Been a bit of chat about the selespeed and it's various failings - thought I'd share my experiences and limited knowledge. Big disclaimer - this is mostly hearsay and information from forums so don't flame me for the inaccuracies.
Our selespeed has definitely let us down more times than I'd like *sigh*. It's a 2000 model. We've replaced the selespeed electric pump twice - this is a separate component from the actuator. It makes the whirring noise when you open the driver's door and provides hydraulic pressure for the actuator to change gears and operate the clutch etc. When it fails you no longer have pressure and you can't change gears - both times it happened when I wasn't driving, but I believe the gearbox failure red light flashes on the dash. No warning, first time it failed in stop-start traffic on the citylink which was not fun. I believe a genuine replacement is on the order of $1000 (can't remember if that's GST inc or not) for the part only. Both times I've had it replaced with a reconditioned pump - $500-600 including fitting. I think the dealers would tell us that they won't last very long - that might be true given we have replaced the pump twice in 50,000km.
The selespeed actuator is the part that's over $3000 to replace and is only available as a total replacement part including the accumulator. I don't know a lot about it's functions but sounds like it's a big box of solenoids and switches that controls the hydraulic pressure to run the clutch and gearshift. I have read on UK forums about folk over there who do recondition them, haven't followed that up yet as so far I haven't had a need (touch wood). Bit shaky on the memory here but I think some of the symptoms of actuator failure include bunny hopping and jumping out of gear - particularly when the car is hot. I'll put links to the UK forums at the end - lots to read about the actuator.
The accumulator is a component that stores hydraulic pressure produced by the pump. Alfa do not sell the accumulator as a separate component new - only as part of the $3000+ actuator replacement. I'm not sure of the exact symptoms when it wears out, but I imagine you would lack enough hydraulic pressure reserve to operate the system properly. The accumulator on our car is currently under suspicion - on the diagnosis machine it shows that the pump is cutting in on every gearchange, so the accumulator probably isn't holding enough reserve pressure. Going to try changing it after Easter for a good secondhand one and see if it improves the drive. I'm wondering if the pump running so regularly has caused premature pump failure also.
Interestingly you can't buy the accumulator separately from Alfa, but you CAN buy the identical part from Fiat(!). Isn't that the same company and even the same Australian distributor? I found out on one of the UK forums. There are none available in Australia but you can get them from Fiat parts dealers in the UK - about 50 pounds. That's a lot better than $3000+ if that's the component that has failed... I have the part number if anyone is interested.
Some links to selespeed info:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/
in particular the thread http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-and-gt/59454-selespeed-info.html (354 replies - bit of reading in there)
http://homepage.mac.com/paul_denyer/selespeed/
lots of technical and diagnosis information - can't help wondering if this is a copy of some official manual?
http://www.alfadiag.net/
this is a home-grown version of the official 'Examiner' software for diagnostics and running the selespeed calibration routines. I bought this a couple of years ago and the right kind of USB connector and it seems to work quite well - provides lots of interesting graphs and information from inside the ECU also.
Please remember that much of this is hearsay and most of the internet is bullsh*t - I disclaim myself of all and any damage you do to yourself or to your car by reading the forum posts or using Alfadiag. If any of the Alfa service managers are reading this I'll probably get sued, but these cars are now getting to the point (and price) where we need to be able to fix them ourselves.
I still quite like the system in concept and even the driving when it works properly. I wouldn't buy one again though nosirreeee!!! Ours isn't worth much cash any more and we don't depend on it as the 'main car' any more so I'm kinda enjoying trying to guess what's going to fail next and how much it's going to cost. If it was still worth $15k I'd be getting rid of it in a flash!
cheers,
Evan.
well, i can say u just saved me at least $3000 as i had the prob of not being able to change gears now i know is the pump and to any one who need the actuator i sourced some from the uk for $1900 new inc postage if ur interested the come with a complete instruction manual so you can put it in ur self (yea right only if ur an proper alfamech)
I *hope* it's the pump for you - don't sue me if it's something more dire :-)
Great work Evan, perhaps we should sticky this.
QuoteInterestingly you can't buy the accumulator separately from Alfa, but you CAN buy the identical part from Fiat(!). Isn't that the same company and even the same Australian distributor? I found out on one of the UK forums. There are none available in Australia but you can get them from Fiat parts dealers in the UK - about 50 pounds. That's a lot better than $3000+ if that's the component that has failed... I have the part number if anyone is interested
Hugh at Monza Motors/Alfpa Repairs can supply these locally if required...
at what price
Quote from: Evan Bottcher on April 06, 2009, 09:42:12 PM
Interestingly you can't buy the accumulator separately from Alfa, but you CAN buy the identical part from Fiat(!). Isn't that the same company and even the same Australian distributor? I found out on one of the UK forums. There are none available in Australia but you can get them from Fiat parts dealers in the UK - about 50 pounds. That's a lot better than $3000+ if that's the component that has failed... I have the part number if anyone is interested.
is it 100% identical? can you tell the part number please?
that brilliant, you may have saved me also
Hi Evan,
Is it possible to strip off all the selespeed stuff and turn it back to all manual? I realise a conventional clutch would need to be added.Perhaps a different G/Box housing also.
Has anyone done it? Seems to me, it may be a viable solution if there are no known major hurdles.
Cheers,
Andy
I would not waste my time, the cost to change it you could but a manual anyway,
I was just thinking it may offer the poor selespeed owners an alternative.
It seems to me there is a significant and demonstrable market reluctance/resistance to buy used selespeeds. Quite justifiably in my view.
I understand the system has it's devotees, but I'm NOT one of them, if it were a viable option to strip off the selespeed kit not only would that increase the sales potential of those wishing to divest themselves of their selespeeds but those looking to buy would also realise an increase in the number of potential cars to buy, knowing or comforted by the fact that the selespeed liability is somewhat diminished.
Having watched a 2004 147GTA (111,000kms) Selespeed sell for 9,000 over the w/end. I wonder if that was a good buy or another can of worms.
In the used Alfa market there are certainly manuals on offer but there's a shitload of selespeeds too and although the buyer (me) may have found a colour combination or spec level and engine I like, only to didscover it's a selespeed ..... NEXT !
I won't even give them a second thought.
It's all very well to say it's too costly to convert, too prohibitive in view of the availability of manual variants.
For mine, it would be equally valid to say it's too costly to contemplate a selespeed,in view of the availability of manual variants.
Both statements are nothing more than bald assertion without the numbers to back them up. Selespeed component replacement costs are well known (and prohibitive too)
I cannot be the first to consider 'what if it wasn't a selespeed anymore' without changing vehicles completely,it must have crossed the minds of at least some owners.
So I'm putting the notion out there, just how costly could it be?
Cheers,
Andy
i can see your point, I have a sele and a manual and they both are great fun to drive, the sele did at one stage play up and it pissed me off, i had quotes to fix it and i was looking at thousands, I spoke to a few people and found out who know their alfa stuff and they told me all the things that I need to check and how to check them, the fix cost me $300 and 30mins of my time, as time has gone by the fixes have become easier and more specific when at the start they had to replace the whole system and now its just specific parts, I would buy another sele but I would do my reasearch on it first, if it has had and sele work, hopefully it had and the sele caseng was changed.
Thanks Dehne,
Hundreds look better than thousands from my side of the ledger, somewhat reassuring but I'll still view the sele with some caution,for me it's a level of unnecessary complexity I can easily and comfortably do without.
Cheers,
Andy
Quote from: Gotta B Red on July 09, 2012, 09:40:39 AM
I understand the system has it's devotees, but I'm NOT one of them,
Hi Andy - interested to know why you're not a devotee? Are you a current/previous selespeed owner?
a few things here:
if the GTA over the w/e was running and in good nick, EPIC BUY OF THE CENTURY!
the GTA 6 speed sele is NOTHING like the std 5 speed. It is by all accounts a competent and reliable system, with a few parts shared with the f1 system in ferraris.
Sele to Manual conversion.
Not generally economically viable in Australia. While these have been done in the UK, parts are very cheap there and they have a healthy DIY attitude due to the fact that major repairs are worth more than their VAT & taxed cars...
While the sele is a synchro mesh design similar to a std manual, it is NOT a manual box. You cannot rip off the actuator and plumb in a std one. Different gearboxes. (evidence by external and internal slave differences) - add to the cost lifting a pedal box and fitting from a std manual and you're talking expensive... gearboxes here ain't cheap either. for every bargain sele, you can find an early 147 or 156 for not much more - so it makes not much sense...
JMO.
as to cost - you can go ahead and replace the entire actuator with a NEW not reco one from Ebspares UK for only around 800 quid. let's say 1500AUD all in. and that is indeed worst case senario. apart from that only the pump is left - and that's about 400 new from o/s or $200 for a local reco. By the way there are cheaper places if you search than EBspares...
again, that is meltdown scenario - and as mentioned here, you can repair and replace parts on these, fairly cheaply... i'd say fuse/relay, pump andactuator are by far the most replaced items, but even the electrovalves can be replaced! (around 80 quid each - there are three)
Hi Pasey25,
No I have never owned a selespeed nor am I likely to, to be fair I would not consider any other manufacturers products similar to selespeed either.
For mine it's another level/layer of complexity I don't understand and of marginal benefit to my style of driving. In fact it would reduce my driving pleasure significantly, constantly worrying when the transmission is likely to take that early lunch.
I'm just a Luddite a techno-antihero.
I long for the days of carbies,points and plugs, mechanical clutches and gearboxes it's just what I understand and can diagnose and fix myself. I've never minded getting my hands dirty,happy to accept grease under my fingernails .... that's what a nail brush is for!
For me hydraulics is an innovation, Fuel injection is too techie for me. Just try to buy any car these days that isn't fuel injected.
Black boxes,Logic Boards etc all run on smoke and the main problem being, when the smoke gets out, your stuffed, there's no way you can coax the smoke back into the box or circuit board it came from ..... game over.
In an earlier post, Topic "Typical Alfa Unreliability" I found an interesting device a friend of mine steered me to when he learned I was looking to buy an Alfa.
That's what friends are for ..... don't ya love 'em !
I may not have created the hyperlink properly so just cut and paste it into your browser it's good for a laugh and then some.
Cheers,
Andy (The Luddite)
There's a 156 Selespeed for sale locally with this in the description:
"There is a recent problem with the gear selection when in city mode. When stationary it sometimes drops down a gear."
Does anyone know what part of the Selespeed system this sounds like?
thats a strange description. When stationary the car should go into first gear after arriving at a stop.
perhaps they mean that it is dropping from 1st to neutral when stopping. I'm not sure what part of the system that would relate to though.
I found that if you are not getting pressure from the pump as long as you know your getting power to the pump nine times out of ten it is the carbon brushes sticking, which is a simple fix just give the pump a tap with a long extension bar and this frees up the brushes, if that doesn't work then the carbon brushes need replacing at a cost of seven pounds from the UK and a couple of hours of your time. Mechanics will not tell you this they will say the pump has failed at a cost of $1000. I know several people who replaced pumps only to find later that it was the brushes at fault. I hope this can save people some money as Alfas can be expensive to maintain but if you source your parts from the UK the money to be saved is phenomenal. All the best.
Quote from: cranberry on November 07, 2012, 10:27:08 AM
There's a 156 Selespeed for sale locally with this in the description:
"There is a recent problem with the gear selection when in city mode. When stationary it sometimes drops down a gear."
Does anyone know what part of the Selespeed system this sounds like?
From first to neutral? Sounds like a accumulator issue - if MES/alfadiag is giving you high pressure readings then likely you'll need a new one. From memory the fiat accumulator by itself is $400ish, plus costs for installation.
I know this is an old post - Actuators are serviceable, although a dealer would never tell you.
Wanksi touched on it earlier in the thread, you can replace the o-rings in the Electro valves for about $5 or the Electro Valves themselves... There are three: Clutch operation, Gear selection for even gears, and selection for odd gears. (EV0, EV1, EV2) It would be very rare to have to replace the whole thing.
In anycase, as long as the system is maintained, they are reliable. I've had mine for 8 years and all I've ever had to do is replace the EVO seal which operates the clutch, cost about $10 and took 30 minutes to replace it.
Other than that, a calibration twice a year and 189,000kms of reliable motoring :) Except for a cambelt destroying an engine.. New engine now.
The unreliable bits in these cars are the cam belts, suspension arms and the sway bar bushes.. not the selespeed! :D Even so, I adore my 156 :)
The timing belts, suspension bushes and anti roll bars are not unreliable, they just need replacing at a certain distance and klms, if you don't then the car will surely break an engine or the suspension will start to get noisy, but the sillyspeed is the most unreliable part of the modern Alfa Romeo cars, if only they had put in a proper automatic and not forced the sillyspeed on us as a substitute for an auto, Colin.
I respectfully disagree.. having to replace suspension arms every 3 years as I have had too is hopeless.
Timing belts need to be replaced every 3 years or 60,000kms - woeful. I've had a belt break on me too, only a few thousand over the limit.. So it's a major sore point :-[
None of this matters to though - I love the 156, I have two of them for a reason :)
I also love the Sele but I've only had good experiences with it, so has almost everyone i know who has one. And repairing them is not the bank breaking, house mortgaging misery that most are tricked into... thanks to forums like this and some indies - most repair jobs on the Sele should be very reasonable.
When my clutch seal went, a very well respected indie and a dealer were both absolutely certain that I needed to replace the Actuator (Cha Ching). Thanks to some google searching and a post on AlfaDriver.com - i replaced the EV0 seal, cost me $10 or something like that, I did the labour and the system is perfect. I don't blame people for hating it when they constantly read about these horror stories of actuators failing all the time..
Anyway, we all have different experiences.. I must admit, I prefer a proper manual too - i just don't think the sele is the devil its made out to be.. thats all. :)
I haven't driven one, but I hear the GTA sele system is bullet proof - so they eventually got it right! 8)
My top arms started to knock about 80k, then at about 100k the swaybar rubbers started to rattle, thats what happens, i wish that they would last forever, but they don't, but they are not unreliable and break.
The timing belts have to be replaced at 3 years or 50k under harsh, hot or dusty conditions, 60k under more favourable conditions, if you don't change the timing belts in a timely manner, then the belt will strip the teeth off or break, then your engine will be ruined, then you will moan about Alfa Romeo reliability, but its your own fault if you neglect it.
The Selespeed will let you down when you least expect it, on the freeway, when its raining, at the worst possible time, adding to the unreliabilty Alfa Romeo myth.
Some people have good reliability with their Selespeed and they really like it, initially was unreliable, but it got better as Alfa Romeo improved it over the years and the development led to Twin Clutch Transmissions, which is a good piece of engineering.
Alfa Romeo could never have sold the Selespeed in the U.S.A., as three faults with say a power train, means the consumer has to be supplied with a new car, Colin.
Yeah, my suspension started failing at about the same kms as yours.. except I do a lot of kms!! so 80,000kms is 3 years to me. I don't think that's good enough as I have owned other cars that do not have this problem - their boring too. so it balances out! haha
You're right about the belts.. i still think they their life span is hopeless.. The Busso is 5 years/120,000km - That is is very reasonable.
As far as the Sele goes - well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Everything fails over time.. to say the Sele will fail eventually is like saying grass is green.. The engine will also fail eventually, so will the brakes, tyres and to be honest - us as well.
Yes, I agree they are more prone to fail than a standard manual or a boring auto. But they have a huge fun factor, and as long as you properly maintain them, the risk of failure is very low and the cost of repair, if one bothers to research, is reasonable too.
I would say that unless your an enthusiast, it's probably not the right choice - perhaps a VW DSG is the best bet - hang on.. they're just as bad! ;D ;D
They are not the abomination you say they are. Just like many things, they require some knowledge and some TLC and they will give you spades of fun in return. :)
Unfortunately, they are not designed for the consumer that would ordinarily buy an Auto. As they were marketed as a type of 'auto', many "auto" oriented drivers bought them and hated them. I don't blame them. They are an acquired taste, and only work if you drive them as a manual.
I'll never forget my first Sele experience, i thought it was a joke of a car. But the next time I drove one, I made an effort to learn the technique and have loved them ever since. Even though I still prefer a good manual! :)
I am having my injectors and fuel pump refurbished Ford 4000. When it comes to refitting, is there any tips, tricks or precautions that will aid the refitting of these items.
Ok, ok, selespeed can have the odd issue.....
That is one major accident right there. I hate to think what happened to the vehicle's occupants. :o
so can anybody suggest where I should start looking for a set of O-Rings to reco the clutch electro-valve on a 147 GTA? I've been told to be careful as they are different from the normal 147 sele part
old saying, man with selespeed gearbox will surly go mad ! :)
Quote from: zippytheclown on August 14, 2015, 04:19:01 PM
so can anybody suggest where I should start looking for a set of O-Rings to reco the clutch electro-valve on a 147 GTA? I've been told to be careful as they are different from the normal 147 sele part
You will find a pile of confusing info out there on the O Ring types and sizes used in the actuator solenoids. I ended up buying a set of 1.2 and 1.5mm O rings in graduated sizes from 10mm through 13.5mm and then matched them when I pulled the solenoids out. I got them from the O Ring store in the US and used the high temp Viton types. It was cheap to buy all the sizes and they delivered promptly. I couldn't find an AU based store.
While doing the O Rings I'd suggest swapping out the Magneti Marelli PF2C position sensors too (particularly the clutch) as they are a wear item and will cause most of the shifting issues if they are getting tired. And from experience, DO NOT put in non-genuine ones. Did that, had to swap them again soon after. I got mine from an online bike parts store in the UK as this sensor is primarily used in throttle position sensor applications.
Pat
What an amazing list of Selespeed challenges many among us have experienced, certainly has this new 2005 GT 2 litre Selespeed owner just a little concerned, however, the positive could be the following. Two of our club members race the 2 Litre Selespeed 156 in our new Super Sprint category, Formula 98 with a great deal of success, drive them to Mallala, sprint, then drive them home. This little black duck can only hope his GT will be the same when he competes in Formula 98 Mallala July 16. Consider this, In 2005 19155 GT were sold, 80% were Selespeed, surely not all those 15324 have been an expensive lemon. However, before our GT turns a wheel in anger at Mallala the GT is currently being given a full check and service at Eurosport Automotive. They tell me Selespeed works a lot better when the Alfa is driven hard n fast, hopefully that is correct, will keep you posted.
Selespeed update: Well after a little over two years of circuit sprinting at Mallala and the Bend it's all good news with only one wee hiccup along the way. Track performance of the Selespeed could not be faulted, after all, that's why Alfa Romeo designed it for Ferrari. The only hiccup we have experienced is that dam selespeed warning light coming on, mostly within half an hour of leaving the race circuit, halfway home. No problem changing gears. Pullover, turn off the engine, whistle Dixy for a moment or three, fire up the engine, warning light out and we are on our way. Have just discovered our accumulator may not be holding the full 50psi of pressure but still ok to make gear changes but of course when the pressure drops it activates the selespeed warning light. Do I still love racing with selespeed, sure do, cannot change gears that quick in a manual g/box.