Author Topic: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6  (Read 6043 times)

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Alfatango

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2021, 06:03:21 PM »
Love Davide Cironi's channel. His interview with the 156 touring car driver, f40 creator and gandini vids are my favourite.

The 159 did dominate bathurst ;D
https://www.drive.com.au/news/alfa-romeo-diesels-dominate-at-bathurst/
75 2.5 Track Car
116 2.0 GTV Road Car

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2021, 06:17:53 PM »

Impressive! The 2.4D is a great engine.

Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2021, 11:02:16 PM »
the V6 is getting very rare and I agree, it's a great car to drive. I'm reminded of the rarity when I have to source parts  :) I still enjoy it though. With the price of old Alfas in general pretty good, maybe one day, while I'm still alive???, it might even attract a decent resale price. The Alfa purists will always hate it, but the more practical minded will appreciate it. Mine is a manual also. At the moment I would say the Brera has aged better, but these things change with time. Adjusting the stance, as I have with mine, makes a huge difference to the look of the saloon. When I bought it back in 2008, to my eyes, the saloon was a better looking car than the Brera. Whenever I see a Brera though, I'm reminded of how much I want one. If only for the interior, let alone the ageless body.

The Mace cam performance claim clearly states "with a full exhaust" as I've pointed out on here before. What that actually means, only they know. As far as I know, on a 159, in Australia "a full exhaust" means thousands of dollars, importing headers from Auto Delta with fitting. When it comes time to do my timing chain, I'm going to look at adding their cams though. We'll be able to go nuts on here when that happens  ;D

Stay safe Ascari!

Stu
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2021, 01:09:11 AM »
Cheers Stu - you too, in fact we all need to be mindful, this thing hasnít gone away.

Brera hasnít really aged but there is some stiff competition out there, as far as two door coupeís are concerned.

Love the Spider, but it is big, almost tank size proportions.

But the 159? Itís not a Beemer look alikeí, as the Giulia is. My son drew better designs as a ten year old, than the Giulia!

However, the 159 is understated. Nothing stands out; it is an elegant car for its size. Not beautiful as is the original 156 with its ďPinchedĒ waist and uncluttered body. However, even  those who disparage Alfa, acknowledge the 159 looks great.


Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2021, 05:34:32 AM »
I meant the Mace cams by the way, not CB.

Did you also see noted on that thread that some guy had a 3.6 High Feature out of a Camaro with the Alfa heads on it? Wasn't clear if it was in an Alfa or just an idea though

Interesting comment about the Spider. I agree, it appears cumbersome these days, but again, I recall when buying my car from the dealership, drooling over the Spider that was there as it was so beautiful. It looked completely on at that time. Everything was in proportion. That's probably the thing I like the most about car designs, how some age well, some don't. Their shapes go in and out of fashion over the years and you can see it. They go through awkward periods and then eventually emerge again to look somehow modern. Of course the great thing about Alfa is because there aren't many around, their look doesn't date so quickly, like say an Audi or something. The Italians will always be the kings when it comes to motor art.

The 95-2005 era GTV is another good example. The coupe sort of looks like it might get there visually, but still isn't quite. I don't know much about that model but it appears to be good value for money. There's a tan colour spider in that model, that parks not far from my place and it looks perfect to me. Brand new condition and a real eye catcher. If I was willing to own a Spider, this one would be good enough to encourage me to go there.
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2021, 07:04:34 AM »
Nothing ever came of that 3.6 project to my knowledge. Itís a nightmare just getting spares for a standard 3.2 JTS. The ECU would create a headache and the MAF is difficult to get right just with extra breathing, let alone an extra 400 cc.

Would be interesting to see if it has been done.

My 3.0 GTV is a Ď98, had it from virtually new, now only 30,000 miles - continental holidays only. Having had a Alfetta 2.5 GTV6, again from almost new, sort of spoilt the 916 version for me. But the tan leather and the interior is superb. It is beautifully finished off and the Busso 3.0 is brilliant. But the front wheel drive compromises it, the rear is a bit bulbous and the drivers seat a bit high. Phase threes had their seats lowered by about an inch.

But there is no denying it is a great continental cruiser - eats the miles and the C.C. keeps one cool. On balance, I do love it, but not to the same degree as the Alfetta GTV 6.

But the Q4 of the 159 is in a league neither GTVís are  - it is so well planted. Both GTVís are edgy near the limit, although the Alfetta was more predictable. But the Q4, doesnít share that.

By comparison, it is boringly predictable, the Torsen four wheel system so good. And at my age, I have matured into boring predictability.

But, itís not fair to compare them in this way. All three cars are a cut, way above the rest.

My GTV 3.0, being Alfa Red has suffered with fading bumpers so they are in one of the bedrooms now, after being resprayed. The problem now is, I have got a hell of a job to do, bringing the rest of her paintwork up to the same standard. I just had my runners restored. So I have a lot to keep me busy for a while.

I have taken lots of pictures to record the condition as she will be sold soon. But, being rust free, low mileage and having owned her so long - one previous owner who only did a few thousand before swapping it for a 156, given his family was expanding - she wonít be going cheap. If I get my price, yes, if not, I will keep her a while longer, living in the garage as she has for most of her life.

torquemeister

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2021, 05:04:47 PM »
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

Hi CHet

As others suggest Mace is your best bet for a timing chain kit. Its not the chain but the tensioners that wear due to poor oil pressure and or the wrong oil. My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference-  engine seems to run freer and a couple of degrees cooler. Go figure.
The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers.

Orque in Japan has some excellent headers worth checking out - I expect it will be a full engine out job to fit them so will replace mounts and timing chain at that time. Probably bring Bella over to the Mainland (Im in Tassie) and leave her with a specialist there for a week or two to get it done.

Here is the link to Orque (the Japanese are MAD about Alfas).

http://www.orque.co.jp/tuneup/alfa_159,brera,spider_1_1.htm

PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine.

Current Fleet:
2010 Brera V6 AWD Auto - Singapore
2008 Brera V6 AWD Auto - Tasmania
Previously:
1978 Alfetta GTV 2.0L - Adelaide

bazzbazz

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2021, 06:37:46 PM »
My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference

Sorry, no, it doesn't.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 06:40:28 PM by bazzbazz »
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Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2021, 07:16:23 PM »
No! I don't believe Selenia makes that much difference either. Although it is a good oil, there are others on the market just as good, if not better. It depends what you demand from your oil and one can pay a lot for it. The fact that they can charge so much is because of the techknowlegy they invest, in producing it.

"PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine."

No one has said the 159 is a better platform to my knowledge. The Brera as pointed out is 150mm. shorter and that is where the difference lies.

The Berlina too was better than the Bertie insofar as being that bit longer wheelbase; but the same platform, it handled better. I am talking here of standard cars not heavily modified for racing. The Berlina was better balanced in my opinion because of the extral length.

This too is an aspect of the difference between the Brera and the 159. That 150mm. is significant. Also, if one looks at other  cars in history, small changes to wheelbases have made tremendous differences to handling.

The 159 Q4, 3.2 JTS unquestionably handles better than the Brera, imho. 

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2021, 07:39:37 PM »
Does anyone know for sure which Holden timing chain kits fit the 3.2 V6?  Found 2 type for the 3.6L Alloytec.  One with 3 Morse chain and one with 1 Morse chain and 2 roller chain.  Which one does the Alfa use? 

Sorry, can't work out how to post pictures for reference

Hi CHet

As others suggest Mace is your best bet for a timing chain kit. Its not the chain but the tensioners that wear due to poor oil pressure and or the wrong oil. My workshop uses Selenia and it does make a difference-  engine seems to run freer and a couple of degrees cooler. Go figure.
The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers.

Orque in Japan has some excellent headers worth checking out - I expect it will be a full engine out job to fit them so will replace mounts and timing chain at that time. Probably bring Bella over to the Mainland (Im in Tassie) and leave her with a specialist there for a week or two to get it done.

Here is the link to Orque (the Japanese are MAD about Alfas).

http://www.orque.co.jp/tuneup/alfa_159,brera,spider_1_1.htm

PS Whoever said the 159 has a better platform? Seriously - its the same as the Brera except the latter has a 150?mm shorter wheelbase - which suits me just fine.


"The real power boost comes with mods to induction and or exhaust.
I have a custom Wizard cat back system fitted - next will be to chuck out the cats and go for a full flow sports cat plus headers."

The 3.2 JTS valve timing denies the oportunity to benefit from serious gas flow techniques. So I am not sure what anyone means about real power boost. If one is serious about wanting to increase the power output of this engine - and it can be increased by a substantial amount, whilst remaining N/A, the camshafts have to be replaced.

There is no question there will be improvements with the changes suggested above, but not, in my opinion, sufficient to justify the expense.

Trust me, it is an expensive and time consuming exercise, with no easy solution. The 3.2 JTS in standard guise is a dog of an engine. Aside from the inherent problems such as block restrictions, poor oil flow/pressure distribution and small sump capacity without any baffles to prevent surge and a high oil pick - up snout, oil returning from the heads directly into the path of the rotating journals - whipping it into windage and adding to the transit time for the oil reurning to the sump, inadequate valve overlap due to ridiculous NVO means very little can be done to improve Scavenging.

Aside from the manifold cats, conjoining the two banks after the under - floor second twin cat, destroys any chance of really good gas flow.

However, If this is what folks see as the way forward, that's fine. But it's not something I would recommend.   

Storm_X

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2022, 02:21:27 PM »
The alfa 3.2 runs the GM block that was built here in Australia.
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Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2022, 09:45:52 PM »
Hi Stu!

I'm doing ok thanks! You?

I posted my latest Dynamometer run on the UK forum - "3.2 tuning". Still working -away on her, but enjoying every minute of it.

My Dyno run had been delayed as i still had problems relates to MAF. I bought a Petrol - Chip, which made it much simpler to rationalize the problem. But it has led me to investigate other areas - associated with it; still MAF related. As i was being cautious, I cranked the Chip down as I was concerned about running lean at the top end. I need not have worried as she was still rich, 11.5:1 at the top. however, cranking the chip down limited the torque to 300Nm.@6900rpm as it limits the MAF output voltage. The net result is 291PS@~6900rpm, but had been braver and left the chip switched out, it would have been higher, possibly 295 - 300. But I need to do some calculations first to give a reasonably accurate figure. No matter, she will be going back on the dyno in a few weeks, once I have addressed the issue of the MAF element, and crucially, the body/Sample/Sensor Tube.

The rub is, the MAF Amplifier is saturating (no further output voltage for increased airflow) and the Slatted Screen in front of the sensor tube causes Airflow restriction when the ECU goes into open loop (ignores the Lambdas) above circa 5 -6000rpm.

So a lot more investigation/modifications to be done. But sure as eggs are eggs, this thing will make 320bhp imho!

Stay safe,

Brian.

 

Stu159

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2022, 08:41:02 PM »
got it! Really looking forward to the end result mate. Thanks for the update

Stu
Now: 159 V6 Q4 (2006)
Past: Alfetta GTV 2000L (1980) chrome

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2022, 03:38:56 PM »
Attachments to illustrate modifications to the Alfa MAF, i.e. the Slatted - Screen over the Venturi Tube. Also, an A/B comparison between my modified 159 and my mates, pristine Q4 3.2JTS Brera.

The plot for my 159 was started circa 3000rpm as the Dynamometer cooling fans, blowing into the front of the car were upsetting the AFR at low rpm. It is thought this is as a result of the very large Positive Valve Overlap, the Colombo Bariani camshafts have introduced to the engine.

This A/B comparison was the latest, before the modifications to the MAF body. The Slatted - Screen, was removed as it seems to cause considerable air flow restriction, which only became apparent when the rpm was taken beyond the Alfa Stated limits. It can be seen on my previous torque plot, where the torque is "Limited" at the top end to ~ 300Nm. The fact that it does not fall below ~ 300Nm. can only be because, the natural torque of the engine is sufficiently strong enough to counter the airflow inertia the Slatted - Screen generates.

My belief is, if this airflow inertia was eliminated, torque would be naturally higher, hence my decision to remove it. Tests are continuing to optimize the "New Design/Modification", after which the 159 will be returning for a further Dynamometer run. The "Flat" response at the top end convinces me, the engine is well balanced, so I hope - after further consultation - to run the engine above 7000rpm, hopefully to see where the torque naturally starts to fade.

The Slatted - Screen is very restrictive. It is stated by Bosch that the MAF element only samples a small portion of airflow and the remaining air flowing through the body is unmetered. The ECU program accounts for the difference between the small sample and the remainder within it's program. My calculations indicate 25% passes though the Venturi and 75% through the remaining unmetered body.

It is my belief, that whilst the ECU/Lambdas are in closed loop, the ECU can compensate for the Slatted - Screen inertia. However, when in "Open Loop", the airflow inertia has a profound effect upon the engine torque at high rpm.

The next Dynamometer run, will confirm or not, if this is true!   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 08:09:57 PM by Ascari32 »

Ascari32

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Re: Timing chain kit for 3.2 JTS V6
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2022, 09:37:40 PM »
got it! Really looking forward to the end result mate. Thanks for the update

Stu

Stu,

Initially when I removed the Slatted - Screen, I believed if the airflow through the Venturi and the remainder of the MAF housing were the same, this would result in a leaner AFR, than the one recorded during my Dyno run.   

With the status quo, it is presumed the embedded ECU figure for the airflow through the unmetered section of the MAF represents 75% of the total airflow, the remainder;25%, being through the Venturi. This is a guess-timation, or at the very least, an assumption that the airflow inertia suffered through the Venturi is the same as that through the rest of the MAF body! But it cannot budget for any airflow inertia suffered, through the Venturi, due to the slatted screen's opposition to airflow. A factor which I maintain is non - linear.

With the removal of the slatted screen, the airflow through the Venturi and the rest of the body is much more accurately reflected wrt the embedded figure in the ECU program.   

Certainly the Cat seemed to come up to temperature quicker, the idle was quieter and the throttle response sharper still. However, it all seemed a little too "Raw"; crude, is probably more accurate with the lower end being a lot less smooth.

The Petrol Chip I bought seemed; at the time of removing the Slatted - Screen, redundant. However, after more tests, I came to realize that the AFR may well have been leaned - up, but I had not accounted for the possibility of an overall increase in airflow as a result of the removal of the restriction. That seems to make sense to me, but how could I reduce the airflow, whilst maintaining the AFR at the new figure - hypothesis at the moment as this will not be confirmed until the car is back on the dyno.

It seems the Petrol - Chip is a spin off from similar devices for Turbo Diesels and Turbo-ed Petrol vehicles. But it works on the premise that one has more to work with than is actually needed due to the forced induction.

This I believed to be true of my engine, curtesy of the camshafts, the headers and the exhaust system. But it seemed insufficient other than fine - trimming, meaning I was not seeing the kind of increased control I expected. However, it is a helpful tool.

However, after the removal of the Slatted - Screen, the airflow across the MAF sensor appears to have increased, sufficiently to substantially increased its output signal at tick - over as well as across the rpm range. This increase appears to be sufficient to create a greater range over which the Chip - Tune has control of the MAF Sensor Amplifier/Bridge.

It is going to be a few more weeks of trial and error before any real conclusions can be drawn and I can return for another Dyno run. However, in my conversation with Supersprint, they stated, a car fitted with their system should not be overly noisy. Until now, the level to me did not seem particularly noisy. However, the degree of adjustment the Petrol - Chip appears to have created, seems to have reduced the sound track even further. Perhaps nearer to what Supersprint were suggesting it ought to be !!!!

The way the Petrol - Chip works is, it alters the voltage across the Temperature sensitive Wheatstone Bridge, whilst at the same time maintaining the Operational Amplifiers "Null Point/Operating Threshold".

The voltage applied to the Wheatstone Bridge is a notional 5 volts, but should be more accurately described as a "Fuel Map Derived Voltage". So, it is not a fixed value of 5 volts. It is determined by the authors of the ECU software, when they are Mapping the ECU, chosen to produce a specific AFR across the entire range of the engine and is conditional upon the factors, sensors around the engine are indicating to the ECU.

Under ideal conditions, it is suggested by the manufacturers of the Petrol - Chip, it allows for fine tuning of the engine maps, without expensive and intrusive software editing of the ECU. It can be quickly removed and the original ECU program remains in tact. 

     
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 10:05:48 PM by Ascari32 »