Like the saying goes..oils aint oils..
What specific brand and type of oil are you guys using for the likes of the twin spark transaxle in either street or racing applications?
Thanks.
We use Castrol Multitrax in our open diffed 116 boxes. I have it from a reliable source that it is the best thing (or equal to) that you can put in them. At about $60 for 4 litres it's not the cheapest, but i'm pretty confident it helps a lot.
Would it be any different for the TS box? i plan on changing the oil in mine soon too.
Yeah Mat, thanks for your reply.
The Twin Spark box has a clutch type limited slip differential. In the Castrol Lube Guide on their website, they say Multitrax is suitable for this transaxle. They also say that CASTROL SYNTRAX 75W/90 is a suitable alternative for the same application. That is until you read the Syntrax specific product guide which says is it not recommended for LSDs . So what are you going to believe? See my point?
See (1) http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/CastrolTradeAus/default.asp (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/CastrolTradeAus/default.asp)
See:(2) http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/s/Syntrax75W_90_B1278983.pdf (http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/s/Syntrax75W_90_B1278983.pdf)
Basically I am trying to track down a good fluid for racing applications for a clutch type LSD living in a transaxle. It seems easy to find a lube for one or the other but so far not for both. I am waiting for a response from Alfa themselves (wish me luck).
QuoteIt seems easy to find a lube for one or the other but so far not for both
-Brew up a 50/50 mix and hope for the best? ;D
I see your point indeed. would love to know the outcome of this, as there is a good chance i'll be following any advice you pass on as a result here
I was using Valvoline Duragear 75-W90 semi synthetic API GL5 in the Guilietta racecar. Oil often was running at 150 degrees C with out a problem. I am sure that Syntrax & Multitrax are great, but for a racecar gearbox, where you are pulling it apart a lot - and losing the oil in the process - the Valvoline product at about $30.00 for four liters works well.
jimn~
Hi Mikey,
I am now running Redline Shockproof Light as is at least one other member who put me onto it.It makes shifting really good and the Diff is working well.You can look it up at WWW.redlineoil.com
Cheers
Andrew
Good to see you chime in Jim & Andrew. Maybe it is just me (no, I'll be honest, it is me) I am getting tired of quasy techno speak. You know the type of thing where certain words or phrases are dropped in the hope that when you mentally fill in the blanks you will get the picture that YOU had in mind but never seeing the full and complete facts?
I had a CLASSIC example today. Got a response to this tranny fluid question from nothing less than the Castrol Technical Department to tell me they recommend Castrol Syntrax 75W/90. You would think that's the end of the matter. No it isn't.
Checking their own technical data sheets for this product on the Australian Castrol website states very clearly that it is NOT recommeded for limited slip differentials (never mind what sort of differentials to start with) !!!
Oh, but wait there's more..
A check of the Castrol site in the UK, they leave off the recommendation out altogether !
So a simple analogy from Castrol so far is:-
1 Use it
2 Don't use it
3 We haven't got a f**ken clue.
...to be continued. I think I need a FOUREX :)
BTW Here the TDS reference for the Redline stuff if you want to read it :
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/11.pdf (http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/11.pdf)
I have also used redline lightweight shockproof as well with good results, however, I found that on a gearbox that is apart a lot the Valvoline stuff works well, is inexpensive and is available in many locations.
I also use the redline lightweight shockproof, having started off on the heavyweight stuff first. I think the shift is quicker using the light stuff.
No complaints from me, though it is expensive.
I noted that at Bathurst a few of the Alfettas were losing gearbox oil once they reached the top of the mountain. These cars didn't have a gearbox oil breather set up (neither does mine) and were spraying oil onto the left brake caliper. The smoke haze was noticeable on the Alfetta I was following.
Not sure whether my Alfetta was emitting an oil haze. Will have to check...
Having just put the transaxle back in my car over the weekend, I discovered that the oil has been leaking all over the left hand side of my car too. Time to put in one of those there breather thingys Paul mentioned.
As for the oil, dunno.....whatever was in the 20L container Hugh had the hand pump in!
I had that problem with throwing oil out of the breather until I found a hose that had a short section about 25mm in diameter and a long tube running off it.I stuck the lrage section over the breather and ran the tube up to the floor of the car through the rear transaxle mount hole and then back down to just below the dedion frame.No oil comes out now!.
Cheers
Andrew
I contacted Penrite directly, as I've used their engine oils in a few cars of mine that have seen some heavy duty, with never an issue. They gave me a direct recommendation for a gearbox oil that is perfectly suited to the transaxle/LSD setup. My GTV has a TS/LSD transaxle. I found them prompt and really helpful!
Firstly
LSD & non LSD diffs require different oil additives - The oil is labelled GL-5 has sulphur based additives that corrode some of the clutch pack components of LSD'd. LSD's require GL-4.
Alfa specify (from memory) 75W-90, which is the SAE grade (like 20W50 engine oil). There is some wriggle room on grade. Its critical that you get the LSD / non LSD part right.
My logic says that Alfa transaxles run hot (especially due to tranmitted heat fom the brake discs in competition) and synthetic oil is more temperature stable, therefore synthetic is the thing to use. Because they do not start as thick as mineral oils, the gearshift quality is improved when the gearbox is cold. I have had oil techicians explain things about molecule chains being longer in synthetic oil and not breaking down with use, but I forget.
Semi-synthetic oils basically use a synthetic component as a viscosity enhancing additive. My personal view is that they are neither fish nor foul so I use either good mineral oil or full synthetic.
Redline has a good reputation, but I have found it impossible to buy anywhere near Berwick. There is an Amsoil distributor in Dandenong (Amsoil are a redline competitor in the US). Before the Mallala 6-hour I changed the transaxle oil and used Mobil 1 SHC 75W90 gear oil. It seemed to work very well and the gear shift quality did not deteriorate during the race. Its reasonably readily available and I think cheaper than Redline or Amsoil.
Doug
That's an interesting point you make Doug regarding GL-4 vs GL-5 oils. So if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting using a GL-4 oil for LSD's at least to minimise sulphur corrosion to clutch packs.
Unfortunately so far all the oils suggested are rated GL-5 and they are :-
Castrol Syntrax 75w90
Penrite Transaxle 75 or 80
Redline Light and/or Superlight
Valvoline Duragear 75w/90
Mobil 1 SHC 75W/90*
* now superceded by Mobil Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-90 and 80W-140.
The TDS says this oil is not recommended for applications requiring API GL-4 level performance
See : http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/APXXENCVLMOMobilube_SHC_75W-90_80W-140.asp (http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/APXXENCVLMOMobilube_SHC_75W-90_80W-140.asp)
Doug, can you recollect if the Alfa recommendation is/was a GL-4 or 5 oil ? Also apologies for not knowing this but the car you used at Mallala, is it a 116 and is it fitted with and LSD ?
(penalty for being a newbie on this site)
Cheers, Mike
My 1985 116 GTV has a 75 LSD transaxle fitted with the closer ratio gears. The mobil that I used is GL4. I think that the Mobil1 gearbox oil lives on in the racing range, but I'm not really sure. I was given the Mobil oil by the guy in the factory next door who builds race engines. He had it left over from something.
Its been a while, but I think you'll find that many of the oils you listed are available in GL4 & GL5. I've noticed that the GL bit is no longer very prominent of oil bottles, but you should pay attention to reference for LSD vs non LSD applications.
Well I guess I started this topic so I should make a contribution as well. I have been doing some homework talking to oil company tech departments and chemical engineers. The topic is certainly as complicated as you want to make it. However I have distilled my findings into this chart which may be helpful to anyone who need it.
Transmission Fluids for the Alfa 75 Twin Spark Transaxle
1. Australian Alfa Romeo Dealership recommendations.
(TBA if and when it arrives)**
2. The 75 owner's manual. SAE 75W-90 API GL-5
No distinction is made for an open or limited slip differential in the manual. Lubricants recommended :-
Agip Rotra SX SAE 75W-90 >now LSX 75W-90
Shell Spirax 80W-90HD > now Spirax A80W-90
IP Pontiax HDS 75W-90
3. Oil company recommendations
Penrite, Street- Transaxle 75W-90 GL-5 Semi synthetic
Racing- Sin Gear Oil 75W-90 GL-5/6 Full synthetic
Valvoline Street/Race Duragear 75W-90 GL-4 Semi synthetic
Shell Street Spirax A80W-90 GL-5 Mineral
Racing XGO 75W-90 GL4&5 Synthetic
Agip Street/race Rotra LSX 75W-90 GL4&5 Synthetic
MobilStreet/race Delvac synthetic gear oil 75W-90 Synthetic
Redline Street/race Light/ Superlight 75W90NS GL-5 Synthetic
Street Heavy Shockproof, Synthetic
Race Lightweight Shockproof, Synthetic
Race Superlight Shockproof. Synthetic
Please note that obviously this is not a complete list of lubricants that are available and undoutbtedly there are many more that I have not been made aware of but it should get you in the ballpark whether it is for street or the track.
Compiled by MD
05.June.2009
**
Don't hold your breath for this information. Five out of five Australian dealerships that I wrote to have failed to respond in any form whatsoever. With that level of brand committment and support, one could call that disapponing or a disgrace depending on your mood at the time.
Alfa Italy took 24 hours to make the referral.
Anybody used a Motul oil such as:-
Gear Competition 75W-140 or GEAR LS 75W-90 both synthetic in a transaxle with LSD ?
If so, what is your opinion of it?
Richard Anderson recommended Redline Lightweigh Shockproof (aka Smurfs Blood) to us when we built up two LSD transaxels for race/sprint.
No complaints, very good shifts, no synchro issues.
Have also used this GB oil in a 308 ferrari transaxel where it cured a cold slow 2nd synchro.
Have pulled apart GBes that have had this oil and it clings to the internals like sh1t to blanket.
Pretty expensive but can be reused and being a full synthetic will last well.
Quote from: brook308 on August 01, 2014, 07:07:43 PM
Richard Anderson recommended Redline Lightweight 75w90 NS to us when we built up two LSD transaxels for race/sprint.
No complaints, very good shifts, no synchro issues.
Have also used this GB oil in a 308 ferrari transaxel where it cured a cold slow 2nd synchro.
Have pulled apart GBes that have had this oil and it clings to the internals like sh1t to blanket.
Pretty expensive but can be reused and being a full synthetic will last well.
Apologies, the good stuff is Redline Lightweight Shockproof gear oil, also known as Smurfs Blood for its colour. Will ammend my previous post.