Running my ex 6 time Targa winning Sud at Baskerville Hill Climb and it konked out idling down the back straight after it's and my first together. It restarted then slowed in idle and stopped again. All checks were performed and the chap diagnosing said it had sheared the Crank Keyway. He being a Mechanic and me not, I took his word for it and packed up. Not ultimately impressed at my disaster of a first day I let the car sit a week then I started getting things undone for engine out rebuild etc etc. Out of curiosity I decided to remove the Timing Belt Covers and Crank Pulley for closer inspection. I found no Steel Filings. In fact the entire area was clean as. So I went deeper. Checked for a broken Crank but everything was fine. Flywheel was turning with the cam gears and Dizzy etc. Removed the Rocker Covers and looked for bent Valves but all looked really good. So I almost had everything off when I decided to put it all back together and checked for Spark, Fuel and Compression. Whilst I didn't actually use a Compression Gauge I held my fat Middle Finger down the plug holes and all were pumping well.
Spark was big and fat, blue crimson colour (very healthy looking). Idf Webers were pumping fuel too. It back fired (out Exhaust) in the first few seconds in the Shed and I thought that's more than it did at the Track, then it went into a cranking over mode where it just turns over normally and sounds normal in it's cranking too. I did try pouring a bit of fuel down carbys but there was absolutely no change in anything. :([youtube]
So any idea's???? I've spent all weekend on this car and while I'm not pissed off I'm extremely puzzled.
Check your cam belt timing, it may have jumped a cog, so that the valves don't hit the pistons, but its not timed right and also check the distributor timing as well, it could have lost the dowell that holds the slotted drive in.
Give it a proper compression test with a tester, to make sure, a compression test can show up all sorts of problems, Colin.
I bought a Compression Tester today after Work. Rushed home. Ready for this?? Cylinder #1 0psi Cylinder #2 0psi Cylinder #3 32psi Cylinder #4 0psi. And yep the next thing I will try is to check the Valve Timing. Not sure how to do this so I will read my Haynes Manual and educate myself. Thanks for your help colcol, I'm sure this is not over yet......... One more thing, under what conditions would an engine jump Timing? In my mind I'm narrowing down when this happened at Baskerville.
My mate up the road has a SUD, and it skipped a cog at the lights, and the engine stalled, and it was hard to start, ANOTHER twin carb SUD appeared and told him to trailer it to Ill Bolide Rossi in Thornbury and it hadn't bent the valves, so it just needed new belts and tensioners.
It was most likely, because it was a 1700 with more piston to valves clearance with lower compression than a 1500.
They can skip a cog with old belts and tensioners, leaking water pump and cam and crank seals, that lubricate and ruin the belts.
Compression tests tells all, mine had zero compression in all cylinders, because all the valves were bent, due to......Broken crankshaft, Colin.
Ok, well the Valve Timing is about 6 teeth off so I'm swapping this engine out for my 09 engine for the rest of the 2016 Hill Climb season. Just have to install some new Belts and install the idf's on the old engine and tune it all up.
The previous Owner had installed some new Belts on the engine that jumped Timing but he didn't check the Tensioners. So I'm up for a total rebuild as it's taken out a few Valves and at least a piston the engineers down the road say.
Thanks again for your guidance Col. Much appreciated. Scotty
There is not a lot of info about the correct tensioning of the pulleys, apart from they should be replaced along with the belts, or at least taken out and checked for wear, roughness, grease leaking out etc, when the pulleys are tensioned, the valves on that bank have to be closed and no followers touching the camshafts, to allow the belt to rock back and forth to find its centre.
If the belt is tensioned up with the cam followers touching the cam, then the belt is unable to centre itself, and the tension will be incorrect, and could be too loose and jump a cog.
If the tensioners are worn, then the belt will tend to run at a bit of an angle, as the tensioner has slop in the bearing.
Worse case will be the tensioner will seize up and rub the belt to pieces.
Tensioners and belts still easily available for Suds and 33's, Colin.
Col you are the man! I've got the Belts off again and have closely examined everything that came off and compared with my Haynes Manual etc etc. The first is the belts have a shiny worn spot which I figured is where the engine jumped Timing. The second thing I found was the left side Tensioner Bearing sounds like a tin can when spun. I've had enough Street Luge Bearings go South to know a stuffed bearing when I hear it. This is where it gets real interesting. I thought, what I'll do is re-time the engine and do another compression test. Hmmm, the Valve Timing Marks in either Bank won't line up when the Lobes aren't touching anything. Now according to Haynes (which I re-read many times before reading your post Col) that is the way I'm to do it. Get #1 on TDC (both belts are off) (and the Dizzy is pointing at #1), line the Cam Marks up with the Mark on the Bearing Journal. Trouble is to get the Marks to line up one of the Lobes has pressure against the Valve Spring and simply turns round to the point where nothing touch's a Lobe. So, am I supposed to hold each Cam against the Spring pressure? Because it Haynes says 'line the marks up with the Lobes touching nothing.......... Also the Cams are Solid Billets, not Split I noticed and the wear on the left bank Cam Lobes is more obvious than the opposite side and when I rock the Cam back and forth with no load and with a spanner under load I can feel a roughness. It's no where as smooth as the right bank. Not sure if that's got something to do with it? What to do what to do :-\ :-\
Col, I read a Post elsewhere with a VW and they lined the TDC up with a TDC Guage and they found the Belt Timing half a tooth out on one side and two teeth out on the other. I see TotallyAlfa.com have a TDC Guage, perhaps I should purchase one? Also my Flywheel has a drill hole with a painted Pointer and a painted Line marked on the Flywheel with two other Lines within a couple of mm of each other further around the Wheel. AHM have an Alloy Water Pump and Crank Pulley set available but no specs on the Grade or toughness of the Alloy. I'd like to purchase and fit an Adjustable Hard Anodized Cam Set but haven't found any on the Net. Plenty for the 33 but none for the Sud. I will also obtain an Extreme CM 1.5kg Flywheel with their Button Cushion Clutch. Why go after this gear I hear you ask? I proved to myself and others by doing one thing at a time with my last Hill Climb car (a Proton Satria GTi) that I'm definitely quicker up the Hill, a full 2.4+ seconds.
When timing the belts, on the boxer motors that i have had, you have the number 1 piston at top dead centre, you can use a long screwdriver a piece of welding wire or a top dead centre gauge, it doesn't matter, when the thing you inserted in the spark plug hole stops moving up, its top dead centre, also there will be a mark on the flywheel as well, indicating top, then look at your rotor button on the distributor and it should be pointing towards number 1 spark plug.
Now this where it gets tricky, timing the cams, there is a straight mark on the cam, which should line up to a mark cast in the camshaft housing, this is not that accurate, unless you have properly timed the cams with offset bushes, then the lines will almost line up, it may be slightly left or right of the mark, but get it one tooth out and it will really show up.
Get this all done before you tension up the belt pulleys, Colin.
Thats what I have done atm. But the Right Bank Line is at 5 o'clock and the left bank is at 2 o'clock to the Mark on the Bearing Shell or Housing. Off set Bush's. How do they work? I'd really like this to be correct from the get-go and it's obvious to me it's been a half-assed go by the previous owner........
In a perfect world, the valves would be open the same when the piston is at top dead centre, but due to the block heights being different and the cylinder head being machined, the cam gets closer to the piston and it slightly effects the valve timing.
Its not a job i would like to do with the engine in the car, its best done when doing an engine overhall, you need a degree wheel on the crankshaft pulley and offset bushes being made for the camshafts, so that they can be timed perfectly.
The straight line on the camshaft has to line up with the cast straight line on the camshaft housing, not at 2 o'clock or 5 o'clock.
The marks on the camshafts can be a couple of degrees either side of the camshaft housing marks, as this is normal production tolerances, but if it is a cog out, then the marks will be way off, Colin.
Ok Treading carefully atm. I'll see how I go but it's starting to make more sense.
And once you have the cams timed perfect with the valves open the same amount, you can put some solder wire on the pistons, by sticking the solder wire on with plasticine, turning the engine over by hand, until the valves hit the solder on the pistons, and leave a dent in the solder, and then measure the solder dents, to make sure that you have piston to valve clearance the same.
This will make sure that you say don't have 2mm clearance on one valve and 4mm clearance on the other, you aim to have the same valve to piston clearance on both valves, to try and avoid collisions when over revs happen.
But this is only when engine is sitting on an engine stand, wouldn't be able to do it with engine installed in car.
When all the valve timing is correct, i used a sharp cold chisel to put a nice crisp timing mark on the camshaft and camshaft housing mark for clarity, Colin.
So now you have the cams and distributor and cranked timed properly, put the new pulleys and belts on, use a known brand of pulley, install the tensioner spring in the block, around the stud, then carefully install the pulley over the spring, keying the spring in with the pulley, then put the washer over the stud, keying in the 2 flats on the washer, then nip up the nut.
Do the same on the other bank, remembering that the pulleys are different for left and right.
Grab the pulley by hand and move anti clockwise, so it is out of the way, and tighten the nut.
Install the belt, and make sure the belt on the opposite side of the pulley has no slack, hold the cam shaft sprocket by ring spanner to key in the timing marks, when the timing marks all line up, loosen off the pulley nut, so that the pulley contacts the belt, nip up the pulley nut, and check that the timing marks still line up.
Do the same for the opposite bank, and check all the timing marks all line up.
Turn the engine over by hand, with a large ring spanner on the crankshaft nut, and if anything locks up, then stop, as your timing is out, if nothing locks up, keep turning the motor over by hand a few times for the belts to centre themselves.
If all ok at this stage, rotate the engine by hand until on one bank the camshaft is not touching any of the cam follower buckets, and then torque up the pulley nut to 35 pounds per sqaure inch, and the camshaft will move clockwise or anti clockwise to find its right position, continue turning motor by hand and check the timing marks on the camshafts and crankshaft.
Repeat the tensioning of the opposite bank, and finally turn engine over by hand and check timing marks on the left bank and the right bank, Colin.
Hi Col I have all my new bits and pieces but still have a problem.
The 1/3 bank lined up ok with the Mark and TDC on Flywheel but the 2/4 banks Timing Mark is way off, it's like a 5 or 6 o'clock. I've played with it, reread your notes multiple times, gone back down stairs and redone things all over but to no avail. To get the Cam mark to line up the #4 exhaust valve is well open. I've even turned the engine over with just 1/3 and turns spot on. But the other side just isn't playing nice.
So after doing 1/3 bank the Flywheel remains still, yes? Because that's what I've been doing yet the engine keeps locking on the 2/4 side.
I Degree'd TDC just to check the Flywheel Mark and it's perfect, someone's been there before for that bit I'd say.
What are your thoughts?
Don't worry about if valves are open or not, just line up the marks on the cams to camshaft housing and tighten the tensioner pulley nut, the marks may be a few degrees out but not more than about 5 degrees.
Rotate the engine carefully by hand and make sure nothing locks up.
Make sure you haven't got one side of the timing 180 degrees out, [as i have done once].
It sounds like the cam timing is out on the 2-4 bank.
Rotate the engine so that the number 2 and 4 pistons are away from the valves, then retime the 2-4 camshaft, if you just rotate the camshaft, the valves may hit the pistons, this is why you have the 2-4 pistons away from the valves, while you line up the camshaft with the mark.
The cams rotate at half the speed of the crankshaft.
Hope this helps, Colin.
Hey guys, I'm no mechanic, but if you are interested in watching video of someone else replacing the cambelt and setting the valve timing on a Sud, have a look at Wheelers and Dealers episode ion the Sud Ti they bought. Its not a detailed blow-by-blow DIY video, and may not have any practical use, but it might jog your memory if you missed anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwepUdbNWqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwepUdbNWqo)
Video not available
Buggers keep on closing free videos down.
This link may work
http://www.watchseriesgo.to/episode/wheeler_dealers_s12_e12.html (http://www.watchseriesgo.to/episode/wheeler_dealers_s12_e12.html)
All three no worky. Might be because of the rubbish that happened in the US a few days back.
I think you have to register with the website to watch, but registration is free.
Here's another one.
http://the-watch-series.to/episode/wheeler_dealers_s12_e12.html (http://the-watch-series.to/episode/wheeler_dealers_s12_e12.html)
that said, its not a real blow by blow account, but I do recall it shows getting the cams correctly lined up in some detail.
Well the Sud engine is to go for an engine rebuild at the end of March. Been working 7 days a week (Detailing cars) to raise the cash and I'm almost there. I'm excited ;D
Hit a wall with finding parts for the engine. The Engine Builder rang me to ask if I can source / find some other bits as I found the correct size Mains in the UK. So I'm wondering if any of the Australian Parts Suppliers have some bits. I need 20thou Plain Big Ends and Engine Gasket Kit and 4 Exhaust Valves. I believe the valves are a std in a 1.5. The Engine Builder had to buy two sets of rings just to make a set as the Second ring is a different size from std. Just this morning the Engine Builder asked if I want it bored? Nope, was my reply. So I'll start with ringing Dom / Mark at Italian Automotive Spares. Any other suggestions?
Trikes, assuming you have the 1.5 twin carb engine, parts should not be hard to find. Try Alfasud Parts in the UK or the Spare Place in Adelaide. Monza Motors, Italian Job & Mille Miglia Motors in Melbourne should be able to assist and probably with NOS parts but are not cheap (but worth it). Ie I only ever properly sealed the Sud engine sump when I purchased a NOS gasket. The aftermarket ones are simply too thin.
Good luck and they are fun to rebuild.
Paul
Send the list of what you need. I think I have all those parts.
You guy's have lifted my spirits considerably.
I need 20thou Undersize Plain Big Ends (no grooved Big Ends)
Complete Gasket Overhaul Set.
Four Exhaust Valves 8mm / 97.2/5 33mm Dia (That's why I had no compression).
Exhaust Valves are std in a 1.5.
This engine is a 1597cc but most 1.5 stuff goes straight in from what we have worked out.
We have Rings Water Pump and Thrust Washers
What else do I need? Original Pistons are good. Compression is 10.5:1.
Block / Rods / Crank are spot on.
Heads are impressively good. Dizzy is a bit worn / just ok.
Freight to Tasmania 7010.
Well I sent the list of what I needed but Amiche must have died or something.
Ready to shove this Alfa over a Cliff atm. Can't get parts atm.
I'll ring around a bit more........ very frustrating.
Trikes, did you try all the suppliers I suggested? Suds are not a modern Toyota and hence you need some patience sourcing the parts but I have never had any difficulty finding. PM me if you want to discuss over the phone.
Chin up!
Paul
Did I see the Sud on the road in Kingston today?