Author Topic: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6  (Read 3116 times)

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Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2021, 07:47:09 PM »
Hi Chet,

I have absolutely no experience in dealing with Mace (Australian company), but I have read that V6 owners in the UK are happy with the performance cams they sell for the V6. I also own a V6 but haven't needed to replace the timing chains yet. I'm also not a mechanic  :)
Good luck

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/MACE-PREMIUM-TIMING-CHAIN-KIT-WITH-GEARS-ALFA-ROMEO-159-JTS-939A0-32L-V6

Stu

Wow 30rwkw with the cams. Didn't know that was an option.

https://www.maceengineering.com.au/epages/mace.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/mace/Categories/Vehicles/Alfa_Romeo/159


“They Must Have Changed Their Lobe Centres”.

I have been puzzling over Mace Cams for my JTS and had more detail been available, would have considered them - particularly given the cost of CB’s.

They give so little away, so let’s look at what information there is, taking the inlet cam first.

Alfa’s is 254deg., opening at 11.5deg. atdc. Mace is 210deg. That is 44deg. less duration than Alfa’s!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean the Mace was opening 22deg. later than Alfa’s???? - 33.5deg. atdc???????

Take the exhaust: -

Alfa’s is 250deg. and closes at 9deg. atdc. Mace’s is 210deg. That is 40deg. less duration than Alfa’s!

If lobe centres stayed the same, that would mean Mace’s was closing 20deg. earlier than Alfa’s!!!!!!

Therefore, assuming Lobe centres stayed the same, a 3.2 JTS, fitted with Mace cams would have static timing angles of: -

11deg. (9-20)  btdc exhaust valve closes. 33.5. (11.5+22) atdc inlet opens. That results in a 44.5deg. of Negative Valve Overlap!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless my calculations are wrong and I don’t believe they are, they “Must” have moved the lobe centres.

If they remain the same, and the engine “Was” able to tick-over, it would be very lumpy indeed. And even more gutless. More to the point, the engine would not make 30 Kw more power, regardless of what exhaust system was fitted.

I don’t believe it would meet emissions standards either - well certainly not European.

So, in the firm belief, Mace are an Honest Company, they must have moved the Lobe centres, they just aren’t telling us!

For a Characteristic “Lumpy Idle”, I believe the valve timing has changed to create PVO - Positive Valve Overlap.

However, They definitely would not move the valve timing to “Outside the 3.2 JTS’s Maximum Advance/Retard Angles”.

So what might they have done?

Well, “Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery” and it is not uncommon for manufacturers to buy competitors products, to produce their own in completion.

With this in mind, Colombo Bariani maintained lobe centres, but increased duration. This took inlet opening time from 11.5deg. atdc to 0.5deg. btdc.; the exhaust from 9deg. atdc to 23deg. atdc., closing time took it to 23deg. atdc. Creating 23.5deg. of PVO!

So Mace could safely do the same, acknowledging their lower duration, they could still move their lobe centres to open the inlet at 0.5deg. BTDC and close their exhaust at 23.0deg. ATDC., creating the same PVO.

I think there is a little more to it than this, but generally, it must be what they have done. it still puts the 3.2JTS below 300 bhp, and there must be other factors involved if what they say is to be believed, given the do not increase lift, which would give more power and they do not increase duration which would improve the top end.

So come on Mace - tell us the whole story!


Alfatango

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2021, 04:45:45 PM »
Thanks Ascari
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Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2021, 09:49:35 PM »
Hi Ascari,

Yep, I'm all good, well locked down here good.........I suppose. Gladys seems to think I'm OK? I never thought I'd wish I was playing first grade rugby league, but at the moment, it's considered an essential service??? Like Doctors & nurses.....

I see you're in your usual fine form with those cracker posts!

In reference to the UK forum, I read it ages ago. There was an ongoing debate where Alfa fans were going at it with people saying the CB cams were better and someone chimed in and said they wouldn't be so sure that an Italian company would make better cams for an Aussie engine, than an Aussie company could. The next comment was something along the line of plenty of our members are running Mace cams and are really happy with them. They didn't actually state that they were in the UK though, so they could be from anywhere. Sorry, I don't have a specific link but I do recall I found it with a google search. I think this is it https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/3-2-159.826097/page-2 there's also a lot of carry on about the engine also, so you'll love it. It's an extensive thread. If it's not this particular thread it was somewhere else on this forum, I think? Either way there'll be plenty there of interest to you

Cheers
Stu
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2021, 03:54:31 AM »
Glad to hear it Stu. Me? Just trying to maintain my sanity, although it may drive others crackers.

Yes, I was involved with those posts but things have moved on quite a bit since; i.e., the C.B.'s were a pipe dream at the time given they are only made to order. However, I found E.B. Spares had a set buried amongst their old stock. They just could not sell them. So I think they bit my hand off when I bought them.

However, I have been on the U.K forum for over a decade and nobody stuck their head above the parapet to say they had bought Mace cams. I got my timing chain kit, a new crankshaft and shells from Mace and I regard then highly.

But the angles they quote for their cams and the fact that they are the same lift as Alfa's suggests the only way they could improve performance is by moving the lobe centres. However, I am extremely sceptical about their claims unless they include a host of other changes: headers, exhaust and maybe remap.

As far as the 3.2 JTS engine is concerned, one specialist independent said he would not rebuild mine, citing the cost of parts, if indeed he could find them. Another said he rebuilt two, one for a long term customer and another for a friend and lost a shed load of money on them - he felt he couldn't pass the cost onto the customers and took the hit.

Dealerships wouldn't go further than sell me a new engine at £16,500 or a reconditioned one -bought in for £12,500.

I found that the UK Forum guys, and this is not a criticism, stick to suspension mods, cat - backs and incidentals on the whole. None to my knowledge have undertaken to rebuild or modify their engines. To be fair, I think you have more 3.2 JTS's in Aus. They are being scapped at a hell of a rate here in UK. I think mine is one of only half a dozen currently on the road, the Q4 is incredibly rare.

Cams, as far as the average punter is concerned, need to be done when timing chains are replaced. That adds to the cost of the whole process and there is little confidence/belief, they will make a difference. However, I had C.B.'s on five occasions and I know how good they are. To get a set made by C.B., you need to splash out £2,200 + vat and it is no less expensive on Mainland Europe or the Far East. And they do sell!!!!!!!

Mine, to my knowledge are the only ones on a 3.2 JTS in Britain as far as I am aware.  But the C.B.'s won't perform anywhere near their best without changes to the manifolds, the exhaust system as a whole and the VVT system.

They can never give their best if the camshaft angles aren't maintained operationally - and that means improvement to the timing chain tension - improving oil flow pressure and the VVT system.

It is a hell of an expense and folks can't/won't pay, given the cost is so indeterminate as far as garages in UK are concerned. In esence, it ends up as a purely hypothetical debate with lots of speculation about gains and the old chestnut "Remapping".

However, there are only two published Dyno - runs of the 3.2 JTS on the Forum - mine and a Fellow Australian Compatriot who had the balls to fit my C.L.L.S, and did my VVT mods. And to the guy's eternal credit, I asked him to undertake two Dynamometer runs - pre and post, which he was happy to do. Top Man!

There are none of an engine with Mace cams fitted - and one would think, if anyone is that serious, they would want to know!

The big problem wrt the camshafts was overcome when I designed a pair of cam - sprocket carriers which allow the cams to be swapped out whilsts the chains remain in situ. But still, I can well understand the reluctance to do anything given the 159, Brera and Spider are long obsolete and spares incredibly difficult.

The Twin cat under the car is just as problematic as the manifold cats and this leads to even more expense. All in all, it just isn't worth it, despite it being an important exercise for me, given I am retired.

But there is so much to like about the car, it's almost as if the engine is superfulous. Rip out the 3.2 JTS and fit a 3.0 Busso, from a 75 with a transaxle and it would be a better motor than it is with the Standard 3.2 JTS engine. And rear wheel drive to boot!

But hell, when it is modified, the 3.2 JTS is a cracker - I wouldn't want anything else under the bonnet - now that the work has been done.

Of course, Mace could always supply me with a set of cams and I would bench test them and provide the results. Jeez - you could not blame anything else if they failed to perform, given the extesive modifications on my car - all in the right areas.

So come on Mace, stick a set in the post to me!

     
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 06:45:38 AM by Ascari32 »

Alfatango

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2021, 09:26:36 AM »
But there is so much to like about the car, it's almost as if the engine is superfulous. Rip out the 3.2 JTS and fit a 3.0 Busso, from a 75 with a transaxle and it would be a better motor than it is with the Standard 3.2 JTS engine. And rear wheel drive to boot!
     

Which is what they did in the giulia qv basically but with a ferrari engine and 458 designer for the chassis.
156 2.0 TS Track Car

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Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2021, 05:08:06 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjer44r4m8

A little distraction - the real reason Alfa Survived and Lancia did not - "Limone", and you can't get a more authoritive figure than Sergio.

And the Historical source of the winning 155 engine, as well as the reason why the 159 was dead in the water, wrt racing. Its potential for being developed for competition is roundly "Scotched". So that ghost is well and truly laid to rest!

https://youtu.be/DRcFpmQL3bc

Fiat just do not come out of these interviews well at all, although Limone speaks dispassionately about the issue. Given the 155 engine came from Lancia, which in itself came from Peugeot, it is perhaps fortunate the French are once again involved. Let's hope too, they restore Lancia to their rightful place - amongst the "Creme' de la Creme'".



Davide Cirone performs an important role with his interviews. We need the kind of history the likes of people like Sergio Limone can give us. It is the only way we can prevent their contribution and the history they have, from becoming lost.


Somehow, I can't see Clarkson performing such a role - his ego continually gets in the way of everything. Maybe James May, but Clarkson - no!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 05:41:41 PM by Ascari32 »

Alfatango

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2021, 06:03:21 PM »
Love Davide Cironi's channel. His interview with the 156 touring car driver, f40 creator and gandini vids are my favourite.

The 159 did dominate bathurst ;D
https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-diesels-dominate-at-bathurst/
156 2.0 TS Track Car

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159 3.2 JTS TI AWD
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Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2021, 06:17:53 PM »

Impressive! The 2.4D is a great engine.

Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2021, 11:02:16 PM »
the V6 is getting very rare and I agree, it's a great car to drive. I'm reminded of the rarity when I have to source parts  :) I still enjoy it though. With the price of old Alfas in general pretty good, maybe one day, while I'm still alive???, it might even attract a decent resale price. The Alfa purists will always hate it, but the more practical minded will appreciate it. Mine is a manual also. At the moment I would say the Brera has aged better, but these things change with time. Adjusting the stance, as I have with mine, makes a huge difference to the look of the saloon. When I bought it back in 2008, to my eyes, the saloon was a better looking car than the Brera. Whenever I see a Brera though, I'm reminded of how much I want one. If only for the interior, let alone the ageless body.

The Mace cam performance claim clearly states "with a full exhaust" as I've pointed out on here before. What that actually means, only they know. As far as I know, on a 159, in Australia "a full exhaust" means thousands of dollars, importing headers from Auto Delta with fitting. When it comes time to do my timing chain, I'm going to look at adding their cams though. We'll be able to go nuts on here when that happens  ;D

Stay safe Ascari!

Stu
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2021, 01:09:11 AM »
Cheers Stu - you too, in fact we all need to be mindful, this thing hasn’t gone away.

Brera hasn’t really aged but there is some stiff competition out there, as far as two door coupe’s are concerned.

Love the Spider, but it is big, almost tank size proportions.

But the 159? It’s not a Beemer look alike’, as the Giulia is. My son drew better designs as a ten year old, than the Giulia!

However, the 159 is understated. Nothing stands out; it is an elegant car for its size. Not beautiful as is the original 156 with its “Pinched” waist and uncluttered body. However, even  those who disparage Alfa, acknowledge the 159 looks great.


Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2021, 05:34:32 AM »
I meant the Mace cams by the way, not CB.

Did you also see noted on that thread that some guy had a 3.6 High Feature out of a Camaro with the Alfa heads on it? Wasn't clear if it was in an Alfa or just an idea though

Interesting comment about the Spider. I agree, it appears cumbersome these days, but again, I recall when buying my car from the dealership, drooling over the Spider that was there as it was so beautiful. It looked completely on at that time. Everything was in proportion. That's probably the thing I like the most about car designs, how some age well, some don't. Their shapes go in and out of fashion over the years and you can see it. They go through awkward periods and then eventually emerge again to look somehow modern. Of course the great thing about Alfa is because there aren't many around, their look doesn't date so quickly, like say an Audi or something. The Italians will always be the kings when it comes to motor art.

The 95-2005 era GTV is another good example. The coupe sort of looks like it might get there visually, but still isn't quite. I don't know much about that model but it appears to be good value for money. There's a tan colour spider in that model, that parks not far from my place and it looks perfect to me. Brand new condition and a real eye catcher. If I was willing to own a Spider, this one would be good enough to encourage me to go there.
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2021, 07:04:34 AM »
Nothing ever came of that 3.6 project to my knowledge. It’s a nightmare just getting spares for a standard 3.2 JTS. The ECU would create a headache and the MAF is difficult to get right just with extra breathing, let alone an extra 400 cc.

Would be interesting to see if it has been done.

My 3.0 GTV is a ‘98, had it from virtually new, now only 30,000 miles - continental holidays only. Having had a Alfetta 2.5 GTV6, again from almost new, sort of spoilt the 916 version for me. But the tan leather and the interior is superb. It is beautifully finished off and the Busso 3.0 is brilliant. But the front wheel drive compromises it, the rear is a bit bulbous and the drivers seat a bit high. Phase threes had their seats lowered by about an inch.

But there is no denying it is a great continental cruiser - eats the miles and the C.C. keeps one cool. On balance, I do love it, but not to the same degree as the Alfetta GTV 6.

But the Q4 of the 159 is in a league neither GTV’s are  - it is so well planted. Both GTV’s are edgy near the limit, although the Alfetta was more predictable. But the Q4, doesn’t share that.

By comparison, it is boringly predictable, the Torsen four wheel system so good. And at my age, I have matured into boring predictability.

But, it’s not fair to compare them in this way. All three cars are a cut, way above the rest.

My GTV 3.0, being Alfa Red has suffered with fading bumpers so they are in one of the bedrooms now, after being resprayed. The problem now is, I have got a hell of a job to do, bringing the rest of her paintwork up to the same standard. I just had my runners restored. So I have a lot to keep me busy for a while.

I have taken lots of pictures to record the condition as she will be sold soon. But, being rust free, low mileage and having owned her so long - one previous owner who only did a few thousand before swapping it for a 156, given his family was expanding - she won’t be going cheap. If I get my price, yes, if not, I will keep her a while longer, living in the garage as she has for most of her life.

torquemeister

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2021, 05:04:47 PM »
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

Hi CHet

As others suggest Mace is your best bet for a timing chain kit. Its not the chain but the tensioners that wear due to poor oil pressure and or the wrong oil. My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference-  engine seems to run freer and a couple of degrees cooler. Go figure.
The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers.

Orque in Japan has some excellent headers worth checking out - I expect it will be a full engine out job to fit them so will replace mounts and timing chain at that time. Probably bring Bella over to the Mainland (Im in Tassie) and leave her with a specialist there for a week or two to get it done.

Here is the link to Orque (the Japanese are MAD about Alfas).

http://www.orque.co.jp/tuneup/alfa_159,brera,spider_1_1.htm

PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine.

Current Fleet:
2010 Brera V6 AWD Auto - Singapore
2008 Brera V6 AWD Auto - Tasmania
Previously:
1978 Alfetta GTV 2.0L - Adelaide

bazzbazz

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2021, 06:37:46 PM »
My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference

Sorry, no, it doesn't.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 06:40:28 PM by bazzbazz »
2004 Alfa 156 2.0 JTS Sportwagon (Patty)

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2021, 07:16:23 PM »
No! I don't believe Selenia makes that much difference either. Although it is a good oil, there are others on the market just as good, if not better. It depends what you demand from your oil and one can pay a lot for it. The fact that they can charge so much is because of the techknowlegy they invest, in producing it.

"PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine."

No one has said the 159 is a better platform to my knowledge. The Brera as pointed out is 150mm. shorter and that is where the difference lies.

The Berlina too was better than the Bertie insofar as being that bit longer wheelbase; but the same platform, it handled better. I am talking here of standard cars not heavily modified for racing. The Berlina was better balanced in my opinion because of the extral length.

This too is an aspect of the difference between the Brera and the 159. That 150mm. is significant. Also, if one looks at other  cars in history, small changes to wheelbases have made tremendous differences to handling.

The 159 Q4, 3.2 JTS unquestionably handles better than the Brera, imho.