Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 932 Series (156, GTV, Spider, 147, GT, and 166) => Topic started by: CitroŽnbender on October 10, 2021, 02:30:06 AM

Title: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 10, 2021, 02:30:06 AM
My 2017 ďrevivalĒ has been mostly behaving since then - last I required help was early 2018 from memory. 25000km have been added to it. Recent failures included both front strut tops collapsing (KYB brand, and I didnít studiously enough line up the top mount bracket with the fork, time and the B6s did the rest) and the lower transverse engine mount centre bolt (randomly?) dropped out, not a nice limp home! The four year old battery still tests within spec on CCA - amazing but true.

In the middle of a mild, sunny afternoon last week, the car suddenly unlocked itself, put the hazards on, and refused to stay locked with either key or remote. It still starts and drives but in a degraded manual mode. When the engine is running the high beams are on, the lighting stalk is inoperative, there are fictitious start-up error messages for brake fluid, all doors/hatch open. When I shut it down the left sidelight remains on.

As the indicators donít work, itís not really practical to drive, so Iím keen to sort it. The fault is odd, as though a ground has lifted, I have not checked integrity of C15 yet. I have checked inside the hazards/fogs/locking control panel and itís clean/undamaged. Inside of the car seems dry, except for the aftermarket Bluetooth it is unmodified. The only way I can lock the car is by using the remote and quickly taking off the negative terminal before it unlocks again.

Bazz - have you ever run into a fault like this?
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 10, 2021, 08:31:04 AM
Nope.

Exorcism ?

Check the fuses on the battery fuse box, especially fusible links, then check all the connections to the Body ECU.

Have you run diagnostics on it yet?
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 10, 2021, 09:38:48 AM
Nope.

Exorcism ?

Check the fuses on the battery fuse box, especially fusible links, then check all the connections to the Body ECU.

Have you run diagnostics on it yet?
Thanks Bazz,

Iíll run MES over it today, and double check the fuse plate. Itís encouraging that you havenít encountered this.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 10, 2021, 07:35:40 PM
The battery fuse plate is all good, C15 earth is sound, all connections to the body computer seem correctly engaged and latched.

On MES, most modules are clean or low concern. Instrument cluster no faults, so we can probably exclude it from considerations. Driverís door and rear doors modules, are free of stored faults. It says no need for a Proxi alignment:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ppjdWJtz/C97-AB124-6929-43-B3-90-C2-4-BAB085-AEB52.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppjdWJtz)

Engine and gearbox appear - from my experience - to have just the usual faults:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k2dgBRnZ/325-E67-E5-DB1-F-4705-A411-6-D2-D1-FFA5343.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2dgBRnZ) (https://i.postimg.cc/F18RXnwh/53-E39-A2-E-FF37-48-D0-BC28-98924154-C60-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F18RXnwh)

Iíve included a few Key On, Engine Off parameters:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xJq0WKRk/9-FC94980-700-D-4-DC0-99-B0-5-E136-E7-CD300.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJq0WKRk)

Finally, the recurrent fault logs from the body computer. When you clear the faults (they will all clear, albeit briefly) then cycle the ignition, this is what you get:

(https://i.postimg.cc/xqcC7Sxs/2-E679806-2-BBF-4870-8-B80-AE6-C8-D11-EEFA.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqcC7Sxs)

When you remote lock the doors and it ďbouncesĒ then re-lock and quickly disconnect the battery, these are the extra faults logged.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8FZpKyhQ/64801-A77-BD43-45-F6-93-F8-6-C3-A219641-A7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FZpKyhQ)



Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 10, 2021, 09:50:31 PM
I'd say you had a blown fuse somewhere.

Check fuses at the fuses box in front of the body ECU as well as the fuse box in the luggage compartment.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 10, 2021, 11:24:52 PM
Ta, that was probably my next mission (double check fusing), but Iím unaware of any fuses in the boot.

Other things I thought of - a breaking down combination switch on the lighting side, or a fault in the ignition switch.

The other wildcard that may have caused damage is from late 2016 when I hadnít tightened down the earth eyelet near the ECU and it carried enough current to key on but not to crank or start. My thought being, this may have stressed another earth infeed to the body computer.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 11, 2021, 01:02:06 AM
Sorry, was trying to answer two different issues on two different forums at the same time. Should read - main fuse box in front of battery. My bad.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 11, 2021, 06:41:21 PM
All fuses confirmed good, including the hidden set. I have to correct one detail in my first post on the problem, the left rear (tail) light comes on in sync with the left front.

I disconnected the headlight plug and the rear light remained lit - so itís not pulling a ground through the front light. I removed and checked the front right park globe - itís good.

Disconnecting the lighting switch unit makes no difference, nor does disconnecting the ignition switch. Thereís no sign of repair or abuse in the wiring.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 11, 2021, 07:14:46 PM
Pull the tacho, smell
Better yet, open it up and have a squiz at the board inside

(Itís not hard to get out)
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 11, 2021, 07:38:54 PM
Why the tachometer? Iím curious.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 11, 2021, 07:44:40 PM
I know what Craig is getting at, give it a go and see, only takes a few minutes.

However, the info about the front & rear lights is bit of a giveaway. I am assuming you mean both the left front & rear lights come on together whether they are selected or not?

If so I suspect you will have a problem with the Body ECU, take it out (It's the grey box mounted to the back of the under dash fuse box) and carefully open it up and see if you have any corrosion, moisture ingress or other obvious errors (burnt track, fused components).

The issue of the rear light coming on is a known error, usually caused by the failure of the corresponding Light Driver Chip. As you also have a host of other errors logged, all associated with the Body ECU, I'd say it's a pretty good candidate.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 11, 2021, 07:49:07 PM
Thanks. Iíll have a crack in the morning, when itís both light and hopefully dry.

Yes, the lights come on without being selected.

Iím particularly baffled by this starting on a dry day when the car hadnít been used for maybe 36-48 hours.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 13, 2021, 06:17:40 PM
I popped the cluster out, do you mean to also remove the needles, dial faces, then the structure from the plastic back cover also? There is no sign of burning, no odd electrical smell.

Inside M1, I found this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/yDqgcBsm/7-AFCA2-F0-A2-D1-48-C2-92-AB-73-CAA807-C1-FD.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDqgcBsm) (https://i.postimg.cc/pmD9B7Lg/1469-F9-DB-4-C46-41-D2-9340-905-ABFD931-E8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmD9B7Lg)

Looks like pooled water damage (oxides formed). Iím half inclined to brush it clean and see if it goes again. Any hints on the semiconductor ID - the top has two sets of letters: BE and QB (or is it CB, if itís a transistor)?

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 13, 2021, 08:10:16 PM
Well at least you found the issue. It's a common problem.

Give it all a good clean with Isopropyl Alcohol and see how you go. (Available at any electronics store, Jaycar ect)
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 14, 2021, 03:04:31 PM
Unfortunately, despite the thorough cleaning, no change to faults recorded prior.

Itís perplexing because the fault is in the ďmiddleĒ of the command chain. Itís seeing most inputs, and most outputs can be commanded by actuator tests.

I watched a video or two by an English chap called Leon Stacey, he - with similar faults in a 147 Sele - transplanted three ICs from his faulty module to a donor and resolved the issue without loss of vehicle identity.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 14, 2021, 03:20:08 PM
Just grab another selespeed dash from a wreck and try it out, there are literally squillions of dead 147 selespeed out thereÖ.. although some people do like to hoard them ( you know who you are :) )



Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 14, 2021, 03:30:34 PM
Are you saying the CAN is daisy-chained and the fault lies in the dash?
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 14, 2021, 03:50:22 PM
Just grab another selespeed dash from a wreck and try it out, there are literally squillions of dead 147 selespeed out there
The Body ECU is one of the Coded parts and contains the Immobilizer circuit, to replace it you have to replace the following -

Body ECU
Engine ECU
Immobilizer Chip in the key

They are a "Matched Set".

Also I recommend  you get a set from a car with the same number of doors.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 14, 2021, 04:27:05 PM
Is the body ecu in the dash?

My suggestion was just to try out a new dash, should fly without any coding /cheap
If the problem goes away, then heís good

If not, then you know.. what itís not.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 14, 2021, 04:37:39 PM
The body computer is clipped to the back of the under dash fuse/relay panel.

I forgot to add, I have the 147 portion of eLearn, and am using it for schematics.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 14, 2021, 05:22:56 PM
I think Craig is referring to the instrument cluster when he says "Dash".

I think we have concluded that as the Body ECU circuit board was water damaged that it is the most likely cause of the issues.

I would also suggest that when you replace the Body ECU you of course replace the attached fuse box, as if there is water ingress to the Body ECU, you can be sure the fuse box is contaminated as well.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 14, 2021, 05:40:38 PM
My mistake, I thought the images were the instrument cluster
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2021, 02:56:45 AM
Iíve excavated my spare electronic set, before I launch into this - is the Selespeed control unit hard coded or will it pair happily with any replacement?

The main reason I was thinking to leave this part alone was the assumption that all unique data from EOL calibration would be preserved in it. I realise it would have a logged mileage mismatch with a replacement set of the other elements.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 09:45:20 AM
No, no need to touch the Selespeed ECU.

Just the following -

Body ECU
Engine ECU
Immob Chip in the Key
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2021, 10:34:49 AM
Thanks again - just concerned about what happens with the displayed mileage. Isnít it logged in the cluster as well?

The chassis mileage is around 225K, my spare/test set is around 125K. Iíd rather not accidentally overwrite either.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 02:05:31 PM
The mileage is stored in the Body ECU (even though you use the Dashboard Tab in MES to re-write the mileage).

Just put the old Body ECU back together & install it, take note of the mileage and use that to re-write the mileage in the new unit.
Just be aware, you can only ever INCREASE the mileage, you can't ever wind it down.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2021, 02:46:34 PM
Ta, itís running and functioning properly again. Iíve got to swap the ignition barrel tomorrow, thatís the easiest interim step. Itís good to have confirmation that the body harnesses are OK. Longer term Iíd prefer to repair the original computer or clone it to another unit. That one has three chips and remotes, the one just put in has a sole unit.

Where do I apply for the confidential code these days?
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 05:15:15 PM
Why are you swapping the ignition barrel?

You just open the donor key, take out the Key Blade, and transplant it to the old key. That way all the locks work, the car starts, and theoretically the remote locking will work too. (That's if it did in the donor car)
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 17, 2021, 08:31:44 PM
Could do that, I suppose.

What happens if you put a manual ECU/body computer set into a Sele car? Does it interact with the Selespeed module, or refuse to play?
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 17, 2021, 10:14:52 PM
Sorry, won't work properly.

The Engine ECU has to feed engine speed to the Selespeed ECU and there is no feature for that in a Manual ECU.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 18, 2021, 09:40:10 AM
Thatís a shame. I noted there were only two non-CAN wires between the ECU and Selespeed computer, was hoping it just to be an absence of physical connection on the manual configuration. The computer set I put in yesterday is destined for a manual-Sele conversion (yes, really ::)) - so Iíll have a manual kit.

Have been looking harder at the faults and feel itís an input signal conditioning problem. Doesnít mean I think itís a simple fix, the drivers have proven OK, but the short-to-ground input triggers are not being presented to the circuit as expected. Would be lovely to know where to break out the circuit and what to look for.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 18, 2021, 11:11:59 AM
Thatís a shame. I noted there were only two non-CAN wires between the ECU and Selespeed computer, was hoping it just to be an absence of physical connection on the manual configuration. The computer set I put in yesterday is destined for a manual-Sele conversion (yes, really ::)) - so Iíll have a manual kit.

Have been looking harder at the faults and feel itís an input signal conditioning problem. Doesnít mean I think itís a simple fix, the drivers have proven OK, but the short-to-ground input triggers are not being presented to the circuit as expected. Would be lovely to know where to break out the circuit and what to look for.

I gather you are referring to the faulty water damaged unit, and you are trying to repair it?

If so I would't ever try, as I think you will find the circuit board is a Multi-Layered type and the water damage will go in between the layers, damaging/shorting connections/tracks within the board itself.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 19, 2021, 03:14:31 PM
Now itís road tested, the other part of my question still remains - who to see, for the ďconfidential access codeĒ? I obtained the last one through Andrew Palumbo, obviously that isnít an option now.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: Craig_m67 on October 19, 2021, 03:52:47 PM
Now itís road tested, the other part of my question still remains - who to see, for the ďconfidential access codeĒ? I obtained the last one through Andrew Palumbo, obviously that isnít an option now.

Are there no dealers in Aust. now?

Email a dealer in the UK, theyíre very helpful.  There was an Alfa dealer in Parsons Green, London who were great, let Mr Finn literally dribble all over the 8C when it was first released and even sent me spares for Sooty to Aust. after we moved back.


Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: bazzbazz on October 19, 2021, 04:36:13 PM
You should be able to get the "Electronic Code" from any Alfa Dealership in Australia.

You'll need proof of ownership & ID, and you must give the Vin Number of the car that the Body/Eng Ecu came from, not the one they're going into. And they will usually charge a fee . . . of course.

Overseas dealerships should not give it to you, as they have no way of recognizing your ownership details.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 24, 2021, 07:04:40 PM
Another niggle, eLearn is unhelpful.

Sunroof, first time I went to use it this season - nothing.  >:(

I ran the actuator test on MES and it implied all was working. No fault codes logged. No sound at all from motor. No burnt smell or overheated look to unit or wires.

Any suggestions on this one? It looks like I can just fish the motor unit connector out with some perseverance, but the drive unit, hmmÖ

I should add, itís possible Iíve reinstalled the fuse in the wrong slot when removing them all to check in earlier stages of problems. Didnít take a photo first.

Edit: Power and earth confirmed OK. Thatís leading me to think the motor or controller is cactus.
Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins - 147 Sele
Post by: CitroŽnbender on October 31, 2021, 01:37:35 PM
Still no sunroof joy.

Tried another drive unit, no different. Tried the factory reset procedure, nothing. The white harness connector thatís just visible when you remove the sunroof control knob, looks perfect.

It would be odd, surely, to have a failed unit and then manage to buy another failed unit. Not impossible, but quite unlikely. Thereís seemingly no feedback in diagnostics for the controller - no status/position. Just authorisation to operate off the dial control or via global commands.

Any suggestions appreciated.