beater on the weekend (finally!) but I agree with Phil its a labour of love !
What I have attempted to do is to illustrate to the intending buyer that there are at least 3 types of mindsets operating out there when it comes to buying and using these cars. Please don't take this too literally.
1 The under $10,000 Group
Here people are toe dipping. Not wanting to risk too much particularly if they have never had one before. Leaving some funds in reserve when things go wrong as they expect they will (and they do).
2 The $10-20,000 Group
These guys know what this car is about and have a thorough liking for them. They can be (but not necessarily) mechanically minded, cannot be bothered working on them or simply looking for originality. They want a reliable machine, as original as possible that has good presentation.Deviation from the original is usually frowned upon and it doesn't matter what you paid for those subwoofers 'cause their value is being seriously marked down.
3 The $20,000 plus group
These guys would sleep with these cars if the missus would only agree. The final price is not as important as what they get for the money. They are actually in two subgroups. The first are the concourse lads who want to replicate the factory down to zinc platting all the hinges and door locks, screws, nuts, bolts and kill for original decals and transfers. Originality is king.
The second subgroup know what this car was actually meant for and they want to fully restore it but unlike the factory, they want to replace components to homolgate a car that now performs better than the original but looks the goods as well. Originality is pursued but is not the sole criteria.
So I think we need to rethink just where we fit in before we decide on what is the real value of these cars as I think in some cases, they are just lumped into one mindset and being sold way too cheap.
Nicely put Mike!
So for 3 of my cars I am mindset 3.
For 3 of my cars I am mindset 3 subgroup 2.
And for the other two I am subgroup 2 aka (Dont give a toss as long as it is RWD and Alfa.)
John
Guys
Lombardi - fully agree!
John, PM me if you plan to advertise 'such a GTV6' for $20K ONO but don't start me on RWD versus FWD (naturally as a Sud owner)!
...and MD, agree with your comments and that some cars are sold too cheaply but that is life in a capitalist market where demand & liquidity for a good is limited.
Ultimately, owning these cars and the satisfaction derived is beyond any economic monetary value.
Regards
Paul
Evening all and given I have gone through the restoration process with my '69 AC Fiat 124 sport, am part way through the resto of my '69 Giulia Super and have started to acquire parts for my '69 1750 GTV, let alone owned both an Alfetta Gt and sedan in the part let me add my thoughts to the comments here, for I have a little first hand experience
I will qualify this by adding though that I havn't owned or even driven a GTV6 yet, but perhaps one day. So if I am wrong in my views on some of the costs, I am the first to accept this might be so.
However, and to the purpose of the thread topic. From my observations the majority of GTV6s that have been for sale over the past couple of years have ranged from a few sub $2k cars (rusty wrecks), to the middle ground area of $6500-1200 and then occasionally a few in the $15 -20K mark. I can only recall a couple of standard GTV6's for over $30K (I think there currently is one for sale for $35K), but frankly I don't like their chances of getting this sort of money. Obviously there have been some race cars etc for sale for well over $20K and it is no point bringing into the equation Scott Farqueson's (cant spell his name) car, since this is a different kettle of fish, being a somewhat very special car.
Ok, so that is the current market as I see it.
However, I would question some of the estimated costs attributed to bringing a $6K GTV6 upto the stated total expenditure of $47500. For one thing I agree re the comments that allowing $6k for a full strip and re-paint is probably too low, but then again I also think from my experience that $5k is probably too high for the interior (and that is even allowing for a full re-trim (seats/door cards), new headlining, and carpets. I have done both my Fiat and my Giulia (in connolly leather), plus all other interior trim for about $3K. Then there is the question of allowing $10k for an engine rebuild. This to my mind seems extremely expensive (perhaps I am wrong). I could go on, as I suspect there are numerous items which could either be deleted from the list or alternatively an owner could find a better option. ie. why spend so much on an engine, rather than obtaining a decent 2nd hand one (apart from the issue of originality). Use e-bay, overseas parts suppliers etc.
The problem though as I see it is that no one is likely to even remotely pay nearly $50K for an Alfetta GTV6 or invest that much in restoring one, for which you will never see a return on it, especially if you can get a perfectly nice one for between $8-12K. So why bother even contemplate the idea, as it make little economical sense. Ah ha though we are talking about Alfas and of course our hearts rule ;D
A quote from the BB, from someone in Tassie (not sure if you are on here too) I like the theory behind his thinking.... http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1965-1974/159263-plz-help-i-need-some-feedback-spent.html (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1965-1974/159263-plz-help-i-need-some-feedback-spent.html)
QuoteJust as an alternative way of looking at the amount spent vs. what it's worth afterwards - I always try to put on my "buying a new car tinted glasses" - i.e. how much will I have spent on it in total? What sort of new car would that buy me? How much would that new car be worth 5 mins after leaving the dealership? And finally, how much would I enjoy buying & owning that new car?
Generally, I find the money spent on the Alfa better "value"
Nice sum up MD.
So it's easy to see how you could end up with a 50-60k GTV6. No, I don't see anyone paying you 60k for it given what else they could buy for that money, but then if someone's willing to write a cheque for nearly a million bucks for a GTHO Falcon (what could you fill your garage with for that sort of coin???) then anything can happen ;D
On the flip side, sometime these circumstances can work in your favour – I bought a Webasto-roofed 1967 1300GT Junior for NZD7700 just after the previous owner spent NZD26,000 restoring it ;)
QuoteUltimately, owning these cars and the satisfaction derived is beyond any economic monetary value
Well put Paul!
All but a small handful of the 38 cars I've owned have been bough heart over head and this has probably been to my financial detriment. I say 'probably' because frankly I've never bothered to quantify it – cars bought from the heart pay you back in so many other ways that aren't easy to put a price on.
Rory
Davidm1750
I believe your views typify the majority of thinking out there very well which is precisely the point I am putting the magnifier on. Here's the condensed version of what I am saying.
1 A $20,000 GTV6 in beautiful original condition is realistically a car that is several decades old.
2 A $50,000 GTV6 is a new car that WAS several decades old but has undergone a metamorphosis.
It's value needs to compete with a new Alfa coupe value if there is such a comparable in the first place.
As for cutting corners and sticking a good used motor in from ebay, well if that's what the Alfa factory did for a new production car I guess that would be acceptable. Of course that is a dumb proposition on my part and neither would it be appropriate for a proper restoration project that is honest to bone .
Just so I don't get misunderstood here. I am in awe at the ability of owners who manage to keep their cars in immaculate condition for as long as they do so please don't take any of my comments as somehow denegrating your car or talents. It's about respect for the original and respect for guys who replicate the original on equal terms.
Hi MD
Interesting thread.
Working in manufacturing I'd take issue with calling a 50k GTV6 a new car though. It might well have undergone a major metamorphosis but to me a more accurate description would be to call it re-manufactured or refurbished. Ultimately it is still a restored example of a car originally designed and manufactured several decades ago. Even Nissan, when it started a programme of buying and restoring old Datsun 240Zs back in about 2006, sold them as remanufactured rather than new products.
I'm guessing we could probably debate the subtleties of this for a while (wouldn't be the first time ;D )
Cheers mate
Rory
Hi MD, I don't mind reading your views on the issue and no worries take absolutely no offense, since I know none was intended, as neither I did. What I was trying to convey is that there is a market for all possibilities, the issue though is of pragmatism and practicality versus the ideal. Sure in an ideal world someone might wish to spend upto say $50K restoring a GTV6 but in terms of practicality it makes little economic sense in todays market, and secondly in truth I doubt there would be relatively few customers contemplating say a new GTV who would contempate the fully restored/re-manufactured GTV6. The cars in the end would appeal to different markets, that is unless in the GTV6 one could include front and side airbags, stability control, traction control, ABS, aircon, satnav, power steering, zenon lighting, etc etc and fundamentally a decent gearbox. But then you wouldn't have that 80s GTV6.
Perhaps in 10 or 20 years time spending upto $50K might be acceptable, who knows ??? As to the equation of comparing that against say a 'hyper inflated' Aussie muscle car this makes little sense to me. I can't even begin to imagine the logic in paying so much $$$ for a GT Chook or Monaro etc. The problem there is if I were to begin to pay so much $$ for a GTV6 or far worse still one of those Aussie cars, I would seriously be looking at instead Italian exotica, Porsches and Astons etc. The market for the Aussie muscle car is a completely different issue.
So and in respect of that, the most logical alternative to an owner wishing to bring their GTV6 up to sound specification but at the same time trying to stay reasonably within a budget is to look for alternatives, such as I alluded to. I am not saying it is the necessarily the best option if you are trying to keep your car original but in the end it still has to be a practical option to consider.
Let me give an example. I have been restoring my Giulia Super for the past 7 years and who knows when it will be finished. And yes it will have cost me more than I could sell it for, ie. best guess say $25-30K. However, in my case, I needed new doors as the old one were rusted out, it needed new cills, and literally so many other parts. But given I have to work within some sort of budget this includes both new and second hand parts. For instance ebay for the script work which will be re-chromed, but new lights, lens, rubbers, but I can live with its original glass (including windscreen). The gearbox was totally overhauled by a mate for a bottle of decent red ( I paid only for the parts), but I need a replacement engine since the original one was destroyed by a mate I previously leant it to. The interior, given I like the look of the '67 over the '69 is a total replacement but is a mix of 2nd hand and new. ie. 2nd hand instruments, new headlining, door cards, carpets, dash cap and timber veneers, and of course the 2nd hand seats have been re-bolstered and covered in leather.
When I can afford it the suspension and brakes will be totally overhauled, with both a mix of new and the original parts. So in effect what I will end up with is an example of "grandad's axe". However, in a way it is not really unlike what was suggested re the GTV6 project since all the 2nd hand parts are to be subject to re-furbishment.
Rory in my mind is definitely on the money here since I too recall Nissan's program to re-manufacture the 240z. Similarly today, you can order a new body shell for your (105 GTV), and all the parts to totally rebuild your car from Classic Alfa, Alfaholics etc. My only question here is though, would what you end up with being a re-manufactured GTV or a possibly a replica ????
Lest we get into a discussion that is bigger than the Sydney Morning Herald double spread, I have no intention of having the last word here as I think my views should now be clear. It's what makes being in the Alfa fraternity so great as we have a bunch of alternate thinkers that give stuff the real shake down. Appreciate your contribution David and likewise everybody else who has chimmed in. I'll end by saying that the last fully restored 2 litre 105 coupe I saw about 6 years ago in concourse condition had a price tag of $40,000 on it. Frankly it was worth every cent. Make of that what you will.
As for you John, I am getting worried about you for sure. I think you are due for the Alfa antidote. You are one sick puppy. I prescribe a three weeks motoring holiday in a Corolla. Remember you should listen to your MD if you want to get well. ;D ;D
I thought this would be a fun thread to dig up, posted almost 10 years ago. It seems GTV6 prices have been on the move over the last year or two. I suppose having Clarksons example on the Grand Tour recently would only help values along further.
I think the main problem with restoring a GTV6 is the lack of cosmetic parts available, there is a very limited supply of plastic parts available, although this might be slowly improving as i see you can now get the sunroof handle surrounds and a couple other small interior bits. This is a stark contrast to 105's, which appear to have almost everything available.
There doesn't appear to be any headlining kits, velour pinstripe fabric available, plastic bumpers (although it appears you can get the small corner infills and side skirts now). New rear lights seem to be all NOS and command big $$$.
I have a late '85 GTV6 that i will be restoring, the car is very original, right down to the original windscreen and Alfa Romeo tape deck, but it's a bit scruffy, bumpers warped, interior getting tired etc. I'd love to keep it as original as possible, but it's hard to do when so little is available.
What are your thoughts, will the aftermarket warm up to the GTV6 now that prices are on the rise?
I think the Alfetta's will increase in value, no doubt about it.
As the 105 series edges away people will go the next 'affordable' model and the Alfetta is it.
I reckon a late model Alfetta GTV 4 cyl. perhaps with a sunroof, AC (if thats what you want) is a bargain at 10-15K. V6's are more of course.
The prices will go up as they get drawn/sucked into the vacuum of the 105's. For example witness the muscle car scene here in Oz.
As say, the genuine Falcon GT prices went stratospheric, replica's, Fairmont V8's, GS's etc. got sucked into the vortex.
The whole Alfetta range is heading the same way. Other contributing factors have a say too, condition, rarity, race history etc.
Cheers,
Paul.
I'm not so sure, agreed a rising tide floats all boats, however I have my doubts about Alfettas.
I have now "restored" two GTV6s, a split dash and my current SA 3 litre. Neither has been restored to a standard I would have liked because all of the important cosmetic parts, bumpers, skirts, lights, interior trim aren't available.
To be brutally frank, the build quality is crap, gaps are all over the place and the quality of the plastics is laughable. The early cars are prettier and have fewer issues in this area, but they rust like there's no tomorrow. I know because I also restored a square headlight Sud.
The only plastic bumper cars I can see having any real value are GTV6s. Trouble is, compare the interior of a 105, any 105, with a GTV6. 105 interiors are classy. Alfetta interiors are not, they feel old, narrow and cheap. The coupe driving position is rubbish too. Mechanically, they are not as robust as 105s either. Lets not discuss the gear change, the heavy steering or the understeer, yes the last two can be dealt with, but 105s don't have these issues as standard.
The Alfetta coupe body was 7 years old when the plastic update was introduced, whilst successful, it did little to enhance the original Giugiaro design and then staggered on for a further 6 years or so, by which time the world had passed it by.
The major attraction of the GTV6 is the engine, which is a gem, once you've dealt with the head gaskets, timing belt tensioner, and exhaust cam lobe wear. The electrics are a joke and the design of the A/C system is beyond belief.
Despite all of this I love them, now being on my fifth. As most do, I bought the first for the glorious wailing little V6 and put up with rest.
Nevertheless, I don't think they will ever match or surpass the best 105s in value or regard. I believe the 105 series Alfas are best driving cars of the 60s and still fun today. The 70s Alfetta sedans were very good, as with most Alfas, better than the coupes, but by the 80s it was all over.
Forget values, you should only own these because you love them. 8)
GG,
Agree with all points you have made (still miss my Alfetta sedan).
I guess I was saying they will go up somewhat but yeah I doubt they will
Hit the heights of 105's.
Cheers,
Paul.
Wow GG105 what a can of worms !
Love 'em. hate 'em, frustrated by them, can't live without 'em.
Mate you need to open the cheque book at Alfaholics to get a proper 105 and it's only cost over $200K to fix the problems... ( ;D keeping it light here)
I have owned a Giulia Sprint GT, a 2L Berlina and Giulia Super. I know a couple of things about them. However I have no intention of making a quid pro quo list of 105 demerits as that would not be constructive to the many devotees of them (me included). The subject heading was never envisioned to make comparisons between series as such thing is a whole other topic remembering that a faultless Alfa has yet to be created-just ask Top Gear ;D
With the 105 series becoming more and more scarce, Alfa enthusiast naturally gravitate to what is affordable and logic would have it to experiment with the 116 series as they are /were comparatively cheap. Like all used cars, they come with pitfalls and I was hoping that this little subject would provide some insights into these cars for future buyers to consider and weigh up the pros and cons. To that end, I thank you for your contribution.
My take has always been with any Alfa I have ever owned and that is, appreciate the great aspects of it and set about fixing the parts the bean counters went too tight on the purse strings with. If you do that with a GTV6, it will reward you without reservation.
MD, my point is that when new both 105s and Alfettas occupied the same price sector. I know about modding 105s, I have one in my 1300TI, and you don't need to spend $200k at Alfaholics or with anyone else. Plus, since you raised it, a lot of these mods lose the delicacy that makes a 105 so special. I own a mint, stock, 1300 Junior and have owned a low mile stock Giulia Super. My point was is that a stock 105, any 105, in good condition is a joy.
In my view Alfettas, are not as nice. In my post I was responding to views about prospective values in earlier posts, and why I think non V6 Alfetta values will remain subdued ;D
I just hope whatever happens, more restoration parts will become available, i agree, the interiors are awful in comparison to the 105's. My '67 Super is miles ahead in fit and finish, not just the interior, but the bodywork as well. The late 70's and early 80's were just not a great era for any car manufacturer it seems, but Alfa was particularly loose in quality control! I found the 75 interiors to hold up a bit better, the dashes in those never seem to crack either.
It reminds me of a quote an auto journalist wrote, they were well aware of all the cars foibles, but it just got under their skin, the quote was something like 'with so many faults in its design, you couldn't recommend a GTV6 to anybody but yourself'.
Hi GoldCLoverLeaf
In response to your initial query of how much to restore a GTV6, I can only offer my recent experience involving a cosmetic refresh carried out on my 1983 Alfetta GTV4. This is dependent on how much you can do yourself and source out, but a repaint, new interior (seats and dash), exterior trims and plastics (rear louvres, front vents, wiper covers, front grille and front outer headlights) cost me around $10K. I have included before and after shots below as a picture says a thousand words.
One last photo
I never tire of seeing pics of Bonno's beast - but I can only assume that to have done all that for just $10k (including that fabulous leather interior) very little metal work/welding was required? (How I wish!)
Anyway, as far as values go, there is no doubt they have risen sharply since I bought my reasonably straight but scruffy GTV for $4k in 2015.
From what I've seen, it seems pretty hard to find a road-registered and driveable GTV for under $10k now, while anything in good condition is more like $15k, to which you can add at least another $5k to each category if its a V6 (showroom GTV6s all seem to be in plus $30k bracket now)
Whether they can double again is hard to guess, but I sure hope so - 'cos mine owes me over $10k already...
I sold this red '77 10 years ago for for something like $4500. I've always had a soft spot for a 4 banger 'fetta. My first car when i was a teenager in Vancouver was a Californian import Alfetta GTV 'Sprint Veloce' with the dreaded Spica mechanical injection. It was a factory black car with tan vinyl interior and black/polished Momo Vegas. I really wanted a GTV6, but a nice one was like... $6000 at the time! Had to settle for the $3000 option. How times change!
Hopefully the red one i restored is still getting around Byron Bay, i did a NSW online rego check, it's still registered with the same plates.
105 coupe prices are crazy right now. I own one, have had it for 36 years and will not part with it, but they are overvalued for what they are and how many were built. Here in the US it seems there are always a couple on BAT at any one time, whereas Alfetta coupes are much less common but just this week a so-so original one with 19,000 miles on it sold for $12,500 USD. Which seems to me to be super cheap even with the US spec. A comparable 105 would be multiples of that and there'd be a line of bidders fighting over every inch of it.
Interesting observation Aggie57. 105 project cars are now $20K, clean ones above $40K. They don't seem to be moving however. I recently got quoted $20K - $30K for floors, sills & bare metal respray on a 105.
Meanwhile clean and tidy 116 GTV's (4cyl) are now $10K -$15K with only the best examples selling from what I can see. Not many GTV6's on the market whilst I've been keeping an eye out. A couple of clean examples in the mid $30K's but add a paint job to that.
It's hard to predict where 116 GTV prices will go. Restoration costs and parts availability seem to be a drag on prices. I think 105 cars will always provide a ceiling on 116 GTV prices just due to their popularity despite 116's currently being the rarer car at the moment. At this year's Spettacolo there were far fewer 116 GTV's on display, which kind of appeals to me.
I am a fan of (4-cyl) Alfetta coupes but have to say the sedans are much better cars overall. Having owned two sedans, three coupes and a 75, the 75 is the best car to drive (in stock condition) followed by the alfetta sedan and the coupe last of all. Which one do I want to drive all the time? The coupe. However, to make the coupe a decent proposition (IMHO) it needs a few modifications to begin with: a TS engine, a TS gearbox and some serious electrical improvements. I have done this twice now and they are fantastic cars but hardly original. By comparison the 75 needs very little improvements (some electrical work but not as much as the coupe). I use my 75 as a daily driver with the baby seat in the back. The GTV is for whenever I can. The 75 is worth far less than the GTV (admittedly mine is in need of a serious paint job) and I don't 'love it' quite as much as the GTV.
As to restoration costs. I fully restored and modified a GTV about 8 years ago with TS engine and gearbox and upgraded suspension and brakes. Even doing most of the mechanical and electrical work myself it cost me almost $30k in parts and a paint job. The paint was a good chunk of that but they did do a very good job and there was some rust removal required as expected. At the time people questioned my sanity in spending that much money on such car however I justified it by way of a comparison. At the same time my wife bought a VW Golf for similar money (admittedly no work was required) but to choose between the cars was a no-brainer! I rebuilt it to use as a daily and did so. I never intended to sell but realised I would never get my money back if I did.
Some good honest home truths there. :)
I think the best built Alfa transaxle is the 75 series by far but it will never out trump the coupe for a million crazy reasons. Your summation says it pretty well.
Have to agree with GTVeloce. A steel bumped Alfetta with 75 running gear & GTV 6 brakes is a great package.Correctly set up you won't find many better handling cars. But then again I'm biased . Also agree on his costing's