Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 932 Series (156, GTV, Spider, 147, GT, and 166) => Topic started by: ugame on January 09, 2019, 08:48:26 PM

Title: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: ugame on January 09, 2019, 08:48:26 PM
Hi guys,

My sons GTV lost all gear selection last night.

Ph2 2001 916 GTV TWIN SPARK

It's not stuck in any gear. You can't select any and you can move the gear stick around as if it weren't connected to anything, and you can hear a metallic clunk under it every so often.

Oddly, if I grab the cables from the gear box end, I can it would seem, move the gear stick via them a little.

Clutch operation "seems" normal.

Now.....I removed the gear boot today hoping to find a "lost plastic bush" as is common on the V6. Like this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=99&t=1275947

However either that's not the same year, or the V6 is not the same assembly?

What I'm presented with is a metal plate, removal of which from IN the car seems impossible. It doesn't look like the above AT ALL.

I assume we're looking at a "drop the exhaust" job, in which case, I'd be sending it to Leo.

but thought I'd ask on here any clues.

Additional....I have now also found this....
https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gtv-andamp-916-spider/83750-gtv-gear-linkage-hell.html

NEVER MIND lol.

On the back of that other thread I found, I too removed the intake pipe and found that there is now nothing holding the rod for "forward and back" gearbox movement onto the ball joint.

I relocated the rod loosly and now I can select gears so this is 100% the issue.

Not drivable like that but at least now I can just buy the part and diy hopefully.

Still means a trip to Leo / Daniel for the part. :D Be nice to catch up with them anyway.

EDIT: Fixed finally after getting the rod OUT of the car which requires both a 10mm open ended spanner, and a 13mm socket below on the far end :D See thread for details.
Once the rod is out, replacing the bush is just a vice grip and a rubber mallet away.

FINAL EDIT:
To help future noobs like myself, and save you HOURS on what is a 20 minute job......

Lost all gears?

Deduced that you're now missing a bushing off of the gearbox linkage ball joint at the gear box end in the engine bay?
See photos of the area and part in question, and if yours is the same as mine, proceed.....

Follow these EASY steps.

1) Order replacement bushing or collect one from your local Alfa guru. OEM part cost me $20 locally.

2) Raise and SECURE the front end of the car. I prefer ramps myself. You'll be learning ON the car while some other brave sucker lays underneath it. SECURE THE CAR 100%!!!!

3) Remove main intake hose in engine bay.

4) Remove the linkage rod in question by...(while I'm convinced this could be done IN car...WHY TRY? Trust me....dont bother)

4a) Leaning into engine bay, feel along the rod away from the gear box until you find where it meets it's ball joint. BELOW the end of the rod is a 10mm flat. Hold this with a 10mm open ended spanner. You'll be shoulder deep in the engine bay but it is reachable. While you hold this still.......

4b) Recruit a sucker to lay under the car and locate the 13mm nyloc nut below the end of the rod you are now holding. They should be able to reach this from under the car with a 13mm socket on an extender. Use an elbow joint for increased ease of access.

4c) Remove the rod once the 13mm nyloc is off.

5) Insert new bush into the gearbox end of the rod. Make sure you get it the correct way up or you'll cry. To insert, press bottom (open) end of the bush into the TOP (bevelled) end of the rod hole. Apply grease as needed and use a bench vice if you have access to one (2 minute job) or a G clamp (4 day job) or try the jubilee clamp method.
Note: The END of rod bends easy. You'll need to finish off the insertion out of the vice. Just use a screwdriver or something. Don't bash it with a rubber mallet. Again...trust me. Dont.

6) Re-insert the rod and attach the far end first using your 10mm spanner, and the sucker under the car with their 13mm socket. The nut is a nyloc. We added a little non permanent loctite. Not sure if that's recommended. We'll find out when we try to remove it again in the future I guess.

7) Apply some grease to the ball joint at the gearbox or the bottom of the new bush....place the gearbox end of the rod, with it's new bush in place, on the ball joint at the gearbox end. If you can in some way support the gearbox lever from below, I'm sure this would be recommended. You're about to whack it......

8 ) If you can PUSH the new bush and rod into place.....great. If not.....I used a large socket on the end of some long extender bars (4). The socket was placed on top of the new bush, and with the top of the last extender clear out of the engine bay above, I SMASHED the top with a couple of FIRM but not over the top whacks of a rubber mallet (best tool in the world). Check that the bush is now ON the ball joint. It's either on or it's not. There's no half way here.

9) Check gear selection of ALL gears and bingo.

Seriously an easy 20 minute job.....if you learn from my 4 day long mistakes.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 10, 2019, 09:55:29 PM
ok so the missing part is the plastic bush that goes through the rod and onto a ball joint.

Got the bushing from Leo, who warned me it's not easy to push on.

So armed with some copper grease and a G clamp (clever heh?) my son and I began an hour long session of attacking it from above and under the car (via passenger wheel arch).

We can NOT get the bush in place.

Questions:

1) I assume the bush goes through the rod FIRST, and then the "assembled" rod goes onto the ball joint. Is this correct or arse about face?
2) Any tips for getting this fkr on? lol.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 11, 2019, 08:10:39 AM
This part?

https://www.sparesbox.com.au/part/superpro-front-gear-linkage-ball-socket-bush-kit-fits-alfa-romeo-fiat-spf3124k

I would press it into the link rod first, then making sure the ball top is smooth and both pieces lubed with compatible grease, either give a sharp whack if you can get a direct shot, or find something to pry against.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: Vne165 on January 11, 2019, 10:31:44 AM
Did this recently on a 2002 Spider, with the engine out whilst sitting on a 20L drum in the engine bay. It was a challenge. Bush in the rod end first, little bit of grease to assist and a small G-clamp applying pressure. Used a couple of screwdrivers strategically used for additional leverage. Frustratingly, the bush would pop through the rod end time and time again. Perseverance got me there in the end, but I don't envy you doing this with the power unit in place. You need to get a good backup to push on the top of the bush and support the post from underneath. It took a fair bit of force. Good luck.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 11, 2019, 04:05:33 PM
This part?

https://www.sparesbox.com.au/part/superpro-front-gear-linkage-ball-socket-bush-kit-fits-alfa-romeo-fiat-spf3124k

I would press it into the link rod first, then making sure the ball top is smooth and both pieces lubed with compatible grease, either give a sharp whack if you can get a direct shot, or find something to pry against.

Yep that part.

Did this recently on a 2002 Spider, with the engine out whilst sitting on a 20L drum in the engine bay. It was a challenge. Bush in the rod end first, little bit of grease to assist and a small G-clamp applying pressure. Used a couple of screwdrivers strategically used for additional leverage. Frustratingly, the bush would pop through the rod end time and time again. Perseverance got me there in the end, but I don't envy you doing this with the power unit in place. You need to get a good backup to push on the top of the bush and support the post from underneath. It took a fair bit of force. Good luck.

Yep thanks guys.

Good to know I wasn't crazy with my small G clamp idea.

The pig is getting everything in place and then having room to turn the clamp.

Access from above is "ok" once you remove the intake pipe work so that's easy.

From below, you have pretty good access with car on ground and wheels full lock to the right.

I've now put the car on ramps to see if that improves access. Not really, and makes learning over from above harder.

I also thought "fk it. I'll remove the rod and use the vice in the workshop for "stage 1: bush into rod".
Started turning the little 13mm nut at the other end of the rod with 2 extensions and an elbow joint onto my socket. Perfect....until I realised that that little bugger will turn forever. All I'm doing is turning the ball above (i assume) and there's no way to stop it. So I can't even remove the F'n rod lol.

Front of car is in the sun now so I'll back off and ponder the problem some more until later.

Tempted to next "tape" the bush to the G clamp, to allow me to actually get it in place and turn maybe.

"It's ok boy. It's just this 1 bush. Easy fix."

yeah....right lol
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: poohbah on January 11, 2019, 04:46:10 PM
So given your latest trouble with the 13mm nut, no point in buying a replacement rod instead with bush already inserted?

blog.ebspares.co.uk/916-ts-gearbox-link-rods/ (http://blog.ebspares.co.uk/916-ts-gearbox-link-rods/)
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 11, 2019, 06:36:12 PM
So given your latest trouble with the 13mm nut, no point in buying a replacement rod instead with bush already inserted?

blog.ebspares.co.uk/916-ts-gearbox-link-rods/ (http://blog.ebspares.co.uk/916-ts-gearbox-link-rods/)

no idea at this point.

My thoughts are, I'd be in twice the pickle only with a more expensive part :D

Next job on my list....clean the cutters on the garage. Sounds like more fun than this 1 bush lol.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: bazzbazz on January 11, 2019, 06:59:31 PM
Do what we always did in the RAAF . . . . . "Use a bigger hammer!"

Unfortunately that usually was followed with the maxim -

"If it won't fit FORCE it, and if it breaks, eh, it needed replacing anyway."

(Yes, I know, I'm a big fricken help.)  8)
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 11, 2019, 09:14:25 PM
Do what we always did in the RAAF . . . . . "Use a bigger hammer!"

Unfortunately that usually was followed with the maxim -

"If it won't fit FORCE it, and if it breaks, eh, it needed replacing anyway."

(Yes, I know, I'm a big fricken help.)  8)

Love your input Bazz :D

but.....GOOD NEWS..........

......the garage gutters are clean.

plan tomorrow is..... secure the bush to the top of the rod with tape around both, and then secure and use the G clamp.

1 bush.

1.

FFS lol

I also just discussed plan B with my son.

"I can ring Leo and get a quote, and if I can get it into 3rd, I can get it into the city" lol
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 12, 2019, 08:46:11 PM
day 273:
After buying more G clamps. and testing the new bushing with a section of retic pipe, we indeed established that the TOP is smaller than the little lip at the bottom.

Maaaaaybe we'd been trying to force the wrong end first.

So with new hope, we went to lie down on and under the car....for another 3 hours.

We still could not get the Fn thing through the bloody hole.

We may have been close once. Who knows? Can't see a fkn thing.

What we did establish is that the bushing compresses, but it never popped through. It always found a way to escape to the side.

So I decided to see if putting it on the ball joint FIRST would help.

So with the help of a socket, some extender bars, and a rubber mallet, the bushing popped onto the ball joint with relative ease.

So....the bushing is ON the ball joint now.

......but.......

that doesn't really help. There's no way to get a G clamp over the rod and bushing AND everything it's now attached to.

I fear tomorrows first job will be.....get the bushing OFF of the ball joint.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: bonno on January 12, 2019, 09:22:55 PM
Hi Ugame
Try dropping the poly bush in hot boiling water for a minute or so. My thinking is that this might make it less rigid and pliable to aid assembly of rod, together with suitable lubricant of contact surface. Needs to be done pretty quickly as the bush rigidity will return on ambient tempt.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 13, 2019, 01:08:35 AM
Hi Ugame
Try dropping the poly bush in hot boiling water for a minute or so. My thinking is that this might make it less rigid and pliable to aid assembly of rod, together with suitable lubricant of contact surface. Needs to be done pretty quickly as the bush rigidity will return on ambient tempt.

Cheers mate. I had thought of that but not tried it yet. And yes would have to be VERY fast. As soon as it touches cold metal it'll be back down in temp. Takes AGES to line things up.

But hey, anything is worth a try lol.

Another note....I have the OEM replacement part. Wondering if an aftermarket replacement is....how do i say this....better?
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 13, 2019, 08:35:26 AM
Youíve tried a good quality jubilee clamp, rubber greased inside, on the bush to aid insertion?
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: jayarr on January 13, 2019, 08:58:48 AM
Any reason why you cant take the assembly out of the car, and try to insert the bush on the bench?
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 13, 2019, 11:38:59 AM
Youíve tried a good quality jubilee clamp, rubber greased inside, on the bush to aid insertion?
Not thought of using a jubilee clamp. I assume you meant to wrap it over and under both the rod and bush together, and then tighten? Sounds like a plan.
Yep we've been using wheel bearing grease but perhaps we could be more liberal with it. Trying to not make it too hard to hold the thing is a challange but with your jubilee clamp idea, it'll be held already. nice!

Any reason why you cant take the assembly out of the car, and try to insert the bush on the bench?

As mentioned in another post, i tried to remove the rod by undoing the nut at the other end, but it just turns and turns as is I assume, just turning the whole ball joint at that end :(
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 13, 2019, 12:15:39 PM
Just to confirm, it is part 13 within the first image in the link following?

http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10128.0
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 13, 2019, 02:44:33 PM
Just to confirm, it is part 13 within the first image in the link following?

http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=10128.0

Nope.

If I'm reading the diagram correctly, the "bush" isn't even shown as a separate part.
Looking at that, it's the end of rod #17 going down onto the ball joint atop SGR21219?

The assembly BELOW that ball joint including parts 18, 19, 20, and 21 looks right.

However my rod has a HOLE at that end, into which the bushing goes.

See photos.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 13, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
Gotcha. Still the same approach. In your case maybe try removing the entire rod to facilitate replacement of the bush?

There will be either flats on the opposing threaded end or an internal hex, this is to counterhold it while unscrewing the nyloc nut.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: ugame on January 13, 2019, 04:01:17 PM
Gotcha. Still the same approach. In your case maybe try removing the entire rod to facilitate replacement of the bush?

There will be either flats on the opposing threaded end or an internal hex, this is to counterhold it while unscrewing the nyloc nut.

Cheers mate. I did assume the same re a counter head but couldn't "feel" one. No bite on the top side with a 13mm open ended spanner, so perhaps it's smaller than the underside. Will try again, but I also see hope in your Jubilee clip suggestion too.

Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - STILL NEED HELP lol
Post by: Vne165 on January 13, 2019, 07:46:41 PM
Sorry if this is stating the bleeding obvious, and apologies for the hasty sketches.
Sketch "Bush 1" is what you're trying to get to.
Sketch "Bush 2" is how you have to apply force to achieve it. G-clamp is useful, but the whole thing tends to tip over and generally pop off.
Just a matter of patience and repeated trying I'm afraid. Carry on!

Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: ugame on January 13, 2019, 10:27:33 PM
Thanks to EVERYONE chiming in. It served as helpful tips but mostly moral support to just keep on keeping on lol.

Today my son was at the beach so I employed the wife to turn some spanners lol.

The FAR end of the rod is indeed held on with a 13mm nut and the joint can be held still by a 10mm open spanner.

So I held the spanner in place above with my arm shoulder deep in the engine bay, while my good wife turned the nut from below and BINGO, we liberated the rod.

I also re-removed the bush from the ball joint, and once in the workshop with my trusty vice (best random present from my inlaws EVER a few years back), the bush was in place. I mean....really first try. 2 min job FFS lol

Warning....when "finishing" bush into rod placement with a rubber mallet on the bench, it is VERY easy to BEND the end of the rod :/

It had a slight kink to begin with, so I've "corrected" it back to where I think it was, but it may be slightly more kinked now than it should be......ANYWAY........

Long story short, it's all back together and back in the car and a short 10 min test drive confirms all gears selectable.

It's been a while since I drove this car, and to me it feels slightly different......but maybe I'm comparing it to the Porsche which is tight as.

I wont mention the bent rod if you dont ;)

Pics or the rod in case it helps future noobs like myself, and also see if you can spot the "incentive" for getting the GTV fixed.......

OH lastly, even though the TOP of the bush is "smaller" than the bottom, it's the TOP of the ROD that is bevelled. Hence I chose to push the bush in bottom end first. Seemed to work.

Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 13, 2019, 11:13:37 PM
LOL, parking in your going car with a dead car...  :P

Glad itís fixed.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: Vne165 on January 14, 2019, 12:35:19 AM
Hooray! Well done.
Bloody Alfa's....


Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: ugame on January 14, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Hi all,

I've updated the FIRST post in this thread with an easy 9 step guide to help future noobs lol.

It's not worth even trying this "in car". It's 20 mins max once you know what you're doing.

I just really like threads that are "problem - solution"

Thanks again everyone for the moral support.
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: bazzbazz on January 14, 2019, 10:08:27 PM
Am I the only one here who ironically looks at this supposedly simple job and can't work out what all the fuss is about?   :)

I know and understand just how the simplest looking jobs are usually the biggest bastards of all, but lets be honest, if you looked at this page and weren't familiar with just how sick & twisted sense of humor God has, how could you not look at it and utter under your breath those infamous words . . . . . "just how hard can it be?"   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: CitroŽnbender on January 14, 2019, 10:25:37 PM
The rolling list of credits will sound like one of the those actors receiving a gong: "I'd like to thank my lovely wife, my wonderful son, my mechanic, my carport, m-m-m-my Sharona..."

Quote
Thanks again everyone for the moral support.
We'll try to balance it with some immoral support next time.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: 916 Ph2 TS no gears - FINALLY FIXED
Post by: ugame on January 15, 2019, 12:20:49 AM
Am I the only one here who ironically looks at this supposedly simple job and can't work out what all the fuss is about?   :)

I know and understand just how the simplest looking jobs are usually the biggest bastards of all, but lets be honest, if you looked at this page and weren't familiar with just how sick & twisted sense of humor God has, how could you not look at it and utter under your breath those infamous words . . . . . "just how hard can it be?"   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You're not wrong Bazz.

It's a very simple job made very complicated by the quest to "save time" by trying to do it "in car" while being unsure about if the approach being taken was even the correct one.

I'm sure I'm not the only noob out there. Most just search and don't post though. I'm too crazy to not ask a stupid question :D

Someone I'm sure will find this info of use in the future. They wont thank us because they wont be as honest as me :D

They're the kind of person who will google "coughing up blood. Should I see a doctor?" and keep searching until they find the answer that says "no no. It's normal" because that's what they want to find :D