Hello everyone
I'm a first time Alfa owner who fell in love with Giulietta. I bought a new white QV a month ago with the leather/sunroof pack, my first new car ever (at 45!).
I was hoping my first post would be about how much in love I was...
However, last week after I caught Giulietta smoking - I found out that there was a hairline fracture in the head/cam carrier and it was leaking oil. Apparently this is a fault that Alfa hasn't experienced before.
Their proposed solution is to repair the part (aluminium weld) rather than replace it. Although I know very little about the mechanics, I am challenging this decision, even though the repair is in process.
So, three things:
Any thoughts on what I should do?
Has anyone heard of this fault before?
It may be worth keeping an eye on this if you have one.
Regards to all - hoping to wax lyrical about Giulietta soon....
(Apologies if this is in the wrong forum)
Broch
Sounds weird that it is a problem alfa has not picked up before!
Parts such as this are all tested vigorously so it is strange. I believe that your cylinder head is the small percentage that falls into the manufacturing fault bracket. If it were my car i would be pushing for a brand new part not a welded repair mainly for the reasons below;
1) quality of weld depends on skill of welder.
2) slag holes may become present which can expand when hot and causes the oil to sweat through.
3) Is the material full aluminium or a combination of minerals mixed which can often influence the ability of the head to be welded.
Its never great welding aluminium as many on this forum may have experiece doing so with the alfa 156. If you do get it welded make sure they test it for leaks before putting it back in. It will save you a lot in returning to the dealer if its proven successful before reinstallation. I remember putting a fine oil in my 156 sump the heating the exterior surface with the oxy to see if the slag holes expanded and sure enough it did.
Push for the brand new part mate.
i assume you mean cam cover, and not the actual head...
you are within your rights to ask for a new replacement, but down time could be a factor.... i wouldn't hesitate to weld the cover - that's all it does...
head... No Way, José!
Go for a brand new part, not a botched up alloy welded one, you weld things that cannot be replaced, such as vintage parts that are no longer available, its a new car, so you want new parts, if it was a second hand and 10 years old maybe, when you weld it, it will distort and go soft around the weld, i had a cylinder head on my old Volksy, that had a crack in it, and i was advised not to fix it, but get a good second hand one, so maybe if they won't replace it with a new one, get them to get a good second hand one from a wrecker, if it was me i would talk to consumer affairs and find out you rights and get a hire car off them while they are deciding what to do, Colin.
Quote from: wankski on November 21, 2011, 09:39:00 PM
i assume you mean cam cover, and not the actual head...
you are within your rights to ask for a new replacement, but down time could be a factor.... i wouldn't hesitate to weld the cover - that's all it does...
head... No Way, José!
Not sure, but I think it is the "head" - that's what the mechanic keeps calling it. It leaks oil... Does a "cover" do that? He's made a video that he has shown me of the oil leaking out of the engine once it hits 2000 revs - he says he made it on the request of Alfa. Apparently the head on the Giulietta carries the cam?? Sorry - out of my depth!
Thanks for your reply, wankski
Thanks Colcol and ANG156 - fuel to my fire.
I've been a bit of a wimp with Alfa about insisting on a replacement part - but wimp no longer!
These things happen from time to time with all cars, Mercs, Beemers, Toyota's, the newer Alfa's are very reliable now, they have all Bosch electrics, don't let this hiccup put you off, look after your car and it wiil pay you back in spades, Colin.
Thanks Colin - I won't be put off...
...but I haven't had a chance to look after my car - it broke after doing 2010 km. And it's a newer Alfa. Hiccup?
Seriously, I won't be put off - but I want my new Giulietta back, like new, as new.
Broch
(Though I don't know much about cars, I'm not sure that the electrics (Bosch or otherwise) have much to do with a cracked head.)
Quote from: ANG156 on November 21, 2011, 08:53:08 PM
Sounds weird that it is a problem alfa has not picked up before!
I'm intrigued by this comment - anything I should know?
i would clarify this with your mechanic.... if it is the cylinder head and not the cam cover that sits on top it it... Take it back and get a new head...
IF THE HEAD - it sounds like to me they are attempting to seal it from outside b/c swapping heads is a big deal - basically a brand new half engine and a lot of labour...
but it is your right... they must rectify under the consumer law.
it must be the head, as swapping covers can be done in 30min... i'm sure they can get a new one... but yeah... head... it's a big deal.
i wouldn't accept it. no way.
Thanks wankski - It's definitely the head. They're saying it needs to be pressure tested after the aluminium weld, and will take half a day to fit back. Also they need to replace gaskets, etc.
Maybe I should be demanding a new car, not just a new part!
Hey Broch,
worrying and very sad indeed!!
I hope the whole thing is resolved to your satisfaction. I echo other comments in that you are within your rights to demand a replacement and not a repair.
Keep us posted mate and all the very best. I want to hear you waxing lyrical soon!!
cheers
chris
Agree with the others, insist on a replacement part, FFS the car is 1 month old!! - otherwise name and shame the dealer.
Here is my free advice and it is worth all the money you pay for it.
This is not very good publicity for Alfa or Ateco.
I am not convinced that you have a right to choose replacement over repair. I believe that choice is with the vendor/manufacturer. They have to "make good".
Having said that you definitely should not give up on asking for replacement instead of repair. You may want to question long term viability of the repair and perceived reduction of resale value of the car with a "welded head".
Talking about publicity, it is not about "if this happens to all brands", it is about what they do to keep a happy customer when it happens.
In my view, this is the test of their commitment to selling Alfa as a premium brand.
BTW, who is the dealer and how do you find them in all this?
yes, that is true Branco, but it could easily be argued a patch on a new car is not 'made good' - esp as to warranty concerns if the same happens outside of the warranty period...
also there are the implied warranties for new sales provisions newly incorporated into the new ACL (Vic).
yes, they are entitled to 'repair' but that could be argued that esp for a new car - the meaning of warranty repair is replacing defective parts with a new oem part to restore the car to its original condition.
If i were taking the case, i would call the weld on the head a patch, not a repair. Much like a new tire blowout due to manufacturing defect, a patch would not be suitable to restore the consumer to their original position AS WARRANTED.
having had a quick scan through QLD,NSW and VIC fair trade legislation they all appear to be reasonably vague on the subject of new cars other than statutory warranty.
The head or even cover are not proscribed as exempt items from the warranty provisions (there is a list of these such as tyres, hoses and batteries).
Reading the warranty fine print is the key, however the attached document would seem to suggest that the consumer has the right to ask for either a repair or replacement. The dealership are after all acting as a retailer so IMHO would be covered by this charter
I am no lawyer and this is the result after only about 30 minutes of googling. I have to say I would be far from happy that a brand new car had to have such an integral part of the vehicle "patched". To my mind it forms a basic structural defect which I as the driver have no confidence would not go again at some point in the future.
well my tuppence worth...
cheers
chris
you're out of date... the Fair Trading Act is dead except to investigative provisions and specific state rententions..
the consumer act is now uniform, under the ACL - Australian Consumer Legislation.
vol 3 of the Aus Competition and Consumer Act 2010 contains the provisions...
you are able to factor the cost of the good in making out your argument wrt implied warranties, repair/replacement etc
I would be looking at section 54 (acceptable quality), 102 (warranties against defects)
specifically in vic - the motor car traders act brings up that section u refer to 'excluded defects' - but these sections relate to USED cars.... eg. section 54 - obligations - repairs under warranty to make good given age of car...
for a new car you would rely on the contract (hopefully its the standard form contract) together w/ the ACL.... motor car traders acts are mainly set up to protect consumers from 2nd hand car dealers for obvious reasons.... ::)
the ACL is relevant in this matter as no consumer contract can abrogate from its protections and guarantees.
Thank-you everyone for your input. Apparently my first step is to formally lodge a "letter of dispute" with Alfa Australia (ATECO) which I have now done - your comments have been invaluable, both in terms of presenting my case, and in fueling my fire. It's a wonderful welcome to the Alfa owners community, albeit through unfortunate (to put it mildly) circumstances.
I will keep you posted.
Meanwhile I'm chuffing around in a courtesy Peugeot 308 HDi - not quite the same!
nice one, cheers wankski
best of luck Broch..and welcome :)
Firstly, I'm not claiming any specific expertise in this area but...
Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the repair, I would personally have some concerns with repairing any complex part that has a manufacturing defect induced failure, not because of the quality of the repair, but because of the questionable quality of the part being repaired. Particularly if the part can't practically be thoroughly tested/inspected for any other hidden defects.
It *could* just be a localised problem (where the crack/leak is) or it could be a pervasive problem in the casting. Obviously if the problem were bad enough it would fail pressure testing, and maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I'd at least be keen to reduce the risk, however small, that there are other problems with the head, by getting a new one.
Good luck Broch with the repair/replacement. I'm very interested to here the result as I have a Giulietta QV myself.
Sorry to hear of the bad experience - must be disappointing and frustrating in equal measures.
We've just bought a Giulietta as well so will be watching/checking things carefully...
I shan't add to the many worthwhile comments the fellow Alfisti mention on here other than to say that you should check out the Alfa Owners forum in the UK. With many thousands more members than we could ever hope to muster and a longer experience with the Giulietta, if there are any significant 'patterns' of problems on any Alfa then I can guarantee they'd have been discovered/remedied before by those guys and girls over there. If there is a pattern of failure then it could arguably aid your own argument over here....
Having said that, having been on the receiving end of some truly appalling treatment by ATECO (and that differs wildly from UK experiences with Alfa Romeo Europe directly) I wish you luck in your endeavours and hope you get the result you are after...
Cheers
Gary