Author Topic: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200  (Read 13803 times)

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Ahsoka

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3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« on: October 13, 2018, 08:50:41 PM »
As above and seeing as the run around V6 156 I had threw a belt I now have a dummy set up engine .
After seeing the cam belt routing and tensioner first hand and being suitably disgusted went and visited a mate and came  back with  4 1UZFE cam pulleys , the tensioner and tensioner pulley , the bottom crank drive pulley and the increase wrap pulleys .
Best thing is the cam pulleys themselves are only 1.5 mm bigger in diameter so will fit nicely !!
40 teeth on the Alfa versus 48 teeth on the Lexus .
The other bonus is that the pulley mount on the Alfa camshaft is bigger than the Lexus cam shaft so it would be quite easy to have the Alfa cams cylindrically ground to match the the lexus pulleys with enough meat for a locating shoulder as well or do I use the back part of a vernier cam system and mount the Lexus pulley to that ??
Tending to go have the cams ground to match the end of the Lexus camshafts .
Having now had a bit of a play I will be able to use two pulleys to increase the wrap on the inner cam pulley instead of Alfas one .
It also looks like the Lexus tensioner will be relatively easy to adapt as well .
Seeing as I will have more wrap the tensioner will not need to be anywhere near as aggressive as the Alfa unit and it then follows that the belt will get a far easier time of it accordingly .
Do not know about the bottom pulley yet as Alfa have a 40mm crank nut and my biggest socket is 36 .
But why ????????
I have worked on so many different engines and so many different makes and have never come across a crank nut or bolt so big on a car engine .
As an example the crank bolt on a Toyota 2JZ 6 cylinder engine on which I very recently refreshed the timing belt on  is 22mm . 
Any how will post up some pics so people can see what I'm up to .

105gta

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 09:46:37 PM »
Before you buy the wrong socket for the crank it's a 41mm!
I suspect the reason for being so large is hat the  engine is externally balanced and therefore the pulley has a counter weight in it, which leads to the crank actually being rather thick compared to most other brands to ensure the imbalance of the pulley is thoroughly transferred to the rest of the crankshaft.
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Pseudonym

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 09:53:33 PM »
You know, I once entertained the notion of putting the 164 V6 into my MX22 and literally every piece of feedback was along the lines of "But JZ, but UZ, but GR"... I guess people either appreciate good music or they don't

Pictures would be excellent, particularly what bell housing and box setup you end up with.

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Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 12:22:50 AM »
Thanks for that 41 mm it is .
Its not that I do not like 2J's or 1uz's it's just I want a lighter more compact engine , I only want/need about 240 HP so don't see the point of having  an engine in there that can handle 800 HP and no 90% V8's , a nice 6 throw 60%  all alloy V6 will do just nicely .
One of the probs with a 2J is that if I want a 6 speed gearbox I have to put a V160 Supra box in it and they are 5 grand plus...way too rich for me .
I could go on and on but I will be using the standard J160 6 speed box so no gearbox mounts need to be made and no drive shaft mods , I will reflash the Alfa ECU so no aftermarket ECU which is $1500 plus tuning and so on and so on .
The Busso V6 will give me 240 HP which is plenty when you consider the standard 2 litre 6 makes 153 HP !!
Will talk more with some pics tomorrow .

Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 09:53:04 PM »
You can see from the first pic that the Alfa camshaft end can easily be ground to match the 1uz camshaft end .
In the second pic that's the 1uz pulleys in place and they clear .
In the third pic you can see approx where the tensioner will sit .
For the center bearing pulley that increases the wrap between the heads I will remove the alloy webbed plate and replace it with a solid piece 60/71 plate , this will enable me to drill and tap where ever I like and then use two bearings instead of one to increase wrap to the inner cam belt pulleys .
having now removed the the crank pulley and cam drive the inner diameter is 37 mm while the 1uz pulley is only 35 mm...bonus , very easy to bore the 1uz pulley out and re-key to match .
I will also use the existing tensioner bolt holes to bolt an 8mm piece of plate  on which can then be drilled to suit the 1uz tensioner .
I can now see that this mod is entirely possible with basic engineering ,the most expensive thing will be having the Alfa cam ends ground to match the 1uz cam ends .
Starting to get pretty excited .
The 1uz teeth will be 48/24 against the Alfa 40/20 and as there will be more wrap less tension will be required plus the 1uz system allows for a bit of give while maintaining a constant tension on the belt .
All good things and I would expect to get 100,000 K's out of a belt like an engine should .
There are lots of cases of Toyota/Lexus engines getting well over 200,000 K's  out of a belt before they where changed and I personally know of an LS400 getting 260,000 K's out of a belt and it was still running just fine !!
 I have found a 3.0 engine and now just have to negotiate for it , then I can rip the cams out and really get into this project .

Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 09:57:53 PM »
Second pic .

Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 09:59:00 PM »
Third .
As a note the bearing you see is a 1uz one that screwed straight in !!

Pseudonym

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2018, 09:24:58 PM »
That sounds like a solid plan, I assume the 1uz belt is a bit wider as well? I don't know enough about these engines to say whether or not decreasing belt tension could have any ill effects but the dual pulley modifications sound very sensible, it's a shame there isn't as big an aftermarket for the busso blocks as there is for the Nord engines, this sounds like a very useful project. I've always loved my Japanese engines but they can't beat that V6 sound, anyways, best of luck

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poohbah

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2018, 11:49:56 PM »
I get the impression there is a pretty big aftermarket scene for Busso motors in Europe - especially weird places like Poland, Czech Republic etc. Check out some of the Busso lovers pages on FB - mostly European, and seem to do plenty of full fat engine mods, swaps, cross-marque transplants.
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CitroŽnbender

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2018, 07:03:18 AM »
Iím interested to hear more about editing the ECU. Lots more, ideally.

Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2018, 10:02:21 AM »
I currently run a Lexus  IS200 as my go to work and back car and I bought it at 146,000 K's , initially the factory service life of the belt was 150,000 K's and the weekend after I bought it I was doing the usual checks that one does after buying a secondhand car.
I decided to remove the top cam belt cover as a check not really worried as the service interval was 150 K .
Holly molly , the belt was 7 mm wide !!
3 years or so after the car was new they reduced the service interval to 100,000 K's , the bush that the tensioner arm swings on wears fractionally and it moves the belt sideways and it rubs itself to death up against the inside of the steel cover....there was 6 tonnes of black cotton wool inside the cover !!
My point is that even with a belt that was a third of the width it should have been it still did not break !!!!!
If you design in the correct amount of wrap you do not need a lot of tension on the cam belt .
I also believe that the extra teeth on the 1uz also help with belt longevity and yes the belt is wider .
We will see .
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:15:00 AM by Ahsoka »

Duk

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 06:19:03 PM »
I'm not sure why you'd want to put an Alfa engine in a Toyota, especially as Toyota do make some very decent and readily available V6 engines. But to each their own.

Music wise. From what I've seen, Toyota number their cylinders differently to what Alfa did. But the way the cylinder firing order progresses thru the engine is exactly the same as the Alfa engine.
They are both a 60* V6 engine.
The actual noises should be similar if the inlet manifold, exhaust manifold/extractors, exhaust system and camshaft specifications are close.

But fixing Alfa timing belt related issues is, in my opinion, a very worthy cause.
By following solid engineering practices, creating a reliable, long term durable and easily (and well priced after the initial outlay) serviceable set up to replace what Alfa did should be straightforward.
Really good belt wrap, as you've mentioned, a good belt tooth profile, decent belt width and well designed, durable and simple belt tensioner are the key.
It's not rocket surgery unless you're Italian...................
At the end of the day, love them as much as we do, there isn't anything amazing about the Alfa V6. They don't have any real challenges about them. Their peak engine speeds are nothing amazing (lets be honest, unless you've made significant changes, you're not revving it past 6500-7000rpm!), but they have a poor reputation for drive belt life and cam timing integrity (more so the 12 valve engines).
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The Long Standing Conundrum: 1990 75 V6 (Potenziata)............. What to do, what to do???

sportiva

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2018, 07:44:34 PM »
Duk is right Toyota engines are brilliant for any of the Toyota family of model or make put a Toyota engine in your Lexus or a Lexus engine in your Toyota. please don't put a Busso engine in your Toyota [Lexus] family sedan!! that would be an insult to Mr Busso who designed two of the best and long-lived engines Alfa Romeo ever built
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 08:06:25 PM by sportiva »
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CitroŽnbender

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2018, 10:12:04 PM »
Next youíll be saying I canít put orange juice in my coffee.

Ahsoka

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Re: 3.0 24 Valve V6 into my Lexus IS200
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2018, 11:06:40 PM »
The standard VVTI interference IS200 engine only makes 153 HP
153 HP !!!
The engine is also relatively weak .
I would like approx 250 HP , that would be more than enough for me , that's a 100 more than I have at the moment .
This is the second car and takes me to work and back so budget is limited .
I had basically resigned myself to fitting a Merc 2.3 supercharger fitting a return fuel line and using a raising rate fuel return regulator and with that I would get an extra 50 to 60 HP safely using the stock ECU.
No turbos !!!!
I will not use an engine or do a mod that requires an aftermarket ECU...budget again no 2 grand for that kind of carry on .
No 90 degree V8's , too little space too much expense with exhaust la la la !!
NO Toyota 1J or 2J , too much money too expensive to retain a 6 speed gearbox and ECU thing again .
Plus I ONLY want 250 HP do not need to run an engine that is strong enough and heavy enough to carry 800 HP .
I like my small 6 cylinder engine so no four cylinders either .
An IS200 with a 2j in it or the IS300 do not handle as nicely due to the extra weight of the bigger engine .
I wanted a 60 degree all alloy V6...nice , lighter , shorter and still a 6 .
Other Toyota/Lexus V6's either too big or too complicated !!
Direct port injection blah blah ECU thing again , no manual gearboxs for the front wheel drive Aurion/Camry V6's blah blah .
So , knew about the earlier 3.0 12 valve Busso V6's , did a bit of research and found  out about the later 24 valve engines and during this came across a guy in England with a similar mindset to mine looking for an engine for his Dax and he went right into it and wait for it settled for a 3.0 24 Valve Busso !!
Can be found here http://www.alfadax.com/ makes good reading .
So a light all alloy V6 that is strong , responds well to tuning , I can use the stock Alfa ECU  , IT IS VERY VERY PRETTY , and is special as it has a SIX THROW CRANK  which hardly any mass produced V6's have and that is why it sounds so different to most other V6's, they all have two conrods on each throw also like most V8's .
I can use my standard 6 speed box so no costly special drive shaft or rear gearbox mount the shifter stays stock , bolt an alloy plate to the side engine mount studs and fab up the two mounts and the engine is sitting in place .
I have done many many engine transplants and this one will be relatively simple engineering wise .
I will make my own gearbox adaptor , do my own engine mounts using an alloy plate bolted to the engine that will then accept a stock mount...hopefully and will do my own exhaust as well.
With a bit of solid engineering logical thought put into the cam belt system I will have a very special car for about 2 grand spent on the engine swap.
I will have saved $1400 in not having to put a single mass flywheel into the IS200 as to replace the dual mass is $2800 !!
Yes I know I will have to put a new clutch on the Busso but will use a standard flywheel .
I already have a spare IS200 car to set it all up which I obtained for free , I have another J160 gearbox which cost $200 and now I have a 2.5 24 valve V6 engine to use as a mock up which at the moment owes me - $200 as I have wrecked a 156 out and made so far $200 more than I paid for it !!
I will also do ALL my own wiring as I have done many times before .
A well set up lowered IS200 with a 240 odd HP Busso engine in it will be something very special indeed !!
2J's and V8's have been done to death in the IS200 and as my dad always said " the only reason to be different , is to be better !! "
I have now located a good 3.0 24 valve engine with flywheel , ECU , engine loom and engine bay wiring for a $1000 so its all staring to come together .
The cost of having the 1uzfe cam end pulley mount ground onto the end of the Busso cams will be about $60 for each camshaft...again not expensive .
I will be able to machine the bottom crank pulley to size myself as the 1uzfe crank pulley inner diameter is 2 mm smaller !!
I will have to get the keyway broached but again not a big job !!