Author Topic: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers  (Read 842 times)

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johnl

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 12:58:09 PM »
Interesting reading John, but I don't really have a competitive urge. 

Maybe not, but the comments are still pertinent I think.

Have you investigated the availability of Bistein B8 dampers for the rear? The valving is the same as the B6, but the damper is shorter, intended for use with lowering springs. If fitted with stock height springs then you would have some 'additional' bump travel, and somewhat reduced rebound travel (keeping in mind a possibility of the coils becoming 'coil bound' at full 'droop', though if this occured you could add extra bump stop thickness).

This probably wouldn't be a good thing for the front end (where we want to minmise weight transfer between both front wheels as much as possible, to limit understeer), but not so bad for the rear end, keeping in mind that FWD cars with stiffened suspension (e.g. racing cars) often have so much rear roll stiffness that they will corner hard with the inside rear wheel hanging in the air. I've heard it said that for a FWD car it can actually be a 'good thing' to reduce the "excessive" stock amount of 'droop' motion at the rear end...

FWIW, the 20mm rear ARB on my 147 is so stiff that on some driveway entrances (taken at an angle) I can feel the 'inside rear' wheel lift off the road, the car then momentarily 'teetering' on the 'outside rear' and 'inside front' diagonal axis. That the front end has a stiffer GTA ARB probably adds to this affect. It's never a problem. With such a stiff rear ARB, it's not unlikely that the inside rear suspension never reaches full droop during hard cornering (even if the inside rear wheel lifts off the road, which I'm not sure it does, but possibly), the high stiffness of the ARB strongly coupling the inside rear suspension with the 'bump' motion of the outside rear suspension not permitting it to do so.

Regards,
John.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 01:16:10 PM by johnl »

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 02:03:22 PM »
Itís only the fronts that are vexing me. Iíll press DT again just in case they can scare up a set of B6. Else my least cost options from this point forward are in order, B4, Koni Yellow, Koni FSD.

The preload squeezing standard springs into short shocks is IMO excessive (Iíve done this as a quick fix once before to a 147), and Iím not going to lower the car. So B8 are out.

My desire for B6 shocks is based on the 147 Sele I fitted with same, it's far from a perfect ride but streets ahead of standard (which in slightly-worn guise is pretty average); I want durability - something that was not a strength of the OEM kit, have no desire to tinker and won't be changing wheels or tyres from the standard spec.

Should I make a crap decision ultimately on the shocks, I'll say as much - even if it's carefully worded - and won't hold others responsible for my final choice. It's not an iPhone battery. ;)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 05:25:34 PM by CitroŽnbender »

johnl

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 01:21:06 PM »
Itís only the fronts that are vexing me. Iíll press DT again just in case they can scare up a set of B6. Else my least cost options from this point forward are in order, B4, Koni Yellow, Koni FSD.

Without ever having tried them, I suspect you'll find the rear B4s to be at best 'OK'. They are more or less 'stock replacement', and IMO the stock rates for the rear dampers are acceptable, if not quite 'there' for a 'sports' oriented suspension (cannot say that for the stock rate front dampers, which were just hopeless and couldn't be tolerated...).

I still have 'stock replacement' TRWs on the rear of my car, and while I'd prefer something a bit 'taughter', they are not so bad that I can justify replacing them with something better (and considerably more expensive). In double wheel compression / extension they do bounce a little bit (e.g. speed humps, and similar 'obstacles' that involve both rear wheels simultaneously). I most notice their deficiency when there is a full load of passengers, or even just one passenger in the rear seat. I suspect other brand 'stock rated' rear dampers would be fairly similar (but cannot say for certain).

I have no experience with the FSDs, though I've read mixed reports of them fitted to various cars. Trying to be all things to all drivers and not quite managing to be so is the impression I have (though many reports are good, some are not quite so good). If you can stretch to the 'Yellows', then I think that will likely be your best choice, thay can be quite soft or quite stiff, adjusted for personal taste. Other than that, there is the 'coilover' option with a number of different products available from relatively cheap to quite expensive, and probably a lucky dip of stiffness, quality and effectiveness (I wouldn't know where to start...). From what I glean on the interweb, cheaper 'coilovers' can tend to be somewhat over-springed, somewhat under-damped, and somewhat short lived. I'm sure there are some good ones out there...

My desire for B6 shocks is based on the 147 Sele I fitted with same, it's far from a perfect ride but streets ahead of standard (which in slightly-worn guise is pretty average); I want durability - something that was not a strength of the OEM kit, have no desire to tinker and won't be changing wheels or tyres from the standard spec.

It's not just "in slightly-worn guise", even when brand new the front stock rated TRWs were just appallingly bad. I can't say for sure whether this would be the same for other 'stock rated' brands, but I'd bet it more than likely would be. It amazes me that such poorly rated front dampers were fitted in the first place...

My issue with the B6 is that I think they are still just a bit too soft in rebound. This is only from my experience with B6s on the front suspension, rears may be better?

Regards,
John.

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2018, 01:54:30 PM »
I'll recap. 

Already the rear B6s are set aside for me, and I have no plan to change this detail. 

I have these on the Sele car, they are quite firm (at the expense of some ride comfort two-up) but I am confident they would cope well with heavier loads.  I once ferried four elderly women home in the manual 147 after their Corolla was written off in front of me by an apprentice sparkie running a red light, and the suspension bottomed out several times whilst we were five up.

The front B6s, now unavailable, made up $374 on the order without freight in consideration. 

A change to Koni yellows would add $90 to my $374, and a change to FSD would add a hundred to the $374.  I note the great disparity between apparent warranty on Koni yellow and FSD here and in the US.  Disappointing, to say the least.

To buy front B6s elsewhere if they are actually still in stock would cost me $570 minimum, this figure will almost certainly  exceed $600 by the time I suffer a rubbish exchange rate on the back credit from DT and the card provider's 1.5% international payment fee on the new sale. 

johnl

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2018, 03:52:57 PM »
I should have been clearer.

I suspect that you would probably find B4 Bilsteins to be a regrettable choice for the front suspension (though not too bad at the rear, if one had to have them). This is only premised upon the B4 being 'stock replacement', likely to be quite similar to other brands that are also stock replacement, i.e. have fairly similar bump / rebound stiffness to the OE dampers (Boge?), which are not up to the job.

I think 'Yellows' will be a good choice for the front suspension, possibly better than the B6 due to the tailorable stiffness. I also think B6 are very likely to be a good choice for the rear suspension, considering that stock rated dampers aren't too bad in the rear, and the B6s will be quite appreciably stiffer than that.

Regards,
John.

Domenic

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2018, 05:37:55 PM »
Hmm....

Well we've just placed a stock order with Bilstein and the B6 shocks for the 147/156 are available, unless we ordered the last ones....

We won't have the stock until end of October.

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2018, 06:01:26 PM »
That is interesting! Thank you!

I suspect DT buy through some indirect arrangement, maybe their intermediary is dropping the line - excerpt of their latest comms quoted following.

Quote
We have been informed by our suppliers that the B6 ALFA ROMEO VARIOUS SPRING-BEARING DAMPER FRONT 24-027960 has now unfortunately been discontinued, therefore we can no longer supply this item.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 06:04:10 PM by CitroŽnbender »

Craig_m67

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2018, 07:08:31 PM »
Why the show stopper with changing supplier??
Just cancel the original order (they can't supply in full!) and go with somebody who can; Bilstein Aust., Domenic, eBayUK.

... plenty of good suppliers out there.
'66 Duetto (lacework of doom)
'73 1600 GT Junior (ensconced)
'03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon (daily driver)

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 07:56:38 PM »
The $200-odd difference if I change suppliers. My all-in price was very keen, and I want to ensure it remains good value.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:59:27 PM by CitroŽnbender »

johnl

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2018, 12:46:31 PM »
 Here:
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-andamp-gt/368138-bilstein-b8s-first-impresson-3.html

'Fruity' is suggesting that the B6 drought may break soon...

Regards,
John.

alanm

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2018, 03:36:01 PM »
CB, my son is in exactly the same situation with DT.

I think he has been told by Bilstein UK that the B12 kits will be available again next month.
We are thinking that they should be a reliable source of info given that they are a dedicated seller of Bilstein products.
I hope we're right...

https://www.bilstein-shocks.co.uk/

Why Citroenbender? In my mind I am going through many scenarios.
Present
1987 75 TS Rosso
2001 GTV V6 Nero
2001 156 V6 Monza Rosso
Past
1986 GTV6 Grand Prix
1988 33

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2018, 06:14:52 PM »
I've bent two by pilot error, been rear ended twice, T-boned in a rather spectacular hit/run and further to all that, once bought an already bent CitroŽn. Quite a boring set of reasons, really.

Shocks have been chosen and the order locked in, I'll do a "reveal" once the parcel is received.  :)

I couldn't accept the possibility of waiting for a definite maybe (as per the Sam Goldwyn quote), a large portion of my life is presently taken up courtesy of people putting things off unnecessarily, even unhelpfully. And if my shocks choice is crap, I'll say so and why I think this.  Even so, it will inevitably be better than what is there now.  8)

bazzbazz

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2018, 06:33:03 PM »
I've bent two by pilot error

Funny, when I read that this image of you popped into my head -



 ;D ;D ;D
ON THE SPOT ALFA
Mobile Alfa Romeo & Fiat Diagnostic/Repair/Maintenance & Servicing
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2004 Alfa 156 2.0 JTS Sportwagon (Patty)
2000 Alfa 156 2.0 TS Selespeed with Sports Pack
(Eibach 2.5 Lowering Springs)
(Bilstein Sports Dampers )

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2018, 06:42:20 PM »
Better gnashers than mine.  :P

Craig_m67

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Re: Discontinuation of 147/156 Bilstein B6 Dampers
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2018, 07:33:39 PM »
Thereís a low mileage set available on ausalfa....

http://www.ausalfa.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30431
'66 Duetto (lacework of doom)
'73 1600 GT Junior (ensconced)
'03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon (daily driver)