Author Topic: 164 3.0 V6 track project  (Read 23398 times)

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Cool Jesus

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164 3.0 V6 track project
« on: December 18, 2013, 03:06:53 PM »
Seeking advise from fellow racers. My mate and I have recently acquired an 89 manual 164 as per heading. Looking initially at supersprints to start us off. Car is unregistered though and will remain so. I'm ok with following the AROCA sprints checklist, but...
What category vehicle do I have?
What should I check or change initially to hopefully ensure it will last on its first outing?
What Cams category does it fit? As I'd like to also join in with the veloce guys at some stage.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 11:37:26 AM »
Oh well, race set-up must either be a trarity with FWD or a state secret  ???

Anyhow, may as well diarize my adventures on yet another project for entertainment and to give members something the read.

Had been contemplating some track work and trying to figure out how to go about it, had the '78 Alfetta GTV, which is slowly but surely rusting away out in the whether over the last year and a half. Its in the way at the mechanics shop and need it gone, so why not throw it on the track. Found myself with another Alfa nut, who posted on 'the other Alfa forum' that he was looking for a team mate to share the costs of some track day fun. So we teamed up and found that the GTV was going to be too much work until he found a 2.5L Alfa 75 in Victoria. Purchased at $350 it was a bargain, only we eventually had to let it go as transporting it back here was beyond what we wetre looking at for the team budget.

Anyhow, as luck would have a new member threw up a give away 164 3.0L and I turned up that day with a trailer to give him no time to rethink his generosity. Anyhjow, car was about to be scarpped by council and had languished in te open for near 6 years.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 11:43:54 AM »
Unfortunately it was a non runner, although we were promised it was a daily driver which was stopped being driven due to a clutch problem. Prior owner threw in an extra set of rims, workshop manual and a box of various service items and parts, happy days. Threw it onto the trailer (thanks Chris ;) ) and off to its new home. After a jet wash and clay bar, the exterior came up surprisingly well. With a wax, one would not have even known it had been languishing outside. Interior wasnt in bad nick either, pity its been all  pulled out.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 11:54:05 AM »
So we're now just going over the Alfa cleaning and checking the components, just to at least make sure that it gives us a full day at the track on its first outing. I'm a bit of a stick in the mud about grim in my cras, and there is certainly no alck of it with this one. Everything just seems to be caked in oil, grease and grim. So I'm slowly cleaning it off. The body thankfully is solid, which isn't surprising for this fully galvinzied Alfa. Brackets and such have styarted to rust and they're slowly being cleaned and repainted/sealed.

The clutch was certainly stuffed. Master cylinder leaking from seals and feed hose, and the slave cylinder seized solid by rust. Have been chewing Dom's ear off at Italian Automotive for component refurbishment and have ended up purchasing seals and a new slave. My race partner is fabricating a solid feed tube for the master, which due to its location, the plastic pipe has a tendancy to fail from exhaust heat. We're also relocating the clutch hydraulic feed which ran directly past the exhaust. Not interested in boiling the oil for the brakes, so we're installing a seperate fed reserviour away from the exhaust.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 01:08:22 PM by Cool Jesus »
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 01:15:04 PM »
Just another quick note on the 164 clutch master cylinder. Had a hell of a time trying to figure out my options in repair/replacement. Most owners too have been pulling their hair out and as you would have it, the RHD version is the problem child.

Once the cylinder returns from being refurbished I'll throw a few more photos on and explain the differences between LHD and RHD versions of the cylinder and what can and can't be interchanged between them. Suffice to say at this stage a clylinder for a LHD 164 can't be used on a RHD version without considerable modifications which renders the swap unworthy.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 01:30:26 PM »
The blue velour, plush interior removed, dash and front door arm rests will remain.

PS, any 164 owners out their after interior parts, your more than welcome to collect for a nominal (labour) fee such as $10 for head liner - I'm more interested in passing them on rather than binning them - (PM me). I was surprised at how easy it was to remove the dash by one person.

During the strip down I was also able to confirm that this vehicle was an Alfa from Hong Kong, later imported by Brian Foley's dealership. Found $2.20 HKD in the carpets and numerology indicates that 220 is a message that with ongoing positive expectations, thoughts, affirmations and visualizations, you will manifest your expected outcomes and desired results. Friggin awesome. Watch out guys and gals here we come  ::)
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Dna Dave

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 09:27:20 PM »
It will be different from everything else out there, good on u, can u get LSD's for these?.

That will be a major improvement, with suspension set up, pm me if interested and I will give u the set up I had on my 156 gta race car, should be very similar to what u need.

Are you planning on coming to the Vra day at Wakefield this Friday?

Good luck

David
1984 GTV6 3.0L South Africian (charcoal)
1991 Alfa 75 Potenziata
1985 GTV6 South Africian Rep (white) 3.2L gta motor
1976 Alfetta gt (not your average gt)
2009 Alfa Mito VRA Racecar

Past,

Not that many 😜

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 09:46:24 PM »
This Friday Dave! Nooo, above photos are current mate. With time and money, I'm hoping for 2nd round of Aroca supersprints. Yeah, I haven't found any other 164s on a track for some inspiration and ideas other than the procar dragster. Found 156, 155, 75, even some current models. As you say should be very similar to these fwd racers.

Pm sent
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2014, 02:09:04 PM »
Well, I stand corrected as far as nothing out there re racing 164s, this interweb is a vast sea of data. There's a couple of pics, but nothing for inspiration with set ups. They're mainly the 24v engine too, as opposed to our 12v.

Now LSD, still researching, however I'm thinking that our project has a standard diff sans LSD. I have an enquiry sent to 'Quaife' who manufacture a diff for our beast. There is a compatible Q2 version aswell currently $925 USD @ Alfissimo. Evenso, these diffs for the 164 are going to be difficult for us to source (if at all) and at a reasonable price (unless an alternative can be modified in some minor way)

Yes, the LSD would be awesome, but I'd be looking at upwards of a grand $$$$ to self install. This ball park figure seems to be standard with any upgrading, suspension, brakes, fuel delivery, damn it! Not exactly the budget I'm looking at just yet, definately in the near future. So keeping to an entry level supersprint runner, I think we're content to just give her a major service and inspection and put her on the track sooner, rather than later. Even just doing this will cost some coin and I'll post my fixes while I'm at it.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

giulia_veloce

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2014, 04:06:42 PM »
Hiya Cool Jesus

Do the best you can at the budget you can afford.

Lighten the car as much as you can= goodbye air conditioning including under the dash unit + compressor,,,sound deadening etc and get it on the track and evaluate it.

Don't worry about all the go fast bits yet,,,just install some good brake pads and go for it.
Worry more about the cooling system and hoses + cam belt at this stage
After a few events, (supersprints),,after you get faster,and you REALLY like the car,,,then you can think about go fast goodies like track tyres,diff=,,if you have wheel spin out of corners,,,,suspension= springs + shocks.Etc Etc Etc.

Some of us can have just as much fun in a standard car.
If you are after trophys  on your first event,maybe you wont get one...If you really want one,,I will buy one for you.
Just get the car out there and have some fun.
Maybe you are a good driver,,But are you a race track driver ??
It might scare you.
Do the best you can on your budget,evaluate it,and see if it has potential.
The previous owner of your car did pretty good with a bog standard car
And it will be good to see a 164Q out there.

Just my 2 lire worth.

Robert

Oh,,I just spoke to your mechanic who im sure will give you the same advice.

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 08:52:13 PM »
Lighten the car as much as you can= goodbye air conditioning including under the dash unit + compressor,,,sound deadening etc and get it on the track and evaluate it.

Don't worry about all the go fast bits yet,,,just install some good brake pads and go for it.
Worry more about the cooling system and hoses + cam belt at this stage

That's our team constitution at the moment. I just want to get it out there so bad, but I'm also wanting it to last a day of full throttle action. It's very easy to get caught up talking about go fast bits. My race partner and I take turns at being each other's handbrake. So as a form of therapy I'm cleaning and refurbishing bits and pieces as I'm pulling things apart.

Yes, the AC and heater with associated bits was the very first thing I pulled out. Well, maybe second after the interior.

But I'm a step closer with my cams licence and car number. Yep cool Jesus is a 169er  8).
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2014, 09:06:21 PM »
Looks like it was great weather for Wakefield, would have loved to have debut the car there  :'(
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 11:19:14 AM »
Have had a bsuy few days at the back end of the project. By the end, we'll virtually have a completely refurbished rear suspension and brakes. To say the least, it was in a sorry state. The cross member was only held in place with one bolt with rust, grime and muck in abundance. Somewhere along its travels a large solid object found its way under the car and had smashed the cross member and one of the cross bars in its trajectory beneath the car. No doubt this would have had some effect as to the lost of the bolts and heaven knows what the alignment was like. Anyhow, all cleaned up and straightened, the items now fit nicely.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 11:35:28 AM »
Waiting on a seal kit to arrive before the rear brakes are reinstalled, I started playuing around with the rear proportioning valve. Iniotially I just cleaned it up but curiosity got the better of me. Playing around with it I found that the plunger which the suspension acts on wouldn't move. A quick search on the web and I found it wasn't a difficult item to home service, so out it came.

The brake lines connect diagonally into the valve. Why? I have no idea, the valving works on hydraulic pressure and I'm still perplexed as to how its supposed to work in this diagonal configuration. I'm assuming that reagrdless of which side the pressure is on the pistons will move in and out to equalize untilt the internal seals block the pressure. Anyhow, you can see that the two pistons protrude from the face. Missing from the pic is the fork plunger, which freely moves in and out from the centre hole and had a plate on it to act on the pistons/plungers. The pistons are normally inj the inwards position, held there by the internal spring. Spring pressure is overcome by hyraulic pressure to push the pistons out against the plate, which moves the fork out against the suspension torsion rod. Dependant on the height of the suspension to body, determines the allowable movement of the fork, hence the pistons. So the closer the suspension is to the body, the valve psitons have less allowable distance to travel. Which equates to great brake pressure at the calipers.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS

Cool Jesus

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Re: 164 3.0 V6 track project
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2014, 11:59:31 AM »
Although not in the previous photos, there is a thick brass bush ring that sits atop each valve piston, held in place by the two 10mm allen head covers. These screws are torqued at FT and have a copper washer as a seal. The brass bush rests against the screw and the rear piston seal against the brass bush. The rear brake lines feed into this area below the seals and you can then see the front brake lines feed into the valve just above the front seal. The larger brake lines are the feed and the smaller lines are the outlets to the rear calipers left and right.

Both pistons were lightly rusted and the center plunger was siezed with muck and dried out grease. Gave them all a good clean and very, very light sand with 1200grit including the bores. It all now moves in and out freely. The internal seals looked new and perhaps may have been a silcone based rubber. Evenso, unable to locate a replacement kit on the web I treated them like the holy grail and hopefully they wont leak on me. The rear seal is loose in its housing and the front seal (were a leak is most likely, is snug and held in shape with a dish. Anyhow, made sure they were reinsatlled with ample silicone grease and the bores caked in copper grease to ward off any future iron oxide. The boot protecting the fork plunger and front face did have a small hole, however being a track vehicle and using ample ample copper grease, I was content to reuse the boot as is.

Unusually, curisosity on my part normally kills the cat, but in this case it may have been well advised. Still, it may leak now, but fingers crossed and I'm sure I'll be able to sorce some form of seal.
Present:
* '76 Alfetta GTAm 2.0 (project)
* '03 147 2.0 TS
*'12 159 Ti 1750 TBi
===================
Past:
* '10 159 2.2 JTS
* '89 164 3.0
* '98 Spider 2.0 TS