Hi All,
Thought l would start this off with my experience with my 75ts at Winton.
My 75 is standard apart from Koni Yellows, and slightly more open exhaust by removing the back muffler and adding a hot dog. It,s quiet at 110ks on the Hwy, but has a nice note when driven on the track.
The first time l took the 75 to Winton was also my first time on a track. As far as preparation went all l did was the BASIC STUFF, New Oil and filter, Air filter, bleed out all the old brake fluid so it had all new fluid though the system. l had just done the front brakes up, so l new all was good there, but l did re check wheel bearings. l used new Lucas brake pads front and back and had no problem at all with the brakes.
Even in it's standard form it was exceptionally good to drive, fast and lots of fun. The only thing l have changed since is front brake pads, l went to a full track day brake pad from "QFM" recommend to me by Bruno at Maranello Motors. l should do the same with the rears but haven't yet, still running the Lucas in the rears.
Hope that is helpful to anyone looking to take a 75 to a club sprint. l highly recommend taking your car to Winton even in relative standard trim you will learn a lot. The 75ts is a particularly good performer on the track. The Alfa club sprint days are very well run, friendly and always have plenty of help and advice on hand if you need it.
Cheers Paul
A few pis from Winton.
Interesting you raise this Paul, talking to Neil Choi the other day he said there were a lot of owners on the edge of putting their toe in the water with their first sprint.
I found this article produced by forum oracle Evan Bottcher buried in the club archives. Maybe a good time to pull it out and re read.
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/component/option,com_remository/Itemid,40/func,startdown/id,91/ ( hit the download link)
For any members that have possibly just put an old alfa onto club plates or owners that have just wondered what Sandown racetrack looks like from the other side remember the Sandown meeting on 12/06/2011 is re introducing parade laps during the lunch time break.
PARADE LAPS
The parade laps will hopefully be scheduled at lunchtime (somewhere between 12pm-1:30pm) for 20 minutes lead by the Presidential and Safety Alfa.
The conditions for parade laps are:
- limited numbers so you should get in touch with me to book a place
- no excessive speed
- no lagging behind, a maximum of 5 car lengths behind leading car
- passengers allowed, no helmet required but seat belts fastened
- SAFETY being priority
Regards
Neil
0433 11 66 47
neil_choi@optusnet.com.au
Great opportunity to have a look or "put a toe in the water" for something that deep down every red blooded Alfa owner would love to do.
Come out and have a look stay an hour or stay the whole day . Free admission . Enter of Dandenong Road.
See you all at Sandown.
Gully
Bump,
Here's some vision of club member Steve Aarons having a lot of fun in his road going Alfa 75 at Sandown May last year.
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=4891.0
Great stuff Paul, if I recall correctly you were quite quick at Winton too!
The only thing I'd add is for prospective sprinters is to familiarise yourself with the supplementary regs and have the correct helmet, along with getting a fire extinguisher installed.
Neil and the other volunteers always run a great day and for that AROCA should be proud as their reputation is glowing throughout the club communities.
Hi Paul
It was great to have a chat with you at Winton about your car and Sprint experiences.
You have indeed inspired me, having thought about it for years I think I am ready to have a go.
Just need the right car now, most likely its going to have the numbers '75' on the boot lid!
Cheers
Alan
paul there is a funday at winton on the 8th july and a sprint on the 9th you should come over and have a play, there are a few alfas that get there for these days now.
Thanks Paul,
Now I'm quite inspired to get my newly aquired 75 to the track. All i really need to do is get some tyres, the rear brakes sorted, (perhaps a new set of EBC Greenstuff pads too) and if possible find a fix to get the tacho working properly, it reads way to low.
That way i'll get a good baseline on the stock car an have a lot of fun too. I've only been to winton a couple of times before, and that was years ago.
Cheers
Darren
sorry got the dates wrong its sat 9th sun 10th, as per usual this will conflict with a alfa sprint day but if ur not going its good for a bit of light fun
Hi all,
I was having a good look under the 75 TS on the W/E and noticed that the rear sway bar bushes were chewed out, bits of rubber hanging out etc. none of the other bushes on the car seemed that bad, but nothing looked new either... so i'm after a bit more advice; what bushes to use. Also, which ones on the car are most likely to need replacing, or do i bite the bullet & get the lot done?
The other big question at the moment is tyres. I run 17's on the road with Kumho tyres (over diameter by quite a bit) and i'd rather not scrub them out on the track.
i am looking to get some rubber for trackdays and have two sets of rims i could choose from; original 14 x 6.5's or 15 x 6's off a 90. not looking to spend a fortune and after some thoughts as to brand, size, availabilty etc. i would be putting them on just for the event and the trip there and back (which is a couple of hours in my case.)
thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Darren
I too have been thinking about having a "go" in my TS 156.
redsky, I bought a second set of rims and purchased some second hand Potenza's (Roadworthy) from a local tyre shop for just over $100.00 which might be worth investigating at a store near you.
hi darren
where abouts are you located, i run 16's on my 90 but i have a few stock 90 rims avail if you need some, i have a set there with very used semi slicks may be a bit of fun still there, in the 75 i would travel over on ur normal rims and then just change them when you get there (thats if ur driving it there) you can get federals semi slick 15's about 170 each but look on ebay there is always second hand rubber for both sizes.
bix there are a few 156 running around so my advice is just have a crack
If you just want to dip the toe in being on the track with your 75, Pauls' outline is great. Keeps the car street usable and you get a chance to sniff the atmosphere. Adding appropriate track tyres, brake pads and fresh brake fluid still keeps costs down and will enhance your experience.
As things evolve however, you will find the 75 has too much performance robbing weight around the place and once you start the downhill run of weight reduction, it's only a matter of time before it becomes a dedicated race car needing a trailer and its own budget.
So keep it real and be under no illusions. Make a clear choice for yourself and stick to it. You will have unexpected expenses in whatever stage you want to use the car in and in any case, you need to be ready for that. There is nothing more frustrating than to have a tow truck take your daily driver home because you have broken couplings, CV's, fried the clutch, blown a brake hose,radiator hose or some other hoodoo nuisance all of which you need to understand could happen (and does).
Hey Darren,
My 2 cents worth now: I started sprinting in a bog standard 75 twinnie and had a ball. if you are going to invest in a set of semi slicks for the track, buy a set of 185/60/14s and put them on your original 14 x 6.5s. The offset of those original 14s is factory perfect, looks hot and will be a great fit for the 185/60s. Also the rolling diameter of the 185/60 is 577.6, which is nice and small, keeping the gearing as low as possible for the twinnie's 4.1 final drive. The team at Stuckey's will fix you up with a set of Dunlop DZ03Gs, which are a very nice tyre. Go for the hard compound to begin with, as they will last longest and with stock suspension you won't make the most of a soft tyre anyway.
Having the donuts checked is very good advice.
While the other bushes won't make or break your sprint day, they'll sure help firm things up and make the 75 feel better.
Have a blast. After a few meetings you'll be cursing how softly sprung the old girl is, but you can drive them to the limit and they're extremely forgiving. Damn I want another 75, but I'm completely out of garage space, yard space and street parking.
Cheers, Brent
Hey Paul,
That was indeed awesome fun. ;D ;D I think we had at least 8 75's running that day. I'm aiming to be there for the August meet, so let's do it all again. Winton is a great track for new people to have a try on. In a standard 75 the fastest you'll go is about 140kmh briefly, which is not too scary and because the run groups are arranged so that you are with cars doing roughly similar lap times, you get a lot of open track to enjoy.
My 75 TS is currenly sitting in Shepparton at the local suspension place while they search (apparently unsuccessfully) for rear swaybar bushes. Can someone point me in the direction of someone who may have them in stock?
Thanks,
Darren.
There are local suppliers listed on the front page of the website (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/). Try Maranello Pur Sang, Mauceri, Monza Repairs, and the Spare Place. Click through to their contact details.
If unavailable locally, try EB Spares in the UK: http://www.ebspares.co.uk/alfa75/suspension.cfm
Darren,
If you are not successful in obtaing original spares. You may care to try this crowd who should be able to assist you. They are in most states:
Fulcrum Suspensions Pty Ltd
20 Swanston St
PrestonVIC3072
Tel: 9480 0338
Hi all,
I'm taking the 75 to Winton on Saturday, but i'm scratching my head as to the second bonnet fastening method, any suggestions welcome.
thanks
Darren
an old seat-belt strap threaded into the bonnet pressing and tied to something fixed and handy should get you past scrutineering...
Our Chief Scrutineer (Bruno)tells me that if your car has a working remote release, that qualifies as one of the fastening methods and then the catch that you pull to physically lift the bonnet qualifies as the other, I.E. if your car is stanard and unmodified, it already has two fastening methods, no belt required. I did two sprints last year like this and wasn't pulled up on it by the scrutineers
For the sake of $3 tie down strap from Bunnings, I would use one. In fact I have always carried a spare one which I loaned to somone at the track and never got it back.
If you have ever seen a bonnet fly up from being uncatched, hitting your windscreen and your roof, the amount of damage is enough to write off your pristine Alfa.
The chances of it happening is low but..............
You can say the same thing for other requirements.
My two 2cents
Neil
And that's just the damage from the bonnet flying up - damage from lack of vision can be damned ugly.
Cheers,
Brent
Thanks guys for the responses, i'm sure i've got a strap somewhere that will do the job.
Cheers,
Darren.
Well, things didn't quite go to plan & i never made it to Winton last weekend. I'll have to put it down to a learning experience, i had thought starting 6 weeks out would have given me enough time but there were a few variables i hadn't accounted for. Most importantly though, i need to mention that the support and advice from forum and club members has been teriffic, and enabled me to succesfully do quite a lot of the preparation myself. It was only the bits i outsourced that i had problems with - brakes and suspension.
In summary:
Bad -
- Well known brakes place (with 3 initials) who decided that having replaced my master cylinder that the brakes were 'fixed', despite the car having a softer pedal that when it went in and refusing to flush new fluid though the system because it (quote)"can cause problems and make the brakes worse"
- Overseas (US) parts supplier who neglected to tell me that he hadn't actually processed or sent the order for the swaybar bushes......at all
- Price i had to pay locally for the above bushes, between 4 to 5 times what you'd expect for a similar car, or than the OS price.
Good -
- UK parts supplier for the powerflex watts linkage bushes.
- local 'no bull' suspension people who managed to source, replace rebuild & fit as neccessary the remaining bushes, brake hoses, proportioning valves etc. in a very small window of time.
Unfortunately the last of the brake parts didn't arrive till the day before Winton & once every thing was back together it was found that i still have a soft pedal that goes within an inch of the floor on any decent stop.
So not the start to motor sport with the 75TS i was looking for, but hopefully i'll see you all at an event soon. i'll probably know a bit more about brakes by then too...
Cheers
Darren
G'day Paul,
Hope you had fun doing the recce for September, i was doing the Melbourne traffic thing...
The Federal semi slicks were like some of the other parts, after a month on order they still couldn't give me a delivery date better than 'a few more weeks' so i found a set of Falken RT 615's at Tempe Tyres in Sydney & they arrived in 3 days. They aren't R spec, but should be fine for what i'm after.
I might have to take you up on the offer of bleeding the brakes, as that's what the problem feels like. The brake light on the console does flash a couple of times after a firm application. All a bit odd really.
And yes Mel and I (& Patrick, as his sitters are overseas) are looking forward to Le tour de north east.
Cheers
Darren
Just to dovetail into Pauls' advice, I suggest having a read of these two simple articles about brake fluids and flushing techniques.
Fluids
http://soarer.ace.net.au/brake_fluid.html (http://soarer.ace.net.au/brake_fluid.html)
Flushing
http://soarer.ace.net.au/bleeding_flushing.html (http://soarer.ace.net.au/bleeding_flushing.html)
With regard to using higher end fluids like Lucas Grand Prix 600, keep in mind that the existing system must be flushed with the same fluid first otherwise the performance of your new fluid will be downgraded to the performance of the fluid that is in the system. Hardly what you want.
Quote from Lucas label:
"For best results bleed the system with fresh fluid before each race, especially if the brakes are excessively hot and/or the conditions are humid".
Now if you are going to follow that advice, be sure there are plenty of moths in the wallet.
If you intend to flush the system before each race then you should install the highest DRY boiling point you can afford. If on the other hand you want to change the fluid 3-4 times year, you should install the highest WET boiling point fluid.
Here's the specs on the Motul RBF 600 for interest sake as a non silicon based compromise.
http://www.motul-oil.co.uk/pdfs/brake-fluid/RBF_600_TDS_%28GB%29.pdf (http://www.motul-oil.co.uk/pdfs/brake-fluid/RBF_600_TDS_%28GB%29.pdf)
(No disrespect intended Paul).
Hi Bird Brains. ;D
The only way you know which way is up after sniffing all that oxygenated Alpine air is with the help of your good Alfa mates down there. Geez they are good to you.
Anyway fella, when you go to brake school, pay attention will ya? I have already posted the tool kit ages ago. Here's the link:http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=5929.0 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=5929.0)
Any more foul ups from you and you will need to spend an hour at St Kilda beach with your pants on back-to-front. (with apologies to the good people of St Kilda for having to put up with ya) :) :)
Well i got the 75 back from the workshop today, The clutch had developed a problem, pedal was sticking half way down & pick up point was near the floor. that's all sorted now.
The Brakes are better too, it pulls up straight repeatedly on a firm stop around town. Still a longish soft pedal compared to what i'm used to in other cars, not sure if this is an Alfa trait or just my car.
The tour de north east will be a good run for me to get used to the 75 on real roads. i hope we get good weather, so far i've taken the car up Lake Mtn, over the black spur and Tawong gap and its been wet and foggy each time.
cheers Darren
A mate of mine got pinged for flex this year at Mt Tarrengower hillclimb in his Triumph. the fix for those is a brace from master cyl to strut tower, a bit harder to do in a 75 though...
i'll have a look and see if i can measure the deviation, but before that i think those rears need bleeding again.
I'm still getting used to the car, particuarlly the pedal placement & changing back into second, but overalll the car felt well balanced and was great fun to drive quickly.
That volvo conversion sounds tempting for some time in the future....
Just personally, I think the firewall flex is overstated. It's definitely there, but you need to be pushing pretty hard to get the flex, basically an emergency stop.
Far more important is to make sure all your calipers are working well, and that all your hoses are in good condition. It's a PITA to get the rear calipers off, but worth it in the long run to get them off and rebuilt. Rebuild kits cost very little, and brakes are very important.
I fitted the Volvo calipers (rebuilt), rebuilt my rear calipers, and fitted braided hoses all round, and have a very solid pedal at all times. I've done 70 minutes non-stop at Winton and not lost the pedal at all. I think good condition standard calipers and new hoses would be more than sufficient for a road/occasional track car.
somewhere in here there is a page about the firewall flex and a pic of the rod used to cure it, ill try and find it and post a link
A belated update, found a decent place who know how to bleed brakes properly (thanks Wangaratta brake & clutch). Makes a big difference.
Off to Winton on Saturday in another attempt to learn how to drive quicker than my grandma.... At least It should be drier than last time.
The real question is re a suspension upgrade, the 75 sure does have a bit of body roll. I was thinking of keeping standard ride height & torsion set up in the front to cope with our bumpy country rds and just upgrading the rear springs a little and going Koni yellows all round. Am I on the right track (no pun intended) for an occasional track use car?
Cheers Darren
If your going to Winton and are around for the Sunday sessions make sure you have a word with Joe Falcone, Claude Botti & Justin Jacobs to name a few . They all have 75 TS's that seem to go around cormers OK.
My Stock 75TS with unknown Pad & stock discs & fluid cried enough! half way through the Winton Sprints this month.
I got the Alfa back today. it looks like it was just a pure over heating issue & ultimately boiled the fluid, cooked the pads etc.
So now it has slotted & dimpled RDA front discs, high temp TRW Grand Prix 600 fluid and EBC Red Stuff front pads. Haven't touched the rears yet, & ended up going with EBC only because that was what the local store stocks. they don't deal in the QFM that was recommended to me.
Sure was extra bitey coming over the Warby ranges on the way home, much better feel than before. Most importantly it should now handle the repeated braking i'll give it in February.
Cheers
Darren
One lesson I learnt from hard experience, and from Joe Beninca via Alan Goodall a number of years ago was to thoroughly bleed brakes before each event. Doing that meant even standard brakes lasted amazingly well.
I did Winton in my standard 90, so it was interesting to get reacquainted with stock Alfa brakes. I have two year old slotted and cross-drilled discs all-round, braided lines, and put in some QFM track-day pads. I didn't do a complete flush of the fluid (lazy), but did a thorough bleed.
With two drivers the car did around 10 sessions, and the brakes were definitely starting to feel a little tired in the last session. I was pleasantly surprised by how well they stood up to the punishment though, and I think I'm fairly brutal on brakes; they definitely would have been okay throughout the day with only one driver.
I'm not surprised that you had issues with unknown pads and fluid. The stock set-up seems to be fairly good, but not that good!! You're on the right track though; get good rotors, pads and fluid, do a flush and bleed a few days before, and the brakes will be fine for a track-day.
Don't neglect the rear brakes either, they do more work on these cars than a lot of other cars, due to the weight of the transaxle, and they also get pretty hot sitting right next to the exhaust and gearbox. If you can, try and rig-up some kind of ducting to both front and rear brakes. Probably does bugger all, but can't hurt.
Hi all,
Just discovered this thread (clearly I am a bit slow on the uptake).
Paul, my apologies for not responding to your words of encouragement about having a go at sprinting.
Darren, great to hear that you resolved your braking issue. I came away with an issue as well, not evident while I was at Winton. Mine involved the master cylinder seals. I am very happy with the brakes now, they are 30% better now than when I bought the car. I have Ferodo Race 2500 pads and high temperature brake fluid, the pedal feel is excellent. I look forward to some further testing...
Re. the suspension, I am tempted to explore the Handling Kits offered by Alfaholics and EB Spares for the 75. Essentially thicker sway bar, and stiffer rear springs and Koni yellow dampers. From memory the EB Harvey Bailey springs lower the rear a little. I always think that the 75 sits too high at the rear. Doesn't seem to slow Joe Falcone down though!!
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: alanm on December 20, 2012, 01:34:56 PM
Re. the suspension, I am tempted to explore the Handling Kits offered by Alfaholics and EB Spares for the 75. Essentially thicker sway bar, and stiffer rear springs and Koni yellow dampers. From memory the EB Harvey Bailey springs lower the rear a little. I always think that the 75 sits too high at the rear. Doesn't seem to slow Joe Falcone down though!!
Only my opinion of course, but I really don't think that is the way to go, in fact I'm very surprised that such a well-known outfit would recommend that as a first-stage upgrade. If you want to do one thing to make your transaxle handle better at the track (and it will be far nicer on the road too), install bigger torsion bars, as well as Konis. 27 or 28mm will be more than adequate, and after that you can fine-tune things with rear springs and front and rear sway-bars. The rear-end of a transaxle Alfa is the best thing about the car, it's the front that needs sorting out. Concentrate on that area first.
Like I say, only my opinion, but also based on a few years of experience.
Thanks for you input guys,
Okay, so I know where to get Koni yellows (though reds on the car may not be on their firmest setting ::))
Where do you get torsion bars though??
Was interested in all of the comments a picture of Joe's car attracted after Sandown sprint showing compression of the suspension at the front of the car.
People always seem to say things like... oh, a mate offered me a set, or, I found them in the back of so and so's garage.
I have never seen them offered for sale new by a parts supplier.
Cheers,
Alan
Has anyone come up with a reliable method of reducing the uptake in the 'slack' in the brake pedal before the brakes begin to be applied? Most of the recommended mods are to give you less pedal travel between initial and maximum brake pressure (firewall flex, braided hoses, different fluid) but I'm yet to hear ideas on getting the functional portion of brake pedal travel further toward the top of the stroke.
All my transaxle Alfas have suffered the same fault to varying degrees.
This fixes it.
That's not fixing it, that's replacing it ::) Great idea but wouldn't that render it non-registerable (without a booster?).
So you are saying all the slack is in the cross tube? Therefore a LHD car wouldn't suffer the same problem? Or is it also down to the m/c design?
Paul,
All the extra "movement" is a cummulative thing which includes the booster. If you remove all the RHD brake conversion parts, it reduces the weight of the car by around 14.5kg as well.
What you lose in the pedal pressure assistance from the booster, you need to make up with an improved pedal leverage ratio to make the pressure acceptable. You also need to replace the pedal lever arm with one that's at least 8mm thick (or more) as the arm itself flexes. Bracing the pedal box also braces the firewall.
The remote reservoirs are not a requirement, they are installed here for other reasons not related to this issue.
The fact is, a careful choice of street pads (ones that work best on cold brakes) will have the factory components working adequately for the job. However if one expects these same brakes to do the job on the track, well, they haven't experienced seriuously good brakes.
The question regarding the legal compliance is simply answered by a Blue Plate certification from a qualified mechanical engineer that the system is up to the job. (Goes for any modification within reason actually.)