Hi All
Setting up a 105 for targa next year, just finished off the cage, got the seats in and have finished cutting and patching all the dreaded rust, the car's going off to the panel beater on Monday ;D. thought you might like to see some pics.
cheers
Col
Looks like a lot of hard work has gone into it. I wish you all the best for the rest of the project and for targa. Long live the 105.
Regards
Krish
Had a look at my car last night at the panel beater, Still a lot of work to do and time is running out but he says he'll get it done, and the work that he has done so far is good
Great pics Colin - hope she comes together on time...! Does he have a deadline?
I don't know much about Targa rules. What motor are you going to run, how limited are modifications? Saw you asking about factory-option adjustable arms - what suspension mods are you allowed if any?
Deadline is early december!
Rules vary for targa, now run under the cams tarmac rally regulations. I'm building the car to c2 spec, sort of in between standard and fully modified. It allows a lot of engine mods, All internals are free, same with gearbox and diff. So the 2L has got the High comp pistons, crank and rods has been balanced, flywheel balanced and lightened, head has been ported. Vin is putting in new inlet valves and getting some more serious cams and I've got the 45's and extractors to bolt on. Block is done (finished last night) just waiting on the head from Vin.
Suspension is limited, all pickup points must remain standard (so stuck with the poor roll centre location) bush material is free. Suspension arms must be standard, hence the question about the camber arms, but shocks, springs and ARB's are free. And the entire brake system is free, (Except for the use of carbon fibre, but I don't think that will be a problem) So enough mods to keep it interesting!
Looks great Colin - Good luck with it. You know the car would more than likely be eligible for Group S as well - might be worth getting a red historic log book for the car!!
Gives you the option of running some Historic events as well. Would love to see it at Phillip Island or Sandown.
I downloaded the new CAMS Tarmac Rally regs a little while ago and they seem to run almost parallel with the Group S regs, I am thinking of running a couple of rallys with mine when I recover from the cost of building it :D
Another benefit of building a car to these regs - it means you have a whole other sphere of events open to you.
Don't you need roof lining and carpet for group s ? Cos i wasn't planning on putting that back in. Also are there any options for rim size or must it be satandard?
Guys if you are looking at building cars for both tarmac rallies and group S make sure your ROPS (roll bars ) compile with both requirments. Tarmac rally ROPS require more protection around the crew as racing cars don't hit trees all that often. I am sure Scott can steer you in the right direction.
Targa Tassie requires a FIA spec cage which is not neccessary for Grp S (you can currently run a half cage in grp s if you really want to) Make sure, if the cage is in mild steel, it must be in CDS not CDW and must have bolts where the cage attaches to the body (funny FIA regs). FIA means double diagonal in the main hoop, roof bars and side intrusion plus a couple of other things that require diagrams to explain. I would recommend double side intrusion as this is the worst and likely type of impact. I would also extend from the front of the side intrusion to the firewall behind the front wheel as well.
Wheels for group S must be standard size ie 14 x 6. You could just have a set of these just for Grp S. Don't need carpet but I am not sure about headlining - I am not running it unless I get told to.
Would be cool to see you at say the Phillip Island Classic as well as Targa.
Quote from: Krishnan Pasupathi on August 22, 2006, 09:43:22 PM
Looks like a lot of hard work has gone into it. I wish you all the best for the rest of the project and for targa. Long live the 105.
Regards
Krish
and to think that this same shell almost got cut in half !
Colin, just looking at your pics again, if you are doing Targa Tassie, as I said a couple of posts back, the cage must be FIA spec as Targa Tassie is an FIA event. It doesn't matter for any other events just Targa Tassie. What that means is "FIA means double diagonal in the main hoop, roof bars and side intrusion plus a couple of other things that require diagrams to explain." Your bracing in the backstays (if that is all that is going in) is not sufficient. The double diagonal must be in the main hoop. Intrusion bars are ok and you must have roof bracing as per one of the FIA prescribed roof bracing designs.
Note steel cages must be bolted in. This is an oft misunderstood part of the regs. You can of course weld the whole thing together so it can't come out but atm it must attach to the body at the 6 main points (hoop, front legs and backstays) by bolts as per the FIA specs.
I would recommend double side intrusion as this is the worst and likely type of impact. I would also extend from the front of the side intrusion to the firewall behind the front wheel as well. Don't skimp on the cage as tarmac events are much more dangerous than circuit racing.(trees, cliffs, ditches etc)
here is an excert from the targa rules
302.4 Rollover protection
302.4.1 INTERNATIONAL VEHICLES Vehicles which are not resident in Australia, and which are subject to a Log Book issued by an ASN other than CAMS must have a Roll Over Protection Structure (ROPS) complying with Article 253 of Appendix J to the to the FIA International Sporting Code.
302.4.4 CAMS LOGBOOKS ISSUED POST 1 JANUARY 2000 Cars subject to log books issued after 1st January 2000 must be fitted with a Rollover Protection Structure (ROPS) in compliance with Schedule J with the minimum type as follows; • If a closed car – a full cage. • If an open car – a half cage, although a full roll cage is preferred. The ROPS shall be either: • Registered with CAMS and carry a valid ROPS registration label, or • Subject of a CAMS ROPS homologation.
So the way I read it is if you are an international competitor your correct scott, you do need a cage that conforms with the FIA Spec, however if you are not and the car is log booked by cams you only need a full cage that conforms to schedule J, which my cage does. I did think about a double side intrusion bar but was worried about it causing access problems getting in and out. While extra bars would improve the torsional rigidity of the chassis somewhat how much does an extra bar reduce deceleration in a crash thereby reducing injury?. I don't believe I skimped on the cage I added an extra diagonal at the rear and spent a long time fitting the bars as close to the body as possible so that I could pin it together at various points. I appreciate you comments it's a difficult one to know when to stop adding bars! Scott what do you extend the front of the side intrusion bars to? I looked at adding these but couldn't find any point to pin it to and didn't want it to break away in an accident and spear me in the leg! And you'll defiantly see the car at the island in one form or another!
g'day folks,
Just thought I'd chuck my 2 bob's worth in. Colin's comments line up with my experience in two Targas (one with Colin) in my 105. With a CAMS logbooked car you definitely only need to meet the manual's requirements and not the FIA spec. So welded in and no cross bracing of the main hoop or roof is ok. I agree that side intrusion is important and you certainly want max protection. Any full cage that meets the requirements for group S will be accepted for Targa.
By by the way Scott, I really appreciate your support for Group S in the club. My car is logbooked for it but as yet I haven't taken the plunge and entered for any races. Happy to have the pressure put on me! In 'S' form the 105 is quite ok for Targa and we came in at about the middle of the classic field on handicap both times.We are both entered in Targa for 2007 and Colin is going closer to the limit of what Tarmac Rally Regs class C2 allow than an 'S' modified car can get. but I reckon it won't cover the skill gap (joke colin).
See you at PI in December
Paul B
Thanks for that clarification of the Targa rules - I don't think this was the case a few years back as we had a number of local competitors telling us of having to drill the mounting points and put in some bolts after scrutineering to comply with FIA specs!!
As far as extending the intrusion bar - we plate up the fire wall and the lower part of where the A pillar meets the firewall and simply run the intrusion bar through to this point - we havedone this on a number of Historic and Modern cars including the Brock FX Holden that went to Goodwood mid year. Helps stopping a whhel coming too far back into the cabin.
And as for Grp S - yes Paul com'on get into it - Phillip Island Classic in March 07?? Yes!
Scott is right up till the adoption of the standard Tramac rally rule which are in the phase in stage now every year there was at least 10 crews running around at scrutting trying to find drills and high grade bolts to make there weldin cage FIA boltin this happen so often that some regulars used to take the gear and bolts down to help then out every year.
That's interesting, because that rule exert I posted comes from the targa regulations so perhaps they added that in to line up with the tarmac rally regulations when they released them? Couple of photo's from the weekends work, can't wait to get that car back from the PB and start bolting some of this stuff in
I am pretty sure that the roll cage change started this year with the adoption of the std tarmac rules. We weren't even sure it was ok for this year.
Engine looks good.
Hi all,
Got the car back from the pb before chrissy and have spent a bit of time on it. First I had to take all the suspension that was on it so it could be rolled around off and clean it all up. then had to paint the floor with a thin coating of sound deadener, to seal it from moisture more than anything. Got the side glass in and the passenger door is now complete, I have however run into a bit of a problem with the drivers door, I had got a new one cos the old ones where in such bad nick and didn't check it closely, turns out it's from a step nose coupe and doesn't use the cable set up for the window winders, so I need to find one of the arm type mechanisims, any one got one lying around?. The steering box, idler arm, pedals fuel tank headlights and tail lights all went in pretty easy. The dashboard had a bit of a fight with the roll cage but that's all sorted now. Anyway got the rear end in today and putting the engine in tomorrow and possably the front suspension so it's all coming along well.
Cheers
Hubba hubba!!
Yeah Baby. Looks great.
Had a big couple of days and got a fair bit done, engine and driveline is in, front suspension is back on minus the spring pans as they had so much rust in them I'm surprised they could hold the standard springs in!. Mounted the battery, mounted the oil cooler,made the centre console for switches and gauges and have nearly finished running all the new fixed brake and clutch lines. I'll Start the new loom soon and should get the front discs and wheels soon. Hope to have it driving by the end of Jan, unfortunately have to go back to work on Monday (so I can pay for all this) which will slow me down a bit.
Finsihed the new loom, got the engine started on monday and put it on it's new wheels last night, so it's all comming togeather. I;ve got to go to sweden for work so the car is haveing a five week break but targa is comming up quick!
Absolutely awesome Colin :o when might we see it in the flesh? On the EMR perhaps?
Ed
o can tell you it looks better in flesh!
it is gorgeous !
brilliant effort Col !
Gee, looks good - you know the Alfa Club is about to have quite a few new (and spectacular) race cars join its ranks. Just think how many new cars are underway at the moment. And most are being built to the highest standard. It really is a bit of a renaissance, particularly in the 2 litre arena.
Sigh - wish the Targa Tassie coverage on tv wasn't so pitiful. Will have to arrange a trip down one year to watch - maybe I can get a ride as pit crew for my bosses E-Type :P
Thanks guys, I won't be around for the EMR but the car will defiantly become a permanent fixture at our club track days. Unfortunately we don't have anything in march so I'm going to have to find some other way of getting it to a track, does Winton still do open practice on Fridays?
Yeah Winton does and i am trying to verify if Sandown does too.
There is an MSCA Sandown event the same day as our AROCA Winton sprint in march, the week before Historic P.I.
Practice dates for Winton.
http://www.wintonmotorraceway.com.au/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=51
Practice dates for Calder.
http://www.motorsport.com.au/events.htm
To my knowledge, Sandown does not do practice days.
Methinks my new acquisition - red 77GTV will now remain set up to comply with tarmac rally and Group S rules so i can get the most out of it.
The new plan includes Historic P.I & Sandown regularity with club sprints added in and 1 or 2 "local" tarmac rallies like those held by the HRA. all subject to the hip pocket nerve of course ;D
The car is already set up for tarmac rallies and is logbooked accordingly. And at this stage i dont need to spend a cent on it other than a check up and perhaps a donk freshen up.
Somehwere in my new hectic life i need to accomodate my wife and my beloved Richmond Tigers ;)
Gee, i'm excited...think i'll start a new thread on my new car. ::)
Richmond hey....I think you'd best stick with the car. Hope you are happy with our cast off in Kingsley. What a power forward line, Kingsley and Richo - Richmond scores will now look like this - 2 Goals, 34 behinds and 22 out on the full.....
Perhaps the title for the new thread should be "116 for next years targa" ?. Sounds like a good idea, what are these "local" tarmac rallies you talk about? Also I noticed the new one doesn't have any roof lining, what else do you need to do to it for Group S?
QuoteAnd at this stage i dont need to spend a sent on it other than a check up and perhaps a donk freshen up.
Come on it's a race car!
Something along those lines Colin. :P
The HRA runs a nav rally competition and an touring competition that are single day or overnight and cost VERY little, often include a meal and can be done on a 2S licence.
Might be an easy introduction and shake down of both crew and vehicle.
Then maybe Dutton series and grand prix rally in 08.
Dunno what's on the "to do" list until i pick the car up and take it to Bruno's friday arvo but the spend on it in 07 will be the bare minimum on the bare essentials unfortunately. Need to check out tarmac rally rules re - wheel size and minimum level of civilian registration.
Hey all
Finally got back from Sweden on Saturday night, been driving cars around on a big frozen lake for 5 weeks for work!. I left the car (and apparently my back account details) with my navigator how has been working on since I left, he's a bit of a suspension guru and has decided to make all the spring platforms adjustable. The rears are only tacked in at present but he's done a nice job. Just got to finish off brake pushrod to the new adjustable pedal box tonight and that's really the last big job, so should be driving on the weekend (luckily it's a long one). We've also put the car on scales and with the nearly all the gear in it, it comes to 940 kg!, pretty happy about that.
cheers
Looks awsome Colin! I can't wait to see it in the flesh ;D
Can't wait to see this in the flesh. Might even book a trip to Taassie for next years Targa just to see it in action (and take notes) ;)
You could always take it for a drive to P.I. on the weekend, park in the Alfa display section along the main straight and watch 522 cars compete at this years historic meeting :o
Keep up the updates
Couple of photo's of the new duel master system pedal box, bled all the new hydraulic lines all bled up nicely. Engine is running nicely and starting really well. Have driven it around the workshop and are planning to set up toe, camber, ride height ect on Wednesday night so should be able to stretch it's legs on the weekend, we're planning on doing a winton open practice on the 30th so if anyone else is keen for a run let me know, or if anyone knows of any other events between now and Easter let us known.
cheers
Calder is running an open practice day on the 28th March. This might be a good reasonably local shakedown before heading to Winton on the 30th :-\
Targa is just 'round the corner. Are you all ready to go Colin?
If you can find internet access along the way keep us updated with a small post from time to time.
Best of luck mate. Wish I was over there with you!
My Dad will be over there so i will get him to watch out for you and report back. Waht will your number be?
Good luck Colin!
Hi Guys
Yes we've made it here, both cars have been through scrutineering and have completed the prologue with minimum of hassles!
There was a bit of a rush to get my car done, log booked, tested at Winton and through pre-event scrutiny but it all fell into place, even with having to replace the rear main seal twice!!. The car has been pretty good so far. We had a small issue when the two halves of one of the rear callipers decided they didn't want to be friends anymore and separated enough to leak fluid everywhere. Of course this happened on the way to our 8:36am scrutineering time slot, but a quick bit of road side surgery and we where ready to go.
We ran the prologue today with both cars finishing well car 523 (my dads) ran a 4:03:00 and car 521 (mine) ran a 3:58:00 so the battle has begun. The prologue determines starting order and does not have any impact on your overall position so it will be an interesting day tomorrow with the first set of true targa stages. There is another 2000 GTV, a spider, a Gulia supper, a Montreal and quite a few 116's running which is great, and looks like we are both at the pointy end of the alfa's, but I havn't had a good look at all the results yet.
I'll try and get a few more photos up and give updates when I get a chance
They look fantastic Colin, and both cars are obviously going pretty damn good too ;D Father and son doing Targa in like cars, this will make for a great article in the club mag!!
I just counted 'em. 11 Alfa's in the field this year!
Keep the updates coming.....
Wow! They look great. Good luck to both of you - a sensational effort!
Yes best of luck Colin..makes me feel like pestering dad to dust off our red 105 and make it three red ones next year!!!!
Dont talk about Simon....do it....I'll get into his ear too, I fancy a trip to Tassie as crew ;)
Absolutely!!
Gordon (my Dad) is on his way over tomorrow to follow the event. Have asked him to keep a watchfull eye on the Byrnes' and of course all other Alfas.
At the end of Day 1 Colin is in 64th outright and 62nd in handicap, The Charges in the Monty are 74th and 64th
Colin and his Dad survived and excelled. Colin finished 48th and his father 57th with 110 starters. NICE!!! :o
Only 1 drama - Colin's dads fuel tank had to be replaced due to dramas.
Congrats to you both. Better driving than Mr. Bana ;D
Have some photos but saving them for the next mag.
Yes both crews made it home (and have recovered from Sunday night). Apart from a few stone chips all is well with both cars, and we returned with 4 Targa trophies. Anyway thought we might write something for the mag so I'll keep this short, here's a couple of the photo's, I'm of to have a beer!
** Bump **
For those who were at Bell's last night, this is Colin's car and photo's.
Looks good huh!!