164 v 33 v 75

[stustustu123]

Such a difficult decision, but I finally have the answer...A THREE CAR GARAGE!. 

The perfect answer - why didn't we think of this earlier?   

[oz3litre]

The most important thing with the air conditioning in the 164 or 75 is to use ER12 gas in them because it is the direct replacement for the original CFC based R12. R34 does not work, despite what some air conditioner guys will try to tell you. Don't let them tell you ER12 is banned or dangerous because it is neither. In a 75 it is freezing. With the 164 make sure the recirc flap under the drivers side windscreen is not stuck open and letting hot air in like mine was. On the subject of 75s, the Potenziatas have the same engine as the SZ/ES30 and 164Q with the high compression 10:1 pistons, Motronic EFI and hot cams, producing just over 200BHP. I am having mine rebuilt at the moment and there is no doubt about it. They also have a 3.73 diff instead of the 3.54. Standard 164s and 3 litre 75s have 9:1 compression and normal cams, with LJet EFI on the 75 and Motronic on the 164.

[Duk]

On the subject of 75s, the Potenziatas have the same engine as the SZ/ES30 and 164Q with the high compression 10:1 pistons, Motronic EFI and hot cams, producing just over 200BHP. I am having mine rebuilt at the moment and there is no doubt about it. They also have a 3.73 diff instead of the 3.54. Standard 164s and 3 litre 75s have 9:1 compression and normal cams, with LJet EFI on the 75 and Motronic on the 164.

Are you sure about the Potenziata having 10:1 CR and just over 200hp? I've never been able to find hard facts about the Potenziata engine and always thought it was a 3 litre with a 9.5:1 CR, Motronic 4.1 and slightly better cams than the older L Jetronic 3 litre.
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/A_2255/article.html "Interestingly, the 3.0 V6 engine was upgraded to Alfa 164-like specifications during 1990. The up-spec engine lifts the ante to a substantial 141kW and 250Nm – its no surprise that this beast can reach 100 km/h in around 7 – 8 seconds! Rear-drive and a standard LSD mean fast getaways are easy. Note that these later-model Alfa 75s are commonly called "Potenziatas".

[L4OMEO]

I think you're right Duk. I know the 164Q engine wasn't the same spec as the ES30 (200bhp v 210bhp), not so sure about the 75 Potenziata but I don't recall it ever receiving either state of tune. Could be wrong.

[L4OMEO]

Perhaps in your mind Paul

[L4OMEO]

Nice to be sparring with someone who doesn't take himself too seriously 

Cheers mate!
Rory

[pep105]

Yeah paul I think the newer gen Alfas are a bit more delicate than the old ones, I had this discussion with Frank a couple of weeks ago about 147's, but happy to talk further in another thread. Can give you my experience, Rory would like to get your feedback on the 156.

The 75 Potenziata info seems a little sketchy, yes its got Motronic 4.1, different cams and 141kw against 136kw for the standard 75 3.0 and 145kw for the 164Q. Once I find the June 1991 road test of the 75 Potenziata v Audi 90 v Peugeot 405Mi16 v Citroen BXGT I will post it.

The wheels test car posted a disappointing 0 - 100 in 9.7 secs and the standing 400m in 16.7 way off the pace, but the journo's at the time complained of massive clutch slip off the line with this particular car so the expectation was it would be a fair bit quicker, given that in the rolling starts it tore the others a new one and was an absolute rocket with a top speed of over 220 kays to boot, talk about a flying brick!

  ::)164s , Ok very nice motor but you can have that in a nice 75 3lt. and it drives like a real Alfa Romeo should, not like a boat with 200hp outboard motor bolted to the front bumper.

Maybe they should include a fishing rod in the boot  

Forza la 75  !!!!!

[oz3litre]

Are you sure about the Potenziata having 10:1 CR and just over 200hp? I've never been able to find hard facts about the Potenziata engine and always thought it was a 3 litre with a 9.5:1 CR, Motronic 4.1 and slightly better cams than the older L Jetronic 3 litre.
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/A_2255/article.html "Interestingly, the 3.0 V6 engine was upgraded to Alfa 164-like specifications during 1990. The up-spec engine lifts the ante to a substantial 141kW and 250Nm – its no surprise that this beast can reach 100 km/h in around 7 – 8 seconds! Rear-drive and a standard LSD mean fast getaways are easy. Note that these later-model Alfa 75s are commonly called "Potenziatas".

I am absolutely sure about those figures for several reasons. One is that my engine is currently in pieces and it definitely has the 10:1 pistons. It also definitely has the SZ/164Q cams as does my wrecked Potenziata from which I pulled the cams last week. They exactly match the pictures and specs posted by Jim K on the AlfaBB. The second reason is that Jim K is currently finishing his book on modifying the V6 and has all the microfiche records and has bought and dismantled numerous engines. He says that the Potenziata engine is exactly the same as the SZ, minus the stainless steel headers and that all the part numbers match. You will also find that the fuel pressure regulator on the Potenziata is higher than the normal 3 litre by the way. I know because I have taken one off the other car to replace with a brand new 3 litre one and they were different. You can only read the writing on them when you take them off. Another fact from Jim K is that the lift on the cams is actually 10.4 mm not 10.1mm as incorrectly stated by Alfa due to a clerical error. The standard 164 and 75 cams have 9.1 mm lift. The final drive is also definitely 3.73:1 I have checked it using Craig from Melbourne's spreadsheet and checking my speed against the tacho numerous times. I also own a standard 3 litre 75 and a 164 to compare with. It makes sense to me that the Potenziata has the same engine as the SZ because they came out at about the same time and before the 164Q. Why would Alfa make some sort of in between engine when they already had the high performance one in the North South configuration for the SZ? It took me a lot of research to track all this down because, as you say, it is hard to find the facts, especially since Alfa didn't change the driver's manuals. Having my engine in pieces confirmed what I had already worked out. Another thing I just remembered is that the rev limit is much higher on the Potenziata.

[L4OMEO]

Gidday oz3litre

You're obviously more knowledgable on this subject than I am. I do know, however, that the power Alfa quoted for the 164Q was 10bhp down on the SZ, and remember reading at the time what the differences between the two were. It did relate to the engine spec rather than differences in the exhaust, but can't recall the details. Thinking back though, I do have a vague recollection of USA-spec 75 3-litres (or rather, 3-liters  ) having a power boost late in the model life-cycle for the Potenziatas. Then again, this could just be Alzheimers kicking in. Then again, this could just be Alzheimers kicking in 

Pep & Paul - yeah the 156/147 range were not the last word in reliability, though the newer cars seem to be much more robust. The picture is distorted by the Selespeed issues, take that out of the equation and it's really not so bleak. I have had 3 156s - 2 Selespeeds (1 as a company car) and my current V6, worst fault I've had (come to think of it, the only fault I've had) was a blown heater hose.

In terms of the ownership & driving experience, I think they're wonderful cars. No, power-oversteer is out of the question (unless you're driving in reverse  ) but dynamically they're very good with razor-sharp steering, strong brakes, great body-control, and wonderful engines. As is true with most Alfa models the 4-cylinder is the better handler with less weight over the front, but I have the Eibach springs, shocks and anti-roll bars installed and it's now an awesome thing to punt. Let me know anytime you're in Brisneyland and you're welcome to have a go. I wouldn't expect it to to convert you from your rear-drivers but you might be a little surprised at how much fun it is.

Pep, I have a copy of roadtest of the 75 3.0 from Autocar with much better acceleration figures than Wheels achieved, I'll post it on here when I get a chance. 0-60mph in 7.5 sec .... or nearly as quick as the 156 V6 

Love to continue this but I have a weekend of yard-work ahead of me    Take is easy fullas!

Rory

[L4OMEO]

Nice. I'm very jealous - would love to have another toy but circumstances just don't allow at the moment. See you on the track some time in the future 

[oz3litre]

Gidday oz3litre

You're obviously more knowledgable on this subject than I am. I do know, however, that the power Alfa quoted for the 164Q was 10bhp down on the SZ, and remember reading at the time what the differences between the two were. It did relate to the engine spec rather than differences in the exhaust, but can't recall the details. Thinking back though, I do have a vague recollection of USA-spec 75 3-litres (or rather, 3-liters  ) having a power boost late in the model life-cycle for the Potenziatas. Then again, this could just be Alzheimers kicking in. Then again, this could just be Alzheimers kicking in 


Rory

Hi Rory. The Americans only ever had the L-Jet 75s with the 188 BHP engine and 3.54 diff. They only got 75s for about two-three years. I am in constant contact with them on the AlfaBB and have read countless discussions. They would love to have got Potenziatas. Some of them have upgraded with Q, (or "S" as they call them), cams and a very few others have put 24 valve motors in. They also sometimes put 4.1 LSDs in them. One guy over there is from South Africa and is mates with Dawie Devilliers from Glenwood Motors and has put a modified late model Glenwood 24V 3 litre with GTA cams in his street car and is building a 3.7 litre, all out racing 75, with BMW 3 Getrag trans and other stuff. We're talking serious money here! Devilliers has a GTV6 twin turbo race car for sale which has over 700 BHP at the wheels! That has the M3 box and a heap of other lovely stuff. Apparently if it wasn't a race car you could drive it on the street.

[L4OMEO]

Wow, interesting stuff. Those Americans really are into their Alfas.Those are incredible numbers, bet the $$$ are equally incredible!

I do remember reading a road test of a 75 Potenziata in Road & Track, which is what the comment in my last post was based on, but it must have been a Euro-spec car they were driving.

Are you doing anything special in your rebuild or is it going back together stock?

[oz3litre]

Are you doing anything special in your rebuild or is it going back together stock?

We are doing a few tweaks too. Might as well while it is apart.

[L4OMEO]

For sure. I never met a kilowatt I didn't like 

Hope it goes well, keep us posted.

[pep105]

Hi Oz3litre

I guess you've unlocked some of the mysteries to the Poteziata engine spec, good stuff since this is one model there's not a lot of info on and from
what your saying spec wise it sounds like a bit of a factory hot rod. Does anyone know how many were imported ? From what production year ?
90, 91 ?

Here a link to a road test of a 75 Milano 3.0 from 1988, its yank spec but still pretty quick and includes Recaro's ! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb-xGNaqDLs