Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

Technical => 105/115 Series (105 Coupe/Spider/Berlina) => Topic started by: Colin Byrne on December 15, 2018, 07:07:12 AM

Title: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on December 15, 2018, 07:07:12 AM
So we managed to get from Targa High country pretty much un scathed, (the old manís car, well thatís a different story) we also managed to retain our Crown with back to back wins!.
As weíre not doing Targa Tassie next year Iím having a bit of a break from the rally car and though Iíd start restoring my old 2L road car.  I have the car for a while now, it was my daily driver for a bit, itís very original and hasnít been interfered with much.  The plan is to do it up pretty standard, maybe a couple of Mod Cons hidden away, and probably throw a few go faster parts that have been shed by the other car, but itís definitely not going to be another rally car.!!!
I Ďll try and update via youtube


#Invalid YouTube Link#

https://youtu.be/66qW1TOX_i0 (https://youtu.be/66qW1TOX_i0)
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: CitroŽnbender on December 16, 2018, 10:45:22 AM
Will you be able to resist temptation and avoid scope creep?  :)

Beaut smooth technique on the TIG; I'm a sufficiently bad welder to admire the abilities of those who do it so well.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on December 16, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Haha, probably not, the battle between good and evel rages on, i'll definitely need the support of the forum to stay away from the dark side!

One thing I that is keeping me up at night is the braking system, well the master cylinder side anyway.  I really can't stand the twin remote booster setup, I don't like remote boosters on principle, I think they look awful in the he engine bay, and the 5 billion brake lines running around the firewall are a totall mess.  I guess on a left hand drive it was much neater, so would be getting rid of them be real no-no on an otherwise original car?

Thanks for the welding comments, a lot of practice there welding spaceframs roll cages and extractors..... so many extractors
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: aggie57 on December 16, 2018, 03:51:37 PM
I guess the obvious question re. the brakes Colin is how to engineer a twin circuit system with the carbs right where the booster would go on a typical pedal box. Any ideas?
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: CitroŽnbender on December 16, 2018, 04:01:41 PM
A 147/156 type pedal box is surely one starting point, and not expensive or rare. Take the whole firewall plate as a headstart.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Craig_m67 on December 16, 2018, 07:24:40 PM
I guess the obvious question re. the brakes Colin is how to engineer a twin circuit system with the carbs right where the booster would go on a typical pedal box. Any ideas?

Could the pedal box, thick brake bar and booster from a 116 car be utilised somehow?
(Always looked like a bodge to me, but you might as well follow the factoryís development footsteps)
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: rowan_bris on December 17, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
It works - that is by far the most common conversion method used, it just doesn't look although neat!
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: aggie57 on December 17, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Yes, thatís the most common method per LHD to RHD conversions but I agree it looks and really is a bit of an average solution.

Iím thinking Colin with all his experience fabricating solutions for his rally car may have some still-secret thoughts on a more elegant approach.

Full disclosure as well, my also-Le Mans blue GTV is about to hit the paint shop and even though Iíve spent $ on some new boosters and have fabricated new pipes etc., I could be tempted by a more modern and better thought out alternative.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: CitroŽnbender on December 17, 2018, 06:20:30 PM
Any chance of a RHD firewall photo?
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: bonno on December 17, 2018, 07:22:09 PM
In regards to brake booster options, a remote mounted brake booster could be located underbody/boot. See attached diagram of simple brake circuit.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: aggie57 on December 17, 2018, 11:30:17 PM
For compliance and safety reasons you need a dual circuit master. Which is why we have two boosters in these cars, thereís nowhere to place a single booster upstream of the master like in most cars.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: LaStregaNera on December 20, 2018, 11:47:39 AM
Haha, probably not, the battle between good and evel rages on, i'll definitely need the support of the forum to stay away from the dark side!

One thing I that is keeping me up at night is the braking system, well the master cylinder side anyway.  I really can't stand the twin remote booster setup, I don't like remote boosters on principle, I think they look awful in the he engine bay, and the 5 billion brake lines running around the firewall are a totall mess.  I guess on a left hand drive it was much neater, so would be getting rid of them be real no-no on an otherwise original car?

Thanks for the welding comments, a lot of practice there welding spaceframs roll cages and extractors..... so many extractors

I designed an built a bracket and pushrod to use a more easily available tandem master (that happens to come in the right size for eliminating the boosters) in the stock position. I've been running my install for 6 years now, Sketchl is running one of my kits on his GTA rep. Tidies the engine bay up very nicely, gives excellent pedal feel with the 2l brakes I'm running. I think Pancho *might* get his GTV with this setup on it on the road in 2019, and looking at putting one into Derek's Giulia Super in the next couple of months...
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Craig_m67 on December 20, 2018, 01:50:10 PM
Haha, probably not, the battle between good and evel rages on, i'll definitely need the support of the forum to stay away from the dark side!

One thing I that is keeping me up at night is the braking system, well the master cylinder side anyway.  I really can't stand the twin remote booster setup, I don't like remote boosters on principle, I think they look awful in the he engine bay, and the 5 billion brake lines running around the firewall are a totall mess.  I guess on a left hand drive it was much neater, so would be getting rid of them be real no-no on an otherwise original car?

Thanks for the welding comments, a lot of practice there welding spaceframs roll cages and extractors..... so many extractors

I designed an built a bracket and pushrod to use a more easily available tandem master (that happens to come in the right size for eliminating the boosters) in the stock position. I've been running my install for 6 years now, Sketchl is running one of my kits on his GTA rep. Tidies the engine bay up very nicely, gives excellent pedal feel with the 2l brakes I'm running. I think Pancho *might* get his GTV with this setup on it on the road in 2019, and looking at putting one into Derek's Giulia Super in the next couple of months...

Talk to me.. pics, details - Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: LaStregaNera on December 20, 2018, 02:04:29 PM
This is a pic from before I had the custom pushrod ends made, they're now a zinc plated piece that seals the master cylinder boot. The crappy spring is no longer there, and a pedal stop that mirrors the clutch pedal stop on the cable clutch cars is now used. Really must shoot some updated photos.
There's a built in circuit failure switch, I don't have a light on the dash to connect it to, but the dual circuit cars did I believe (incidentally, the shuttle valve that triggers the switch can cause problems when bleeding the system up from dry - if you make full pressure in one circuit with air in the other it will lock over and prevent the empty circuit from being bled up).
Twin reservoirs in the back corner of the engine bay was what I wound up with.
I'm currently trying to find the time to rework the design as a CNC'd alloy mounting piece rather than the laser cut and tig welded bracket that the first batch was done as. I've also been trying to find a LHD pedal box/master mounting to investigate fitment to LHD single circuit cars.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: aggie57 on December 20, 2018, 04:34:09 PM
This is a pic from before I had the custom pushrod ends made, they're now a zinc plated piece that seals the master cylinder boot. The crappy spring is no longer there, and a pedal stop that mirrors the clutch pedal stop on the cable clutch cars is now used. Really must shoot some updated photos.
There's a built in circuit failure switch, I don't have a light on the dash to connect it to, but the dual circuit cars did I believe (incidentally, the shuttle valve that triggers the switch can cause problems when bleeding the system up from dry - if you make full pressure in one circuit with air in the other it will lock over and prevent the empty circuit from being bled up).
Twin reservoirs in the back corner of the engine bay was what I wound up with.
I'm currently trying to find the time to rework the design as a CNC'd alloy mounting piece rather than the laser cut and tig welded bracket that the first batch was done as. I've also been trying to find a LHD pedal box/master mounting to investigate fitment to LHD single circuit cars.

Definitely interested!  From the pictures it looks like the master bolts up to the standard holes and uses the standard pedals?  With the bracket you designed? 
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: LaStregaNera on December 20, 2018, 04:48:41 PM
Definitely interested!  From the pictures it looks like the master bolts up to the standard holes and uses the standard pedals?  With the bracket you designed?
It does exactly that. I came up with the solution because I was sick of rebuilding the remote booster, and didn't like the Alfaholics solution for 2 reasons - how far it hung off the rail, and the Alfaholics setup, when used with factory calipers and no booster, doesn't use off the shelf cylinders - because they're in parrallel rather than tandem they are sleeved down for the job. This uses an off the shelf 19mm ATE master (which is available as a 22mm for use with larger calipers)...
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Craig_m67 on December 20, 2018, 06:38:13 PM
Sounds good to me, Iím unlikely to miss the boosters (as I donít think Iíve ever felt them work).  :P
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on December 22, 2018, 04:56:13 PM
Thanks, yea done plenty of tandem MC conversions in previous cars.  Agree that the alfaholics box is way too offset for any decent rigidity.  To alleviate this  on the rally car I pretty much ran a second chassis rail down the outside of the car so both the master cylinder mount and the brake pedal pivot is in double sheer.  This also allowed me to run the master cylinder push rod without any offset, another less than optimal design of the AH box IMO.

also agree that with a good breaking system and correctly sized mc pistons you don't actually need the boosters.  So thinking for this build a good twin MC system with no booster but leave all the booster brackets ect so all can be converted back to standard?
   
New video in the pipeline small break down at the beach than back into it!
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: aggie57 on December 23, 2018, 07:22:15 AM
Thanks, yea done plenty of tandem MC conversions in previous cars.  Agree that the alfaholics box is way too offset for any decent rigidity.  To alleviate this  on the rally car I pretty much ran a second chassis rail down the outside of the car so both the master cylinder mount and the brake pedal pivot is in double sheer.  This also allowed me to run the master cylinder push rod without any offset, another less than optimal design of the AH box IMO.

also agree that with a good breaking system and correctly sized mc pistons you don't actually need the boosters.  So thinking for this build a good twin MC system with no booster but leave all the booster brackets ect so all can be converted back to standard?
   
New video in the pipeline small break down at the beach than back into it!

That's what I was thinking too Colin, i.e. leave the brackets etc. in place.  My car is slowly edging to the paint booth, it should be resplendent in nice new AR348 in the New Year:

Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on December 27, 2018, 11:06:41 AM
new video

after a lot of welding and grinding The boot saga finally ends

on to the floor next....

https://youtu.be/z7SwDj68pTA (https://youtu.be/z7SwDj68pTA)
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on January 04, 2019, 09:20:56 PM
another installment

https://youtu.be/peU0cxts-K8 (https://youtu.be/peU0cxts-K8)

Started on the main floor of the car last week, think its the worst part of the car.  Made up a new front passenger floor pan and very happy with the result!
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Neil Choi on January 05, 2019, 07:44:57 AM
Good stuff Colin.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: sketchl on January 11, 2019, 08:01:25 PM
Great DYI resto as usual Colin. Your vids are bloody entertaining and informative and you should also post on the AlfaBB forum as it would inspire a lot more Alfisti globally.

As for the braking upgrade, I can vouch 100% for LaStregaNera setup as it works great on my 105 (note that itís not a GTA rep.....LOL)

Looking forward to the updates.
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: LaStregaNera on January 22, 2019, 11:46:54 AM
As for the braking upgrade, I can vouch 100% for LaStregaNera setup as it works great on my 105 (note that itís not a GTA rep.....LOL)
Cheers! Sorry - hotrod 105 GT :)
Title: Re: 105 restoration - definitely not a rally car
Post by: Colin Byrne on February 01, 2019, 05:13:54 AM
New Vid
https://youtu.be/WRbmhrf6J88 (https://youtu.be/WRbmhrf6J88)

nearly finished the floor, which i think is the worst of it (famous last words)