Hi Guys - I am really keen to buy a 2006 Brera 2.2L (with only @55k on the clock) which seems to be in good nick thru a dealer ... my concern is the variable reports I have read regarding the JTS engine and the Brera's mechanical/electrical system in general - its a great looking car ... can any give me some advice re the pitfalls of owning a Brera and generally advise whether buying 2006 model is a smart thing to do overall - thanks very much and best regards
Don't buy a Selespeed.
The cambelt and tensioners have to be done every 3 years, if you don't adhere to this, scan the wreckers for a replacement motor.
The coil packs can wear out at about 100,000 and when one fails, the Motor Control System Failure light will come up.
The 4 Lambda Sensors will have to be replaced about 100,000 - 120,000 klms, overwise the engine will stumble.
The JTS engine is very smooth and torquey, and it gives excellent fuel consumption, mine does average 7.4 litres per 100 kilometres.
The JTS engine is direct injection and uses oil, you must check oil every week, otherwise, keep an eye for a replacement engine and it likes the good stuff, fully synthetic racing oil, 10-60, of your favourite brand.
The suspension can start to rattle at 80,000, usually top control arms, followed by anti roll bar, the roll bar needs to be replaced as an assembly, not just bushes, and the subframe has to be dropped down to do it, about 100mm, this is an expensive job.
See the Top Gear test on the Brera vs Mazda RX8 vs Audi TT, the Brera was the worst car....but it was the one they would all buy, as you are not a petrol head until you own an Alfa Romeo, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on August 02, 2014, 11:59:03 PM
Don't buy a Selespeed.
The cambelt and tensioners have to be done every 3 years, if you don't adhere to this, scan the wreckers for a replacement motor.
The coil packs can wear out at about 100,000 and when one fails, the Motor Control System Failure light will come up.
The 4 Lambda Sensors will have to be replaced about 100,000 - 120,000 klms, overwise the engine will stumble.
The JTS engine is very smooth and torquey, and it gives excellent fuel consumption, mine does average 7.4 litres per 100 kilometres.
The JTS engine is direct injection and uses oil, you must check oil every week, otherwise, keep an eye for a replacement engine and it likes the good stuff, fully synthetic racing oil, 10-60, of your favourite brand.
The suspension can start to rattle at 80,000, usually top control arms, followed by anti roll bar, the roll bar needs to be replaced as an assembly, not just bushes, and the subframe has to be dropped down to do it, about 100mm, this is an expensive job.
See the Top Gear test on the Brera vs Mazda RX8 vs Audi TT, the Brera was the worst car....but it was the one they would all buy, as you are not a petrol head until you own an Alfa Romeo, Colin.
What are you on about Colin? He is talking about a 2.2 JTS.
It doesn't come with selespeed option.
It has a timing chain, not a cam belt.
And the Brera/159 is a completely different car to your 156 JTS 2.0.
The coil packs and oxy sensors don't seem to give trouble on these motors
The motor shouldn't use any excessive amounts of oil.
And you shouldn't put 10w/60 in it!
5w/40 is specified.
The suspension shouldn't give any of the troubles you have mentioned, these cars aren't prone to those issues.
The only things I've seen are a potential problem with the ignition wiring loom, it can cause ECU fault codes and rough running. Also they sometime have problems with the hill holder and ABS system, but sometimes this can be due to a faulty clutch or brake switch.
The timing chain eventually stretches, and then will cause a few codes to pop up, to do with phase synchronisation. Sometimes it is the variable cam timing solenoids though. None of these parts are cheap mind you, but overall it is a very good reliable car with less problems than a 932 series.
For the most part, you shouldn't have any more trouble with one of these than you would with any other car.
Colin - You give a lot of great advice on here, and people value and trust your opinions/advice, so I suggest it is important in your case to read posts better before jumping the gun and giving out misleading information!
Cheers.
Mick.
Whoops, wrong JTS, memo to self read the subject more thoroughly before posting, been talking about JTS's too much lately, the JTS in the Brera is the 2.2 GM based motor, Colin.
hi
my wifes car is a 07 brera 2.2 jts SELESPEED done 70000kays.
the only problem ever being a faulty $40 brake switch that was
kicking it into safety mode :)
joe
That's right joe. From memory it was an option on the 07' model onwards.
I don't think it was for the 06' model he is looking at buying.
But I could be wrong.
yep your right mick
just did a aami get a quote and only manual came up for 06 :-[
rdo today :)
No reason for the 2.2 JTS not to be a reliable engine if looked after. The problem with the 2.2 and the Brera is perceptional. People think a sporty looking coupe is going to be some kind of high performance car. It's not. The 'overweight' issue with the pre-TBi 159s is probably amplified with the Brera, because the latter is bought with an expectation of it being a 'junior 4200 coupe' rather than a 'junior Quattroporte'. If you want a stylish GT in the true sense of touring then the Brera will do that with the 2.2 and in an easy to own fashion.
One thing. The earth lead on my old '06 159 came unbolted from the gearbox housing at one point. Check and tighten if needed. Only electrical fault of any consequence ever encountered with the 2.2, and no mechanical issues.
Not sure where to put this but... Do all brera engines use a timing chain?
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G'day.
Yes both engines that were options on the Brera came with chains as they are GM blocks with Alfa modified heads.
Both the 2.2 and 3.2 are prone to stretching the timing chain.
At first it will only cause a warning light, but over time will drastically reduce the power output of the engine.
2.2 is an easy chain to replace, but the 3.2 is a very big job.
-mick.
Awesome thanks mate. I'm looking at the 2.2 anyway.
Reason I ask is because I heard pre 2007 models used timing belts.
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2.2 & 3.2 breras all run timing chain engines. Selespeed was an option from 2007 onwards for the 2.2 engine. The 3.2 was partnered with a manual or automatic gearbox.
The 1750 turbo IMO is the most desired version due to the rarity and also the finishing; 19 inch horeshoe wheels, better sests, darker interior trim and lighter weight meaning it can reach 100 km/hr in 7.7 secs as opposed to 8.6 for the 2.2 and 6.8 for the 3.2.
Older breras are known for power steering rack failures close to 100,000kms
My apologies, I forgot the Brera did come out with the 1750 motor. And this is the only engine for the brera that does use a timing BELT.
Hi PAX,
I have a late 2008 159 3.2 JTS. There is nothing wrong with the JTS engines. The problem is more to do with lack of maintenance! The first thing I'd do is check the Brera's service history and contact the previous owner/s. My 159 Service Book recommends service / engine oil change every 25,000 km, however locally applied stickers placed in the Owners Manual recommend servicing every 35,000 km! No engine oil will provide the required protection at that low level of service. Fiat and most other manufacturers cave in to fleet buyers with regard to service intervals. Fleet buyers will be attracted to cars with the lowest service costs / longest service intervals.
If the Brera JTS you are looking at has a genuine 55K on the clock and has been serviced / oil and oil filter changes at no more than 25,000 km is should be ok. If you buy the Brera change the engine oil and engine filter the minute you get it home. Then replace the oil AND oil filter every 10,000 km - regardless of your driving habits and the type / brand of oil you use. Oil and oil filters are cheap! Changing the oil filter on the 159 V6 is a shit. The engine under-tray has to be removed to gain access. Wouldn't surprise me at all if this was too much effort for some "service" providers!
Timing chains do not stretch. They will get longer due to wear but they will certainly not stretch. The chain is loaded way below its yield point. The increase in length is due to wear and the wear is almost always due to poor lubrication. Any engine component will wear if it is not lubricated correctly. The Alfa JTS engine actually alerts you to this wear by bringing up a crank / cam phasing alarm. This alarm, ultimately caused by a worn timing chain is confirmation the engine has not received adequate lubrication. When this alarm is displayed it should not be ignored!
The Alfa JTS timing chain is no more or less fit for purpose tan any other timing chain. The roller cam followers reduce valve train friction and heat compared to direct acting buckets. No need for tandem or twin link chains. The added weight, load and friction associated with twin link chains would actually increase lubrication requirements. Given a timing chain features many hundreds of moving parts all requiring lubrication, the frequency of oil changes is critical. Maintained correctly from new, timing chains are usually very reliable. If they weren't they would be so widely used!
Not wanting to open a can of worms here, but I'd be running away from any 159 with 25,000km between oil changes. The service book does state that distance for service interval, but that's no reason not to do engine oil / filter changes more frequently.
My 1750TBi has only ticked over 30,000km so its changes are annual, but an Alfa specialist notates oil and filter for my more regularly driven Mercedes at 10,000km intervals. My 2.2 tended to get fresh oil any time it went into the dealership. Sadly it would been Selenia (another can of worms...). ::)
Quote from: Colin Edwards on August 23, 2016, 01:47:39 PM
Timing chains do not stretch. They will get longer due to wear but they will certainly not stretch.
Sorry Colin, can you please clarify for me because I'm confused by that comment.
Also thought just for interests sake I would attach a photo of a timing chain on a 2.2 I replaced recently to demonstrate a worn chain vs a new chain. The photos show each end of the chains side by side.
Hi Mick,
I believe the increase in pitch dimension is due to pin and roller wear.
If you hold the chain at 90 degrees to its usual arc axis, the worn chain will "droop" considerably more than the new chain. This will be due to the increased clearance between the pin and its roller/bush.
If you look closely at your worn chain you will note the gap between adjacent link ends is a tad greater than the new chain. If the links of the old chain had stretched the gap between them would not be so great.
Back in the late 70's and early 80's I replaced many noisy Toyota Celica timing chains (the 18R engine was a POS!). These would increase in length about 15mm in only 50K < 60K of use! These chains were good quality DID or RK featuring DH (double hardened) pins and rollers/bushes. The cause of the wear was lack of lubrication.
Sometimes the chain itself contributes to the lubrication issue if the roller/bush / pin design and dimension prevents the formation of a suitable lubricant film.
It is possible the links are elongating, however that would mean they are being stressed beyond their elastic limit. If this is the case the chain is truly a POS! If the link is that soft that is can permanently elongate under the low loads it is subjected to, you should see pins and bushes tearing from them. Is this the case?
Are the new chains of an identical spec to the worn chains with regard to material specification? Does installing a new (higher specification?) chain fix the wear issue for good? Are we increasing oil flow or better directing it to the chain?
Colin
Thanks Colin.
Can't answer material spec question sorry, I don't have that information.
Would have to request it from the manufacturer.
Installing a new chain won't fix the underlying problems you have previously mentioned.
I install a new oil sprayer on each change, the replacement sprayers seem to have a wider/better dispersion than the old ones.
Mick.
What's bad about Selenia?
One indie wont use anything but. Not that I do. I only thought Selenia is expensive.
I install a new oil sprayer on each change, the replacement sprayers seem to have a wider/better dispersion than the old ones.
Hi Mick,
I recall Toyota's solution was similar. They tightened up on the oil sprayer manufacturing tolerances. It was just a plain hole drilled into an metal tube oil line. The tube was cad plated after the hole was drilled and still had metal dags attached to the inside the tube around the hole. it was more luck than good design the oil spray hit the chain!
I had some tiny Delaval nozzles made by a watchmaker. Two of these were silver soldered into the original oil line. The oil flow of the two nozzles was equal to the flow of the single original, so no drop in oil pressure would result.
Colin.
Quote from: As the day goes on September 12, 2016, 11:09:41 AM
What's bad about Selenia?
One indie wont use anything but. Not that I do. I only thought Selenia is expensive.
I don't think there is anything bad about Selenia lubricants. It think the issue is more with Fiat / Alfa Romeo!
The Owners Manual / Service book for my 159 originally "recommended" engine oil changes every 25,000 km. Stickers added to the Owners Manual at some later date "recommend" the oil change intervals be increased to every 35,000 km, yet the oil type and its Fiat specification is no different. The manufacturer (or some influential tosser in their marketing department) figured a medium spec oil will continue to provide suitable protection for another 10,000 km past the initial recommendation!
Selenia now make an oil that may provide this extended service interval, but the Selenia Star specified for the 3.2 JTS back in 2008 would not have been up to it! Selenia is expensive however it is essentially a Fiat / Alfa factory spare part!
Castrol, Mobil and Shell amongst others all produce Fiat Specification 9.55535-* compliant engine oil. An oil compliant with Fiat 9.55535-S2 should be ok for a JTS fitted with an exhaust catalyst.
Well, here's the 43 page thread on ausalfa.com triggered by a desire to avoid Selenia:
http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4278&hilit=Selenia (http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4278&hilit=Selenia)
There is some serious knowledge contained therein.
Bought myself five litres of Penrite 10tenths 5W50 on the weekend just to have some for the TBi. Suspect it'll never get opened. I do recall topping up the JTS with Selenia -- no idea if that was due to the engine or the oil.
Thanks Colin,
I also forgot to mention the new chains make a huge difference to the performance of the engine. It's actually amazing how much power is lost in these Z22SE engines due to the changes in the timing because of the worn chains.
The owners don't usually notice the drop in power because it happens over such a long period, they simply adjust to it. So when they pick the car up after a new chain has been installed, they can't believe how much more power it has!
Mick.
An interesting paper on oil contamination re Direct Injection equipped engines.
Sort of explains why a JTS may dirty the oil up a bit more compared to earlier manifold injection engines. The better torque and power of the JTS is offset a bit by slightly less efficient combustion. Also confirms why its a good idea to regularly change engine oil and filters.
Recently seen a number of Mazda diesel turbo failures. All due to insufficient or non existent service! Voided the new car warranty straight away! The "oil" looked more like tar!