So, in an effort to not do the job twice I'm throwing out there what can be done to improve things with regards to mechanical items on the early 105 GT GTV. As things are moving towards the TS conversion I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I found out only recently that the pedals in early cars (with cable clutch) are different to those in later models (with hydraulic clutch) so replacing those is a must if you're headed down the hydraulic route - unless you love one leg workouts. (thanks to Dave and Scott)
Other improvements bandied about are the later bellhousings with screw in reverse switch to prevent oil leaks (Thanks TonyR)
Converting bellohousing studs for threadserts and bolts (thanks Scott)
What other non obvious swaps/conversions/upgrades can be done to improve the breed similar to the list above?
I know Colin Byrne has an excellent little bracket that the brake cylinders attach to under the car that reduce their tendency to flex in hard brake applications.
Double row rear wheel bearings.
Without wanting to sound like a dickhead, why try and invent the wheel Pancho. Surely a ph call or email to Max Banks or even a peruse of both the stuff they have let alone a read of his story of the build of his GTA-R will tell you plenty.
What am I missing ??
So gents, after talking casually the other night - why exactly is the 2 litre 105 gearbox better than the earlier ones ? larger more reliable bearings ? better design in certain areas ?
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=6556.0 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=6556.0)
kthxbye ;)
Excuse me while I tread on some likely well trodden ground, but what's the consensus on the best thing to do with the driveshaft on an early car TS conversion with 160+ hp.
Patrick I've just been re reading the driveshaft bit in your thread and you've gone with a 2ltr driveshaft with the later support bearing yeah? Was there a reason to go with the full 2ltr shaft, is it stronger or is it just a case of the later support bearing not locating and/or fitting onto the 1600 shaft?
Are the early pillow block supports too floppy to cope with the extra juice?
And what about the guibo, I was planning on replacing mine with a high quality after market version but it seems getting rid of it completely might be the best way to go. I'm blowing AH's horn again but that's what they do with their Race Propshaft Conversion...is this overkill for 'fast road' TS conversion?
Anybody here performed or know if this modification is a good one to do? Looks like a good new age way to stop replacing bushes - could be much smoother too.
(http://www.spruellmotorsport.com/images/STEERING%20BOX%20NEW%20(2).jpg)
Dave, if you're chasing power then I'd say that from what I've read you'd be best off replacing the early drive shaft with a later one. This is what I will be doing, but not going down the AH route yet, god knows I have money to spend elsewhere and I have a complete NOS 2 litre driveshaft and associated parts already.
Quote from: pancho on September 19, 2013, 10:41:58 AM
Anybody here performed or know if this modification is a good one to do? Looks like a good new age way to stop replacing bushes - could be much smoother too.
(http://www.spruellmotorsport.com/images/STEERING%20BOX%20NEW%20(2).jpg)
Dave, if you're chasing power then I'd say that from what I've read you'd be best off replacing the early drive shaft with a later one. This is what I will be doing, but not going down the AH route yet, god knows I have money to spend elsewhere and I have a complete NOS 2 litre driveshaft and associated parts already.
i'm not sure but this may be of a "better mousetrap" variety ....
not unlike some AH improvements that seem to "fix" problems that did not exist in the first place and often are actually worse than the original solution provided by alfa ....
Quote from: Branko Turk on September 19, 2013, 12:04:09 PM
.. problems that did not exist in the first place and often are actually worse than the original solution provided by alfa ....
So ... Alfa's original solution to a problem that didn't exist in the first place is better than the AH one ?
Quote from: AikenDrum105 on September 19, 2013, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: Branko Turk on September 19, 2013, 12:04:09 PM
.. problems that did not exist in the first place and often are actually worse than the original solution provided by alfa ....
So ... Alfa's original solution to a problem that didn't exist in the first place is better than the AH one ?
Sounds like a known unknown to me :o
Quote from: AikenDrum105 on September 19, 2013, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: Branko Turk on September 19, 2013, 12:04:09 PM
.. problems that did not exist in the first place and often are actually worse than the original solution provided by alfa ....
So ... Alfa's original solution to a problem that didn't exist in the first place is better than the AH one ?
very funny, i can see how you can intentionally misinterpret what i was trying to say ..
In case you weren't trying to be funny, i should explain that i used term "solution" where i should have said "design" or "engineering outcome". I am sorry about the confusion, too much IT jargon in my world, and in IT everything is a "solution".
I intentionally interpreted it the way it read. I apologise if I made a grand sweeping generalisation.
;D
With respect to the idler, Alfa provided a plain bearing which is correct for the speed and load of the idler shaft. They just forgot the grease nipple.
A pusher Thermo fan frees up a couple of hundred watts but more importantly with the stock fan shrowd removed you can access the crank pully with a socket
Quote from: Divano Veloce on September 20, 2013, 08:03:51 PM
A pusher Thermo fan frees up a couple of hundred watts but more importantly with the stock fan shrowd removed you can access the crank pully with a socket
+1
Apparently the 105 chassis was strengthened around the engine crossmember with the introduction of the 1750 (and could probably do with even more strengthening). Reinforcing the rear to prevent kinked arches is a must. If I had another go at a coupe I'd do away with the std door handles and use replica gta handles instead. The std handles will eventually damage the doorskin as they are stiff and poorly attached.
Relays on high current loads
The kinking of the rear arches is an interesting one, I'd never heard of it before until I went to look at a 64 Sprint GT, really nice car but it did have these little bulges/creases in the rear arches, which kind of ruined the lines and made me wonder how much it would cost to fix them properly.
Apparently the rear can be damaged like this just by having a heavy boot load of stuff and going over a nasty bump.
Anyone have examples of how to strengthen the back end to prevent this?
good points made gents.
I haven't seen anyone really do anything super special to the rear of the cars for rear body stiffness - so I'd be interested to see somethign that might help. The boot floor is only spot welded to the rear apron and also the inner wheel arches and rear bulkhead - not the guards themelves. I've had some work done at the 'rails to boot floor' area with some stitch welds - though this won't help the boot floor much. If you take into consideration the limited welded support areas and thin metal - the fuel tank would be ~40kg plus the spare wheel ~5kg and preseto stick siomething in there and hit a big bump - pootang! creases......
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4ydd7COhnyM/UUUhCKBZn7I/AAAAAAAAAU8/5zM3YJDDOIg/w600-h450-no/IMG_8169-600.jpg)
Door skins can have a metal plate chemically bonded/attached to the inside to provide a more solid fixing point. Invisible fix.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-S-JKBGHf1ww/UfXhRw8_LTI/AAAAAAAABLg/Fnanbw-iQQ0/w800-h600-no/IMG_9817-800.jpg)
QuoteI haven't seen anyone really do anything super special to the rear of the cars for rear body stiffness - so I'd be interested to see somethign that might help
We can all get a little bit precious about the rear wheel arch bending through not being stiffened, but my personal experience was they were still a reasonably tough little car that could do just about anything I just found this old photo of my 105 GTV circa 1976. I use to do a lot of catamaran sailing back then with the Alfa as the tow car . The Alfa towed the boat to South Australia a couple of times and up to Sydney with no problems . I also had a mate that had a Austin bugeye sprite as a tow vehicle for his catamaran. Unfortunately aerodynamics took over at about 50 mph. But that's another story. ( Those were the days )
Gully
Vin Sharp at Pace Engineering makes a set of fairly unobtrusive strengtheners that are bolted up under the rear arches. From memory about $150 the pair (a few years ago) and simple to fit.
If you're an absolute stickler for the car being original then it might not be the solution for you - then again if you were, this is probably not the thread you'd be reading!
My understanding is that it is the later cars without the deeper arches that usually have the problems but its probably not such a bad bit of insurance in any case for any 105 coupe - the creases in the rear guards are a right pain to get rid of properly.
Quote...I use to do a lot of catamaran sailing back then with the Alfa as the tow car . The Alfa towed the boat to South Australia a couple of times and up to Sydney with no problem...
Perhaps that's the answer...towing a boat...pulls out the creases!
Good one DaveT, Your probably more right than wrong!! I will mention here.....installing grease nipples on lower wishbone sealed bushes. Good idea? or not! If this post gets to air, (problem with sending) I will explain more...................................W.T.S.
O.K.! It works, now that I have your attention,What I have suggested has been done to quite a few Alfa's over the years, mine included. Is it a good idea? Well, In my case the car was modded in this fashion some years ago by a well known Alfa service centre. They had drilled through from the bottom of the lower wishbone and through the casing of the sealed bush and then tapped the hole for a grease nipple. I decided to renew the bushes as a matter of course as logical thinking sez they are 40 years old so renew 'em. on removing the "old" bushes, one finds that they were not as stuffed as first thought and could well have been left in place but, they were not in good condition because of the grease service point. Inspection showed that three of the holes had not been completely drilled through to the joint itself so NO grease ever got to them! The forth hole had been drilled and lube had reached it but so had the drilling swarf that then caused the very problem that was trying to be erased by the insertion of the G/nipple! So, I guess the reason for the extra grease is to eliminate wear. Good idea, so I drilled and tapped the steel rounded end caps that cover the fixing nuts and fitted right angle G/nipples. I am not expecting to give these a regular squirt of grease, rather , i would think a light top up with the g/ gun about every 20000K. There! now you have another reason to grease the wishbone bushes as well as the nipple you put on the steering idler box. You did fit one there .......Right???? And a P.S. Is this one of the mods suggested by Branko that was thought of to cure a non existent problem that needed to be fixed ,"just in case"? And,yes indeed, I do like the ball race conversion on the steering idler shaft! I am seriously thinking of that one. But mine is far from stuffed at the moment.................................................
At the expense of a little more weight, you could have some side-intrustion protection added to the doors... I'm fairly sure the 2000 GTVs had a rippled panel welded in there for this. I've seen a pair of tubular bars welded in (and keyed to the door jamb ) as well... there's a bit of room in there between the glass and the outer skin anyway.
Quote from: pancho on September 23, 2013, 02:59:35 PM
good points made gents.
I haven't seen anyone really do anything super special to the rear of the cars for rear body stiffness - so I'd be interested to see somethign that might help. The boot floor is only spot welded to the rear apron and also the inner wheel arches and rear bulkhead - not the guards themelves. I've had some work done at the 'rails to boot floor' area with some stitch welds - though this won't help the boot floor much. If you take into consideration the limited welded support areas and thin metal - the fuel tank would be ~40kg plus the spare wheel ~5kg and preseto stick siomething in there and hit a big bump - pootang! creases......
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4ydd7COhnyM/UUUhCKBZn7I/AAAAAAAAAU8/5zM3YJDDOIg/w600-h450-no/IMG_8169-600.jpg)
Door skins can have a metal plate chemically bonded/attached to the inside to provide a more solid fixing point. Invisible fix.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-S-JKBGHf1ww/UfXhRw8_LTI/AAAAAAAABLg/Fnanbw-iQQ0/w800-h600-no/IMG_9817-800.jpg)
Too true re the relative weakness of the rear end of the 105 coupe but I was always under the impression that in fact this was a deliberate engineering design intention, that being it represented a crumple zone to protect the cabin and occupants in the risk of a major rear end. Alfa being ahead of the game in this respect. But of course it does mean that the rear arch is liable relatively easily to suffering the dreaded kink in the panel.
Therefore to try to engineer in additional stiffness into the rear of the coupe similarly would be a mistake as it would defeat the very purpose intended.
I could be wrong in my understanding ??
Quote from: Davidm1750 on September 27, 2013, 04:18:02 PM
I could be wrong in my understanding ??
If the intention was to gently crumple you up nice and cozy with the fuel tank - then no... ;)
There's no doubt the 105 coupe has crumple zones.... how deliberately they were engineered is the carborundrum. (a really hard conundrum..)
I've been reading a fair bit lately on the alfabb about the Burman steering boxes cracking and one or two instances of them breaking open. I assume this problem isn't isolated to LHD steering boxes?
Does anyone make a modification to the RHD boxes to address this problem?
LHD Montreals suffered from Burman steering box problems as you describe, RHD did not as the steering box was a ZF. I don't know if this is the case with RHD 105's (which the Montreal basically was!) Someone out there (who is more 'with it' than I am) can answer that one!..........................................I just realized, this is my 105................th post!
Further research delving into various books and Autobook W/S manuals explains that 105s were fitted with Burman and ZF steering boxes in both LHD and RHD forms. No specific years or models were identified however a Owners Handbook i have for a '74 2000 GT states that the model could have been fitted with either steering box, depending one assumes, on what the Factory had on hand at the time. Browsing my edition of the Montreal. The Essential Companion. (www.velocebooks.com) tells that Burman steering boxes fitted to LHD cars were made using an inferior grade of aluminium in the s/box casting that would crack at the mounting lugs and split in the casing itself when stressed during cornering forces. The use of wide sticky tyres was partially blamed for the problem.
I'd say that LHD and RHD boxes would likely be made by the same company at the same time - why the LHD units crack more could just be a volume game perhaps. I've not found anything concrete out there online. Is your book a US publication?
This thread though is geared towards early 105 GT models - whilst Montreals are very nice they should have their own thread.
Pancho, you are missing the point of my posts. In your very first paragraph of this thread you have asked for "mechanical upgrades" for 105 GTs. The Montreal IS a 105, AND a GT. Deep down inside and V8 and ancilleries aside, the suspension and steering components are much the same except (and I tried to make the difference clear) the LHD S/box for the Montreal is a special unit made especially for the car and DOES NOT fit any other 105 series car. DaveT's concern in his question was if the steering box cracking problem was likely to occur in a RHD 105 car and was there a remedy available (modification). The answer is no! in both cases,it matters not which make of s/box is fitted. I have neither seen nor heard of any steering box issues regarding 105 Gt's or any other lesser versions. I'm sure the racing guys would have discovered something by now, had there been any. I feel that ANY information should be spread ASAP if it concerns the safe operation of cars of the type we are familiar with no matter if the thread goes (slightly) off the desired path. You ask if my Montreal book is a U.S. production!. No, it is published by Veloce Publications in the UK, I had put the Web address in my last missive for those who may have an interest in getting a copy. A Montreal thread! good idea. Who's going to start it? .......................................Cheers.
http://www.alfaholics.com/2013/10/alfaholics-billet-aluminium-steering-box-casing-–-rhd-burman-type-2/
I thought the (anecdotal?) evidence pointed to issues with the LHD castings only. Is the RHD burman box prone cracking ? Anybody know of one ?
I wonder how long AH warrant theirs.. For expected life (50yrs) or 12mths.
For mine it's made of the same material just stuck on the opposite side of the car. Less RHD cars, less failures.
And this is an early 105 GT thread - in case anyone actually read the original post.
I have never heard of a RHD Burman S/box ever having the problem as stated by AH. As they have gone to the expense of producing new housings for the RHD units, it seems that 105 series owners maybe driving cars in a potentialy dangerous condition. Anybody else ever found their S/box to be suspect?......Do tell!
Given that Pancho started this thread and reminded all that it is about early GTs, that flavours the discussion somewhat.
However, just briefly in answer to your query McAnnik, my 1750 GTV's steering has always felt perfect, while the box on my 2L Berlina, definitely could have done with a rebuild, though whether or not it was dangerous is perhaps a debatable point ??
Here's a thread on Alfabb with a cracked RHD box:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/suspension-brakes-wheels-tires/152689-burman-box-rebuild-15.html
Hi Interesting nearly 20 years ago I went to a concrete plant in Noosaville to remove the steering box from a 2000 berlina sitting on bricks ,the owner I think worked there he answered my ad for the bits to convert my lhd spider (still sitting on a dolly) Imagine after lying in the dirt for a couple of hours and getting home to find later that the box was cracked(not something the vendor would have known) covered in grease etc Probably still have it somewhere incidentally I have a 1750 mk2 carcass that has a steer box with the pivot for the giulia h/brake still on it perhaps fitted to replace a cracked one. John
I stand corrected! It seems Burman S/boxes 'DO' have failure problems. As suggested by DaveT, I read the whole thread on AlfaBB. Very scary stuff! The repair methods as described are sound though! Worth reading............... Exit, stage left, McAnnik...............
I'm not pinching your thread here Pancho! I have an improvement to 105 door hinge lubrication (all models).......(in fact, a cure for the lack of lube to your door hinges). There have been many suggestions put forward on other forums but this one is simple and can be done without any dismantling. get your trusty Bunnings el cheapo electric or battery drill and bore a 1/8 in (0.125) hole in the uppermost portion of the CENTRAL part of each door hinge until you have reached the hinge pin itself. You should know when you have reached that point by feel alone. Get your mate to do this if you think you cannot do this part of the operation. After drilling that hole in each hinge, countersink the hole with about a 1/4 drill, it will not need much!. Job done, lubricate occasionly with oil can or a squeeze bottle of sewing machine oil. If your hinges are stuffed and your doors have dropped then you wiil need to rebush the hinges with kits that are available or machine your own to suit to take up the slop. The hinges are only Aluminium and were probably not expected to last beyond 10 years let alone the 40 that we are asking them to do! If your doors have dropped, they can be jacked up by adding some packing washers behind the lower hinge. This , I might add is not a cure for stuffed hinges, it merely allows you to close the doors easily until you do the total repair. (eventually!!!).........................................Cheers.
I didn't photograph the box before repair but mine was cracked around 3 of the 4 threaded holes.