Author Topic: stupid transaxle question  (Read 1917 times)

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poohbah

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stupid transaxle question
« on: January 14, 2020, 02:13:14 PM »
This might sound dumb but I'm wondering about the 2nd gear crunch on my GTV.

I had the gearbox out to replace a busted planetary gear in the diff about 3 years ago, and had 2nd gear synchro replaced then, which eliminated the crunch and made the gear change really stiff for a couple of months until things loosened up over time.

However, for quite a while now, it's been crunching again intermittently on changing into 2nd (mostly only downchange) if I'm too impatient on the shift or if the box is not warmed up.

The question I have is that it actually sounds and feels as though it's coming from the base of the gear stick, rather than from down back at the gearbox itself.

Is it just transferrred noise/vibration from the synchro, or could it actually just be something at the front end linkage/selector?

it's not terrible, and pretty easily managed through careful gear-changing, but I am curious.
Now:    1999 156 V6
             1981 GTV
Before: 2001 156 V6 (sadly cremated)

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 02:46:23 PM »
Hi poobah
Synchros don't last as long they use too, lower quality rings and hubs have been out for a decade or more.
Goetze the original manufacturer has reproduced rings in the last few years but you will pay twice the price for them.
You can find them on the OKP site.
 
https://www.okp.de/xtc2/105/115-Bertone/15-Gearbox/Gearshift/Synchronizing-ring-105-115-116-75-original-Goetze::20050.html?language=en&MODsid=041faaafa988aa4098e9efac1dad28b6

When changing synchro rings and hubs make sure the dog teeth are in good order otherwise new rings and hubs work harder and wear faster.
One other long shot is a torn donut, centrifugal force will open a damaged donut as it rotates and sometimes the driveshaft can foul the bottom of the gear linkage. If you have a donut failure at high revs it can even pull the car out of gear

Cheers Glen
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 03:06:55 PM by sportiva »
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele

poohbah

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 02:58:18 PM »
Cheers Glen, I hope its not a donut - I had them all replaced about 5 years ago!

It just seems a bit weird to me that it feels like its coming from a long way forward of the gearbox.
Now:    1999 156 V6
             1981 GTV
Before: 2001 156 V6 (sadly cremated)

Garibaldi

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 04:26:35 PM »
I replaced the synchros on my 1979 Alfetta GTV 3 years ago and never had a problem. Mind you I did buy the expensive Goetze rings. Even with these you still had to shift gears slowly until the transaxle warmed up.

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 04:47:22 PM »
poobah
I like transaxle questions but as the number of transaxle cars diminishes so do the questions. I even threw a baited line into the transaxle forum and did not get a bite.
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele

poohbah

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 05:07:58 PM »
The diminishing numbers are scary, as are the replacement panel/parts prices.

I saw an ad on FB yesterday offering an early GTV shell (that was largely rusted out forward of the A pillar) for $6k.

Mind you I did look longingly at the straight/solid rear valance ...

*correction - it's an '82 GTV and actually more of a  donor car than just a shell (rear hatch and bonnet already sold). Aside from aforementioned rust in front looks pretty solid.

But certainly gives me hope for the rising value of my licensed & running but *requires work '81!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:27:44 PM by poohbah »
Now:    1999 156 V6
             1981 GTV
Before: 2001 156 V6 (sadly cremated)

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 06:36:20 PM »
parts and panels?
last year my car was bumped at low speed by a bus, the left rear quarter panel suffered badly. Insurance replaced the panel but I had to search for it and found the panel in Australia at Planet 105. This year I replaced a left front guard (my fault). Again I found a panel here in Australia at Mille Miglia, both vendors went out of there way to make sure I received the panels undamaged. I was lucky to find these panels here in Australia and at half the price of what I was able to ship the equivalent from overseas.
There are very few new old stock Alfetta GTV body panels left anywhere in the world. I have owned the car for 25 years and the price of the replacement panels in the 12 months alone equates to about 85% of the original purchase price. I really have no interest in the value of Alfetta GTV's. It's the 25 years of ownership that keeps me wanting to repair it and continue driving it.     
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 06:41:27 PM by sportiva »
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele

poohbah

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 07:10:16 PM »
I've got no intention of selling mine either, but would be nice to be able to tell the missus that the ledger might get back into balance eventually! ;D
Now:    1999 156 V6
             1981 GTV
Before: 2001 156 V6 (sadly cremated)

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 07:21:09 PM »
You need to keep two sets of books ;)
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele

bonno

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 07:32:37 PM »
Hi Poohbah
In addition to the comments above, it might be worth considering to check for worn gear lever connections and link rods (worn bushings/pins).
now
83 Alfetta GTV
05 156 JTS manual
past
00 156 selespeed
72 1750 GTV

poohbah

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 07:52:51 PM »
cheers bonno. That's exactly where the sound/vibration seems to come from. Will have to have a poke around.

 
Now:    1999 156 V6
             1981 GTV
Before: 2001 156 V6 (sadly cremated)

martym00se72

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 05:37:16 PM »
If you don't already, you could learn to double de-clutch. I taught myself as a result of 2nd gear...
'83 GTV6 - 3.0 is in! Ohhh yeah!
'99 156 T-spark - Formula 98 ready!

What do people do with their old 2.5...?

Domenic

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2020, 09:22:17 AM »

Everyone is aware that the Goetze rings that are currently on the market from overseas vendors are not made by Goetze (Federal Mogul).

Goetze sold off the machines and tooling to produce the synchro rings back around 2004-2005. they even stopped making gasket sets. All they produce now are piston rings and cylinder liners.

So whoever is making them now is just stamping them with GOE and they are technically re-production/copies of the originals.

If you want original synchro rings, they are out there you just need to find them, sometimes they can be had for cheaper than the new production items that can be purchase online.

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 05:45:25 PM »

Everyone is aware that the Goetze rings that are currently on the market from overseas vendors are not made by Goetze (Federal Mogel)

 
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele

sportiva

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Re: stupid transaxle question
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 05:53:54 PM »
Everyone
https://classicalfa.com/gb002-1-gearbox-synchro-ring-original-goetze-brand/
Or
https://www.okp.de/xtc2/105/115-Bertone/15-Gearbox/Gearshift/Synchronizing-ring-105-115-116-75-original-Goetze::20050.html?language

Is it that companies are making lesser quality products with quality names stamped on the boxes.
Just like FIAT has done to Alfa Romeo since 1986.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 06:07:07 PM by sportiva »
3.0 GTV6 Fiat Free
156JTS

ex
75 2.5
2.0 Alfetta Sportiva #22
1.8 Alfetta
1.2 alfasud
2 75 parted out
15 alfettas parted
10 gtv parted
5 alfasuds parted
156 sele