Author Topic: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project  (Read 15538 times)

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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2021, 10:17:08 AM »
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities? https://richmonds.com.au/portfolio/2004-alfa-romeo-156-race-car/

 
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2021, 10:24:03 AM »
Went with the momo mod 08. $370 from ebay. I did some research on the saas steering wheels and people were complaing about them bending when you just lean on it. Also the Dish helps on the momo in case of accidents as you dont want a flat bit of exposed metal in the middle of the steering wheel.
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warsch

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2021, 11:21:17 AM »
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally

warsch

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2021, 11:39:42 AM »
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities?

I'm pretty sure vinyl is fine as it's the material standard door cards are made of, you can get sheets from Bunnings even. Then there's zincalum sheets which I've been told are the lightest per square meter. And, I guess, thin alu sheets work too.

The car in the link is such an odd one.

Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2021, 12:01:31 PM »
Any idea on what material these new door trims are from? I am guessing it needs to have some flame retardent qualities?

I'm pretty sure vinyl is fine as it's the material standard door cards are made of, you can get sheets from Bunnings even. Then there's zincalum sheets which I've been told are the lightest per square meter. And, I guess, thin alu sheets work too.

The car in the link is such an odd one.

I ended up getting a black pvc board that is used for roof insulation as it's impact resistant from bunnings.

Do people re wire the power window switches from the doors? I am thinking of keeping them on the doors but it that doesnt seem like the common solution.
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Beatle

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2021, 04:58:06 PM »
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
I'd tape them or dip the cut end in silicone sealer just to be sure, but for a racer why not remove as much wire as possible for weight saving?  If the whole circuit is not required, remove the applicable fuse (more weight reduction!)
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'79 GTV - Loyal 1st love
'76 GT - Track entry
'89 75TS - Saved
'76 Alfetta - Sacrificed
'83 GTV6 - NT bullet
'67 Duetto - Fun
'66 Super - Endearing
'92 164 - Stunning
'85 90 - Odd
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2021, 09:48:00 PM »
I will probably get Maureci Motors to cut out the frame and weld it to the floor. Would they weld in the L Shape brackets to the floor in that case? Or do you make a new square frame and than weld in the L shape brackets like these

Most bucket seats are mounted via L brackets, but you can't just bolt them to the floor, that's unsafe.

You do something like FIA appendix J (or close to it, unless you do rallies)

https://www.murraymotorsport.com/grp4-fabrications-fia-seat-mounting-kit-bolt-in-grp5093

Something like the above, but maybe fabricated locally

I ended up getting the l shape bracket and the xl momo seat.  (The seat cost more than the car lol but I figure my neck is worth more than $500 so bought the one with the head restraints. A seat with no head restraints is about $600) I will try the standard frame as cutting it out seems like a lot of work for a couple of cm clearance. Plus the seat is a side mount so it should go lower than factory.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 09:56:27 PM by Alfatango »
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2021, 09:49:06 PM »
General question - where abouts can you cut a wire and ensure that it is still safe? For example door speaker wires or the roof light wires? I want to get rid of them. Is it a case of cutting them off and wrapping them with electrical tape or is there more to it?
I'd tape them or dip the cut end in silicone sealer just to be sure, but for a racer why not remove as much wire as possible for weight saving?  If the whole circuit is not required, remove the applicable fuse (more weight reduction!)

I don't know enough about wiring looms so I will ensure my car starts and sacrifice the weight gain ;D
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2021, 09:52:17 PM »
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 09:55:39 PM by Alfatango »
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Colin Edwards

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2021, 11:10:02 AM »
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

I cant advise on tyre pressures.  Give John B a call?  But purchase the best pressure gauge you can afford. 

I have one of these.
https://www.alfano.com.au/product/alfano-tyre-control-2-pressure-gauge-inc-temp-sensor-probe/


 
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2015 Giulietta QV
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2012 Giulietta TCT Veloce
2006 147 Ti 2 door Selespeed
1979 Alfasud Ti 1.5

warsch

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2021, 11:29:53 AM »
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

156/147 don't really need adjustable bushes, the camber increases with lowering the car. So my car has good -2.5 at the front with simple polybushes in top arms and just new lower arms. I do have all the rear polybushed though, and it's nice, but not really needed.

Eibach spring are nowhere near 400 lbs, they are like 30% more stiff than stock.

warsch

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2021, 11:36:00 AM »
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?

Tire pressure you'd have to work out yourself for your tires, tarmac temp, car weight etc. I run about 30 psi hot in Yoko AD08R in the same size. And 32-34 hot in Hankook RS4 215/45r17.

If bushes are good, I don't think it's worth to go polyurethane, but if you have spare cash, it does add to better response.

As already said - neutral toe is a good start, front camber will be ok when you lower your car, and I'd try to set about the same at rear.

Eibach with stock shocks is way too soft for track duties. Cheap coilovers are the way to go, in my opinion. You can get a set of DGR coilovers delivered for AUD 1250. They are track proven in 156 and are a control suspension for Hot Hatch cup here in QLD.

Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2021, 01:37:18 PM »
Zero toe would be a good place to start, however the regs allow you to replace the factory bushes with polyurethane.  Not much point playing around with toe settings if the respective bushes allow the suspension geometry to move around like an overcooked noodle.  Go for poly bushes that allow caster and camber adjustment.  Heaps of caster is a good place to start.

Given the 156 wants to naturally understeer, making the best use of the front tyres is fundamental to sorting a FWD car.  An increase in rear roll stiffness can dial out bit of understeer / dial in a bit of mid corner oversteer.  The regs mention 400lb springs at the rear.  The Eibach springs should have a part number painted on them - this will detail the spring rate.  If they are under 400lb you will probably be at a disadvantage.

I cant advise on tyre pressures.  Give John B a call?  But purchase the best pressure gauge you can afford. 

I have one of these.
https://www.alfano.com.au/product/alfano-tyre-control-2-pressure-gauge-inc-temp-sensor-probe/

Is there a cheaper tyre guage that anyone uses? Thats almost the price of my car ;D
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2021, 01:55:26 PM »
What about a good wheel alignment spec? The Bushes and sway bars are factory. It has red eibach springs but not sure about Shocks. Wheels are the alfa 17s with 225 45 17 federal rsr semi slicks. The car is not registered so can go aggresive on the wheel alignment without making it a pig to drive.

What about tyre pressures?

Tire pressure you'd have to work out yourself for your tires, tarmac temp, car weight etc. I run about 30 psi hot in Yoko AD08R in the same size. And 32-34 hot in Hankook RS4 215/45r17.

If bushes are good, I don't think it's worth to go polyurethane, but if you have spare cash, it does add to better response.

As already said - neutral toe is a good start, front camber will be ok when you lower your car, and I'd try to set about the same at rear.

Eibach with stock shocks is way too soft for track duties. Cheap coilovers are the way to go, in my opinion. You can get a set of DGR coilovers delivered for AUD 1250. They are track proven in 156 and are a control suspension for Hot Hatch cup here in QLD.

$1250 seems very reasonable. So can I run DGR coil overs in the Twin Spark Cup? Or do I need to have the control suspension being a King Spring or Spax Coil Over set?

This is from the twin spark cup regulations:

ALFA 147/156 TWIN SPARK CUP CONTROL SUSPENSION
FRONT
SPAX RACE COILOVER STRUT G9494AS 2 OFF
KING MAIN SPRING 170 X 60 X 550LB/IN KPS308 2 OFF
SPAX TENDER SPRING R019 2 OFF
PILLOW BALL TOP MOUNT SC44332S 2 OFF

REAR
SPAX RACE COILOVER STRUT TAAS943 2 OFF
KING MAIN SPRING 170 X 60 X 400LB/IN KPS305 2 OFF
SPAX TENDER SPRING R019 2 OFF
PILLOW BALL TOP MOUNT SC44334S 2 OFF

PRICING
COMPETITOR COST $2159.09 plus GST ($2375.00 inc GST)
Delivery cost additional
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Alfatango

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Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2021, 01:57:50 PM »
Just for everyone's info here are the recommended roll cages:

https://www.agi-precision.com.au/product-category/roll-cages/cams-roll-cages/bolt-in/alfa/alfa-156/

It seems like the $2,200 option and up is needed for the twin spark cup?
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