Cross & Serpent magazine creates history!?

[vin sharp]

Following an article in the current Club magazine I would like to correct some facts as stated.
The Jagermeister 105 at Phillip Island is not, was not and never will be an genuine historic ex-factory, ex-European Touring Car Championship, ex Jagermeister or anything else GTAm. At best it is a 'tribute' car.
It is a new build car from a GTV2000 shell that was registered in Germany in '72, modified to look like a 1750 GTAm.
A Jagermeister GTAm in period is purely fictional and NEVER existed.
What did exist was the Rainer Mascke Jagermeister GTA Jnr. This original car is still  around and I'm sure the current owner would not be pleased that part of its history in being attributed to another car...
Why is this important?  Because the AROCA publication should be seen as a valuable source of valid & correct information. Also, there are currently several 'GTAs' involved legal matters in the UK & Europe after subsequent buyers have realised their cars are not what they were purported to be and relied on 'borrowed' history from other cars, and a genuine car is worth up to 10 times a replicas value.
Information from marque specialist publications is often a source of 'facts' presented with a car, so we should be careful to be accurate in what is printed in ours.
There is no suggestion here of impropriety of the car owner nor our magazine, but as a prominent UK Alfisti pointed out, we have on paper elevated the Jagermeister 'GTAm's status from replica to fake.
He also in response to my inquiries, tongue-in-cheek, asked why we Australians are the only people who believe this car to be an original; "Don't you have the internet or books down under?" !!
And I should also say, that apart from the above, the content and new production & print qualities of the magazine are excellent.
Vin.

[massiveluvbuddy67]

Following an article in the current Club magazine I would like to correct some facts as stated.
The Jagermeister 105 at Phillip Island is not, was not and never will be an genuine historic ex-factory, ex-European Touring Car Championship, ex Jagermeister or anything else GTAm. At best it is a 'tribute' car.
It is a new build car from a GTV2000 shell that was registered in Germany in '72, modified to look like a 1750 GTAm.
A Jagermeister GTAm in period is purely fictional and NEVER existed.
What did exist was the Rainer Mascke Jagermeister GTA Jnr. This original car is still  around and I'm sure the current owner would not be pleased that part of its history in being attributed to another car...
Why is this important?  Because the AROCA publication should be seen as a valuable source of valid & correct information. Also, there are currently several 'GTAs' involved legal matters in the UK & Europe after subsequent buyers have realised their cars are not what they were purported to be and relied on 'borrowed' history from other cars, and a genuine car is worth up to 10 times a replicas value.
Information from marque specialist publications is often a source of 'facts' presented with a car, so we should be careful to be accurate in what is printed in ours.
There is no suggestion here of impropriety of the car owner nor our magazine, but as a prominent UK Alfisti pointed out, we have on paper elevated the Jagermeister 'GTAm's status from replica to fake.
He also in response to my inquiries, tongue-in-cheek, asked why we Australians are the only people who believe this car to be an original; "Don't you have the internet or books down under?" !!
And I should also say, that apart from the above, the content and new production & print qualities of the magazine are excellent.
Vin.

On the quiet, there is a rumour that that the Jagermeister TZ1 will be at the Historics in 2015. Hugh and I are making up the stickers now... :-)

[ANG156]

I would also like to add that the photo of the engine in the alfamen article is not from a 156. Engine bay resembles a 159/brera and engine is chain driven not belt driven.

[alfamisa]

On the quiet, there is a rumour that that the Jagermeister TZ1 will be at the Historics in 2015. Hugh and I are making up the stickers now... :-)

Why make them up, just buy them (leave off the porsche bit though);
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/porsche-911-930-934-jagermeister-decals-stickers-adesivi-/251527510982?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a90353bc6

PS I commend your research Vin, well done and totally agree with your point of view.

[branko.gt]

this also begs a question, why woudl VHRR ever invite a tribute car ? what were they thinking ?

it seems to be easier to get invited to present a nice looking tribute/replica than a genuine article !?!?!?!

[massiveluvbuddy67]

this also begs a question, why woudl VHRR ever invite a tribute car ? what were they thinking ?

it seems to be easier to get invited to present a nice looking tribute/replica than a genuine article !?!?!?!

A few years ago I tried to have the TZ1 entered into the Historics Group ?. I declared it as a recreation and was consequently dismissed and told only the regularity event. I can live with that decision but consistency would be appreciated in the application of the decisions. (I was chuffed this year though as the rear cover page picture in the Historics race guide had the TZ1 in 2010 in the Regularity event). C'est la vie.

[Evan Bottcher]

I think we are unaccustomed to the rules in Europe.  There are heaps of Appendix K 'GTAm' race cars over there which made to the regulations and issued an FIA certificate, and raced in historic racing.  Of course they aren't genuine factory GTAms but to the uninformed they sound like the real deal.

At the Island in March I had a discussion about the Roz Shaw car with the editor of a local motorsports magazine who planned to feature the car.  When I described the car as a replica he was surprised, and stated he was certain the car was genuine, with FIA papers.  Well yes it may have FIA papers stating it's eligibility for historic racing, but that doesn't make it an original Autodelta car and doesn't mean it has period racing history.

Also it seems many of the owners make no attempt to clarify whether they are the real deal or not - Roz certainly was very careful never to give much specific about the car.

Disappointing, but not surprising.

[Frank Musco]

LOL, Thanks for clearing that up Vin, I was almost sucked in, and yes it's very important the AROCA vic magazine does its due dilegence! It's a very serious issue in my opinion. Sounds like a lack of communication within the club? Come on people, talk to each other, ask questions, it's easy.

So where do I return my current magazine, and when do I get the corrected version? LOL again!

Branko, or should I call you Captain Slow, no actually Mr Slowly, as I'm Italiano. When I've watched Historic motor racing in this country, I often find myself cringing because some of the people driving/attempting to race! these extremely rare, often one-off cars, obviously have never attending a racecraft training day, in my opinion. Therefore, I would NEVER enter the REAL car, I would build a 'Tribute' car because I wouldn't be too happy having someone 'accidentally' destroying my unique piece of history, capish/understand...? So the VHRR allows 'tribute' cars for many reasons, this being a reason not many speak about as to not offend, also they need to fill the grid, also they need to attract spectators and so on. The VHRR are in an extremely difficult position, and I for one would rather see a replica being driven by an experienced race driver, than an original car driven by a business man who can afford a genuine historic car, but cant drive the bloody thing. Just like at the last historics at P.I where there were formula 1 type cars and formula 5000's, and the difference in lap times was around 30 seconds!!! Some of the cars were coming onto the main straight so fast, they almost ran into the back of the 'novices', on a consistent basis! On the other hand, I go and speak to some of the drivers and they openly admit to me that they just cant drive the cars, because they are too powerful, they're personally not fit enough and so on, and I commend them for having the 'guts' to give it a go, as opposed to putting the car in a museum and never using them appropriately. I understand some see these events as 'recreation', but in reality, once the flag drops no one is going to convince me its recreational, der, get real! LOL again!

Pardon me for going way of topic.

P.S Hey Branko, smashed your car in the parking area at Winton lately and blamed it on brakes or something, hope your not thinking of doing any historic racing! LOL again!

[Garibaldi]

I cannot believe you would buy yourself a full blooded open wheeler race car and not develop the fitness and skill required to drive the thing in the manner for which it was designed. It never ceases to amaze me at the level of fitness, or lack of for a lot of the drivers when I attend historic and amateur motor racing meetings. Some of these guys look like they have spent the best part of their lives in the local pub or fast food joint. There needs to be some kind of proper fitness assessment, not just a check-up from a GP saying you are medically ok to race, particularly for cars which place a high demand on the driver. They are putting their lives and the other competitors lives at risk by not being physically fit. 

[vin sharp]

this also begs a question, why woudl VHRR ever invite a tribute car ? what were they thinking ?

it seems to be easier to get invited to present a nice looking tribute/replica than a genuine article !?!?!?!

To be fair, it may well have been that a female driver was thought to be a good publicity ploy by the organisers, not just the type of car.
Also, regards car entry & eligibility, you have to consider WHICH class it is to be entered in. Some classes, mainly for touring or road-sportscars, are allowed to be current-build cars of the type that were raced in period. That is, most of our members' group S and N cars. The English GTAmReplica ran in GpN.
Other classes, mainly for proper formula type cars or racing-sportscars, are for only genuine period original cars.  Phil's TZ1Replica attempted entry was to one of these latter classes, so was not accepted.
This mix of classes exists because for some of them, ie; GpN Touringcars up to 1972, so few of the original cars actually exist that it would be impossible to have a decent  representative field of cars from this period. So, you can have a CAMS log-booked GpN or S historic race car, but that does not necessarily mean that is it an original-period car that actually raced in the day.
A similar mix exists in Europe, however the lines do seem a bit more blurred to say the least. FIA historic log books allow a car to race, but again do not mean it is necessarily an original car.
My gripe is not that the English "GTAm" was a replica as such, it's that it was generally (mis)represented as an original period car of some note, and this tends to then "borrow" the history of an actual car of the period.
Personally I think all replicas should have an "R" added onto their name description. This would at least allow the paying customer to decide if he might perhaps spend lots of time and money travelling to see something that turns out to be not what he expected......
Cheers,
Vin.

[Frank Musco]

Very interesting Vin, and I agree with 'R' for replica classification. Now that you've cleared that up, what everyone wants to know...

When are you going to create history? Which event have you set as your goal for your GTAm?

Cheers
Frank.